re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's no restriction on spending outside the official campaign period.

Once we get within 28 days of the vote the gov is not allowed to do anything to influence the vote (the "purdah" period).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes but as Osem has said they can spend millions beforehand to promote their stance.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leaflets, poster campaigns, hoardings etc. etc. paid for in advance aren't suddenly going to disappear when the deadline is reached are they.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Been having a bit of a dig around the electoral commissions website and found this

http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...ampaigners.pdf

This bit is quite interesting

I don't know if i'm reading this correctly but it appears that Cameron has breached the rules

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

NO he hasn't. The IN or OUT will be run by 2 seperate entities not tied to the govenment in power. They will be cross party entities.

I don't agree with it but there it is.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

The propaganda might not make it to your bin yet. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:tu: i am in the same union as the posties if it is delivered its going straight in the bin anyway

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sticking a NO JUNK mail on my door so the postman knows

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yet they don't mind posting other leaflets/carp through the door - if they bin them, they should be disciplined; what next, they decide they don't want to post UKIP/Lib Dem/etc leaflets through your letterbox?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh I might have a read. Need a good laugh at the moment. Anyhoo it's only gonna tell us what they have been saying all along so why waste money putting it in print?

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 14:28 ----------

Well I'll need to burn some rubbish in the garden so it will make good kindling.

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:29 ----------

Not sure on that one. I'm not sure of the legality of the postie delivering leaflets. Do they have to deliver them?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It depends on whether the leaflet is classified as "post". That is the only thing they are legally obliged to deliver AFAIK.

IMHO unless it's in a personally addressed envelope then it's not post.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fairly sure they do simply because it's their job and that's what they get paid to do ,they have no more right to refuse to deliver the leaflets than you or I have to only do selective bits of our jobs

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The answer's here https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...al-material%3F

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To quote a post i saw on Facebook

A farmer named Sam was overseeing his herd in a remote hilly pasture in Hereford when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.

The driver, a young man in a Brioni® suit, Gucci® shoes, RayBan® sunglasses and YSL® tie, leaned out the window and asked the farmer, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, will you give me a calf?"
Sam looks at the man, who obviously is a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing animals and calmly answers, "Sure, why not?"

The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell® notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3® cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.

The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop® and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg, Germany ...

Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot® that the image has been processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL®
database through an ODBC connected Excel® spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry® and, after a few minutes, receives a response.

Finally, he prints out a full-colour, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet® printer, turns to the Farmer and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."

"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Sam.

He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.
Then Sam says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"

The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"
"You're a Member of the European Parliament", says Sam.
"Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"

"No guessing required." answered Sam. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of pounds worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep.

Now give me back my dog.

AND THAT Friends IS WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That refers to the royal mail as a company ,it wouldn't be ok for postmen to refuse to deliver certain mail just because they don't approve of it ,such as Camerons planned leaflet drop

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Geez, that's an old one but true!

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

The link was in reply to @Osem's post which explains what Royal Mail are responsible for delivering under the contract they have.

If you used a tiny portion of your brain you would see that post delivery personnel would be in breach of contract if they failed to deliver the leaflets and would be liable to dismissal.

The leaflet is not mail, it has been classed as a public information leaflet which Royal Mail must deliver.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

"It is not possible for Royal Mail to separate material you don’t want from those you do want

For example: advertising offers or leaflets or (typo corrected) material from Central and Local Government and other public bodies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which is basically what i said and since you didn't bother to quote Osems post how are people supposed to know what you are replying .Your reply was directly after mine so the natural assumption is you are replying to me .Next time try to be clearer

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well if you were in correct in what you said then hey ho. Problem is it does not apply to Royal Mail "as a company". It goes back to the days of the GPO which you most likely don't remember.

When Royal Mail was privatised it was one of the things they had to take on as part of the deal.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

Perhaps you need to familiarse yourself with this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Post_Office

You may then realise I wasn't talking about a company per say but Royal Mail's remit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now your just waffling ,i'm plenty old enough to remember the GPO and that has nothing to do with anything .We were discussing whether or not it was ok for the posties to refuse to deliver the leaflets on a matter of principle ,god knows what your babbling on about ,maybe you need to use a tiny portion of your brain and keep up instead of being an arse

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That really sums it up for sure.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting so called right wingers are now supporting militant posties in breaking their contracts and taking illegal industrial action in refusing to deliver the leaflet !

