Re: US Election 2016
 

Wonder if Obama will leave a note telling Trump the money's all been spent too... :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

But both were in response to Russian misdeeds, just like Obama's was - should he not have done anything, then been called "soft" for no action?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Either way, Putin is not biting to Obama's stupid moves before he leaves office, infact he has invited the US diplomats in Russia, to bring their kids along to a get together at the Kremlin.

http://news.sky.com/story/putin-no-e...tions-10711864

So much for a smooth transition for Trump, so far, useless prancing idiot Obama said he would have won if he had gone for a 3rd term, don't think so clown, seeing as Clinton was going to carry on your disastrous policies and she thankfully didn't win.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Ah, how lovely.... A nice tea party, wouldn't drink anything if I were them. Litvinenko RIP .

Re: US Election 2016
 

He could have left the report on Trump's desk for action rather than announcing it to the public at this time. All looks opportunistic and designed to cause maximum damage.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You miss the point, as always. Obama trying to spark a fight, Putin not playing to Obama's tune. I am not interested in such conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:

Re: US Election 2016
 

What, the report Trump doesn't believe is true?

If he had left it, he would have been called lazy and a coward for not doing anything - in fact, Paul Ryan and the majority of the Republican Congress and Senate don't believe he has gone far enough...:(

Re: US Election 2016
 

Conspiracy theories mmmm....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pois...der_Litvinenko

The Donald has nice mates. It's a also disgrace that our own government has quietly forgotten about this state sponsored murder on British soil.

Re: US Election 2016
 

So what do you expect them to do ? Go Arrest Putin ? As I said in my last post, I'm not interested.

---------- Post added at 16:57 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

We know how far Hillary Clinton would have gone, she once stated if she was President, she would have treated cyber attacks like any other attack and responded with serious political, economic and military responses. So that's a nuclear world war averted then.

Re: US Election 2016
 

What would you have recommended Obama do?
a) Leave it in Trump's in-tray?
b) Do nothing.
c) Follow Paul Ryan's lead and impose harsher sanctions?

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm sure Donald's delighted that he's getting such a smooth handover... :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

I would lay a bet on that in 2017. Someone will try and bump Trump off.

He will cause so much trouble for America. That people will say enough, is enough.

I bet the first time Trump meets Putin, he will say 'thanks for your help in the election '

It should be Clinton at the White House. She has multiple experience in Politics

Re: US Election 2016
 

so a political and economic response is the same as a nuclear war then,seriously Mick you need to stay of the coffee :rolleyes:

Anyhoo the donald has been summoned next week to see the evidence for himself .
As for the kremlin tea party for the US diplomats kiddies ,there's just something really creepy about that .

Re: US Election 2016
 

Same crap Arthur, different day. ;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

I trust Obama over Putin and America over Russia. It's just not just them though. Our own security services think Russia is one of the biggest threats and despite my reservations over the snoopers charter I certainly trust them over Russia too.

Russia are intentionally exploiting divisions within the West for their own interests. Wether it's the National Front in France, the far-right opposition in Russia, the far-left here or Trump in America. They are not on the side of the right or left of any of these nations, they're on the side of Russia.

Re: US Election 2016
 

So whats your solution ? You would prefer a nuclear conflict with Russia : Remember what I said above about Clinton and that she would respond with Military action as a potential response to cyber hacking. So she would have responded with military action and thats the world plunged into a bloody nuclear conflict, what a fantastic start to 2017. :rolleyes:

Re: US Election 2016
 

No ,that is not what she said at all and you know it ,stop making crap up

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think we do what America, Europe and the UK have been doing. If Russia diplomats are interfering or otherwise undermining the best interests of our nation we expel them and we impose sanctions on Russia. Their military is not in great shakes and their economy is worse. Economic sanctions hurt them.

What we do not do is forget about it and appease them just because of an implied threat. Russia should not dictate to us what the terms of our relationship should be, they should face resistance in their attempt to damage our interests and our democracies.

