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-   -   UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33708171)

nomadking 16-10-2019 16:48
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014101)
I was meaning after whatever negotiations/deals were agreed.

Take a chill pill, dude... ;)
No you weren't. This is the post you replied to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36014060)
We've already voted to leave, man. It's up to the politicians to implement it.
Nothing there related to what happens after we leave.

OLD BOY 16-10-2019 17:07
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014103)

Nothing there related to what happens after we leave.
After we leave, we negotiate trade agreements with the EU and the rest of the world.

jfman 16-10-2019 17:16
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36014102)
Except that it is true, jfman.
It’s entirely speculative, and goes against all educated analysis. However we digress as it’s not a “development”.

nomadking 16-10-2019 17:19
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36014104)
After we leave, we negotiate trade agreements with the EU and the rest of the world.
That's still not connected to anything as a result of any "deal" everybody keeps going on about. Whether we accept or reject the "deal", is irrelevant to how the country is afterwards. People keep implying that it's relevant and connected, when it very much isn't supposed to be.


The backstop will most likely put the kibosh on any future deals with the EU, and whoever they have a trade deal with. That is it's very aim. To put something in the temporary arrangement, that goes beyond the temporary period, without ever being able to agree or not agree to anything.

jfman 16-10-2019 17:21
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
It’s entertaining that Johnson is keeping the details from the Cabinet. Clearly this isn’t the Brexit anyone hoped for/was promised.

denphone 16-10-2019 17:27
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014107)
It’s entertaining that Johnson is keeping the details from the Cabinet. Clearly this isn’t the Brexit anyone hoped for/was promised.
Was this the same Boris Johnson who once said that no British Tory government could accept customs controls between GB and NI.

jfman 16-10-2019 17:45
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014108)
Was this the same Boris Johnson who once said that no British Tory government could accept customs controls between GB and NI.
I can only assume you are lying. Boris is an honest man of principles and virtue.

nomadking 16-10-2019 18:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014108)
Was this the same Boris Johnson who once said that no British Tory government could accept customs controls between GB and NI.
Didn't realise that Parliament had actually given him a free hand in negotiations.:rolleyes:

jfman 16-10-2019 18:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014111)
Didn't realise that Parliament had actually given him a free hand in negotiations.:rolleyes:
They don’t have to. There’s always no deal. :)

That’s satisfies his criteria.

nomadking 16-10-2019 18:10
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014113)
They don’t have to. There’s always no deal. :)

That’s satisfies his criteria.
Where has Parliament said that? Have you read the Benn bill?

pip08456 16-10-2019 18:13
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
BREAKING: French President Macron says on #Brexit, an agreement is being finalised

jfman 16-10-2019 18:33
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014114)
Where has Parliament said that? Have you read the Benn bill?
It simply enforces a delay. Nothing to stop Boris going for no deal after that.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014115)
BREAKING: French President Macron says on #Brexit, an agreement is being finalised
To get voted down on Saturday.

Sephiroth 16-10-2019 19:04
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.
That's because it wasn't on the ballot paper. What was on the ballot paper was crystal clear. Only Remainers play the ballot paper card.

Pierre 16-10-2019 20:25
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014107)
It’s entertaining that Johnson is keeping the details from the Cabinet. Clearly this isn’t the Brexit anyone hoped for/was promised.
Which one did you hope for?

Hugh 16-10-2019 20:27
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014108)
Was this the same Boris Johnson who once said that no British Tory government could accept customs controls between GB and NI.
Well, if this is true (a Customs Border running down the Irish Sea), this would be contrary to section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018
Quote:
55 Single United Kingdom customs territory

(1)It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.

(2)For the purposes of this section “customs territory” shall have the same meaning as in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1947 as amended.
Until Section 55 is repealed by Parliament it is unlawful for the United Kingdom to enter into such an agreement - amusingly, this amendment was authored by Jacob Rees-Mog and tabled by members of the European Research Group (ERG)...

jfman 16-10-2019 20:35
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014129)
Which one did you hope for?
I don't have to hope for any type of Brexit to make the passing observation that radio silence, and Mark Francois visible anger, mean that it's not unicorn Brexit and that clearly there will be some upset at the outcome from within the Brexit camp. Despite it being one homogeneous group where everyone knew exactly what they voted for.

Pierre 16-10-2019 20:40
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014133)
I don't have to hope for any type of Brexit to make the passing observation that radio silence, and Mark Francois visible anger, mean that it's not unicorn Brexit
Well you do, you made the statement, you can’t qualify that statement because you have no idea what kind of Brexit was hoped for. That is the fundamental argument for Remain.