However as the story originated in The Sun, it probably has no foundation, apart from a single postie might have said to someone, somebody knows, as a joke...

Most posties want to shove the crap through the letter box and get off their shift asap. I know mine ignores my royal mail 'junk' opt out; can't say I blame him as it probably takes up too much time to filter it out.

I don't agree with this propaganda leaflet being sent; however postmen benefit from the worker protections the EU gives, which would no doubt be swept away with Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Pity some philanthropic billionaire can't tip a few £million BREXIT's way for a similar leaflet campaign. Imagine Dave's impotent foot stamping then.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

1975 and I voted NON!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ferendum,_1975

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

You could return the pamphlet to FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT- ZTXE (the conservative party foundation).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i got this from saint Nigel today

Dear *********

The government are spending £10 million of your money on pro-EU propaganda, with booklets dropping on doormats across the UK from today.

It is a disgrace that the government are using taxpayers' money to promote lies about our EU membership.

In response, I suggest we show the government exactly what we think of all this by doing what the great Elvis Presley once sang about - let's return to sender.

Feel free of course to add any helpful comments on the document before sending it back to the Prime Minister at:

10 Downing Street
London
SW1A 2AA

Regards,
nigel_sig.jpg
Nigel Farage

PS: This will cost you the price of a stamp but I think it's worth doing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I intend to send my leaflet straight back to number 10 and it will have a nice comment on the back in referance as to where they can stick there leaflet and the EU :)

It will be return to sender so i don't have to pay :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our leaflet will go straight in the bin just like all the other junk mail.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In this case i want them to have it back. As for my other spam mail my last lot was sent back to a PPI company that spammed me. :)

BTW Den hows Wigan doing :LOL:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't bother sending it to number 10.

It will NOT be delivered there.

It will go to a specific location first vetted then decided if to pass to DC office.

Even then he's highly unlikely to ever see it.

The best thing is bin it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Postman refusing to deliver political content they don't like isn't a good idea. Many on here will love it until a left-wing postman refuses to deliver a Tory or UKIP leaflet. Considering a lot of them will be Union I think this is a question of being careful what you wish for.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

They've treaded close to breaking that before though. I.E 'The vow'

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

l think you know exactly how they are doing old bean.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT- ZTXE (the conservative party foundation). The party will have to pay then. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sending mine to Virgin Media. along with some pizza and various other junk.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd send them to Labour HQ - they've done more than anyone to draw us into the EU superstate and they wouldn't even have given us the one sided referendum we have. With a bit of luck all that postage to pay would bankrupt the party. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It goes to a PO Box, not CCO - it then gets sorted, and if its rubbish, CCO don't have to pay for it.

Just causing Royal Mail time and expense, not the Tories...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well it's hardly likely to be classed as rubbish.

it wasn't rubbish coming through my letterbox.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You didn't have 10,000 turn up at once...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think I'll send mine to Jeremy Corbyn since he doesn't seem to be too sure.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Eurosceptics liken PM to Mugabe over EU leaflets:

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz45aglLEoy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

FURIOUS MPs last night accused the Government of squandering taxpayers' cash and breaching pledges to play fair in the European Union referendum campaign by producing a pro-EU leaflet to send every household in the UK

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ney-MPs-Brexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing like a totally invalid comparison to convince people...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This sort of outrageous and extreme exaggeration really is getting very tiresome. Whether it's ridiculous comparisons with despots and mass murderers, the most vile personal abuse/attacks or even death threats, it's certainly not solely a product of the social media age but there's no doubt in my mind that it's becoming more common as people seek to demonise and intimidate anyone who has a different view. The fact that it's so often done supposedly in the pursuit of a better, fairer, more tolerant society only adds to the irony and hypocrisy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow that leaflet is overall extremely dubious; ranging from at best sewing seeds of, and capitalising on, doubt and at worst out and out bovine excrement.

