Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Three separate attacks on three different, identified vehicles who notified the IDF of their journey in advance.

One vehicle bombed might be seen generously as a mistake but three vehicles individually bombed looks intentional. Whether that's by a lone wolf or something bigger.

The aim has been achieved - the agency has stopped its operations and 240 tonnes of aid is returning to Cyprus. This is consistent with Israel preventing aid getting across the border to the extent that its greatest ally, the US, has had to build a temporary dock to bring aid into the country.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-what...rkers-13106653

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So essentially they did decide that the lives of multiple aid workers, in multiple strikes, was a price worth paying for an "armed man" who "might be a terrorist" who "might" be with them.

If they do that with aid workers (almost certain to include foreign nationals) you wonder what the price worth paying is in Palestinian lives in each mosque, church or hospital strike, never mind the general razing of civilian areas to the ground.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Grim as it is, that's the story the IDF would like us to believe.

I'd like to think it's all cock-up over conspiracy but there does seem to be an anti-aid pattern here, be it blocking check points and outlawing the UN agency. This seems a continuation of that policy.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The conspiracy mongers (and Hamas spokespeople) are out in force today.

I hear they attacked 5G cell towers as well.

or .... the simplest explanation is generally the right one.

The IDF screwed up, the idea they suddenly decided to target aid workers and piss off all their allies is right up there in la la land.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So, there's two theories:
1) The IDF think that seven overseas aid workers lives are worth expending to kill one terrorist, despite the international uproar.
2) The IDF think that seven overseas aid workers lives are worth expending if it means that food distribution is significantly slowed down, depsite the international uproar.

If you've had a chance to read much about the bombings of the three vehicles, you'll see that each was precision bombed.

I'm all for the cock-up theory and would love to hear what it is, but I don't think even the IDF are putting one forward. The first theory seems to be the one closest to the IDF's line, if the article Damien linked to is reliable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No, there are not "two" theories.
For starters, you just mentioned three in your post. :rolleyes:

The IDF have not said anything that I can find other than they will investigate.
Perhaps you missed that they are waging a war, and in wars, mistakes, sadly, get made.
Every mistake isnt a deliberate plot, if you have proof otherwise, feel free to inform us all (and the respective governments).

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Wonder where those straws came from, oh yes

9/10/23 Yoav Gallant defence minister speaking on behalf of the Israeli government said Israel will impose a complete seige on Gaza no electricity, food, water, no gas it's all closed

12/10/23 Israel Katz energy minister no water or trucks will enter until the abducted are released

1/2/24 Benny Ganz we can consider reducing the scope of supplies as part of a mechanism to free the hostages

It's not a conspiracy theory if they tell you that's what they are doing

27/2/24 Michael Fakhiri UN special rapporteur Israel is deliberately starving civilians and should be held accountablefor war crimes and genocide

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The term shooting at anything that moves seems to fit.

Damm the consequences

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Quite.

I missed the detail last night but when I got thinking about it “any armed man” is a target when the rule of law has broken down in Gaza and undoubtedly people will be carrying weapons to protect themselves and their families.

It doesn’t have to be a conspiracy theory for Israel to be condemned - there’s enough detail, and facts, in their own statements to do so. Being “at war” is a state Israel has absolutely chosen to put themselves in at this stage, against now universal calls to stop.

It doesn’t exempt them from their duties to protect civilians (including aid eorkers). The “mistake” was entirely avoidable if they simply gave more weight to the aid workers lives in their decision making. Allowing a single armed man, who may or may not be a terrorist, to flee is unlikely to impact significantly on the future security of Israel or its citizens. As it stands there’s no actual confirmation they hit this target regardless of whether he was a legitimate target or not.

Sadly, had these aid workers been from the far east or Africa we’d have seen little of the condemnation and none of the apology. It’d be business as usual for the self styled “most moral army in the world”.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As I said before, being very generous, one aid vehicle precision-bombed might be a mistake. But three aid vehicles targeted? Even if we uncritically accept Netanyahu's line of it being a mistake, I make that three mistakes and not one. And three mistakes in a demilitarised zone in which the aid workers let the IDF know of their route beforehand can't be explained away too easily.

Context is everything so let's look at some of that.

• Between the beginning of the war in October and March 20 at least 196 humanitarian workers had been killed in the occupied Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year, per Jamie McGoldrick, the UN’s humanitarian co-ordinator for the occupied territories.
• Our foreign secretary David Cameron requesting that Israel open its borders to allow aid in as the country was seen to be making it hard for aid to enter.
• The US, Israel's biggest ally, has snubbed Israel to build a pier to enable food deliveries to Gaza.

