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it was always going to Den no surprise there cliff edge getting nearer everyday

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It's only a cliff edge for the "wait and see'ers". Those who have been proactive in preparing for the extension of the trade conditions that they already have to contend with with the rest of the world will have no major issues.

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Chequers wasn't great anyway.

But all can now see that it's the intransigence of the EU that means a no deal is now the likely outcome and to be fair, that's their prerogative.

They are under no obligation to offer us anything, and we should have - well we did - have expected it when they sent Cameron off with a flea in his ear.

The only reason to come to an agreement of some sort would be to not damage their own interests with trade and other relationships they have with us, but they are making it clear that they don't care about that......at the moment, very hardball but that wont last.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the year draws to a close. There will be much to be done in Q1 2019.

Both sides will feel the pressure and more than ever we need the Govt to hold their nerve. Because as No Deal looms some in the EU will start to sweat a bit, and that's when deals will be done.

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How can any of the Remainers in this thread want to be bound into the EU? They have behaved abominably in the "negotiations". Many of us foresaw this two years ago and we should have played hardball then. This would have given us two years to properly plan for no deal.

The Irish PM is as perfidious as they come. He should rot in hell and I hope he breaks into an itchy sweat when the EU descends on him forcing a hard border to bew erected from his side.

Corbyn is a pos who couldn't care a jot for the British people and is behaving irresponsibly in Parliament.

May is a disappointment who has failed to carry the people with her because she ididn't devise the correct negotiation strategy on day 1.

Germany - well do the Remainers want to be governed by German decisions?

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A pretty good analysis as yes Chequers was pretty much doomed from the start as at the moment there is plenty of sabre rattling and that will continue for a while but as the midnight oil starts to run out l can certainly see some type of deal being done.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

We can't blame the EU for everything for what has happened so far in the negotiations thus so far as Theresa May and her government have been pretty much a complete shambles in many aspects since the referendum and the beginning of the talks.

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The EU has said ever since the Chequers proposal was published that key aspects in it were unacceptable. I don't see why that should change just because Theresa May has hopped on a plane. The only people who've changed their minds on Chequers have been BoJo and David Davis.

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We voted to become a 3rd country - do you get it yet?

We have tried to protect our interests and the EU 27 have done the same. It is called Reality ..

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More fool them. Onwards to Brexit day.

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Macron is spot on regards the Great Democracy Swindle:

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He seems very perceptive, can we vote for him ;)

TM has cocked up big time, now the idiots will take over the asylum......God help us...

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If I was the NHS, I would sue the Leave Campaign for using the NHS logo without permission. Use of a brand indicates approval which the campaign didn't have.

---------- Post added at 21:18 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

Pressure's on!
https://www.ft.com/content/95466282-...4-55b72926558f

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-m...-work-11503460

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Good for them. I wonder how many people read that from cover to cover? Even if they did, it was not more than a page on the impact on the economy, wasn't it?

Frankly, the public are not as stupid as you think. Those who voted to leave the EU simply voted to leave. The details are for the politicians, just like it is for manifesto commitments.

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No he isn’t. Utter rubbish.

They weren’t in government to “leave” the next day in the first place!!!

I’m sick of repeating the same stuff all the time.

The Leave campaign were just a campaign. They ceased to be a campaign after 23rd June 2016. They had no responsibility to enact the result and anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly delusional.

We keep bringing up the same shit about lies. Both campaigns lied.

We are going round in circles, yet again about lies and that people didn’t know what they were voting for, bollocks. I know what voted for and expect the choice that won to be carried out in its entirety because I do not want the UK in a corrupted EU.

Brexit is happening. That’s what won the Democratic vote and the result must be enacted.

---------- Post added at 03:11 ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 ----------

And it did not need. The NHS is a public body, not a corporation.

And to be frank, even if it was, suing them is petty.

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I have mentioned this before but it seems closer now: Brexit means Corbyn.

Labour 'could win 1.5m more votes' by backing Brexit referendum

If Corbyn can be persuaded or more likely made to change his position on Brexit, after all he is a arch Leaver but still a politician, Labour will win a GE if called.

May is desperate and realises this:

That’s why I’m calling on Labour to rule out a second referendum and not take us back to square one.

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You seem quite pleased. Unfortunately, the EU's intransigence, if it continues, will simply lead to a 'no deal'. That means WTO, of course.

So any leavers who are cock-a-hoop at the EU's 'rejection' of the Chequers proposals need to ponder the fact that this just means we are one step closer to that position.