The only version of expected Brexit that was hoped for that you can opine on is yours. Unless you canvass the 17.4 million to get their view.

nomadking 16-10-2019 20:46
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014133)
I don't have to hope for any type of Brexit to make the passing observation that radio silence, and Mark Francois visible anger, mean that it's not unicorn Brexit and that clearly there will be some upset at the outcome from within the Brexit camp. Despite it being one homogeneous group where everyone knew exactly what they voted for.
They voted for Leave. Anything that involves the backstop in any shape or form, is not Leave.

jfman 16-10-2019 20:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014135)
Well you do, you made the statement, you can’t qualify that statement because you have no idea what kind of Brexit was hoped for. That is the fundamental argument for Remain.

The only version of expected Brexit that was hoped for that you can opine on is yours. Unless you canvass the 17.4 million to get their view.
Wrong.

Mark Francois is visibly angry. I can opine on that. I doubt he’s a 17.4 million to 1 shot, he seems a fairly average bloke.

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014138)
They voted for Leave. Anything that involves the backstop in any shape or form, is not Leave.
Quite.

Pierre 16-10-2019 21:15
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014141)
Wrong.

Mark Francois is visibly angry. I can opine on that.
Wow 0.0000057% that voted for Brexit. So representative of the hope and dreams of the voters.

Quote:
he seems a fairly average bloke.
Possibly the hardest of the hard line brexiteers................so average.

Sephiroth 16-10-2019 21:21
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
This Brexit is so dragged out that the conversation has been reduced to the above!

Pierre 16-10-2019 21:36
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014145)
This Brexit is so dragged out that the conversation has been reduced to the above!
It’s been worse than that for a long time.

In my mind, this deal has to go through.

MPs need to ponder long and hard on the consequences if they block this. They will have solved nothing or stopped nothing and everyone has had enough.

For me, the May deal was enough ( and I said so at the time), although I could appreciate the backstop issues.

If this deal somehow gets around all of that and more, then it has to fly.

Bottom line is we will get nothing better, ever. It’s this or no deal.

But the remainers plan is to keep the nation in limbo ad infinitum, until we stay. Rejecting this deal, then Continually rejecting no deal, when there isn’t a deal apart from this deal, on the table, ........for ever.

nomadking 16-10-2019 21:44
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014153)
It’s been worse than that for a long time.

In my mind, this deal has to go through.

MPs need to ponder long and hard on the consequences if they block this. They will have solved nothing or stopped nothing and everyone has had enough.

For me, the May deal was enough ( and I said so at the time), although I could appreciate the backstop issues.

If this deal somehow gets around all of that and more, then it has to fly.

Bottom line is we will get nothing better, ever. It’s this or no deal.

But the remainers plan is to keep the nation in limbo ad infinitum, until we stay. Rejecting this deal, then Continually rejecting no deal, when there isn’t a deal apart from this deal, on the table, ........for ever.
The central point is with the backstop in place, it is job done, as far as Ireland is concerned. No future deals need to be done. That is why any interim(check your dictionary) "deal" must not include it. It is designed solely to prevent the possibility of future deals.
Link

Quote:
The Irish goal was to get the border into a legally binding withdrawal agreement – Dublin’s point of maximum leverage – rather than future trade relations, when Dublin would struggle to be heard.

Pierre 16-10-2019 21:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014154)
The central point is with the backstop in place, it is job done, as far as Ireland is concerned. No future deals need to be done. That is why any interim(check your dictionary) "deal" must not include it. It is designed solely to prevent the possibility of future deals.
Link
The backstop was an EU requirement, it came from this statement from Barnier.

Quote:
"It consequently seems essential for the UK to commit to ensuring that a hard border on the island of Ireland is avoided, including by ensuring no emergence of regulatory divergence from those rules of the internal market and the Customs Union which are (or may be in the future) necessary for meaningful North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the Good Friday Agreement."
To avoid a hard border there has to be “regulatory alignment” between North. And South. This is the fundamental issue that has to be overcome.

It isn’t politics or ideals, it is paperwork.

jfman 16-10-2019 21:54
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014144)
Wow 0.0000057% that voted for Brexit. So representative of the hope and dreams of the voters.

Possibly the hardest of the hard line brexiteers................so average.
I didn’t think there was hard line or extreme Brexiteers. I thought there was only one type.

Pierre 16-10-2019 22:02
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014156)
I didn’t think there was hard line or extreme Brexiteers. I thought there was only one type.
Nah you’ve been misinformed, don’t you remember? After the vote they were all recategorised.

nomadking 16-10-2019 22:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014155)
The backstop was an EU requirement, it came from this statement from Barnier.



To avoid a hard border there has to be “regulatory alignment” between North. And South. This is the fundamental issue that has to be overcome.

