Re: The existence of God
 

I define an athiest as someone not believing in God. I do not believe that all athiests do not respect religion, or do not respect someone's believe in God.

I do believe that there are athiests who do not discuss the possibility that God does exist with their children, in the same way that there are religious people who do not discuss the possibility that God might not exist.

I just dont see the point in using extreme examples to chastise each other with.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:20 ----------

I personally think there are didfferent ways to teach children about religion. From what I understand about this case, is that her family taught her in a pretty extreme way - only going by some of the posts I've read on here so far.

I would never tell anyone (especially a child) that a little white lie is going to make them go to hell. There are other ways of encouraging children to stop telling white lies. There are some parents who beat their kids if they tell them a white lie, whilst others explain why you shouldn't. Extreme parenting exist in all forms and backgrounds, not just religiously.

Re: The existence of God
 

Including the belief that it is all impossible..

Re: The existence of God
 

It's child abuse.

She has had religion drilled into her by her sick father from such an early that she has become emotionally unstable / terrified of a mythical being.

And for anyone to argue that they're 'teaching' their children about religion .. They didn't ask for it and you ARE brainwashing them.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd be very careful about where you are going with this line...:erm:

Re: The existence of God
 

Well, it took you long enough to get to the point. Transference, perhaps? Come on, why don't you tell us what's really bugging you?

Re: The existence of God
 

Which part of "why should we be sorry for the way other people bring their kids up" don't you understand? Both Russ and I have stated we disagree with her parent's approach, but why should we be sorry on her/their behalf? Are you sorry on Pol Pot's / Stalin's / Mao Zedong's behalf, for all the things they did?

In your opinion - in her opinion, she is " a happy, hard working, sweet girl", but you, of course, know better, having seen her on TV for an hour. :dozey:

Re: The existence of God
 

I assume you will not teach your kids that its wrong to steal, bully, disrespect their parents, disrespect adults, swear at their mothers etc etc etc......

Re: The existence of God
 

Now, come on, don't let logic get in the way of a good rant.

Re: The existence of God
 

You are only saying that because you are a "sick father" brainwashing your child, tantamount to child abuse and screwing up her head, according to earlier posters :shocked:

btw, that obviously includes me too, as my children have been brought up in the C of E, and attended faith schools.

Re: The existence of God
 

Why do you have to be so argumentative in what you say? can't you just be civil for once in your life?
Why is your argument, why should me and Russ this and why should me and Russ that. it's called compassion. if you can't feel any compassion for someone because you'd sooner be stubborn, then that's you as a person.
but try not to make a spectacal of yourself for being that person.

What a pointless thing to say. of course she'll say she's happy :dunce:
God help children if you became a social worker.

Re: The existence of God
 

Do I have to use religion to teach my boy any of these?

Re: The existence of God
 

You're missing the point. It's not about whether religion is necessary in order to teach someone not to steal, its about a parent's right to choose how to bring their child up and what to teach them.

DRZ says that bringing a child up to believe in God from birth is 'brainwashing' purely and simply because he doesn't believe in God. Yet (we speculate) there are other things children are taught from birth that he's not railing against, like not stealing, running across roads, speaking French, eating with their mouths closed or being strict vegans. I wonder why not.

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh no, they're ganging up lads :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Did I say you have to?

Maybe you missed the point I was trying to make. It might become clearer if you read the posts before hand, especially the one I was replying to.

I can't be bothered to type of my reasonings for the upteenth time.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well come on, it makes a pleasant change from us having to read DRZ's angry invective followed by you parroting it. ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

No - And I didn't say you did. But thanks for looking at that.

Somehow I doubt it, but as you are unprepared (see below) to re-make it, I guess I'll never know.

Yup - I have listened to ALL the posts in this thread. But thanks for assuming I haven't.


As you wish. But thanks for not bothering.

Re: The existence of God
 

It's amusing you, of all people, calling someone stubborn :D (name-calling when you can't argue your point in a rational manner - excellent).

We answered your question - just because you didn't like the answer, or didn't get the answer you wanted, is your problem, not ours. However, I will try one more time - I would not bring my children up in that way (home schooling or keeping them away from "real life"), and I disagree with the slightly extreme (imho) viewpoints she has - but I cannot be sorry on someone else's behalf; if you feel that is lacking compassion, so be it; you are really way low down on my list of people whose feelings I care about. Sorry, that's incorrect - you are not even on that list. :D

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't parrot. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

As I've just said - I am NOT missing the point at all. You are assuming I am.