Frankly, if I were TM, I would announce at the Conservative Party Conference that although Britain had put 'the only proposal in town' to the EU, it was clear that they still wanted concessions from us despite the fact that they knew there was no room to maneouvre politically in the UK. Consequently, the UK would now be putting all its energy into preparing for a 'no deal' scenario, but that our negotiators would be on hand to resume negotiations if the EU came up with suitable proposals which the UK government would be able to accept. In the meantime, we would be asking the EU for a Canada-style UK trade deal.

It is clear that a 'no deal' will also hurt the EU. If anything will bring them to their senses, that will. Some EU leaders really think that by holding out, we will change our minds about Brexit. How wrong they are!

---------- Post added at 07:55 ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 ----------

Of course TM wants Labour to rule out another referendum. She has enough to contend with, without having to constantly engage in that nonsense.

The public has more sense than to vote a Marxist, terrorist supporting geezer like the current Leader of the Labour Party into power. Most don't want another referendum anyway. The result is likely to be the same as last time, of course.

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The ownership doesn't matter. You have to sue to deter others and protect your reputation.

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Andrew, yes it does matter. NHS is a tax payer funded public institution, so in essence it belongs to the people, not one single person or entity.

As for Corbyn, there will not be a General Election, any time soon, the fixed term Parliament Act says so. There would have to be a vote put to parliament.

Labour had this apparent glorious Manifesto, where they supported Brexit, if they did an about turn they would lose a lot of UKIP votes.

These people in the Remain camp hoping for a another referendum, do you think if Remain won, it would all be hunky dory?

You are delusional. There would be untold demands for another vote, why should you get another vote and it be implemented when the 2016 result is ignored?

And we keep going having tons of votes because undemocratic, selfish people who will not accept the democratic result in 2016, want us to keep going until they get the result they want.

We had a vote, leave won. Thus, we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019.

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I'm pretty surprised the heads of state went in so hard to be honest. Chequers was never going to fly - trusting the UK to collect EU tariffs after the UK has been censured for not collecting tariffs properly in the past was never an option. Countries don't trust each other, hence the need for a solid governance system in trade deals.

However, Theresa May was probably the EUs best bet for a deal, hence the reluctance to say an outright 'no' from the start. If she goes, will her replacement be more amenable to what the EU wants? I would say almost certainly no, May was probably the most EU friendly potential leader of the Conservative party at present. Therefore the other heads of state and the EU have a vested interest in keeping her in power. To go in hard just before the party conference sounds like they have given up on keeping May in power.

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This could actually strengthen May if she now came out and said, 'Well, we tried, but the fact that the EU is not prepared to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement clearly shows that there is no possibility of a deal until they decide to engage. Accordingly, we will now conentrate on making the necessary WTO arrangements to secure our future enhanced prosperity'.

At that point, I think TM's fortunes will change.

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Firstly, welcome back, I hope you're enjoying your new home.
Secondly, the NHS states the brand can only be sued with its authorisation.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/nhsidenti...-nhs-identity/

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This is a bit of a diversion, Andrew.

In any case, everyone knows that the NHS had nothing to do with the slogan on the bus.

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Move over Mystic Meg! You have read far too much into two neutral words. Like most people, I feel sorry for her but unlike you and Theresa, I ws prepared for the knock-back yesterday.
It's correct that the pressure is on. Surely you can agree with my two words?

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Anyone, who has followed this closely from Cameron's attempt at a small bit of reform, through to the referendum and the attitude of the EU along the whole process was prepared for this.

If TM wasn't, then she had been ill advised. Maybe she had some indication behind the scenes that there would be some positive movement, who knows.

The EU will not budge one cm. May should cut her losses, declare no deal, everybody had 6months to get their affairs in order, if they haven't already done so, and we move on.

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I don't think the UK Government is at all prepared for no deal and will avoid it at all costs. They would have expected the EU to play hardball at some point. I wouldn't put it pass both sides here for this to have been almost part of the theatre.

Anyway May has called the BBC to No 10 and will make a statement at 1:45.

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Mick's predictions are tingling again that in the next ten minutes she will announce her resignation as Prime Minister.

(Well one can only hope).

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45603192

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There’s currently no power in the room at No 10 where the PM is going to make her speech so it might delay things a bit.:)

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Ollie Robbins, has stole the fuse I suspect.... ;)

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Adam Boulton
‏
‏

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Finally the leadership the country desperately needs - that was a pretty awesome statement from Theresa May.

Stand up to those bully boy pricks May. I have not agreed with you for some time - I agree with your statement today and I commend this statement to the forum.

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So you're right behind May's Chequers plan now ? :confused:

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Is it not quite obvious that we are the country leaving the EU so It's up to us to come up with solutions and thus so far we have come up with none.