It isn’t politics or ideals, it is paperwork.
The Irish came up with it before the referendum took place.
Quote:
Enda Kenny, the then taoiseach, ordered the first Brexit impact study in 2014. Officials identified the impact on the economy, diplomatic ties, and crucially the Good Friday agreement and what Brexit would mean for the border.

...
After the shock of the no vote sunk in, Kenny quickly assembled a team of almost 100 people to work on Brexit. He beefed up embassies across EU capitals to convey a stark message: the border was not just about protecting the single market, it was about peace.
...
In October[2016] Kenny agreed with the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, that technical talks between officials in Brussels and Dublin would open. They met again in January 2017 and agreed “there was no technical solution” to the border.
They were beginning to realise that only a political solution – specifically, regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the EU – could avert a hard border. This was the genesis of the backstop.

Damien 16-10-2019 22:09
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Looks like the only thing holding it up is the DUP and their 'consent' mechanism in N.I. It seems Ireland responded to the U.K.'s concession over the border with a concession of their own but it might not be enough for the DUP who want a veto themselves rather than a simple majority of the assembly.

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014158)
The Irish came up with it before the referendum took place.
Because the problem was foreseeable.

nomadking 16-10-2019 22:10
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014157)
Nah you’ve been misinformed, don’t you remember? After the vote they were all recategorised.
Don't you mean effectively disenfranchised.

ianch99 16-10-2019 22:11
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014158)
The Irish came up with it before the referendum took place.
It's a fenian conspiracy I tell you! A friend of mine, Toby Sure, just confirmed it .. :)

nomadking 16-10-2019 22:19
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36014162)
It's a fenian conspiracy I tell you! A friend of mine, Toby Sure, just confirmed it .. :)
Quote:
After Leo Varadkar succeeded Kenny in June 2017 the Irish pressed their advantage. The new taoiseach wanted a “win”, said one Fine Gael party colleague, and squeezing the Brits proved popular.

Pierre 16-10-2019 22:20
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014158)
The Irish came up with it before the referendum took place.
No, that’s not what your post says. They “investigated it” before the referendum, no doubt as part of a Brexit Impact Analysis. But they didn’t come up with it until 2017. As per your post.

nomadking 16-10-2019 22:36
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014166)
No, that’s not what your post says. They “investigated it” before the referendum, no doubt as part of a Brexit Impact Analysis. But they didn’t come up with it until 2017. As per your post.
That is when the Irish it raised with the EU, not when they came up with it.

Pierre 16-10-2019 22:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36014167)
That is when the Irish it raised with the EU, not when they came up with it.
Sorry, no. They flagged it internally as an issue during an impact assessment in 2014, according to your post. I’ve not Looked at any other evidence.

They didn’t enact it, so to speak, until 2017 after the referendum.

You can’t have a go at them for that, in that regard in my opinion, they have acted perfectly reasonably and as expected.

denphone 17-10-2019 06:55
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
DUP issues statement saying the 'could not support' deal as it stands.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

Quote:
The DUP has issued a statement fromArlene Foster and Nigel Dodds saying that “as things stand, we could not support what is being suggested on customs and consent issues and there is a lack of clarity on VAT.

Damien 17-10-2019 07:30
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I don’t see how the DUP rejecting everything is in the long term interests of the union. Northern Ireland now has a way out of the backstop and they’re still not happy because they don’t have a veto themselves.

GrimUpNorth 17-10-2019 07:46
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014170)
I don’t see how the DUP rejecting everything is in the long term interests of the union. Northern Ireland now has a way out of the backstop and they’re still not happy because they don’t have a veto themselves.
They're being difficult because they know the more they dig their heels in now the quicker the magic money tree will grow another branch or two - like everyone else they realise as soon as there's a general election they'll be kicked in to the grass if the Conservatives win an overall majority. You can't blame them.

denphone 17-10-2019 07:48
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth (Post 36014171)
They're being difficult because they know the more they dig their heels in now the quicker the magic money tree will grow another branch or two - like everyone else they realise as soon as there's a general election they'll be kicked in to the grass if the Conservatives win an overall majority. You can't blame them.
It is worth remembering DUP did not support the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and we all know what happened there.

1andrew1 17-10-2019 07:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Surely it's now Brexit extension and election? The DUP have pushed their luck too far.

denphone 17-10-2019 07:57
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36014173)
Surely it's now Brexit extension and election? The DUP have pushed their luck too far.
But Boris Johnson said he would rather "die in a ditch" then ask for another extension.