There is absolutely nothing in there I saw from my quick flick through and benefits of remaining in the EU and the improvements it may make to our lives going forward apart from a reference to mobile roaming charges.

If that's the best the government can do the decision is simple.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thanks for that post. Just received my copy this morning, it's gone straight back in an envelope to that address with the appropriate "Junk Mail" written on it. Let's hope they receive a lot of the leaflets back, it's been a colossal waste of taxpayers money.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Done ours. Worth an envelope just to think of the revenge factor.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This leaflet, haven't got mine yet, seems to have caused a lot of outrage. Not, I think, because of it's content but because of it's being funded by the taxpayer. Someone mentioned Mobile Roaming Rates. WOW! What a great reason to stay in the EU. NOT!

I see the IMF are saying what might happen should we leave the EU but as we know they are so full of **** as we all know. I seem to remember them saying if we didn't join the Eure all this crap would happen. If things are going to be so bad if we leave the EU, why are the Germans interested in buying the London Stock Exchange? I think that the trade deals with the EU won't take as long as the Remainers say. I think that the EU will want to get things rapped up as quick as possible. Anyway, don't we have 2 years where nothing will change after an OUT vote? Plenty time to renegotiate.

Still I suppose I can use the leaflet as extra toilet paper when it arrives.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We must have had 101 suggestions of what to do with this leaflet. Love the FREEPOST suggestion (full address is : - FREEPOST RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE, The Conservative Party Foundation, 30, Millbank, London, SW1P 4DP).

Origami is always fun ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xAZ1leLXW0

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As has been previously stated, doing that will just cost the Royal Mail time and money, as they go to a Royal Mail PO Box to be sorted first, and junk mail is taken out...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Plus, as quite possibly a majority of conservative grass roots are Brexit-inclined, you will end up wasting the time and money of those who are on your side.

You're much better off sending them to 10 Downing Street.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Who said I'm on the Brexit side ;) Just don't agree with the public money being used to present one side of the argument.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or Brussels...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How do they know it's junk mail unless they open the envelope ? Its worth a go even if it does cut into the proceeds of your Tory coffee mornings Hugh !

It's a shame RM don't filter my unaddressed mail out like I ask them to. However if this leaflet appears - they'll get a complaint; I've put up with it till now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i'm cutting mine in half so i can post it twice .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Simple (and genuine) question - do you think that, if we remain inside the EU, the UK will have:

a) More influence?
b) Less influence?
c) The same influence?

My answer is b)

I have a feeling we'll be reminded of it endlessly and made to pay for daring to rock the boat and want something better.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

influence of what? they never listen

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Surely Royal Mail will be reimbursed by the Tory party as part of the Freepost licence?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have you ever answered a question without posing one?


No, I didn't think so... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not if it's a mass of junk/spoof mail....

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

Simple logic - if they normally get a hundred or so Freepost mails to the PO Box at the Royal Mail sorting office that holds the PO Box, and then over a couple of weeks theu get a hundred thousand, it's not hard to figure out, and it's usually part of the contract.

btw, I don't take part in party politics, from leafleting to coffe mornings, for any party... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well it'll case a stink however it plays out. The royal mail will give the Tory's GBH of the earhole.:)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Mine arrived this morning, i have not even read it. Its in an envelope ready to be put in the post box tomorrow.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Already posted ours. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Complain away, but you may wish to read the MPS site first...

http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/what/

MPS only affects members of the Direct Marketing Association, not local businesses or political parties.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we'll have less influence in the EU if we leave, no right to veto, no ability to vote for EU regulations. More influence on our own laws depending exactly what trade deals we have (despite what Brexiters say, trade deals can demand national laws be passed). World wide I am not sure how we would have more influence.

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

Wasn't it the Tories who signed us up and Thatcher who was in charge when it expanded?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not referring to MPS. I'm referring to the Royal Mail unaddressed mail opt out which they hide away on their site.
https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...al-material%3F
If registered with this you should receive no unaddressed mail from RM (which would include this leaflet).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Good find - thanks for the information. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How about answering the question asked? ;)

What was happening back then pales into insignificance when compared to what happened since Blair obtained power. Furthermore since then we've had a couple of decades more to experience what the EU is all about in the real world, today, as opposed to nice cosy cuddly Brussels sponsored theory.