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We're telling 27 countries they have to change their rules to fit in with our plans. Not surprising they're telling us to 'do one'. We always have over estimated our position.

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Meh. As with the EU statement yesterday I am not sure what's changed. Tough talk but no climb down on Chequers and seems more a rebuke to their rebuke yesterday as well as tossing some red meat to the Brexit press and those in her party.

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exactly Den :clap::clap::clap:

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All seems a bit repeat the same old thing and expecting a different outcome whilst changing nothing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone
Is it not quite obvious that we are the country leaving the EU so It's up to us to come up with solutions and thus so far we have come up with none.

Cobblers. A negotiation requires two sides at minimum. We come up with proposals, they should either agree or spell out what is wrong with a particular item. Then iterate until agreement is reached.

What you Remainers should be decrying is what Macron said. He is the arch-enemy (along with the Brussels ***s). Now is not the time to sneer at the UK even if May has not handled this optimally from the start (i.e. understanding from the Greek lesson how the EU would behave).

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We can decry who we want. The EU isn't sitting there reading this forum as a measurement of the British resolve.

Besides I don't think much has changed. This little fight was always bound to happen and to be honest I think it probably helps May sell Chequers to Brexiters if it's seen as being forced upon the EU rather than amicably accepted so easily.

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Negotiation is based on finding agreement between 2 points. The EU 4 freedoms are not up for negotiation. Therefore a route such as the one Canada has needs to be looked at. Chequers does not work with the EU 4 Freedoms.

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One l resent being called a remainer as much as some resent being called a Brexiteer as its us the UK that are leaving the EU and not them so why should they make it easy for us to leave as thus so far for two years since the referendum it was up to us to come up with agreeable solutions but thus so far its been a complete omnishambles from HMG as thus so far our solutions or lack of them have amounted to diddly squat.

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Problem you have there, it is the Northern Irish who are being punished by Brexit with all the problems it will cause the GFA.

The only way to avoid a hard border is not to leave the EU.

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Before the speech, Sam Coates of The Times tweeted:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/s...05494188126209

Obviously, she went for number three.

Reading the rest of Sam's tweets. it appears that May could have blundered yesterday by 1) reading out a document to tired people who had already read it 2) dismissed an EU creative solution to the island of Ireland issue that had taken days of work withourt reading it.

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The EU have offered a solution. Anything you might want would mean a fundamental change to the EU. We are leaving, we don't get to change the EU to suit.

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I, and Mrs Pierre, voted Remain, but if there was referendum tomorrow I would vote Brexit. I wouldn’t want to be part of this outfit, regardless.

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On sale at the UKIP Conference - Nigel Farage condoms.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...0&d=1537546418

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Is that the bargain basement corner.;)

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[QUOTE=Angua;35963908]Problem you have there, it is the Northern Irish who are being punished by Brexit with all the problems it will cause the GFA.

The only way to avoid a hard border is not to leave the EU.[/QUOTE]

Which, of course, is the opposite of what the electorate voted for.

The Irish government had better be careful. If we are forced to accept WTO and the EU impose a trade border, we might just decide to impose a trade embargo and shift our Irish trade to the US or somewhere else instead.

Could turn nasty.

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Even Baldrick gets it!

https://twitter.com/Tony_Robinson/st...64866763206656

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Have they? That's not what Theresa May said this afternoon.

Oh, silly me, you meant the solution that we stay in the EU! Ain't gonna happen, mate.

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[QUOTE=OLD BOY;35963923]Yeah, look at the companies we would be boycotting - http://www.top1000.ie/companies

Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook in the technology field. In my business, almost every big pharmaceutical company has a base in Ireland - https://www.siliconrepublic.com/care...panies-ireland

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[QUOTE=jonbxx;35963936]I don't think that where a company has a base is necessarily a factor. Are you seriously suggesting, for example, that we won't be able to access Google if we closed the Irish border to trade?

I don't think so. However, agricultural products would be seriously affected. The Irish Republic would not like that.

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The 'red lines' are more ours than the EU though.

1) Neither the EU or the UK wants a border in Ireland
2) The UK doesn't want a border in the Irish Sea - EU cool with that
3) The UK doesn't want a customs union - EU cool with that

What is the solution to the problem we are hoping the EU comes up with?

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[QUOTE=OLD BOY;35963942]There’s more to Google than a search engine! Their medical AI work for instance is just amazing. Plus all of their analytics, development platforms and APIs.

I know in the pharma field, some sites in Ireland are sole manufacturers globally. There is no alternative if you want a specific drug..

You are right, though, agriculture, especially in the northern counties will definitely be hurt big time.