Pierre 17-10-2019 08:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36014173)
Surely it's now Brexit extension and election? The DUP have pushed their luck too far.
It’s not over ‘til it’s over.

jfman 17-10-2019 09:32
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014174)
But Boris Johnson said he would rather "die in a ditch" then ask for another extension.
He's got a strong hand though to extend. He's arguably proven the "he's not interested in a deal" doubters wrong.

"Back me. We leave. With a deal. I've literally shook hands with Barnier and Tusk on it. Let's get Brexit done."

More time is required to get the legislation in place anyway.

Hugh 17-10-2019 09:34
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014178)
He's got a strong hand though to extend. He's arguably proven the "he's not interested in a deal" doubters wrong.

"Back me. We leave. With a deal. I've literally shook hands with Barnier and Tusk on it. Let's get Brexit done."

More time is required to get the legislation in place anyway.
But it’s a deal worse than the one he resigned over, and voted against?

(Allegedly- it’s on the news now that the EU member states haven’t seen it yet, and it’s hundreds of pages long, which will need checking).

Pierre 17-10-2019 09:36
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014180)
But it’s a deal worse than the one he resigned over, and voted against?
How so? have you seen it?

Hugh 17-10-2019 09:37
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Just on what been reported - updated whilst you were posting.

jfman 17-10-2019 10:46
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014180)
But it’s a deal worse than the one he resigned over, and voted against?

(Allegedly- it’s on the news now that the EU member states haven’t seen it yet, and it’s hundreds of pages long, which will need checking).
The public at large in a general election arguably won't care for the detail on that level. I'm sure he can find a way to spin that it's a better deal, allows Britain to move on but respect the GFA.

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

We have a deal. Over to Parliament...

pip08456 17-10-2019 10:49
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Boris Johnson
‏Verified account @BorisJohnson
13m13 minutes ago

We’ve got a great new deal that takes back control — now Parliament should get Brexit done on Saturday so we can move on to other priorities like the cost of living, the NHS, violent crime and our environment

Damien 17-10-2019 11:33
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
DUP still haven’t approved it so No 10 are piling the pressure on

denphone 17-10-2019 11:37
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Here is the text of the new Brexit agreement.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...rn_ireland.pdf

Pierre 17-10-2019 11:41
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014189)
Here is the text of the new Brexit agreement.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...rn_ireland.pdf
well I for one cannot be arsed to read it.

Damien 17-10-2019 11:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I believe it’s essentially a border in the Irish Sea, NI regulatory alignment with the EU and NI can opt out with a majority of their assembly. The big concession from the EU is essentially a way out of the backstop, a 'backstop' has been moved to the Irish Sea and renamed to compress a set of policies to avoid a hard border (VAT arrangements and regulations) rather than a hard 'stay in the customs union'. At least I think that's what's different.

But the way out of the backstop is a vote every four years, the first being four years from now, in the N.I assembly rather than the U.K Government as a whole. Significant because it's unlikely N.I will have a majority for that. The DUP wanted the power to Veto it themselves which hasn't been granted and therefore we don't know if they'll back this deal.

jfman 17-10-2019 12:16
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Can one of the news outlets please stick a microphone in front of Mark Francois?

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

Farage wants a General Election. Ha ha.

Damien 17-10-2019 12:34
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Boris has won some concessions here so any ‘we want a deal’ers have little excuse.

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

DUP will vote against

Deal is dead

1andrew1 17-10-2019 12:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014195)
Boris has won some concessions here so any ‘we want a deal’ers have little excuse.

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

DUP will vote against

Deal is dead
Exactly - we loop back to my post from this morning - extension and general election.

It's hard for this situation to be blamed on anyone else but the DUP.

denphone 17-10-2019 12:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014195)
Boris has won some concessions here so any ‘we want a deal’ers have little excuse.

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

DUP will vote against

Deal is dead
Well that did not last long.

Hugh 17-10-2019 13:12
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014191)
I believe it’s essentially a border in the Irish Sea, NI regulatory alignment with the EU and NI can opt out with a majority of their assembly. The big concession from the EU is essentially a way out of the backstop, a 'backstop' has been moved to the Irish Sea and renamed to compress a set of policies to avoid a hard border (VAT arrangements and regulations) rather than a hard 'stay in the customs union'. At least I think that's what's different.

But the way out of the backstop is a vote every four years, the first being four years from now, in the N.I assembly rather than the U.K Government as a whole. Significant because it's unlikely N.I will have a majority for that. The DUP wanted the power to Veto it themselves which hasn't been granted and therefore we don't know if they'll back this deal.
Summarised by the BBC News at One - one thing they said about the 2nd point (NI remains in U.K. customs territory) was that EU Custom Processes would apply.