The world has changed massively since the days of Thatcher but the EU staggers on regardless and in spite of the chaos and at least she managed to stand up to these people a lot better than anyone since has.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, we'll see if I get one. I'd argue these aren't exceptional circumstances ie. not a nuclear war.
If I do get one, that Freepost address will come in handy !

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hopefully thse will start to give us some facts.

"38 Degrees is working with Full Fact, the fact-checking charity that's independent of us and everyone else. They can fact-check the EU Referendum - debunking myths and shedding light on half-truths."

They will be taking a totally independant look at this and will not have a foot in either camp.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Good, that's the leaflet we should all be getting. I'm edging towards leave again, I can see all the benefits in staying in for the rich and powerful in big business but what's in it for the little guy on the street

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Originally from Damien:

Well we'll have less influence in the EU if we leave, no right to veto, no ability to vote for EU regulations. More influence on our own laws depending exactly what trade deals we have (despite what Brexiters say, trade deals can demand national laws be passed). World wide I am not sure how we would have more influence.

No right to veto: Why would we want the right to veto if it doesn't effect the UK? Yes there may be some things regarding trade but there would be no need for veto if we negotiate the right deal.

No ability to vote for EU regulations: Do we have that right now? What I mean is, are these regulations not imposed on us anyway?

More influence on our own laws depending exactly what trade deals we have: Is this not a Brexit argument? Of course we will have a say, we will be making the deals.

Trade laws have to be passed worldwide: Well of course they do and because we will be making those deals, we will have a big say. Do you Remainers really believe no one will want to trade with the UK should we leave the EU? Do you really believe the EU would be so spiteful against the UK if we leave? That would not be in their interest.

The truth is we are likely to have less influence by remaining. The EU will see us as weak and probably to seek to take advantage of us. For example. Say they want to impose more stupid laws on us. They will look at a remain vote as us saying we're happy to go on the way things are. Why should they then give us reforms? We vote to stay it's like giving them the green light to carry on regardless. Imagine a group of workers going on strike for better conditions and returning after a month with nothing. The boss won't take them seriously next time. So it will be with the EU should we remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the bill .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Too late to stop it but not too late for censure.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Facts yes but neither side will agree with their opinion.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So what's the point debating it. What's done is done but they could take that £9 m off what they can spend when the campaign proper begins.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given that David Cameron is only giving reasons why we should remain in the EU, it does make you wonder what he is hiding from us about the advantages of leaving.

Having the ability to control the number of EU migrants is a great advantage since we cannot keep them out at the moment and the EU is happy for them to come to the UK despite the excessive demands they make on UK resources.

If we stay in we cannot avoid paying the 0.7% of GNP in Foreign Aid even if the recipients don't need it or it is wasted and people in the UK suffer through lack of money as a consequence.

As for influence, over the years we have objected to a number of EU issues but our objections have been ignored. Basically, the Europeans don't like us.

I think that David Cameron is looking at the EU through rose-tinted spectacles wanting to belong to an organisation that does not really want us as a true partner but is happy to take our nation's financial contribution.

Even if the EU remain group does win the EU referendum there is no guarantee that the agreed deal will not be negated and made worthless in the "fine detail" discussions that follow the referendum outcome. Unfortunately, by then we will be committed to staying.

I'd love people to be brave enough to vote for leaving if only to see what the EU's reaction will be to not receiving our EU contribution. I suspect that there will be an element of panic as they ponder how to fill the financial gap left by the UK brexit.

I just hope that our businesses which export to Europe have discussed with their customers what happens to prices etc if we do leave.

The feeling I get is that a lot of people feel that this is a done deal and that the remain campaign will be successful. If they do win we will have thrown away our sovreignty and independence as the EU does not respect out views anyway.

I suspect that the EU has conned Cameron into believing he has a better deal but that the truth will come out once the British people have voted. The sad truth about politicians is they operate in their own interests not in the interests of the British public.