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These to me are the options which haven't changed since 2016.
1) No deal
2) Postpone withdrawal
3) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland stays in EEA and Customs Union.
4) Great Britain stays in EEA but leaves Customs Union. Northern Ireland stays in both EEA and Customs Union
5) Great Britain gets a Canada-style deal. Northern Ireland stays in both EEA and Customs Union.

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The last one will be interesting as May has again stated the UK will not be fragmented, which the last option would require.

Whilst the last option may suit some, it will definitely not suit the hard leave group and splits the UK in terms of agreements. Scotland might start clamouring for a similar arrangement as NI.

The whole EU vote has divided the UK and the Tory Party, and it looks like NI will be sacrificed in order to maintain the Tory party.

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Can you remind me which of these is in the "leaflet posted through the door explaining exactly what brexit was" ? :)

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Fixed that for you.

Please don’t equate Scottish nationalists with Scotland; they are not the same thing. Most Scottish people understand the principles behind democracy and majority - I’d argue that most understand them better than many people south of the border, seeing as we are the only part of the U.K. ever to have debated and voted on a choice to be in or out of the UK. We understand that this means we go where the UK goes even if most people in Scotland later voted to remain in the EU. Nationalists continue to argue for different treatment for Scotland because it suits their agenda to keep seeking points of difference and grievance.

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Fair play, but you do see where this is going.

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Not a lot of difference between 55/45 and 52/48.

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The similarities between the arguments over Scottish independence and the UK’s membership of the EU are also quite striking, though they are by no means identical (hence the enormously different voting pattern in Scotland in 2016 compared to 2014).

The likely similarity between Brexit negotiations and any attempt to negotiate Scotland out of the U.K. is giving Nicola Sturgeon sleepless nights at the moment. You may have wondered why she has been so restrained (for her) in her commentary on the process; it’s because she doesn’t want to make the process look horribly difficult for fear of making the process of Scottish independence look so horrible as to be unthinkable. It’s also the reason why she’s not lining up with the ‘people’s vote’ numpties in support of a second referendum. You can be quite certain that if she ever wins one in Scotland, she won’t entertain any calls for a second referendum of any form. She knows, even if the ‘peoples Vote’ lot won’t admit it, that a second referendum ‘on the terms of the deal’ is really just a device to overturn the original result.

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I read it in the leaflet, anyone who didn't should go to Specsavers. Other brands are available. :D

I think The Independent nails what will happen.
What will happen? Jonathan Lis of Influence spells it out.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-customs-union
Whether the UK decides to remove the GB-NI border by GB staying in the Customs Union and EEA is up to Theresa May's Government. Expect a somewhat different approach from Theresa May after the Conservative Party Conference!

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How's a border in the Irish Sea going to work?

1. GB to Northern Ireland - no border.
2. GB to Irish Republic - that's up to the EU.
3. Irish Republic to GB - that's up to the UK.
4. Irish Republic to Northern Ireland - that's up to the EU if we make no border.
5. Northern Ireland to Irish Republic - that's up to the EU.

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Or give Ireland back to the Irish......

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Some Brexiters do indeed see that as a price worth paying for sovereignty.

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Well, that won't happen!

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Does Mr. Ksupport Irish unity is my question.

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As usual, Mr K was having a laugh.

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It was a bit 'tongue in cheek', but it would solve a lot of Brexiters problems. Ultimately its up to the people that live there. However they might want to be in the EU, post Brexit whilst the rest of the UK goes down the tube....

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Like I said, he wouldn’t miss an opportunity


http://news.sky.com/story/farage-lau...rayal-11505808

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Farage is highly credible. His LBC slot at 18:00 Monday-Thursday is worth listening to. I hope he leaves UKIP and is able to join the Conservatives so that there is at lewast a chance that he will get into Parliament.

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You've just lost all credibility...

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In only your opinion.

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That's Mr K's problem. He lost all credibility with his continuous "tongue in cheek" remarks.

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Just like it was ultimately up to us to decide if we wanted to be in or out of the EU bloc?

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Eh please remind me when he actually ever had any in the first place ? Iv been here 9 years and failed to ever see it lol :D

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It might be an unintended consequence of a 'hard Brexit', maybe not immediately, but a break up of the UK would be more likely.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ervatives-warn

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Some wild speculation in that report. The DUP would never accept such a position, and nor would the Government.

A solution to the border issue will be found. We just have to wait now for the EU to look at this positively with a view to finding a solution that they can live with rather than constantly rejecting Britain's proposals out of hand.

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The solution also has to avoid splitting the Tory party. This is the knife edge May is stuck on.