At best, the IDF places very little value on the lives of aid workers. At its worst, it's more deliberate. Neither's a good look and neither will contribute to long-term peace in the region.

If you're searching for conspiracy theorists, there's richer pickings on other threads on this Forum.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Seems a good fit, goes with the sniping of children. They hit the first vehicle and when the wounded were moved to a second vehicle, this was then hit. They then went on to hit the 3rd vehicle as they tried to escape. One or more of these vehicles were marked on their roof as Aid vehicles.

Haaretz is reporting (you may need to activate Google translate for this):

The IDF fired three times at the aid convoy, the target of the attack leaving it before it set off

More context, again from Haaretz:

Israeli Army Sources: Gaza Aid Workers Killed Because 'IDF Officers on the Ground Do What They Want'

This was not a mistake.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No, it’s got nothing to do with what I believe

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

He is, and undoubtedly will step down after the military action is concluded. I doubt very much it will be before.

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

Do you think the US army placed little value on the lives of British soldiers they mistakenly killed and injured in the numerous blue on blue attacks that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's a 'mistake' that happened because they have such little regard for where and whom they're targeting.

This was a previously designated safe route that they told the IDF they would be using and they had symbols on their cars. When they hit one and fled to the 2nd one they were hit again, those who survived were killed when their third and final car was also bombed.

This isn't a case of friendly fire. This is an organisation that did everything right, everything they were told to do, and was bombed by a control room that seemed to have no checks or restraints from just randomly firing at anything and anyone that moves.

It's not the first time aid workers have been killed either.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They’re in a war zone, their safety cannot be guaranteed.

If a highly trained and sophisticated military can shoot and kill their ally, another well trained and sophisticated military, what makes you think it couldn’t happen in Gaza.

If they mistakenly thought it was Hamas, they will mistakenly fire upon it.

It was a mistake, may be grossly negligent, but you have to go a long way to call it deliberate.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If you're buying uncritically into Netanyahu's mistake line, you at least need to do the maths.
It would be three mistakes not one.

It was classified as a deconflicted zone not a war zone.
https://www.ft.com/content/aa309a9c-...7-e40ba046776e

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The IDF’s rules of engagement are lax - recklessly so. I used to have to sit through and report on inquests, so many that the coroner’s description of an accident has remained with me to this day: ‘the unforeseen consequences of a deliberate act’. At some point, the consequences of the IDF’s lax RoI stop being unforseeable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel has reached a horrifying milestone:

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict

To be fair, "they’re in a war zone so their safety cannot be guaranteed" ...

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's horrific, any numbers of children killed, on both sides.

A very sad fact.

The israeli children were not in a war zone, and their safety couldn't be guaranteed either.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I wonder if that's shaped in part by having a large conscription element? Such soldiers may lack the experience and discipline of professional soldiers so the rules of engagement are made laxer to accommodate this.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No, not in the most moral army in the world

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Once is an accident, three times is targeted.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The numbers of children killed on “both sides” aren’t even comparable.

A small number have been killed by terrorists a much larger number have been systematically killed by a 21st century military which, should, be adhering to international laws.

As a thought experiment it’d be interesting to know what the difference between what Israel are doing now would compare to ethnic cleansing that maintains itself just on the right side of plausible deniability.

You couldn’t, as an example, carpet bomb the place.
You’d pretend there were terrorists everywhere, hiding underground, and claim these were surgical strikes.

You couldn’t ban aid agencies.
You’d make it difficult for them to operate. Tying up aid in bureaucracy, closing some roads and discourage aid workers by devaluing your own “guarantees” of safety by creating situations where aid workers were “collateral damaged”.

You couldn’t just close hospitals.
However by waiting until everyone seeks refuge there the pretence that there are terrorists underground there would allow you to hinder their ability to function. Something that’d have a disproportionate impact on the young, the old, those with long term health issues and pregnant women.

The differences are wafer thin from this vantage point.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yet to some they are and that is why they keep dying.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That's because they're parroting Netanyahu's lines without applying any critical thinking to what they're repeating. They've chosen a side like a football team and are supporting it regardless of the evidence. Hence adopting lines like:

• Yeah, but what about 7 October? and variations of this line to provide false equivalence.
• The three bombings a distance apart at different times in a demilitarised zone were just one unfortunate mistake in a war zone.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Three times is a targeted accident. If They thought the convoy contained Hamas fighters then they’ll blow them all up.