No one wants to escalate this with military action but Russia should not be allowed to take shots at us without retribution. The idea we should just suck it up because it's Russia will only be met with Russia pushing their luck further.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Really?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/clinton-us-...-china-1579187

Re: US Election 2016
 

Russia are not going to take any more economic sanctions lying down, I still don't believe Russia held 63 million Trump voters at gun point, and as I pointed out, Clinton and the US wanted to put their own interests first back in 2006, when Clinton said they should have done something in the 2006 Palestine Elections to determine who was going to win? We had this discussion pages back !

Re: US Election 2016
 

Yes really .no where in the entire article does she ever mention using nuclear weapons as retaliation for a cyber attack and if you believe that then you are as deluded as Mick .What she said was


Which is a very long way from nuclear war as Mick said ...twice

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------

Between Dumb Ass Trump and Crooked Tillerson Russia won't have any worries about sanctions from the US

Re: US Election 2016
 

You quoted Mick as saying (your bold)

With the response

However she did.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Lol and with her saying that, any kind of military response towards Russia, is going to be met by nuclear retaliation from Russia, hence my original point about a nuclear conflict being averted, still standing.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It's Mrs May that is wrong if she thinks Israel is democratic. Still I have every faith that the donald will let them down to just like he has with pretty much every promise he's back tracked on during his campaign

Re: US Election 2016
 

Are you saying the Israeli govenment was not democratically elected?

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm saying Israel isn't a democracy

Re: US Election 2016
 

Mick seems to think that nuclear is the default response here's his posts

and again
nobody mentioned nuclear ....apart from Mick ...again :rolleyes:

He's twisted statements to say things that weren't said .A military response or a economic response or a political response (depending on what is justified) is not by any stretch of the imagination a nuclear response as Mick keeps suggesting

Re: US Election 2016
 

Was the government democratically elected?

Re: US Election 2016
 

You cannot have a Jewish state that is a democracy ,it's one or the other

Re: US Election 2016
 

That does not answer the question. All it requires is yes or no.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Good luck with that. martyh makes his own crap up as he goes along and still argues black is white and he suggests to others to stay off the coffee :rolleyes:

...He has pointed out twice now, that I have said 'Nuclear response', no that is not what I said, I said Nuclear conflict, because that is the end result. Doh!

It does not take a genius, to work out that a military response aimed towards Russia, sparks off a Nuclear world conflict, because they are not going to respond back with a smile.

Let's have a look at the Scenario:-

US Military Response > Russia > Russia engages in full Nuclear strike back against US > US Allies with Nuclear capability, engage in Nuclear strike back against Russia > World War III.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It's not a yes or no answer at all, unless you're ignorant enough to believe apartheid south Africa was democratic to, then it is as simple as yes or no

Re: US Election 2016
 

Are you assuming that Russia would retaliate with nuclear weapons or is such a scenario evidence-based?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Doh, what the hell do you think they would do Andrew ?

A major country declares war on Russia, because to respond militarily, you are automatically declaring war on them. You think they are just going to ignore that they have nuclear war heads?

Re: US Election 2016
 

If and it's a big if the US was to take any military action against Russia it would eventually escalate beyond initial intentions including the use of nuclear weapons be they tactical or strategic. Putin has made it very clear that no military attack on Russia would go unanswered and once one starts it it will quickly escalate. Clinton was very happy to antagonise and provoke the Russians and obama as with most things sat on his backside and said and did nothing. I'm no fan of putin personally i think he's dangerous and is a threat but Russia has a large nuclear arsenal and that means different rules for them like it or not.