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Wondering who has the paddles,where the map is and who took the canoe?

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https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/09/2.gif Spot on.

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https://storify.com/services/proxy/2...dNfp_times.PNG
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...exit-7gs8nxs2h

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Interesting pod cast from Kent Radio's Jason Hunter.

Explains how ill prepared the Government is for Brexit is compared to the EU.

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Hardly wild speculation, it's a quote from a cabinet minister. I suspect the Chancellor, he seems to one of the few in TMs rabble to have his head half screwed on.

And why should the EU come up with any solutions ?
We're the ones that want the change, up to us to solve the issues and make sure proposals are workable and acceptable to all.

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The paddles were confiscated as they didn't adhere to the EU policies regarding shape, length and type of varnish.

The map was only a rough sketch in the sand, which sadly got washed away with the next incoming tide.

There is confusion regarding the canoe. A canoe was ordered initially, but there are now various expert opinions that we may need either a canoe, a kayak, or even a coracle :)

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Because they want a deal as much as we do, and they certainly don't want to endanger the peace process in Northern Ireland.

I suspect that the quote, if it was actually made, was in jest rather than in all seriousness.

As far as a General Election is concerned, TM has categorically stated that there will not be one, so why there is so much speculation about this is hard to fathom. A leadership election maybe, but certainly not a General Election with Labour apparently doing well in the polls. What a dangerous move that would be.

Given the unrest in the Conservative Party after the EU's rejection of Chequers, I really do think TM should announce at the Conservative Party Conference that we are going to go for a Canada type trade agreement. This would get tne country behind her.

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I love how optimistic you are over this.

I am not sure the EU either need or have to do anything, they are not the ones exiting from 750 treaties.

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Just as optimistic here as well.

Don't worry,after we leave they will all come chapping at our door trying to sell their products/industry/pie in the sky ideas ..

Just chill it will be fine and everything will work out fine.it always did/does :)

Onwards and upwards ..

187 days 10 hrs 26 min and 10 seconds :D

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Well, Boris thinks he can walk on water, Rees-Mogg will stand on the heads of his staff, Davis (being ex-Special Forces) can hold his breath for 5 hours, so there’s no need for any canoe, and anyone who says there is a need for a canoe is obviously a traitorous ‘enemy of the people’ who is trying to overturn a democratic decision and ‘talking down’ our glorious efforts...

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An article in today’s Sunday Telegraph puts it rather well:

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.
2. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
3. Violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.

So I say:

Any Brit who sides with the EU’s approach needs to re-evaluate.

Any Brit who wants to remain under this theology and behaviour should clear off if they can’t accept the Referendum result.

Any Remainer who doesn’t agree that the EU approach is theological is entitled to their opinion, but is reminded of the Referendum result.

Macron is acting as if he is the new Merkel and that is worse because his country is well up shit creek and he should fix that first.

Jeez, why do you Remainers want to have any part of that?

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It feels like voting to leave = jumping of a wall, only now that wall is actually 300 foot high, when everyone was sold the idea it was only 3 foot high.

In those circumstances must we all go along with jumping off that wall because the majority thought it was a good idea at the time? Or have enough of the majority changed their minds to stop this headlong rush over the edge?

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May has been treating the negotiations like a large family arriving late for a flight and asking for special treatment.
Arriving tired and late at the airport, her family are still all arguing about the type of holiday they want. Her older son Boris wants a cycling holiday. The younger twins want a beach holiday whilst her husband Philip wants to stay at home, cut the roses and watch the golf.
She insists that the holiday company should provide them with a holiday that does all of the above, even though they've been trying to clarify what she wants for two years, but the family has been too busy arguing with itself to give an answer!
:D

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This seems to be a variant of the standard Remainer’s answer. The edge in my definition is neither 3 feet nor 300 feet high. It is the border between the UK’s sovereignty and EU dictatorship at the behest of Germany and France.

Are you the sort of Remainer that wants to be part of Macron’s vision? Are you content to work with someone who is showing his true nasty colours?

---------- Post added at 15:49 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

My 3 enumerated points need to be taken together. By isolating #1, all you are doing is deriding May (instead of Macron which you should be doing). May is doing badly, but it has nevertheless brought out the worst in the EU and we should be pleased to get away from them.

So I ask you: do you accept the three axioms I have postulated and if not, why not?

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Those who still support leaving seem to have an odd faith in May and the government propped up by the DUP. Whilst I initially supported leave based on a lie and a wish to be rid of UKIP. I have zero faith in this government to prepare for Brexit, deal or no deal.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Ah done a survey have you ? Would you mind sharing the results please ?

Thanks Now :)