Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I made this remark elsewhere:

Cheers for proving the point. If you aren't prepared to even consider changing your point of view based on the available evidence that's your problem.

Your remark suggests a profound lack of confidence. If there's so little confidence that 'you brexiteers' can't handle the scrutiny of the position that's a better argument for continuing to question it than I could ever make.

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On the flip side here's the Chancellor, changing his thoughts based on circumstances.

Naturally immediately seized on in the comments section by people desperate to claim conspiracy, Project Fear, etc.

Good to see one group, at least, happy to change position based on data.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The whole of the 'scare' predictions about business not investing or leaving the UK become null and void and would need to be reworked if the rate of Corporation Tax gets reduced to, say, 10%.

This is one mans analysis on Sterling.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Hadn't seen much of Ashoka Mody's stuff on this. Will have a look. Thanks.

On the corporation tax stuff, good point, no idea how the UK would do if we tried to become a 'tax haven'. I must admit I struggle to see how that'd coincide with rebalancing the economy.

I've seen a couple of approaches on using tax cuts to balance impact ranging from George Osborne's plans to the extreme ones from Madsen Pirie - 0% corporation tax, 0% capital gains tax, flat rate income tax after a tax free allowance of minimum wage.

I'm not sure if anyone's really crunched the numbers but will check that out. Be tricky to see how it could be revenue neutral without huge economic growth as a result.

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In other news the pro-remain Hilary Benn beat staunchly pro-Brexit Kate Hoey to chair the Commons select committee scrutinising exit from the EU 330-209. It was noted by Bloomberg and others that this is an outright majority of MPs.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37707700

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The EU comission is still an unelected, anti democratic bureaucracy so of course I'm not changing my point of view. Why would I? :confused:

I absolutely do have a problem with confidence in this matter. It was a bloody miracle that we managed to get a majority out vote and the remoaners are using every trick in the book to turn this ship around. There were massive forces working against brexit and there still are. Of course I'm worried. :(

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iirc, cutting tax usually results in a greater tax take for the govt because people and companies are happier to pay what they perceive to be a fair tax rate rather than using tax avoidance vehicles to dodge paying it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Don't be worried. Although the vote was close if it came to a Parliamentary decision to overturn it then I, as a Remoaner, would be with you in arguing that it shouldn't. There are a lot of Remain voters who think that too.

I still will object though to various parts of what Brexit would entail. I don't think think companies should collate lists of foreign workers, I don't think EU citizens here should leave, I think we should embrace the liberal type of Brexit envisioned by some rather than the nativist Brexit envision by others and I think we should have as good a deal as we can with Europe whilst restricting unskilled migration.

Actually think about it you may still be worried as it occurs to me I don't have that much sway over central government.....

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Remainers, Scots and Lib Dems want Theresa May to have ALL the power to invoke Article 50

A SHOCK new poll shows the vast majority of Scots and Liberal Democrats now want the final decision on invoking Article 50 to belong to Theresa May and not parliament, paving the way for a smooth Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/723...e-50-EU-Europe

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;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Really? They are appointed by elected representatives. You don't like your commissioner you vote out the people who put them in place.

I don't remember voting for the PM or the Chancellor. I certainly don't remember voting Boris Johnson in as Foreign Secretary. They were elected as MPs only and then appointed to their positions of power or elected by a selectorate that did not include most of us.

If the EU Commission is unelected and anti-democratic so are the holders of cabinet positions, especially those from the House of Lords.

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Laffer Curve.

Obviously once the rates miss the peak of the curve revenue drops.

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Ya. There were clearly no 'massive forces' working for Brexit and the Leave.EU campaign wasn't at all founded on anti-immigration rhetoric, much of it lies. Vote Leave, while better, was also immensely economical with the truth.

The remain campaign was a sloppy Project Fear with extensive hyperbole and some claims that were simply wrong, although as posted above Arron Banks' main criticism was that it was too factual. The leave campaign was largely blowing sunshine about a glorious future up the hindmost alongside Project BS and, now it's happened, the BS is unravelling. The BS peddlers who sold the public a vision of a pain-free Brexit then a dash to the stars, such as the Minister for Brexit, have been shown as either delusional or liars.

I've read a few people noting Brexiteers pleading persecution. Looks like they were right.

