Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947482)

I think this is unlikely but interesting that it's even being mentioned nonetheless:

Subscription link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...lock-3ppzg9l3r
Also see non-subscription link https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ef=uk-homepage

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 35947533)

Mrs May is not good at publicity which is (unfortunately) too big a thing for the party to ignore. You could be the best at the job but if you can't show as being good at the PR stuff your chances are much diminished.

I can imagine the LD would be licking their lips at the chance to get in and throw the whole referendum out, after all an election win would be a mandate not to proceed.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35947537)

The question is what would convince them the outcome would be much different? The local elections might encourage the Tories in that Corbyn hasn't made further inroads it still suggested a hung Parliament, in fact it suggested one in much Labour are the biggest party.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947575)

The results of the local elections are no real guide to what will happen in a General Election. Only some council areas had an election anyway, and the results were skewed by London.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948486)

l think this just about sums up many politicians nowadays who can't give a straight answer to a straight question...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3849896.html

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948515)

Williamson is not up to the job, but Theresa has an ever decreasing pool of 'talent' e.g. Boris - Foreign Secretary - you wouldn't have got way with this as a joke 5 years ago....

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948515)

Williamson is not up to the job, but Theresa has an ever decreasing pool of 'talent' e.g. Boris - Foreign Secretary - you wouldn't have got way with this as a joke 5 years ago....

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948536)

Frightening isn't it? The most important time for this country in literally decades and it is being run by a bunch of infighting Amateurs with a bigger clown waiting to take over if this lot self destruct. Jeez .. you could not make it up.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35945242)

And lets remember here, so far, Conservative MPs who have accepted wrong doing in the cabinet have resigned when faced with tough pressure.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35951818)

Hands up who said "F*** business" Was it a) Diane Abbott b) Boris Johnson?

The answer is the latter. Is there no party which will stand up for hard-working job-creating companies?
https://www.ft.com/content/8075e68c-...7-1e1a0846c475

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35951818)

Hands up who said "F*** business" Was it a) Diane Abbott b) Boris Johnson?

The answer is the latter. Is there no party which will stand up for hard-working job-creating companies?
https://www.ft.com/content/8075e68c-...7-1e1a0846c475

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35951885)

Labour are not the party for business but the Conservatives who espouse themselves as the party for business are becoming the opposite of that as many close senior business friends of the Conservative party have started to voice their ire and displeasure more and more at the current shambles and lack of any clear plan.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...bs-theresa-may

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...ness-ncwfljkcm

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-06-24/a...usiness-party/

https://www.ft.com/content/8075e68c-...7-1e1a0846c475

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35951886)

The end deal will be favourable to business and to Britain. The Government actually wants businesses to plan for a no deal Brexit to show the EU negotiators that we are ready to pull out of a deal if necessary. This is a negotiation, and if you want to win a negotiation, you have to toughen up.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35951890)

In your biased entrenched view but many major UK business leaders and many of the populace do not share your rose tinted false optimism.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35951875)

That was aimed at the CBI, wasn't it?

Incidentally, there is little point linking to The Times or The Financial Times as they are for subscribers only and the rest of us can't read it. You could copy and paste the relevant parts that make your point, however.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35951886)

The end deal will be favourable to business and to Britain.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35951911)

How many times do people have to say...there is nothing to negotiate. You either agree to the founding principles of the EU, or you do not. You are not going to negotiate a FTA without resolving a soft border in Ireland...you don't get SM access, without free movement. You don't get to negotiate some pie in the sky position. You either accept it, or you don't. You don't get to "negotiate" your way out of it, though.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35951911)

What are you basing that notion on?



No, they want those preparations because they know that their "dear Leader" (May) is about the most incompetent leader on the planet.



How many times do people have to say...there is nothing to negotiate. You either agree to the founding principles of the EU, or you do not. You are not going to negotiate a FTA without resolving a soft border in Ireland...you don't get SM access, without free movement. You don't get to negotiate some pie in the sky position. You either accept it, or you don't. You don't get to "negotiate" your way out of it, though.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952035)

That is the part of this that you are not getting ; there is no deal to negotiate. Does not matter how many times over May says that it is a negotiation / process under way the "no" will mean just that from Brussels. No to SM access without FM, no to FT without CU membership etc. These are not negotiations - they are refusals.

If they go hard / a hard leave then there is nothing to negotiate. If it is soft / a soft leave then there are simply going to be rules and stipulations that the UK must abide by and given that it can't then perks are going to be forsakes I suppose.