It will be interesting to see what happens both at and after the Referendum vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Whatever deal he's got, senior Eurocrats are on record as saying there can be no guarantees that any changes will be legally binding for eternity. It's entirely possible and highly likely that in time new deals will be done which take away further powers from the individual states - indeed that's the state aim of the EU isn't it? It's called a single state.

We still haven't had our Euro propaganda yet but based on what I've heard of it I'd have a lot more respect for HMG if they'd at least acknowledged the known problems which face us by remaining inside the 'union'.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think the problem is that if they acknowledge them it is likely to get people voting to leave and government policy is to remain.

The unfair way in which David Cameron is running the campaign shows he is desperate for the UK to stay in but the Mossack Fonseca situation has not helped him.

There are definitely trust issues and hopefully more people will vote to leave. Maybe then he can focus all his attention on developing the British economy, which needs to be greatly diversified.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I seem to remember Cameron saying if he didn't get the best deal for Britain he'd campaign to leave so why isn't he? What he got from the EU was SFA.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Today during PMQ's Cameron insisted we have full control of our borders in answer to a question which cited proof that we have no such control i.e. the vast numbers who have the right and have chosen to come here. That's pretty poor IMHO. If he'd tied to argue that the current level of migration is good for the UK that would have been something but he didn't do himself any favours by refusing to accept that there is a downside.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given that now the sides who get the funding are announced and that both sides get one free leaflet drop (which at 33p each will cost about £9 million each side to get to 27 million households) on top of their other £7 million, can someone tell me where I return the leave leaflet to when I get it, please? :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Please, everyone, if you don't want the leaflet or any others that might follow, just bin it. Let's not waste the time and effort of others in an attempt to make any kind of political point that will fall on deaf ears.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Full control of our borders means that we know who is coming in and out (apart from the illegals), not that we can control the numbers.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just burn it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just got our leaflet - in fact it came in the first second delivery in one day we've had in ages so presumably in certain areas the volume of mail is such that there's a need to put extra staff on the job.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

So full control means no control of numbers? That doesn't sound very 'full' to me... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly my thinking.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not one of those who believe leaving the EU will stop immigration overnight. Surely though, it must go a long way to kerbing the numbers coming into the UK which incidentally, was UP again this month. They appear to be coming from Southern EU Countries.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct, it will not end it overnight but it will take away the legal right of entry from EU member states. Look how many have come from Poland, Romania etc.

Economic refugees from outside the EU and refugees are an entirely different issue.

Britain outside of the EU could refuse entry to any economic or refugee attempting to enter through any EU member state through it's own rules.

Where an asylum seeker travels through several EU countries, the CEAS allows one EU country to send that person to the first EU country reached by the asylum seeker, so long as that country upholds the rights of asylum seekers. This so-called “Dublin system” privileges EU countries in the north, the desired destination of many refugees, at the expense of the south, where most refugees first arrived.

Sourcehttps://www.opensocietyfoundations.o...european-union

If the EU had got their fingers out years ago and enforced the agreement then the chaos in Calais would never have happened and what is happening today in Greece and Turkey would never have reared it's ugly head.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

REVEALED: 'Buried' Whitehall report that proves EU's control on Britain and migrants

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661...igrants-Brexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The above report aside, given what we've actually experienced over the last few decades I can't understand why anyone would believe any assurances issued by the EU or indeed overlook statements made by leading Eurocrats which confirm the reality. We know what the EU is committed to achieving, we know what's in their DNA, we know that even the demonstrable, abject, failure of the Euro, migration, security policy for example, will not stop these people ploughing on regardless towards their single European state. How then can any realistically argue that somehow the UK can be part but not part? Do these people really believe the rules of the game won't be changed by hook or by crook and powers won't continue to be grabbed from us? Whatever else the other pros and cons of membership may be, so far as I am concerned this is the reality and so a vote to stay in the EU is a vote to sooner or later become consumed by the EU. There's no plan B, no other option, no room for compromise, no half way house and their job will never be done because they'll always be someone or something else which needs to be controlled. The Eurocrats only have one vision and that vision doesn't involve us controlling our own destiny, it involves them controlling it along with everything else - they're the giant continental equivalent of your worst vision of what a local authority could be. At a time when the EU's inherent failings have never been more starkly and tragically apparent, right across Europe, how can anyone seriously want to be further bound to it. Is anyone seriously suggesting that we're somehow going to be able to have the best of both worlds while the rest can't? Carry on picking the bits we do and don't want? Look at how little Cameron was able to negotiate whilst waving the biggest stick of all - the threat of us leaving. Concessions from the EU? Common sense? Reform??!! Dream on guys, dream on...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You all need to look at https://fullfact.org