Carth 17-10-2019 13:26
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Legal bid at Court of Session to stop MPs debating Brexit deal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

first they want Parliament to remain open to discus Brexit, then they want them to stop discussing Brexit.

Don't these educated remainers understand that they're just pushing nearer to a no deal with their tactics?

Hugh 17-10-2019 13:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50079385
Quote:
What is in the deal?

Most of the deal is the same as the one agreed by Theresa May last year - the main change is the Northern Ireland proposals.

- The UK will continue to abide by EU rules until the end of 2020, and possibly longer, to allow businesses to adjust
- The UK will still pay an estimated £39bn "divorce bill"
- The rights of EU citizens living in the UK, and UK citizens in the EU, will be guaranteed

What's changed?

- Northern Ireland will be aligned to the EU single market
- The controversial "backstop" - that critics feared could have kept the UK in a customs union with the EU indefinitely - has been removed
- Northern Ireland will instead remain a part of the UK's customs territory, so it will be included in any future trade deals struck by the government after Brexit
- But Northern Ireland will also remain an entry point into the EU's customs zone. The UK will apply tariffs to products entering Northern Ireland as long as they are not destined for onward transportation across the border
- A joint EU/UK committee will decide which goods are at risk of entering the single market and the UK will collect EU tariffs on them on behalf of the EU
- The Northern Ireland Assembly - which has been suspended since January 2017 - will get a vote every four years on whether to continue with the new trading arrangements
- The decision would be based on a simple majority, rather than requiring a majority of both unionists and nationalists to support the rules in order for them to pass

Leader of the Commons and Brexit supporter Jacob Rees-Mogg said it was a "really exciting day today in British politics" as he urged MPs to "rally round this great deal".

But Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage called for it to be rejected by Parliament, saying it would mean "we will not be making our own laws in our own country" and said the treaty "binds us in to other commitments".

Pierre 17-10-2019 14:26
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
It gets better

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share

Looks like Boris has the EU onside.

pip08456 17-10-2019 14:32
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36014207)
Legal bid at Court of Session to stop MPs debating Brexit deal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

first they want Parliament to remain open to discus Brexit, then they want them to stop discussing Brexit.

Don't these educated remainers understand that they're just pushing nearer to a no deal with their tactics?
They are doing it to push Boris into requesting an extension. Good luck with that.
Quote:
The President of the European Commission rules out granting an extension to the Brexit deadline of 31 October.

Jean-Claude Juncker tells reporters there is no need for an extension now there is a deal on the table.

Pierre 17-10-2019 14:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014215)
They are doing it to push Boris into requesting an extension. Good luck with that.
The problem is, the EU don't an extension, and Boris doesn't want to ask for one. But if he is forced to ask for one, the EU will probably grant one.

The situation really needs the EU to be tough and say this is the deal take it or leave it - No more extensions.

That needs to come from the EU27 and Boris will making the case for them to say that tonight.

If that message comes out, Parliament has no where to go.

Brexit - followed by GE before Christmas. I hope it goes that way.

Hugh 17-10-2019 14:45
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Juncker chose his words very carefully.

Quote:
Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters: "I was ruling out that there would be any kind of prolongation.

"If we have a deal we have a deal and there is no need for prolongation.

"That is the British view and that is my view too."

Asked about whether the Commons would allow it, he said: "I am not in charge of Parliamentary affairs of Britain."
They only have a deal if it's passed in Parliament, and the legal text has not been issued to Parliament for review yet.

They had a deal before, but an extension was still granted.

pip08456 17-10-2019 15:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014219)
Juncker chose his words very carefully.



They only have a deal if it's passed in Parliament, and the legal text has not been issued to Parliament for review yet.

They had a deal before, but an extension was still granted.

Beth Rigby
‏Verified account @BethRigby
47m47 minutes ago

NEW: We just doorstepped Juncker and he told us explicitly that he is ruling out extension. He said we have a deal so we don’t need one

papa smurf 17-10-2019 15:23
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014221)
Beth Rigby
‏Verified account @BethRigby
47m47 minutes ago

NEW: We just doorstepped Juncker and he told us explicitly that he is ruling out extension. He said we have a deal so we don’t need one
Let's hope that is the end of it then,no more dither and delay it's deal or no deal out by the 31/10

Chris 17-10-2019 15:44
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
So that’s it ... we’re leaving on 31 October, deal or no deal, unless the remainers in Parliament finally break cover and try to get A50 revoked.

Hugh 17-10-2019 16:17
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
1 Attachment(s)
Interesting take on this from NF

Pierre 17-10-2019 16:20
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014227)
Interesting take on this from NF
Not sure where he coming from with that.

The Benn Act is UK act, the EU has no obligation whatsoever to entertain it.