Re: US Election 2016
 

There are a number of actions short of military we can do. Not everything has to escalate to nuclear war. However we're sort of doomed anyway if that's the attitude because Russia can just continue do whatever they like if we just surrender because they have nukes.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You are Alan Fry and i claim my £100

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

So for the totally ignorant amongst us ,Israel cannot be a true democracy because they are a Jewish state .A Jewish state is for Jews only ,they may well have an elected Parliament (of sorts) but it is only elected by Jewish voters ,the Palestinians barring a few thousand do not get a vote

Re: US Election 2016
 

Interested in this. So would you say only truly secular nations can be a democracy?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Same rules as has always been .Russia has always been unpredictable there's no change there ,the only real difference is that Trump will let them get away with it because he's an idiot

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

No not at all.A country aligned with religion could be a democracy if it allows non believers a say in how the country is run .The UK is defined as a Christian country but we allow Muslims and all other religions a vote ,Israel does not allow most Palestinians to vote from a Palestinians point of view Israel is a dictatorship

Re: US Election 2016
 

Fair enough. Thought you were making a different point. :dunce:

Re: US Election 2016
 

Out of the two horrendous options i do think trump is better then clinton but given how low the bar has been set that's not really saying much. Trump i think as a president will be the same as trump the businessman driven by ego the only plus point is he can't wield great power on his own and we can only hope congress and the senate keep him in line. The often quoted reason some give as why clinton would have been better is because of her political experience not sure i buy that as valid given the lousy politician she's been in the last decade. Interesting times ahead that's a certainty lets just hope at the end things are on an upward motion.

Re: US Election 2016
 

We have Nukes too but do you think we stand a cat in hell's chance of winning them? And you keep saying Russia gets to do what it likes by putting it's interests first, well so does the US !

Re: US Election 2016
 

Yes but I prefer we and the US win in the battle of influences. A world where Russia calls the shots is worse for the UK, worse for Eastern Europe and worse for the US.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm more worried about the new kid on the block - China - who're quietly beavering away like ants building islands in the South China see and buying up swathes of Africa and SA. America and exerting their influence accordingly.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Reminds of our colonial past.. whereby we never purchased foreign lands we just took the lands.

Re: US Election 2016
 

BREAKING: Ford Cancels $1.6bn Mexico Plant due to Pressure from President-Elect Donald Trump:-

http://news.sky.com/story/ford-cance...trump-10717038

Re: US Election 2016
 

I wonder if there's more to this deal, like there was with the carrier plant once the surface was scratched, the devil is in the detail

Re: US Election 2016
 

There's a suggestion that it may be enough to ensure that trade with Mexico remains free of tariffs. Stuart Pearson, an auto analyst at Exane BNP Paribas, said: “The question now is whether this move by Ford is a sufficient win for Trump to ease the risk of tariffs on Mexican imports. “With the president-elect able to present this as a win for his trade policy, he may backtrack from threats to impose tariffs on imports.”

Re: US Election 2016
 

We'll see if something more comes out but for now it is a success for Trump, no point denying him that. Jobs staying in the US, even if so far it's relatively few, is what he said he would do. There may well be more such achievements to come and speaking as someone who is mildly terrified of Trump I would much rather see his Presidency be stories like that instead of the almost facist traits he has displayed.

Re: US Election 2016
 

At face value, one tweet creating 700 US jobs is an impressive return on Trump's time!

Re: US Election 2016
 

And there we have the problem. You are comparing chalk with cheese. No one contests the UK as being a free sovereign state (except the EU).

Palastinians do not recognise Israel as a free sovereign state, if they did then they would have a vote and be able to put their own parties forward along with the two existing arab parties in the next Israeli election.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You are completely missing the whole point about the nuclear deterrent, which is that they are there to deter, not to use.

Russia is well aware, as is the US, that a nuclear war between the superpowers may well end life on Earth. Only ISIS wants that.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Agreed, that would be my perspective as well.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I don't agree at all. I'm sure Russia has not spent a fortune upgrading it's nuclear capability, to never use it and use it, they would, if they felt under threat from another Super power, say USA or China.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I don't agree with your disagreeing.