The EU won't decide which option the UK goes for - but whichever it is, the UK will have to abide by whatever is required in return ; whether that be sacrificing access or independence. One or the other.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952056)

Ah-ha: someone else on the bandwagon now openly trying to convince everyone that nothing can be changed - everything is fixed - we are all doomed.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952098)

Hardly - I never thought that they were doomed if we left them alone in the first place, to begin with.



Chaimberlain was a coward but then again, he too was a Tory. Kind of like May - the coward wing of the party...until a real man (like Churchill comes along).

The last time I called May out, your delicate sensitivities got a little bent out of shape and you got all huffy, made up a load of crap and I had to school you some - this time I thought that I would spare you the embarrassment / indignity but you apparently seem hell bent, on going there.

People need strength and courage / commitment. May is pathetic and now you have resorted to comparing me to someone who appeased Hitler, just because someone spoke ill of your little princess.

Suck it up, some. I won't take this crap from you every single post.



Yeah but her life long dream was to be PM and like Hillary (who wanted the same equivalent as President) she has nothing left in her life. May is weak and pathetic ; strong and stable my ass - she is like a puppet with every cabinet member having their hand up her butt. Just depends who has the biggest hands I suppose.

You are correct - most would have given up long ago. She doesn't have a shred of dignity to do so. There is a word for women like her, you know it so I won't pollute the thread with it.

Want me to feel sorry for her that she can't keep the remainers and leavers in one piece? I thought a minute ago you said (and I quote) " that she has got us this far in the negotiations despite..."

You then follow it up with:

"Most would have given up long ago."

So what is it you want me to do - admire her resilience or pity her? Can't be both - you tell me. I am not the type to follow though - that is her.

I'll just try be a little more delicate about your fawning adoration of her - I would hate to upset you given what an admirable job you do, of defending her.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35952104)

Chamberlain had to deal with a country that wasn't ready for war and was scarred by the last one. He also, privately, seemed to be well aware he couldn't trust Hitler. The historical view of him as an idiot is unfair IMO.

I also don't think invoking WW2 is helpful here anyway.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952105)

Learn from history, Damien.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35952106)

That's in response to what?

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35952106)

That's in response to what?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952103)

I am not in awe of Theresa May, but I feel she deserves some credit for getting us where we are despite the adversity she faces

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952126)

Seriously, where is this exactly? What has she done that deserves this credit? The "adversity she faces" is all of her and her party's making.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952140)

Only those who don’t believe in democracy will fail to recognise what she has done.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952142)

Very strange statement ... :confused:

You know full well that it was her decision and her's alone to call the General Election that reduced her ability to make serious decisions and, consequently, led to the current near civil war within her party at a time when the country is on a precipice. You couldn't make it up ..

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35952104)

I also don't think invoking WW2 is helpful here anyway.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952177)

It's interesting to hear from one of our EU allies, Denmark. Put your head back in the sand anyone who's sensitive to analysis of the British Government.

https://www.omfif.org/analysis/comme...to-uk-economy/

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952260)

I didn't think so, either.

Then IDS came out with his opinion on the whole matter:

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-brex...ement-11419694



Again, I took it too personally from Old Boy. Little did I know that rather than thinking for himself, he was just taking talking points from CCHQ.

Guess that it wasn't his fault, after all.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952278)

It is just the usual rantings of a political commentator. Why should you believe such people rather than your own Government?

Oh, yes, you are batting for the other side so disruption and sowing the seeds of doubt are the name of the game! :D

Silly me!

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952288)

Do you honestly think the government is not as divided as the article states? I can only hope that best case scenario, you're being humorous :D

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952300)

Yes, both main political parties ate divided. So what?

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952312)

"So what?" A small distinction that one Party is trying to decide the future of the country for a generation or more.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952312)

"So what?" A small distinction that one Party is trying to decide the future of the country for a generation or more.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952316)

Well, I hope you will join me in applauding Theresa May when she announces the deal that so many pessimists and remainers say she will never get, and despite the odds you mention!

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952319)

I think if Ian and I both clapped loudly we'd be still be drowned out by your applause and cheering :D

On a more serious, it appears that if Theresa May ups her game and faces down the Brextremists in her party, the chances of a trade deal increase. So will you be cheering for BoJo or Therese May on this issue, Old Boy?

https://www.ft.com/content/2ec6ec00-...-1e1a0846c475?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952330)

It isn't as easy as that, Andrew. The Brexiteer members of the Cabinet are keeping TM atuned to their objectives because otherwise the remainers would wear her down. I am sure that whatever the actual shape of the eventual deal, we will exit the Customs Union for the simple reason that we want to expand our trade outside the EU. The Cabinet is united on its present position, but neither side want to give ground. However, both will have to compromise to a certain extent to get this right.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952609)

...
May and the EU negotiated on ECJ oversight for EU citizens and May said that there should be no oversight. In the end, both sides agreed that there would be oversight.