TheDaddy 17-10-2019 16:59
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014213)
It gets better

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share

Looks like Boris has the EU onside.
Better for who, struggle to see them being "onside" if it were genuinely in our interests

pip08456 17-10-2019 17:09
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Beth Rigby
‏Verified account @BethRigby
1h1 hour ago

NEW: Hearing from sources second referendum amendment on Saturday is now unlikely. Focus on defeating Johnson deal > in reality need Labour backing to get it passed and Corbyn ain’t there

Pierre 17-10-2019 17:13
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36014230)
Better for who, struggle to see them being "onside" if it were genuinely in our interests
It’s in their interests. No matter what the Remainers and our Remain Parliament would like, Brexit will happen, eventually. So why prolong the agony.

Lance the boil and move forward.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014232)
Beth Rigby
‏Verified account @BethRigby
1h1 hour ago

NEW: Hearing from sources second referendum amendment on Saturday is now unlikely. Focus on defeating Johnson deal > in reality need Labour backing to get it passed and Corbyn ain’t there
Would be pant wettingly hilarious, if they voted against the deal and the EU kept firm on no extension. They would have to vote for it or no deal.

No doubt this is what Boris will be reinforcing with EU27. Hold firm, the deal will have to be passed and we can all move on.

Negotiations on the new trade deal begin on Nov 1st.

papa smurf 17-10-2019 17:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014233)
It’s in their interests. No matter what the Remainers and our Remain Parliament would like, Brexit will happen, eventually. So why prolong the agony.

Lance the boil and move forward.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------



Would be pant wettingly hilarious, if they voted against the deal and the EU kept firm on no extension. They would have to vote for it or no deal.

No doubt this is what Boris will be reinforcing with EU27. Hold firm, the deal will have to be passed and we can all move on.

Negotiations on the new trade deal begin on Nov 1st.
Isn't there a rule against voting for the same deal more than once ? and if so
saturday is the last chance saloon.

pip08456 17-10-2019 17:45
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
May's deal was presented 3 times, but Boris could just as easily not present it again and no deal is the result in no extension granted.

papa smurf 17-10-2019 17:53
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014236)
May's deal was presented 3 times, but Boris could just as easily not present it again and no deal is the result in no extension granted.
Yes but didn't berclod drag up some guff from the stone age that prohibited it being presented more than once?

pip08456 17-10-2019 18:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36014238)
Yes but didn't berclod drag up some guff from the stone age that prohibited it being presented more than once?
Wasn@t it to stop it being presented for the 4th time?

papa smurf 17-10-2019 18:24
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014241)
Wasn@t it to stop it being presented for the 4th time?
Indeed it was but i thought the ruling was that no bill if defeated can be presented in the same form in future sittings of the house.

jfman 17-10-2019 19:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014241)
Wasn@t it to stop it being presented for the 4th time?
We are in a new session. That rule wouldn't apply.

Edit: as papa said

1andrew1 17-10-2019 19:07
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Anyone else think Nige is sulking somewhat today? He's now moaning that the EU is not permitting an extension*.
Quote:
So an unelected, retiring bureaucrat says: No extension, take this new treaty or just leave.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/sta...34973662175234

* I don't think this is quite what the EU said.

pip08456 17-10-2019 19:14
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014251)
We are in a new session. That rule wouldn't apply.

Edit: as papa said
So, in one session May peresented an agreement to be passed 3 times.

papa smurf 17-10-2019 19:29
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014254)
So, in one session May peresented an agreement to be passed 3 times.
Quoting from the guide to parliamentary procedure, Erskine May, Bercow said by convention, the question “may not be brought forward again during the same session” and that it was a “strong and longstanding convention” dating back to 1604.
He said the convention had been confirmed again many times, including in 1864, 1870, 1882, 1891 and 1912. “Indeed, Erskine May makes reference to no fewer than 12 such rulings up to the year 1920,” he said.

“One of the reasons the rule has lasted so long is that it is a necessary rule to ensure the sensible use of the house’s time and the proper respect for the decisions it takes.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-on-same-deal

jfman 17-10-2019 19:31
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014254)
So, in one session May peresented an agreement to be passed 3 times.
That relied on a liberal interpretation of the rules. Johnson could present the same deal (he won't) without issue.

