Re: Brexit discussion
 

And neither have we....

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We don't want anything...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not a good negotiating position, you must be from the David Davis school ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Or you just don’t read things maybe?! ;)

EU has warned May tonight that if MPs reject the Brexit deal, they will not renegotiate it’s terms. Putting the possibility of a no brexit deal back on the table, so I guess we owe our thanks to these rebel MPs after all.

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Journalist and Author Isabel Oakenshott schools Nicky Morgan on QT tonight (Morgan a staunch Remoaner at heart and one of the undemocratic rebels voting against the government last night).

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/...45872608534539

---------- Post added 15-12-2017 at 00:01 ---------- Previous post was 14-12-2017 at 23:33 ----------

And has this Northerner been reading my CF posts LOL?

The bit at end when he mentions the ballot paper...

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/...51380639911936

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Hahaaaaar! Priceless. The clever people are as dull as ditch water :D.

Barney and Jean's foppish flouncing is getting on my wick.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not always the case sadly if you look at our long and ancient history.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Our long and ancient history is nothing short of glorious. Have some pride in your Country, its people, its values and the gifts it constantly contributes to a better life worldwide.

If that's not winning, what is?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Indeed it is but lets not have airbrush conveniently the things we don't like from our history.

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

Having pride in your country does not exempt it from criticism.

---------- Post added at 10:22 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Its has some wonderful values but not everything is rosy in our garden unless one has rose tinted glasses on.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Airbrushing?
Bellyaching is endemic in gen snowflake.
Name one other Country that has a rosier garden.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/st...30669939249152

May is also reported to have been 'applauded by her EU counterparts' at a dinner yesterday and they're all being complimentary today. So progress.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And so we edge ever forward in TM's quest for an EU deal. You've got to hand it to her. How political fortunes can change in a very short time.

There will still be major hurdles to overcome as we proceed towards the end of this process. I should imagine that the naysayers on here who do not believe we will get a decent deal are appalled at these developments! Still, I'm sure they will find plenty of negative press reports to believe in for the time being.

I think that this is the time for TM to turn things around. Corbyn has enjoyed his moment of popularity. I'm sure he will look back on it with fondness for the rest of his days.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Upwards of 17.4m people are watching patiently, reservedly and with steely resolve.
I'm confident that Britain will permit the EU to have a deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Of course they’re applauding her, they’re getting £40 Billion pounds for virtually little effort.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's actually to the benefit of both sides once we get beyond the politicking.

---------- Post added at 13:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

They will only get that if we clinch the trade deal that we want.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Of course. They know that and we know that; an agreement is inevitable. There has to be political preening for the armchair observers. As long as Barney and Jean play nice, (Sir) David Davis will accommodate them :D.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think that now the money has been secured, the EU will be much more relaxed about all this, although I dare say there will be some dramas conjured up to make each side look good.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Best pantomime this Christmas. Oh, yes it is! :p:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I see that the in the transition period until 2021, we have to follow EU laws but career MEPs like Farage will no longer have a job in Brussels.

Whoever said there was nothing good about Brexit? ;)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...t-jean-claude/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You are confusing what the EU wants with what they will get, Andrew.

Whereas Corbyn in his weakness might well agree to that, Theresa will insist either:

1. That the ECJ ceases to apply to the UK after Brexit or

2. That the UK will continue to be involved in EU law as it applies to us during the transitional period.

Can you not see any positives at all with Brexit, Andrew? Just because the EU says something doesn't make it true.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What was this BS from the EU all this time about the clock is ticking?

Trade talks now won’t start still March, the EU is so full of Lying & Scheming toe rags. :afire:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU have made the point that they can't start until the government has agreed what they want in a deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I just started the main one - we won't be paying career MEP Nigel Farage a salary. :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It’s because the unaccountable, corrupt unelected bureaucarts need to consult and have guidelines signed off by the member states.

We did this one a while back where I asked people to take the opposite point. For me, the EU lacks agility due to its size and the restrictive rules on setting VAT were bad (see the ‘tampon tax’)

When I asked our leave friends to name something good about the EU, we got answers like ‘nothing’ and ‘we’re leaving’

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So, talks will formally begin in March 2018 once Theresa May has got her cabinet to agree what they want from a deal. Is the idea that these talks will last after March 2019 when we leave the EU and end sometime in 2021?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Meanwhile in the Eurolalaland utopia it's great to see there's no sign of any trend towards the right wing amongst all those welcoming Austrians we heard so much about...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42374693

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes, I remember that well.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

aye it the EU's fault our government have no idea what it wants and not even discussed it yet like

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:D:D:D

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It does not take 3 months to decide. So just shows this remark from the EU about the clock is ticking, was a steaming pile of BS from the EU, as usual.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

em they had 18 month to decide like and they party is more split that ever

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Both the main parties are split, Dave. 18 months may seem a long time, but this whole business is subject to a very tight timetable.