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Just as an afterthought given your concern about democracy: I'm sure you're hoping for the court case on Article 50 to decide that Parliament is sovereign in this regard, given you voted in the referendum to restore the sovereignty of Parliament, and our elected representatives will have a say. That would ensure the most voices throughout the nation are heard, especially given that the nature of our departure from the EU was in no way settled by the referendum itself.

It would be pretty grim, don't you think, if Brexit were served by a man and/or woman neither of whom were elected by the public to their positions, but were only elected to the Commons as MPs?

Trying to use Crown Prerogative based on centuries old common law dating back to when we were a full monarchy to bypass Parliament doesn't strike me as particularly democratic.

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The depressing part is that the PM didn't condemn the sentiment, just the wording. Usually such behaviour would raise widespread alarm bells but authoritarianism is fine as long as the aim coincides with what you want. Never mind that, inevitably, at some point it'll be used to push through something you don't. The government is supposed to try and bring people together and get them on board, instead government MPs are actively trying to shut down debate, ignoring reality and shunning 48%+ of the population while the PM looks the other way.

Strange times indeed.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Theresa May to tell EU leaders there will be no U-turn on Brexit

Theresa May will today tell other EU leaders to forget any notion that Britain will change its mind about Brexit, as she meets them all face-to-face for the first time.

The Prime Minister will use her first European Council summit to kill off any suggestions of a second referendum, after the idea of a dramatic rethink was floated by its President.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7370401.html

could do with a graph but i cant find someone else's work to copy and paste
but hey ho onwards and upwards .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Of course. To say anything else would be insanity at this stage. The ramifications politically would be enormous. Though I'd point out that what she said at the Tory conference and the position since don't really mesh, and that what we do may actually end up not being up to her, but Parliament.

If we end up with a bad deal and still go through with it even though it'll cost our economy and quality of life that to me is far more anti-British than continuing to make any arguments.

Article 50 will be served. The terms of negotiation and the decision on the final deal should at very least involve Parliament heavily, and possibly even all of us through a referendum, with the option to take the deal or to remain as we are.

Sorry if my use of citations and data bothers you. I appreciate evidencing opinions may seem novel, and that sharing the views of experts and those directly involved rather than heavily slanted editorials or outright lies from tabloid journalists with agendas could seem strange.

There's still over 2 years to go. Most of what's being said is posturing which, while it carries consequences, isn't the end game.

Onwards and upwards indeed, wherever that may lead. :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think at this time now everyone knows how we stand, then if we're going to do it, now would actually be a really good time to hit that button.

I suspect as time goes on, and uncertainties mount, we'll be less inclined to do it, especially as a result of that uncertainty mounting, the pound devalues further & more companies bail out.


I feel there's a real risk of now or never, which I expect the pro-remain guys are also secretly hoping for too, expect to see lots of 'delaying' type tactics.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I hope there aren't too many hoping for a never. They're going to be pretty disappointed. It can't be served right now due to the outstanding court case. Even if that court case and the inevitable appeal are successful it will still be served, just on Parliament's terms rather than the government's.

I'm not aware of many people who don't accept it's going to happen. Extend and pretend isn't going to work unless the extension is really, really long which isn't feasible.

The major collision point will come when negotiation is completed, at which point I would hope Parliament at very least will get a vote on whether to accept the terms or remain in, and ideally the entire country.

A referendum or Parliamentary decision, while it doesn't appeal to Theresa May's control freakery, would be far more palatable politically to her. If we get a good deal, awesome, off we go. If we get a bad deal and it's in the national interest to remain where we are, not so good.

Who knows, perhaps the EU will make some changes of its own. Stranger things have happened.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

When negotiation was concluded, if we wanted to remain in, we'd have to re-apply as we'd be out. That wouldn't be so good either, as we'd have lost all the things we'd already uniquely gained when we originally joined in the 70's

I feel reasonably sure at that juncture we'd be heavily punished by the EU if nothing else, then as a deterrent against others who may be considering it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

When on holiday in Cyprus most non political locals would also leave the EU if given the chance. (Expats and politicos would stay). This I have already mentioned.

Currently we are hosting students from Italy (older teens) and consistently they say that many in Italy would also like to leave. All have been from northern Italy and many have both parents working if this helps on demographics.

I don't think we are as alone as some would make out.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The EU's 'democratic' system that elected a president nobody wants

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:D

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Our economy and quality of life may well suffer for a while but it will rise again and then we'll have that and control over our affairs.