Chris 17-10-2019 19:51
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I can’t understand what Corbyn is playing at. His party members might be remainy but his voters aren’t. He can’t hide from the electorate forever, and the mood music coming out of Brussels is that there will be no extension beyond 31 October regardless of what the Commons does. How will he resist demands for an election if we leave with no deal? How will he persuade anyone to vote for him in such circumstances? Surely he has now to stop playing politics and at the very least whip his MPs to abstain. Alternatively, a free vote.

papa smurf 17-10-2019 20:12
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36014258)
I can’t understand what Corbyn is playing at. His party members might be remainy but his voters aren’t. He can’t hide from the electorate forever, and the mood music coming out of Brussels is that there will be no extension beyond 31 October regardless of what the Commons does. How will he resist demands for an election if we leave with no deal? How will he persuade anyone to vote for him in such circumstances? Surely he has now to stop playing politics and at the very least whip his MPs to abstain. Alternatively, a free vote.
I think he wants to stay in opposition and not be in government,i doubt if he is up to the task anyway.

Pierre 17-10-2019 20:14
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36014258)
I can’t understand what Corbyn is playing at. His party members might be remainy but his voters aren’t. He can’t hide from the electorate forever, and the mood music coming out of Brussels is that there will be no extension beyond 31 October regardless of what the Commons does. How will he resist demands for an election if we leave with no deal? How will he persuade anyone to vote for him in such circumstances? Surely he has now to stop playing politics and at the very least whip his MPs to abstain. Alternatively, a free vote.
This could be all my Christmas’s come at once, Brexit ( well not really but glad to see the ref result honoured) and the demise of that jerk ( American meaning) Corbyn. ( definitely an early Christmas present)

Damien 17-10-2019 20:14
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36014258)
I can’t understand what Corbyn is playing at. His party members might be remainy but his voters aren’t. He can’t hide from the electorate forever, and the mood music coming out of Brussels is that there will be no extension beyond 31 October regardless of what the Commons does. How will he resist demands for an election if we leave with no deal? How will he persuade anyone to vote for him in such circumstances? Surely he has now to stop playing politics and at the very least whip his MPs to abstain. Alternatively, a free vote.
Why do you think his voters aren't? I don't think that is clear at all. Certainly you could say that the voters in a lot of Labour seats are largely Leave but Labour's voters in those seats are often disproportionately Remain.

See here for an example of this: https://www.britishelectionstudy.com.../#.Xai8zC-ZM61

Quote:
The root of the strategic dilemma is that, on the one hand, a majority of Labour MPs (61%) represent constituencies that had a majority leave vote in 2016, whilst on the other a clear majority of Labour voters (68%) supported Remain in 2016. Interpreting this difference appears to have been extremely important in guiding Labour strategy, dividing opinions among Labour MPs.
Quote:
This represents what social scientists call an ecological fallacy: just because Labour voters disproportionately live in Leave areas doesn’t mean that they are more likely to be Leave voters themselves. Electoral geography does matter, but when it comes to Brexit the impact of Leave versus Remain preferences on party choice is remarkably consistent.
I think the bigger problem for Corbyn is how he is going to square the argument that he only wanted to avoid a No Deal Brexit after he votes against a Brexit Deal. This'll be electoral catnip for the Tories. The Liberal Democrats don't have this problem - they just hate Brexit - but if Brexit passes then their big electoral card might go away.

Pierre 17-10-2019 21:22
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014261)
Why do you think his voters aren't? I don't think that is clear at all. Certainly you could say that the voters in a lot of Labour seats are largely Leave but Labour's voters in those seats are often disproportionately Remain.

See here for an example of this: https://www.britishelectionstudy.com.../#.Xai8zC-ZM61





I think the bigger problem for Corbyn is how he is going to square the argument that he only wanted to avoid a No Deal Brexit after he votes against a Brexit Deal. This'll be electoral catnip for the Tories. The Liberal Democrats don't have this problem - they just hate Brexit - but if Brexit passes then their big electoral card might go away.
We wouldn’t Know until we have an election, but my feeling is Labour would end up only a force within the M25

1andrew1 17-10-2019 21:28
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014263)
We wouldn’t Know until we have an election, but my feeling is Labour would end up only a force within the M25
Surely you mean outside the M25? Within is more Conservative and Liberal Democrat.

Pierre 17-10-2019 21:45
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36014264)
Surely you mean outside the M25? Within is more Conservative and Liberal Democrat.
Really?

Election 2017: The result in maps and charts http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40176349

---------- Post added at 21:45 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Unfortunately, due to population size, within the M25 yields a lot of seats. Held by Working class heroes like Emily Thornbury, Diane Abbott, Kier Starmer, Barry Gardiner, David Lammy, John McDonnell.

Labour is the biggest party in Gtr London, holding 46 seats.

Damien 17-10-2019 22:14
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014263)
We wouldn’t Know until we have an election, but my feeling is Labour would end up only a force within the M25
Probably but that'll be because of their equivication on Brexit rather than their resistance on it. They alienated Remainers and Leavers in an attempt to appeal to them both. They wanted a Brexit Deal but voted against it. They want a referendum but don't want to say which side they'll be on yet.