The government does know what it wants, but getting the wording right so it doesn't upset one faction or another is a nightmare.

Given that TM doesn't have a majority in the House of Commons, I think she is doing a brilliant job. Many did not think we'd get this far.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Looks like it will have taken the tardy British cabinet a staggering 21 months to decide but I'm sure if they decide earlier then the accommodating EU will be happy to meet them!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You tell such great jokes, Andrew.

I mean, 'accommodating EU'! Priceless!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

yes both paries are split but tories are split the most

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I wouldn't call it priceless, I'd call it a £44bn joke! :D

---------- Post added at 14:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

I'm afraid that you are confusing what you want with the reality of the EU's strong negotiating position.
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-tr...-says-11172610

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It shouldn't take 3 months to decide, to be honest we should know already, yet here we are...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Of course they know what they want. It's a question of detail now, getting the wording right over the more controversial issues.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Trouble is they all want different things. That's why the cabinet needs to come together on a common approach.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's true enough. However their arguments should be in private and not leaked to the press.

However, this is 2017!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They all write in the press. Boris Johnson is a Telegraph columnist and David Davis is very close to Paul Dacre, Daily Mail editor and has provided him with exclusives.
I suspect the members of the cabinet will be sure to use the press to push home their views.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So the cabinet is meeting to day to discuss what post Brexit relationship we want with the EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42385002

Shouldn't this maybe have been discussed on the 24th June 2016, not 264 days after invoking article 50?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Chaotic incompetence is what you call it sadly.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They know what they want, obviously, but this is about detail now, and negotiation tactics.

I have learned through experience of policy making that if you try to go into too much detail before a negotiation, you will have spent many wasted hours of work! We've learned a lot from our Phase 1 negotiations with the EU. Now we go for the jugular!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Our options are pretty limited as this article explains.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...s-are-limited/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Lol, the cabinet haven't a clue what they want, most of them having backed remain Those that do, want completely different things, mostly involving power for themselves

The public meanwhile are getting fed up with it all now they can begin to see the shambles unfolding, and the govt. letting everything that isn't Brexit rot.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ce-referendum/
Brexit is going to make most people in this country worse off, the penny is starting to drop.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

OMG an opinion poll saying nearly the same as before the referendum. They were wrong then what makes them right now?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

People are starting to see through the con-trick. Surprised the Tory press are admitting this .. I do think that the Telegraph is more balanced & honest than it's peers in the right of center media stable.

Another Telegraph article tells what David Davis's real opinion is about this whole process:

This incredible quote from 15 years ago is coming back to haunt David Davis



---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 14:10 ----------

The important bit you missed (or decided to ignore):

Also note:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The referendum was done properly. The was one thing and one thing only to decide. Remain in or come out of the EU. It was not a blank sheet of paper.

As regards the opinion poll, I didn't miss that point. It still doesn't mean it is a true representation of the whole of the nation. The referendum was.

Those that could be bothered to vote voted for Brexit by a majority. Those that couldn't be bothered can't winge about it now.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Never mind BMG, I am saying OMG, I cannot believe we are rehashing the same old stuff about how many voted vs. how many did not.

It does not matter. If people could not be arsed to vote, it is tough luck, their non participation for whatever reason when they had the opportunity to do so, they cannot be counted afterwards in a population percentage calculation vs. actual total turnout.

The Democratic process for brexit was the largest voter turnout in a generation and those that did turn out made their choice.

So that BMG poll is by far and wide irrelevant and inaccurate, a 1,500 sample size does not beat the 32,000,000 real sample size from the official poll done on June 23rd, 2016.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ooof - FT research shows that the weekly hit to the British economy could be the same £350m that Leave campaigners promised to claw back https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-...9-c64b1c09b482

Re: Brexit discussion
 

'Could be', being the key words.

And on what data are they basing this research on?

We have not left yet, so how such data can be erroneously predicted on a whim, is baffling, but I suppose yet again, this is fear mongering at it's finest from the hard line remainers and easily ignored.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Did you read the article? The methodology is all in there. It takes three different methods of projecting GDP growth (previous performance, measuring against peers and difference between forecast and the current reality to build 14 counterfactual scenarios) Note this article doesn't predict future performance but use current figures for the countries GDP. Even the Institute of Economic Affairs, a Pro Brexit think tank says the figures are reasonable.

However, you say the article is erroneous - which bits are wrong?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Did I read it, you ask?

Absolutely not, not a great fan of reading fiction.