If in the fig of war they made a mistake then they made a mistake but if they fully knew that convoy had nothing but innocent aid workers in it and they fired on it, in full knowledge of that fact.

Then the soldiers involved should be arrested for murder.

I just struggle to think that would happen. Perhaps I just look to the best in people.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Very true, Andrew. There is also an element of those who are being killed are, in some way, not equivalent to those on the Israeli side. 10,000+ dead Gazan children in some way still do not balance the 50 or so Israelis (under 18) killed on 6th Oct.

Also, you know when things are are bad, when Nick Ferrari, from LBC, says it is now time to stopped sending UK weapons to Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not the “fog of war” if, as the Israeli line claims, there’s a single person on the ground who might have a weapon, might be a terrorist and might have got in a car.

It was an execution.

Israel simply rolled the dice once too often and it was white people in the car.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I wasn’t comparing them, looks like you are though. I don’t believe in a sliding scale of atrocity.

Nothing to see here, just accept it and move on, in fact you should budget for a small annual headcount of children that will be unfortunately killed by terrorists, your fault for being Zionists anyway

It’s not the fact it’s a military doing it, to add insult it’s a Zionist Jewish military, which makes it so much worse.

Otherwise I would have been on here remonstrating about the Saudi Military killing children and causing famine in Yemen, except I didn’t. We’re only bothered about this because Israel is doing it.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Like I say, I don’t put a sliding scale on atrocities, or assign a number to what is acceptable or not.

Seems you do though.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

As I say, I don’t assign a scale, seems you have though.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Everyone believes in a sliding scale of atrocity. It’s what sets apart events like the Holocaust from other acts of genocide or ethnic cleansing, Hiroshima or Nagasaki from day in day out events in small scale conflicts.

So many straw men you should ask Netanyahu if he wants them to man the border to prevent the next October 7.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Did I not, just say if guilty they should be arrested for murder?.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You put an important caveat:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You said the evils visited upon the Jews in the Holocaust as “irrelevant”, earlier in this thread.

So why would you use it to draw any distinction now?

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

Because it is an important caveat.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s irrelevant if you are using it as the sole barometer of whether something constitutes genocide or ethnic cleansing, or a basis for justifying Israeli actions today.

The very existence of the word Holocaust proves that the general population does have a sliding scale of atrocities, whether you do or do not.

It’s a caveat that justifies and excuses the killing of innocent aid workers for the flimsiest of reasons, at the lowest of confidence levels with no immediate risk to Israel or Israeli assets in the occupied territories.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not flimsy.

If they had incorrect intelligence given to them or had mistakenly observed the individuals or for whatever other reason they thought that convoy contained Hamas soldiers. Then they legitimately fired upon it.

No doubt an investigation will determine what happened.

But as long as they didn’t deliberately fire upon a target that they knew to be innocent aid workers, and there’s no evidence either way at the moment. Then as unfortunate as it is, at the moment, it is a tragic mistake. Or a failure in command and control, and/or negligence.

That needs to be investigated and prevented from happening in the future.

But to suggest IDF deliberately murdered those people is absolutely baseless, at this moment.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think you have made a good point here: the rationale was "if there was a chance of a Hamas operative being in the vehicles (spoiler alert: there wasn't), then kill them all". It is a rationale being applied to all of Gaza: if there is a chance Hamas maybe in a location then just kill everyone there.

The absence of basic humanity and morality is chilling. I do think this aid convoy massacre will prove a turning point. I suspect Sunak is under real pressure to stop sending bombs to Israel since to do so, is to aid & abet what is now playing out in Gaza.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel has been killing aid workers for decades and will be killing them for decades more. Only killing innocent Palestinians is a greater certainty from their military “tactics”.

The investigations into previous ones clearly done little to inform decision making to prevent this massacre, nor the massacre of women and children up and down the Gaza Strip under the guise of “targeting” Hamas.

The only interesting thing about this is the hole in the car roof that demonstrates the kind of precision weapons that Israel could use. Which is interesting when held against the rubble that remains of many buildings, including hospitals, where different ammunition with used with a callous disregard for the inevitable cost in innocent human lives.