The Tories are being rewarded for their clarity (now). The Liberal Democrats are being awarded for their clarity. Labour keep twisting and turning on the subject and are nowhere.

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014265)
Unfortunately, due to population size, within the M25 yields a lot of seats. Held by Working class heroes like Emily Thornbury, Diane Abbott, Kier Starmer, Barry Gardiner, David Lammy, John McDonnell.

Labour is the biggest party in Gtr London, holding 46 seats.
Yup. Libs are likely the major winners in London. Probably will take Richmond from the Tories. Might take Golders Green and Westminster from Labour and the Tories respectively.

Pierre 17-10-2019 22:23
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014268)
Probably but that'll be because of their equivication on Brexit rather than their resistance on it. They alienated Remainers and Leavers in an attempt to appeal to them both. They wanted a Brexit Deal but voted against it. They want a referendum but don't want to say which side they'll be on yet.
.
They’re trying to dance between Remainer London and Leave everywhere else, but their Remainer big shots Thornbury, Starmer, Corbyn, McDonnell, Gardiner are now too planted in Remain and they think it’s a good idea.

They stand for nothing, they stand for no-one - certainly not the foundations they were built on

Damien 17-10-2019 22:27
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014271)
They’re trying to dance between Remainer London and Leave everywhere else, but their Remainer big shots Thornbury, Starmer, Corbyn, McDonnell, Gardiner are now too planted in Remain and they think it’s a good idea.

They stand for nothing, they stand for no-one - certainly not the foundations they were built on
As I linked before though a good deal of their support outside of London is remainer too. Remember a lot of seats were 50-50 Remain/Leave outside of London as well.

But yeah they're trying this dance and are failing. It's just cowardly.

jfman 18-10-2019 00:07
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I hope the deal passes. For the banter.

1andrew1 18-10-2019 07:15
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36014265)
Really?

Election 2017: The result in maps and charts http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40176349

---------- Post added at 21:45 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Unfortunately, due to population size, within the M25 yields a lot of seats. Held by Working class heroes like Emily Thornbury, Diane Abbott, Kier Starmer, Barry Gardiner, David Lammy, John McDonnell.

Labour is the biggest party in Gtr London, holding 46 seats.
M25 ring is far bigger than Greater London and contains lots of the home counties. I agree with you on Greater London though.

---------- Post added at 07:15 ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014275)
I hope the deal passes. For the banter.
Brexit fatigue can only work in Johnson's favour.

Mr K 18-10-2019 08:15
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
This is quite interesting:-
https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/stat...141513730?s=20
Quote:
An insider from one of the EU institutions here told me today that after UK made its initial offer here 2 weeks ago, Michel Barnier told him, 'we will have to get them to move to a Northern Ireland only backstop, but convince them that's not what's happening'
No wonder the EU look cheery :D

1andrew1 18-10-2019 08:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36014279)
This is quite interesting:-
https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/stat...141513730?s=20

No wonder the EU look cheery :D
This is indeed the true surrender deal. Peer into track changes and you will find a "Designed in EU" stamp from two weeks ago. ;)

jonbxx 18-10-2019 09:17
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Dominic Raab was hailing the deal this morning on the news as a great deal for Northern Ireland as it will keep 'frictionless access to the single market'. If that's so great, can the rest of the UK have this too?

papa smurf 18-10-2019 09:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36014282)
Dominic Raab was hailing the deal this morning on the news as a great deal for Northern Ireland as it will keep 'frictionless access to the single market'. If that's so great, can the rest of the UK have this too?
Your starting to sound like a whining scotts nat;)

TheDaddy 18-10-2019 10:36
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36014282)
Dominic Raab was hailing the deal this morning on the news as a great deal for Northern Ireland as it will keep 'frictionless access to the single market'. If that's so great, can the rest of the UK have this too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36014283)
Your starting to sound like a whining scotts nat;)
Is it not a fair point then? Seems like a cake and eat it situation to me

jfman 18-10-2019 11:16
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
She who pays the piper calls the tune.

Brexit extension unavoidable if MPs reject deal, says Merkel

Carth 18-10-2019 11:19
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014285)
Well that's that sorted then.

No need to wait for Parliament to vote on the deal, those who want to remain will know that another extension is there for the taking :rolleyes:

papa smurf 18-10-2019 11:23
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36014287)
Well that's that sorted then.

No need to wait for Parliament to vote on the deal, those who want to remain will know that another extension is there for the taking :rolleyes:
It makes a change from sitting in the Scottish courts instead of the HOC.


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