Having lived through the bottom twitching times of the 60's, 70's & 80's and the constant fear of the 4 minute warning, it's quite safe to say that something fairly spectacular would have to spook either super power before any instant sunshine was launched, it will never be something undertaken lightly, I suggest you go look up M.A.D. strangely enough it has worked for the last 60 years or so, that suggests there may be something to it.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I agree with you in principle, that said, things have come a long way from 60 years ago, including personalities, it is ignorant to suggest a country won't consider launching a nuke or two if under duress.

North Korea, keeps threatening to nuke the US saying it is working on the possibility of a Nuclear missile capable of reaching the US. However, such threats, are just brushed off as the usual rhetoric from them.

Yes I agree, it is in extreme circumstances, but as I already said, a country, like Russia, with such capability and that was put under duress, through a military attack, I doubt would just look at it's nuclear arsenal and forget about using them.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Some interesting analysis of Trump's options here. Everything from playing pat-a-cake to putting Pyongyang into orbit.

Re: US Election 2016
 

American politics is so dysfunctional. Now there is a discussion if the Democrats can block any nominee Trump appoints to the Supreme court: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...-court-nominee

Re: US Election 2016
 

Oh, the irony....

Re: US Election 2016
 

Something has to give, you can't have this level of partisanship, it's going to destroy them. You've got a serious problem when your political opposition in the same country as you are bigger enemies than anyone else.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Because there is no feasible plan of action at the present time. It's brushed off because it at present isn't an issue large enough to consider solving. It will become an issue though and then they will have to deal with it eventually. I'm confident North Korea would launch a nuke if they had the capability. There's a no win scenario with them now or in the future.

Everyone that has Nukes has every possibility of using them. It's easier to see it that way. Although the most likely first launch will be North Korea or a launch via cyber attack (See 2010 '45' minute incident)

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://news.sky.com/story/trump-thre...plant-10719189

Trump is going to cause major problems with Mexico. What has Mexico one to Donald Trump for this to happen.

Most of the cheap labour that helps USA tick comes from Mexico.

I was in America several years ago. And we were told by the hotel, don't go too far on International Drive. As there is an Mexico workforce on the Work Plaza there.

All these companies are going to say enough, is enough. And do not dictate to us. Where we can build products.

Ford probably ran scared of Trump.

I reckon within the first 12 months, someone will take a pop shot at him.

In London at the American Embassy, there is bound to be demos on his Presidents day. Its like when he won the election day - apart from thanking Russia, for there help -there were demos in London at the Embassy

Re: US Election 2016
 

Your disturbing obsession with a presidential assassination attempt continues.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You really have this problem Arthur of not thinking first before you type !

Ford did not run scared of Trump - If you actually bothered to spend time thinking, reading things thoroughly, you would not gob off before putting brain in gear. Ford were actually swayed by their confidence in Trumps plans for growth, less regulations, lower tax tariffs and the burden companies were faced with when it comes to Obamacare, that healthcare stuff you keep assuming is free.

Not sure what significance protests at the American Embassy in London will achieve, pretty much zero difference or impact just like protests in Washington DC will have.

Not even going to bother replying to rest of your post, I'm not in the habit of repeating myself over and over and over and over and over again. Oh look, irony.

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38526570

Comes to something when the Donald seems to trust Putin more than his own security services. Wonder what some of his Republican colleagues are beginning to think about this ? They can't all be mad.
Is it possible to impeach a President elect ?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Well I think this is a open and shut case:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/01/14.jpg

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think this analysis is interesting.
It suggests Trump writes his angry tweets himself on his Samsung whilst the more presidential tweets are sent from his team on an iPhone. http://varianceexplained.org/r/trump-tweets/

Re: US Election 2016
 

Presidency by twitter ,who'd a thunk it

Re: US Election 2016
 

What's happened to all that anti-Trump social unrest we were told was sweeping America? Maybe it's gone the same way that all the xenophobic attacks, which we were told would result from the referendum result, went eh? How very odd...

Re: US Election 2016
 

That isolated unrest which was completely peaceful and resulted in arrests because they were smashing shops to pieces and weren't actually protesting anything but rather using it as a reason to loot and cause riots because they're just thugs and couldn't actually care less about who was President? Those guys?