Murder has a specific definition, so I don’t use that word in this case, however Israel absolutely permitted their deaths and deemed it a price worth paying until they saw the passports.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

For those who think these events are just "mistakes", watch this C4 News report:

At least 196 aid workers killed in Israel-Hamas war

This is all in line with the strategic goals of the Israeli war effort.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I wonder what was different about the first 189.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The IDF did not hold investigations into these 'accidental targetings' as their government couldn't complain. Not that the aid agencies would have much faith in the independence of such investigations.

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-ea...trike-12978800

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Did they know that? Were they told there was? Did they see something that made them think there was?


To a point, that is a legitimate approach.

If you make it known that to Hamas that if they use human shields you will not be dissuaded, perhaps they’ll stop using human shields.

from Hamas? It certainly is.

It changes nothing, and to think Sunak has any relevance is laughable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Was there evidence that there were innocent civilians in harms way when they took three attempts at eliminating the convoy for the sake of one person who might have been in there?

By December, Israel had dropped more bombs on Gaza than there are Hamas militants. Now it might just get that Israel aren't very good at this, however Occam's razor (and tens of thousands of dead and injured innocent women and children) would suggest it's not about the militants.

Israel aren't entitled to submit Gaza to unlimited human suffering for as long as they think Hamas might pose a threat. That has no basis in morality or international law.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You and most other Sunday afternoon Westerners with their luxury beliefs that don’t live in the region are only piping up because it’s Israel. If Egypt or Jordan were doing this you’d say absolutely sod-all.

I know for a fact don’t give a toss about Yemen and the deaths and famine caused by Saudi Arabia….because no Jews were involved in those deaths.

and if Egypt suddenly rolled into Israel, and was joined by Hezbollah, and Islamists from Jordan, that went on to invade Israel and massacre Jews and try to eradicate the Israeli state.

You’d probably celebrate it, with all your mates on a Sunday march in London.

Israel will do what they have to do, regardless of what anyone thinks and regardless of other opinions, because if they don’t. It will happen again, and again.

If you can’t see that, then I can’t help you anymore.

This is beyond appeasing america or other other allies, or the UN. America is a friend of Israel’s but Israel is not their puppy dog, and the US know this and will only go so far.

Israel will carry on until they are satisfied that they can stop. Not before.

This unfortunate incident will not change anything. It will be in the headlines for a few days, and will be forgotten as soon as the next incident occurs, or some other major thing happens globally.

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------

What if the intelligence said Hamas was definitely in there?

It is totally about wiping out Hamas

Israel are removing Hamas as a threat

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's not a luxury belief to think Palestinians have a right to die of starvation in their own land or be ethnically cleansed from it as some of Netanyahu's coalition partners have called for. To describe opposition human suffering of hundreds of thousands of people in such a glib manner says more about your opinion of Palestinians than mine of Israelis.

Your descent into the gutter to smear us all as anti-semitic is the last desperate haven for those defending the disgusting actions of the Israeli government. We see through you.

Israel may well continue for some time, eroding what little standing they have left and dragging America's moral authority down with them. I'll be right here condemning them, their lies, their deceit, their crimes, every step of the way.

This war might be good for the short term share prices in the military industrial complex but will do nothing for the security of Israel or those that enabled them in the long run.

The straw man of an Egyptian, or any other hypothetical invasion of Israel is irrelevant. However, to give it a little latitude - if they did so, systematically destroying synagogues, hospitals, destroying half the buildings in Israel and pushing two thirds of the population to the border as the only mechanism for ensuring the safety and security of their Palestinian cousins what would the difference be (besides their religion and the colour of their skin)? Would that be bad things happening in the "fog of war"? Nation states doing "what needed to be done" to secure the region?

Or, and I'd propose more likely, a straight up case of ethnic cleansing. The opposite view: Instead of stating the obvious it could cloud everything in opaque and military terms, viewing everything through a narrow prism of one single event, blaming one side and defending the other with total disregard for the lives lost and livelihoods destroyed in a revenge campagn. That's a Sunday afternoon luxury belief right there.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A rather interesting, thought provoking and somewhat harrowing read

https://apple.news/Av3q-Ix3bSbWHSelzZs75gQ

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It seems to have been.
https://news.sky.com/story/middle-ea...trike-12978800

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Opening new routes having emphatically executed aid workers in a safe zone merely days before is lip service.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I was thinking what fundamentals have changed in the war to facilitate increased aid routes being made available? None except the deaths of Western aid workers.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Good luck with that.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It seems that Israel is now reached official pariah state status. About time although it is a pity that the Israeli lobby holds such power in the US electoral process which will water down the effectiveness of this ruling. Money talks I guess. Expect howls of anguish from supporters of the apartheid state.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel


21% of Israel population is Arab


How many Jews live in the neighbouring states as a % of population?