May and the EU negotiated on access to the SM without free movement and May said she would be willing to stay in the SM for goods but not services. In the end both sides agreed that the UK will be leaving the SM.

May and the EU negotiated on a divorce bill with many in the UK saying that the UK may not owe a cent / penny / Euro etc and the EU saying that the UK could be on the hook for 50 billion. In the end, both sides agreed to 40 million.

May and the EU negotiated on the length of the transition period. May had wanted 24 months or more and the EU said not a day over 18 months. In the end, both sides agreed to 18 months.

May and the EU negotiated the idea of concurrent trade talks while formalizing the Irish border issue. May said both could be done at the same time and the EU said the Trade agreements would come at the end of the progress on the Irish border issue. In the end, both sides agreed to discuss trade right at the end of the talks...

Correct, they want a deal entirely on their terms, let's see if they get it I suppose.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952626)

This is the reality of the negotiations to date. How anyone can feel Theresa May is doing a good job here apart from the EU is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952609)

The EU has said the UK can compromise on one front : allow NI to remain in the CU / have access to the SM to avoid a hard border.

That is it.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35952652)

But what then happens when Scotland & Wales decide they want the same thing?

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952609)

The EU has said the UK can compromise on one front : allow NI to remain in the CU / have access to the SM to avoid a hard border.

That is it.



Okay, but what if they don't succumb and offer anything? We've just wasted 2 to 3 years of British productivity and time for no good reason then.

There was a good article on May's ability to compromise...I can't remember where it was or I would link to it but it basically went along the lines of:

May and the EU negotiated on ECJ oversight for EU citizens and May said that there should be no oversight. In the end, both sides agreed that there would be oversight.

May and the EU negotiated on access to the SM without free movement and May said she would be willing to stay in the SM for goods but not services. In the end both sides agreed that the UK will be leaving the SM.

May and the EU negotiated on a divorce bill with many in the UK saying that the UK may not owe a cent / penny / Euro etc and the EU saying that the UK could be on the hook for 50 billion. In the end, both sides agreed to 40 million.

May and the EU negotiated on the length of the transition period. May had wanted 24 months or more and the EU said not a day over 18 months. In the end, both sides agreed to 18 months.

May and the EU negotiated the idea of concurrent trade talks while formalizing the Irish border issue. May said both could be done at the same time and the EU said the Trade agreements would come at the end of the progress on the Irish border issue. In the end, both sides agreed to discuss trade right at the end of the talks.

There were like 300 examples...the paper may have been the Guardian but to me it showed how unilateral / self executing her negotiation strategy is. In subservience, to the EU. If she didn't go through the first part of her nonsensical "negotiations" talking points, I would give her credit for at least being grounded in reality. (Though some have disputed that she needs to give the nationalists within her party some lip service from time to time, when she doesn't believe in it).

I agree that nobody should be surprised as to how long the talks are taking. I hope though that you will agree with me that nobody should be surprised as to how little the talks achieve, too. Unless May agrees to every single one of the EU's terms ; because they are setting the rules on everything through these discussions.



Ahh, so really they want to ask even more of her but she has to show that she is weak at home. Makes sense, it is the truth after all - hardly a cunning ploy of brilliant subterfuge given it's rather frank honesty and it does work to their advantage, too - never will they get so weak and pathetic a leader to take for a ride, as her. Best for them to keep her in Number 10, too I suppose.

One thing though...at the beginning of her stint of grand delusions why did she go about life with the whole "strong and stable" stuff?

:erm:

Also, if she is willing to be honest with the EU about how weak she is but continues to lie through her teeth to the UK public then does she not think more of EU diplomats / bureaucrats than the UK public?

Tsk tsk tsk...



This goes back to the whole "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" line...only junior ministers are already admitting that they have agreed to stuff. Like the divorce bill.



Correct, they want a deal entirely on their terms, let's see if they get it I suppose.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35952668)

No one has got it in for Theresa May as stop inventing conspiracies that we all have it in for her because you could not be further from the truth as many of us have voiced our opinions of her without being biased or lacking balance in our posts as its clear as night and day she ain't up to the job.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952671)

Not true, Den. Just your opinion, based on the time it is taking to get Brexit and other stuff through the House of Commons and her own party, it seems. Anyway, Chloe has already admitted it!

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952703)

Admitted what??

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35952652)

But what then happens when Scotland & Wales decide they want the same thing?