Meanwhile, the DUP asked the Prime Minister today regarding Labour's ever so confusing stance on Brexit, as it changes like the wind direction, this time on a second referendum and insisting the PM enacts the results of the first referendum...

https://twitter.com/duponline/status/942803115698421760

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So you have no evidence that it is erroneous or fiction...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's just a forecast. Most forecasts about our economy have been incorrect, basically because far too much emphasis has been put to the negatives and not enough to the positives.

Obviously, if you pour bucketfuls of negatives into a container and mixed it all up vigorously, you should be surprised if the figures all come out as a minus!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes, like OB says, all other forecasts have been inaccurate so far... the one you posted falls in to the same realms of falsehoods.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

How do you know without reading it? Part of the article concentrates on how far out forecasts are and using this as a model for the counterfactual numbers. It is very open in the fact that both the negative and positive predictions were wrong. The article runs a meta analysis of various predictions. Most importantly it uses data from the last 18 months, not predictions of the future. But hey, what does the FT know about money

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Again, the article is analysis of the past 18 months, not the future. It shows the how the economy has performed and runs three different models to assess what the expected performance would be if we didn’t vote to leave, giving a total of 14 different models. The analysis used models from pro Brexit think tanks as well as establishment numbers.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Brexit is happening whether one likes it or not Mr K but what is most disturbing is the poisonous hate and incitement we are getting from parts of the media as it seems nothing has been learned or taken on board since the Jo Cox murder.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...threats-brexit

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Um, because you gave a brief outline of it before you linked to it possibly. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So what in my outline was erroneous or fiction?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Or Carl Sargeants's suicide which seems to have been forgotten about already - possibly because he wasn't the victim of a right wing nut case who's an easy target for those who only see 'nastiness' on the right of the spectrum. A brief search will reveal the sort of pressure he was exposed to by some very nasty lefty hypocrites....

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I couldn't see anything that ticked those two boxes. But in the words of Arron Banks, "Facts don’t work, and that’s it. The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success"

It was a blank sheet of paper in that the definition of what leaving the EU meant was left unclear.
Some interpreted it as leaving the ECJ, Single Market and Customs Union and some on this forum feel strongly that's what it meant. But many in the leave campaigns didn't position it this way. For example, Daniel Hannan stated "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market."

Re: Brexit discussion
 

and Labour, courtesy of the wonderfully talented Diana Aboott can't even manage to be a credible opposition...

https://order-order.com/2017/12/17/d...nd-referendum/

Pathetic hateful morons.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Denphone didn't mention left/right here. It's a problem across politics.

Jo Cox murder was so prevalent because it was the assassination of a sitting MP.

Carl Sargenant's inquest is still on-going IIRC and it's also complicated by the guidelines the media follows when reporting suicide.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More Brexit turkeys coming home to roost or a clever EU negotiating ploy?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tiator-barnier

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Still Sharing one sided rubbish I see Andrew from the crappy guardian.. :zzz:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I know you read The Guardian every day, tucked into a Daily Express so no one suspects. ;)

But on a more serious note, perhaps you can help me out by pointing out what's one-sided in the article I linked too, so I and others can be wary in the future.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I find it fascinating given that I don’t buy/read either or any other paper. ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l myself have not forgotten about anything as sadly whether it is from the extreme right or the extreme left it should be stamped out completely but sadly that is not happening as we continue to allow the hate and incitement to come out on a everyday basis and yet nothing gets done about and it continues to go on unimpinged sadly.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's one sided because it doesn't mention they need us at all, I've asked a few times what we will be selling the rest of the world that we don't currently do once we leave and no one seems to want to answer, the flip side of that is we will be buying from the rest of the world on much cheaper terms than we currently get from the EU, not giving us a deal closer to our expectations is as bad for them as it is us, no mention of that in the article but if a thicko like me can see it you can bet it's not lost on monsieur Barnier or his chums

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What will we be able to buy on cheaper terms from the rest of the world that is compatible with no hard border between GB, NI and Ireland? I don't think your reply takes into consideration the constraints the border agreement imposes. And I disagree with you calling yourself a thicko. :)
I think you may struggle with getting a straight answer from Brexiters about what we will sell that we don't already sell to the world. As we see on this forum, the lack of an answer can tell you quite a lot!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Hey 'order order', you forgot the 'nasty lefty hypocrites' bit..... :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If I've fallen for anything it's the no cake for anyone spin and I don't recall seeing much about the border in the article, you want to move the goalposts from your original question because it was so obviously a one sided article or something

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It’s nothing to do with not having an answer to your questions, it’s more to do with being being tired of seeing the same stuff being asked and questions having a theme of hypotheticals.