I think you misunderstand the term.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If Netanyahu visits one of rhe 124 ICC countries then it's him who will be needing luck to avoid being arrested.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Unless I missed an update, they are "seeking arrest warrants", they dont actually have any.

Either way, I doubt hes planning on many trips atm, kinda busy with a war, apparently.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Had to announce it at this stage or as soon as the first arrest warrant was requested, the news would become public.

Many war leaders travel during a war to shore up support. Zelensky and Putin have left their countries for overseas trips since the recent invasion of Ukraine.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The difference being, Zelensky isn’t subject to a warrant, or even a request for one. Vlad, on the other hand, has an actual warrant out, along with his Children’s Commissioner, Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova, which means there are few places in the world it’s safe for him to go.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Being in a similar category to the Vlad as regards overseas travel is not a good thing.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Also warrants for the HAMAS leaders, you know just to give the impression of fairness, like there’s some kind of moral equivalence between HAMAS and Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Does the fact that Hamas killed a fraction of the people Israel did make them more moral in your eyes? Besides, their list of holiday destinations is somewhat limited due to their being proscribed as a terrorist organisation so this ruling has little impact on them.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Very amusing, I would assume if you have followed anything I have posted here, that I hold the opposite view.

Any arrest warrants should be for Hamas and Hamas alone.

Only by some, 8 nations + the EU.

Not even the UN classify them as terrorists…but you’d expect that from the UN, whose existence is a contradiction of terms and whose security council is a joke.

All these wars are stupid.. They should grow up and do something g00d!!

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://news.sky.com/story/ireland-a...state-13141083

Three countries to officially recognise Palestine as an independent state

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Unfortunately Land and Religion are the two main reasons for war.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2559257.html

Amazing. Being held hostage in “civilian” buildings………………

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, it’d be a flawed strategy to hide them under big neon illuminated arrows next to a sign saying “hostages here”.

Hundreds killed in the operation. Be interesting to see how many hostages got killed since the IDF have form for killing them waving white flags and shouting “don’t shoot”.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

True, I’m just concerned about the innocent Civilians that were holding them hostage…….I hope they’re ok.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m sure they appreciate your faux concern. Any other civilians you have sympathy for out of the 36,000 - the majority of whom women and children - slaughtered at the hands of Israel?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You need to switch your sarcasm radar on.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I'm amazed too they found any building to house them in given the large number of buildings erased to the ground.

I doubt there were any military buildings left to use if they wanted to.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They couldn’t have been held in a hospital then.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A story to watch in case anyone else follows suit.
https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-w...-plan-13150293

---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

Or a school
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world...d=BingNewsSerp

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Why would there be “military” buildings in a refugee camp.

As I said, I’m just hopeful non of the innocent civilians that were holding the hostages against their will in their non-military buildings for eight months were injured.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Somehow, I think you may being disingenuous in your purported sympathy for the dead and maimed children, as their active involvement in holding hostages is unlikely…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No idea, but then again I didn't mention a refugee camp.

With 36,000 Gazans killed by IDF operations since 7/10, I fear your hope may be ill placed.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://news.sky.com/story/dozens-of...agers-13215944

Bravo Israel, bravo.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Mossad don’t mess around.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

How do you identify a member of Hezbollah?

His trousers are on fire. :D

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You mean 'Great balls of Fire'

This is Action movie stuff!

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I would not be terribly surprised if this action was not a precursor to something bigger.

Israel have just disrupted Hezbollah’s 3C* Command Structure by destroying their communications, and killing/injuring those who actually command and control the Hezbollah forces.

Best time to attack the enemy is when they are in a confused state, with lack of overall command to co-ordinate response.

* Command, control, and communications (C3) systems are fundamental to all military operations, delivering the critical information necessary to plan, coordinate, and control forces and operations

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Videos are starting to appear on Xitter now - CCTV from marketplaces etc. it’s grim stuff. One moment it’s just a lot of apparently ordinary people going about their business and then suddenly one of them gets his balls blown off. Reports are now saying there were thousands of these booby-trapped pagers in circulation and hundreds of people are critically injured.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Up to 5000 pagers I heard this morning, that’s a lot of terrorists!