Or there was the bunch of drunk students chanting crap whilst marching down the street.. again the majority just doing it for what they described as the 'lulz'

Completely swept the nation and North Korea were luckily on hand to launch there 600MT Nuke to protect the world and stop it spreading.

Thankfully it appears American media sources can be horribly wrong and completely OTT and full of it.

There's a few episodes of South Park that cover these events pretty amazingly with the same level of sarcasm I've used vs reality of the situation.

Re: US Election 2016
 

People can't have they level of anger and activity for long. They released the worst of it those weekends but constant riots were unlikely.

These kinds of divisions don't disappear though. America is still very divided, dangerously divided, and it's going to be a problem. The same applies here. There is deep division and anger in people and it's concerning.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Very refreshing, not sanitised by the white house press corp. long may it continue. It seems to get results.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Let's hope he doesn't have a 'total war' app on his Samsung. He'd probably forget which side he's on...

Re: US Election 2016
 

Yes, because the best way to communicate to other governments and set national and international policy is by sending 140 characters at 3am in the morning..

You say 'refreshing', I say 'egotistical and unthinking'...

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://news.sky.com/story/putin-orde...hiefs-10720287

I think that this said it all for me. And don't forget during his campaign Trump did say ' lets wait and see, what the result will be'

I have a sneaky feeling, that he knew what was happening.

He will be causing unrest in USA. Especially with what is happening with Mexico

Re: US Election 2016
 

This is more worrying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38538002

Re: US Election 2016
 

The only person who affected Hillary's chances, was Hillary herself. She is the one who is as bent as they come, she is the one who led disastrous policies as Secretary Of State. The DNC backed the wrong candidate and they could have had Bernie Sanders, but no, they stitched him up by rigging the Primaries to get who they thought was their star candidate. Backfired big time and it served them right in the end.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Obviously, all the US Intelligence agencies are lying, and Putin and Assange are America's best friends, and have long been it's strongest supporters, with never a bad word or action to undermine it...

Re: US Election 2016
 

The bloke needs to keep away from his phone ,you simply cannot run a country like the USA by Twitter ,whatever that idiot does or says on Twitter will affect the rest of the world

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

The fruitcake has blamed the intelligence agencies agencies for allowing it to happen :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 09:43 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------

Denial much? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Trump is far too arrogant to backtrack after all the tweets he put out defending Putin and the Russian regime

Re: US Election 2016
 

Hillary was a high-risk choice but the hacking helped support the branding of her as Crooked Hillary. That must have been worth some votes.

But I'm sure Trump will be keen for this to be buried and he's masterful at setting the news agenda, so won't need to backtrack.

Re: US Election 2016
 

No worries.

It may not be "presidential". But I think there is something to be said for it. Potentially a president the communicates away from the suits.

Will it continue after inauguration? If it does will it be him? Probably not.

But I hope he does.

---------- Post added at 20:38 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Thing that makes me laugh is that it is deplorable that Russia allegedly hacked the Democratic Party and fed information, although it's all true, to wiki- leaks that did not change the outcome of the US election.

But it is no problem for the US media to " wholesale" publish stories of the republican candidate, also true, but nobody gives a toss. Which also didn't change the outcome of the election.


This current circus would shame Billy Smart.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Apparently Trump's inauguration plans have been leaked....

https://mobile.twitter.com/Fred_Deli...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Re: US Election 2016
 

Ha ha..............ha ha................................ha ha................................................ .ha. Yawn.

Re: US Election 2016
 

:rofl:

I find this an interesting viewing....

Russia DID NOT Hack The DNC - John McAfee Lays It Out :-

Re: US Election 2016
 

Russian state sponsored TV channel insists Russia didn't hack the election.

Pardon me while I attempt to suspend my disbelief.

Re: US Election 2016
 

John McCafee is not Russian though Chris.... and if you going to be over precious about who interviews him, I can get a well established American host, such as Larry King for you...