Also the questions are asked that you desire an answer that you require to be doom laden, to justify your negative fantasy that Brexit is a mistake. It is not a mistake, it was a democratic decision.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's possible to be both.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Just because it was a democratic (whatever that means!) decision doesn't mean it was right. Why do the so-called brexiteers feel so threatened that they have to attack any even slightly opposing view?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Because underneath a lot are equally uncertain about Brexit and they need to constantly reassure themselves it was the right decision. Any 'traitorous' voices saying otherwise must be blocked out. For people that supposedly 'won' they do seem to be constantly angry and unhappy. Life's going to be brilliant isn't it ? :erm:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's TheDaddy's and John's reasonable questions which have languished unanswered.

---------- Post added at 12:15 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

I don't try and argue with every point that people make (contrary to popular belief ;) but as you're seeking an answer on this one, the article was an interview with the EU's negotiator, not a commentary or analysis piece. It also states "In a blow to remain campaigners, Barnier contends that the UK would be unable to revoke article 50 unilaterally – a view at odds with the veteran British diplomat Lord Kerr, who wrote the famous treaty text and insists the UK can withdraw its decision to leave up until the last moment of departure. Asked whether the UK could unilaterally revoke article 50, Barnier said: “The clock is ticking. No changes in the process can be unilateral, they must be collective.”

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Good. Must fill you with joy!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't believe everything thee pesky Continental types tell you! :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Keep grasping at straws Andrew.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't need them mate. Still plenty of years left under EU rules (till 2021). The Irish border issue should ensure close alignment in the years after that. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Wow 20121?

I know you don’t want us to leave EU but I doubt the EU will be around then.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ha ha. I doubt the UK will be around then either!
So, two years under EU regs until 2021 then close alignment after that if we're to keep our Irish friends happy. I'm not too worried but wish we were a rule-maker as we are now and not a rule-taker as we will be post march 2019. Hey ho!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You're assuming we get a deal. The Tory rebels have successfully weakened the Governments negotiating position.

I would not be surprised if parliament is told "there's nothing for you to vote on as thanks to you we couldn't come to a good deal. No deal is better than a bad deal."

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not even Boris pretends no deal is better than a deal.
And a hard Irish border is incompatible with no deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So what you're saying Andrew that little will probably change at all and all this has been a complete utter waste of time and our money ! I'm utterly gobsmacked and surprised (not ) !

Politicians will look after their own skins first, and if that means keeping the country afloat all the better for us. Remainer Theresa is a genius. You can have Brexit; any similarities to the status quo are purely coincidental ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No no no, the Unitary Market, Union of Customs and European Justice Courts are completely different to what we have now :angel:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:D:D:D
We'll just follow other countries' rules without influencing them in our favour, as we do now!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Tut tut...

Two Anti-Brexit Political groups fined for breaching rules during EU Referendum...

https://news.sky.com/story/liberal-d...aches-11177197

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I know he didn't. I mentioned it because there's a hell of a lot of nastiness on the left which some people (not Den BTW) seem either oblivious to or unwilling to accept. It seems some of that nastiness was evident in the way Mr Sargeant was treated and whilst he wasn't murdered he was driven to suicide.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

UK Tops Forbes best Countries for Business in 2018, and yes even despite Brexit!!!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbad.../#10b8b80b26de

Remembers the totally inaccurate forecasts immediately following a leave result, "Market collapse", "Mass Unemployment", "World War 3", "Emergency Budget". :rolleyes: All turned out to be Fake News!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yeah but...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The 'but' is in the same article old chap if either of you had bothered to fully read it. If things are so good now why screw it up?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There was no but there Mr K, just a could.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is not being screwed up. Leaving is the best course for the UK. Just because you want it to screw up, for your own selfish reasons, doesn't mean it will. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Why would I want the UK economy to screw up? I'm a UK citizen, it would equally affect me and my kids.
(Maybe you should fully read an article first before linking to it ?? If there are bits you don't like you could call it 'partial fake news' if it makes you happy ;) )

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Because you keep banging the doom and gloom drum, everything you’ve said would happen right back to the days of the vote has not happened, in other words, you have been fundamentally wrong every time!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

OK, let’s be positive. What benefits will Brexit give us? What will the man on the street, Joe Public, see from Brexit? How will they be better off? What’s your vision of a successful end point in 2019 or 2021?

I asked you before but I guess you were busy. Give us ‘remoaners’ a boost!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

tbh Mick 'Project Fear' is starting to look like a nice dream ! At least we can sleep easy knowing the £350m a week for the NHS is coming ! Don't you find it slightly worrying that the Govt. are having to have a meeting between themselves this week to find out what they actually want from Brexit ?!???!! Even you must despair....