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They have managed to hit Hezbollah members in all areas of the organisation - administrative as well as fighters. Nobody was safe from this. Apart from the very real physical injuries, the psychological blow will be enormous.

It appears that the pagers were manufactured in Hungary under licence from a Taiwanese company. The brand owner in Taiwan claims to know nothing about it, which seems entirely plausible. The question is whether Mossad was running the entire production line in Budapest. I can’t imagine how they managed to booby trap so many of the devices, and ensure they only went into what was presumably a bulk purchase order, if they didn’t have pretty much unfettered access to the factory.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israeli govt is now a terrorist organisation

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

killing a ten year old girl wearing a pager is not warfare.... It's murder.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

We are going to be descending into all out war..I'm hoping that the British government are going to keep a very,very big distance from either side.
Mind there will be several other countries who will no doubt stir the pot for all their worth if they think they will gain influence.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Targeting a child certainly would be unlawful, by the ‘laws’ of war, such as they are. Targeting a member of an armed Iranian proxy militia, and killing a child in the effort, would probably not be. Like it or not, this is the world we live in and those are the complex web of international treaties that attempt to keep a lid on the worst expressions of human nature.

That’s not to minimise the tragedy or glorify the violence at all. But any attempt to understand what’s happening, and even to campaign for change, requires us to recognise the context in which it happens. Shouting ‘murder’ may feel morally satisfying but it won’t persuade any of the people who did this, or enabled it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Not likely, listening to that war criminal Blair to much.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

Israeli has been killing innocent people in Gaza for years, as long as America backs then they will continue to do so.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Hamas has been killing innocent people in Israel for years. As long as Iran backs them they will continue to do so.

:shrug:

What’s your point, caller?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think the point is there’s no outrage at hundreds/thousands of innocent people being injured. When Israel do it its justifiable collateral damage in the war against their enemy. When Hamas do it they’re evil terrorists

The pager explosions show a brutal disregard for the safety of non combatants

Appears there’s been more explosions as well

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

When you occupy a .country illegaly for thirty years, what you expect them to do.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Notwithstanding the ICJ’s legal opinion, Isreal does not occupy Gaza. It forcibly evicted the last Israeli settlers there in 2005. Even the ICJ admits its definition of ‘occupation’ hangs on the fact that Israel ‘could’ exercise control over the territory if it wished, not that it actually does so.

Regardless of the above, you can play chicken and egg with this all the way back to 1947 and even earlier. Arguments built on arbitrary dates (1967 being a popular one) are inherently bad faith.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No they just hold the entire population hostage by the ability to stop routine daily life in its tracks on a whim

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Everyone that had one of those pagers was either a member of or worked for a terrorist organization ( don’t know why a child would have one)

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------

What country did they occupy?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Ok occupied the gaza strip for thirty years and allowed israeli citizens to build villages. This is under is illegal under international law. As log ad the us backs them this will continue to continue.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It will continue as long as Hamas exist, it will end when Palestinians and neighboring Islamic nations accept Israel’s right to exist.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Isreal is not a country it is a state created after the second world war, with land taken of palestine.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You do know that the Rafah crossing into Egypt is routinely closed for up to half of any given year, yes?

---------- Post added at 17:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

Funny how the ‘river to the sea’ mob love international law right up to the point it becomes inconvenient.

Israel is a fully recognised member of the UN on precisely the same terms as the UK, France, Jordan, Egypt and whoever else. The distinction you’re attempting to draw here is meaningless.

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 17:01 ----------

Now Hezbollah’s walkie talkies are exploding.

Somehow the BBC’s Frank Gardner’s takeaway from this is that Israel has scored an own goal. Click below for what reads worryingly like 6 paragraphs of pure, anti-Israel copium:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyl...e9908c4b8#post

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Not saying it isn't, just a lot of people call it a country when it isn,t In your opinion.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

By any common understanding of the word ‘country’, Israel is a country. Perhaps you could explain why you think it isn’t?

Because it is a created plot of land created by rthe UN.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Again … a meaningless distinction with no basis in law. And not something that would prevent anyone from referring to Israel as a ‘country’ in common speech. So apart from having no legal meaning, and no relevance to commonly understood English words, you’re doing ok.

Your problem, of course, is that you’re trapped in a mindset that seeks to delegitimise Israel’s existence. As we all know, ‘from the river to the sea’ isn’t a cuddly slogan, it is the desperate cry of those who wish to see the un-creation of that ‘plot of land’ as you quaintly put it.