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Although the ability for EU citizens can be difficult to cope with by itself, the bigger problem is what they are entitled to once they come over. Our rights to housing, NHS, benefits, etc were created on the basis of a known UK population level. Once you have millions more able to flood in and claim, the system doesn't work. You have the absurd situation where a Czech couple can come over with 22 of their children and grandchildren and all suddenly be eligible for housing, benefits, translators, etc. Bringing no capital with them to contribute, and all not working. When it was smaller numbers from countries like France and Germany and was more of a two way exchange of people, the system could cope. It may be an extreme example, but consider what would happen if the government of North Korea was to collapse. South Korea would be deluged with people.

Any EU directives have to be passed as UK laws, so saying that the EU was responsible for this that and the other is nonsense. The UK is able to pass most of those laws all by itself. Eg the UK started laws on paid holiday leave as far back as 1871.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the debate is now underway proper with 70 days to go. What do you make of Corbyn yesterday? I don't think he really believed what he was saying. It must be hard for a life-long Outer to change his stance? A leopard doesn't change his spots. I actually think he will be an asset to the Brexit Campaign simply because his heart isn't in what he's saying. The bit that got me was the statement "I believe Britain would be better off in a 'reformed EU'." Yes, he said it but the tone of his voice convinced me he didn't believe it. People are switching to Out after his speech according to news interviews afterwards. Someone should tell we ain't gonna get a 'reformed EU'. Thatcher, Blair, Brown and Cameron couldn't do it so why would we believe Corbyn can do it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Posting it back to the Tory freepost address is a perfectly legitimate protest that may get noticed in number. Binning it will not get noticed. Shame I haven't got mine to post back yet. Maybe the RM door to door opt out really has worked !

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The bigger problem is this: If they live and work in our country then they surely are entitled to the same rights as we are. By Kerbing their Benefits and other things, is Cameron not breaking EU rules by taking some of these 'rights' away from them? We can't have it both ways though it's obvious to me Cameron is trying his best to have his cake and eat it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have to agree, he's certainly not pro-Europe, but the majority of his party is, so he's had to toe the line. I think his unenthusiastic tone was deliberate ! He made a point yesterday of not taking back any of the anti-EU comments he's made in the past.

The latest polling, if you believe it, is showing a slight lead for Brexit (45% leave , 42% remain) There's a difference between sexes; Men seem to be in favour of Brexit, and women remaining. There are alot of undecided females though (what's new ;)). I suspect most of these will vote for no change when it comes to it.
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/fbcf81...s/11_April.pdf

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

LSE claiming foreign investment will drop approx 1/5th on Brexit: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit03v2.pdf as investors will longer be investing in an economy which has direct access to the single market.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Investment will drop even though they are investing longer??

I take it you are in the "In Campain" hence misquoting.:D:D:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's an accurate summary of the report: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/252ebfd4-0...#axzz45vYHc0kH

Although the LSE will join the Bank of England, IMF, CBI in being wrong I guess.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Watched Boris on the news this morning have to say he made a good point

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36057947

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What I don't understand is why mortgages will go up. Surely if things are going to be as gloomy as the Remain predict, Interest Rates will remain low to sustain the economy. I also can't see how on earth the building trade will be effected by a Brexit? Talk about desperation and use of Project Fear to its max! I also detect fear in the Remain Campaign that Brexit may actually win which is why they are resorting to these tactics.

---------- Post added at 08:24 ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 ----------

Have to agree with Boris. Someone should ask Obama when he's here if he is prepared to give up some American Sovereignty. Maybe some reporter will.