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35952709)

Andrew answered that perfectly in his post below and I would have said exactly that - differential agreements and the whining of Sturgeon and co is not the problem of Barnier and co.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952739)

Cabinet collective responsibility

It seems that there is now just a free for all in Cabinet. I am trying to think when this broke down but my memory is failing me. This current behaviour of Cabinet members (Gove, Johnson, Mogg, etc.) openly fermenting dissent against their PM is remarkable or has it always been this way?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952278)

Now, now, Chloé, and I was beginning to like you! ;)

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952753)

If Theresa May was the strong and successful Prime Minister that Old Boy believes her to be, she would have grounded Boris Johnson (literally ;)) and insist that he either votes with the Cabinet or resigns. Instead, she allowed him to evade collective responsibility and set an appalling precedent.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35952772)

So, and this is the essential question, is Mrs May trying to construct a deal to keep the Tory Party together or is her priority the country at large?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952056)

The EU certainly has a choice. Start negotiating or the UK becomes your aggressive competitor. Their choice.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952103)

Well, you've certainly twisted that nicely, Chloé!

Originally Posted by Old Boy

Ah-ha: someone else on the bandwagon now openly trying to convince everyone that nothing can be changed - everything is fixed - we are all doomed.

This is the same kind of mentality Churchill faced in the late 1930s with Hitler, with the majority of the Commons arguing that appeasement was the only option, and interestingly, the public disagreed with their politicians then too.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35952897)

Sadly the Conservative party are just as much in denial with Islamophobia as the Labour party are with Antisemitism.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hin-tory-party

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35952986)

You'd have thought they'd have learnt from Corbyn's mistakes. Clearly not.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35952316)

Well, I hope you will join me in applauding Theresa May when she announces the deal that so many pessimists and remainers say she will never get, and despite the odds you mention!

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953653)

Looking forward to reading more about you applauding Theresa May, Old Boy. :D

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35953660)

Doubt it. If the backbenchers have their way she's on her way out.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35953660)

Doubt it. If the backbenchers have their way she's on her way out.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953653)

Looking forward to reading more about you applauding Theresa May, Old Boy. :D

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35953772)

Well, she certainly tried to force her hand!

WTO, here we come, with TM still in charge. And Jeremy agonising over his bus fares, which is proving rather a difficult nut to crack. Maybe he should ditch the idea and move on to litter.

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35953833)

With all due respect he's addressing issues that many of us want to be addressed.Someone has to speak up about the appalling transport system that we have as the present government seems unable to sort it out.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35953887)

You are right, Maggie, but right now the priority is Brexit.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35953892)

Governments who take their eyes off the ball are usually punished at the ballot box whether its Brexit or not..

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35953908)

I think practically everyone's eyes are on Brexit, Den!

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35953887)

You are right, Maggie, but right now the priority is Brexit.

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35953944)

For you maybe..but for some just getting to work is more of a priority..

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35953988)

It would be a bit boring if politicians just talked about one subject. I suspect Corbyn is looking for a subject to unite his party as his party is divided on the subject of Brexit as well.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35953991)

A poor and underfunded transport system affects us all as this is just one story from the many that are out there where someone is affected by a our transport system..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-hospitals-gps

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35953990)

I think his point in highlighting certain non Brexit issues is to underline how useless the present government are at sorting out those issues..Transport being the most visibly failing one.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35954019)

Yes Transport problems are a priority but it is not a top of the list one.

It's not something that can pack-a-punch back at the government.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954509)

Theresa May's approval rating dips to new low.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...neral-election

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...hows-nb6hwfv97

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35954512)

After watching her on the Andrew Marr show i would suggest it's gone even lower she is incapable of answering the questions put too her ,you could tell by here shaky voice she is deceiving us .

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954520)

So the great deceiver who you voted for has turned out to be the big great fraud l gather?.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35954538)

And if she is brought down then what Conservative politician do you replace her with? as the many potential candidates are not that popular as many of them are polarising figures according to voters.

https://news.sky.com/story/who-could...ssors-10910722

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35954554)

And are they sure they can ride out a new leader without an election and this wafer thing majority for the next 4 years?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35954561)

If they pick a good successor to May who has the courage of their convictions and makes the right decisions on Brexit, an early election would be nothing to fear from the perspective of the Conservatives. They cannot govern effectively without a good majority in Parliament.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35954563)

Or they screw it up and Corbyn is in charge of Brexit.

Incidentally Corbyn clearly loves Brexit since the EU would stop him from implementing the 1970s, everything is nationalised, country he wants.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35954563)

Or they screw it up and Corbyn is in charge of Brexit.

Incidentally Corbyn clearly loves Brexit since the EU would stop him from implementing the 1970s, everything is nationalised, country he wants.