Here you are...



:rolleyes:

Re: US Election 2016
 

I believe the intelligence services of America and Britain over McCafee..

Incidentally the allegation is not that they hacked the election itself but hacked the DNC in order to help Trump.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Well I don't believe it - I am not that naive enough to just believe crap like that when they (The FBI) have not even accessed the DNC servers !!!

Re: US Election 2016
 

It was more Information Warfare than hacking - releasing things to move "hearts and minds".

You mean the same FBI who issued a damning press release about Hillary Clinton the week before the election, and then stated there was no issues....

What the actual reports said...

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

Anyway, it wasn't just the FBI - are you saying they all got it wrong?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Yes, if so be it.

What I am saying is there is NO hard evidence whatsoever, no forensic examination of the DNC servers, ever took place by the FBI or the NSA and they never asked to look at them either.

Re: US Election 2016
 

However, had it been the US media that broke it, and called it a journalistic scoop instead of wiki leaks it probably would have been fine.

Re: US Election 2016
 

As long as they didn't get it from Russia then probably yes. There is a difference between the press doing something and a foreign state doing it. :confused:

Re: US Election 2016
 

I am in no doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and in fairness Mick the information that was released proves it or are you saying they were just really good guesses there's only so far you can go before it becomes stupid. It was clearly in Russia's interest to have a trump victory rather then a clinton one and it's completely plausible and likely they undertook nefarious means to further that agenda. I loathe clinton as well but you cannot just discount everything that happened because of the dislike for her Russia is playing some very dangerous games at the minute and they do need to reined in before they go too far and like many others i have little faith that trump is the man to do it unfortunately.

Re: US Election 2016
 

But you're naive enough to believe the crap Russia puts out about how they didn't do it and they just wanna be fwends :rolleyes:

Re: US Election 2016
 

But at the same time, surely to come to a conclusion that you were going to be so bold enough, to accuse another 'Super Power' Country, that they influenced the US Election, surely a thorough examination of the hacked DNC servers by that same Investigatory body, is essential? Not just say, 'oh well, Clinton lost the Election but we agree with the DNC, it's Russia's fault, we have absolutely no need to check out your servers, so you must be right.'
It is absolutely laughable, that this is being spun out they way it has been. :rolleyes:

The only person who is to blame for losing the US Election, is Hillary Clinton and then the DNC, for believing she could win it.

The DNC should have not stitched up, Bernie Sanders by rigging (or should we say, influencing, if the shoe fits, the DNC can be accused of influencing as well) the Primaries in Hillary's favor and giving her the questions before going in those TV debates with him.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm pretty sure the Good old US of A has influenced, if not directly intervened in many a foreign election if it so suited them.

Re: US Election 2016
 

How does Statements forensically prove anything ?

In basic science of proving someone or something has done something, we don't rely on just what someone says. Where is the hard evidence ? The servers were not examined by the FBI and they never asked for access to them to check them.

And it is like McCafee says, Russian intelligence, if it was actually guilty, wouldn't use a year out of date, malware program and that they would not be so stupid enough to have an IP address that links back to the hackers in Russia. It's basic IT lesson 101, if you going to hack in to someone or something, don't leave an obvious trace that points back to you.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Do you seriously think that the security services in America have accused Russia of messing with the election without evidence ,if you do think that then you are on a different planet to everyone else and don't forget there will be plenty of evidence that hasn't been released for security reasons.Also don't forget that Trump has now accepted in the face of the evidence shown to him that the Russians did mess with the election or at least try too because he has stated that it is the security services fault for allowing it to happen

Re: US Election 2016
 

The President-Elect's Chief of Staff disagrees with you, Mick, and states that Trump thinks the Russians are behind it...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...DB&via=FB_Page

Re: US Election 2016
 

Well, let's have a look, you even have President's trying to influence foreign Elections or referendums, right under our noses.... and not that long ago either.....



---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

I couldn't give a crap if he does or doesn't, it does not change my view.