Re: The existence of God
 

Your question, aimed via the quote button at SLM, is inviting him to defend the proposition that it's necessary to use religion in order to bring up a child not to steal. Seeing as he hasn't made that proposition in this thread, what point were you trying to make?

Re: The existence of God
 

You can teach 'morals' without religion, to imply otherwise is stupid.

Watch the first minute and come back on here and tell me this isn't brainwashing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbZ155AiX9U

Re: The existence of God
 

No, it doesn't. I'd never tell anyone how to bring up their chldren - it's not up to me.

Which I didn't say he did.

I was just asking a question. Is there a problem with that?

Re: The existence of God
 

I love rational discussions, don't you?

Could we have one without the emotive and disdainful language, please?

Re: The existence of God
 

It's not about not getting the answer I wanted. the answer with you and Russ is always an answer to the way you want the question to be, not the question being asked.
If I asked if blue is blue, you would probably say that blue isn't green.

and as I think you're a bit strange, then I'm glad I'm not on any of your lists. :D

---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Foreverwar will be posting pictures from Google images again in a bit, to try and distract us from the discussion :)

Re: The existence of God
 

No, I don't - I don't agree how she has been raised, but I don't feel sorry for her.

Changing the question when you didn't get the answer you wanted. I don't agree with her views, but I don't feel sorry for her, just like I don't feel sorry for you and your views, which I disagree with.

I hope the answers above help - peace be with you.

Your last point is amusing from the person who inserts random :) in posts, whether relevant or not.

Re: The existence of God
 

Nobody is suggesting otherwise. What we are suggesting, however, is that you pick and choose what you call 'brainwashing' based on your own personal tastes and beliefs.

Please tell me:
1. Do you support the rights of parents to bring their children up as strict vegans?
2. Do you support the rights of parents to bring their children up to respect the laws of England?

Round and round like a hamster on a wheel. Maybe you're still amused by it but I'm not playing your games thanks. ;)



Questions - no. But if you want to ask a question at a tangent from the main discussion, it's probably not a good idea to do it by pressing the 'quote' button. It tends to make people assume you're responding to something - which clearly in this case you weren't - and simply results in confusion. ;)

---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Of course you can't, DRZ isn't here to hold a rational discussion, he's here to use certain other participants in this thread as proxies onto whom he can vent a lot of personal anger and frustration. I posted earlier to ask him what it is in his past that's made him so angry, but he's ignoring me. Fair enough, I suppose, but I plan to remind him of the fact the next time he accuses someone else of failing to answer his 'questions'.

Re: The existence of God
 

You've only just answered this one. does it tie into your argument below as to why you've only just gave an answer?

It was a more specific question, because the original wasn't being read properly. it was looking like another question to what was being asked.
is the reason you don't feel sorry for her because it's God that she has been taught, or doesn't it matter what it was?

Sarcasm doesn't suit you. it's too transparent :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Nope, all that's happened now is that I've had my opinions confirmed as to why I no longer go into churches or try to discuss things of a religious nature in there, or here.

It was a simple question and all that happened was that I got jumped on on and assumed that I was trying to ask a question based on some agenda.

Never mind, I've learnt my lesson and with luck I shall not bother to do either again.

Re: The existence of God
 

You always want to have the last word. even if it doesn't actually make sense.

Re: The existence of God
 

In which case, I honestly think all you're seeing is what you wanted to see. As I posted above, there are perfectly good reasons for thinking you were asking your question in a certain way, and those reasons have nothing to do with religion. They simply have to do with the normal operation of a threaded discussion on a bulletin board such as this one.

Re: The existence of God
 

Thomas, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass when I made my original reply to you. I honestly thought/assumed you had not got the point I was making and thought that it would help if you re-read the post - sorry for sounding or coming across with some arrogance.

The point I'm making - as Chris summed up- is that we teach kids alot of things including religion. They can be taught without religion being included but some people choose to teach religion too. I teach my daughter not to run across the road out side my house - I don't need to use religion to make that point. Similary good table manners are taught without any mention of religion, am I brainwashing my daughter in that aspect too.


Why should a parent teaching a child about religion be accused of brainwashing there kids. I can then apply the same argument taht anything I teach a child is brainwashing them. I hope that makes it clear.

Anyway I'm off now. Probably contribute later to this thread, but once more if I sounded like an arrogant twit in my original reply to your post it was genuinely not intented.

Cheers.

Re: The existence of God
 

I did not ask the question 'in a certain way' you are only seeing what you WANT to see. If you were unsure you could have asked first instead of assuming what I was doing.

Anyway I don't suppose there is any point in discussing it.

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

It makes no odds to me WHAT you or anyone teach their kids. In the end it's none of my business.

As long as you are looking after them, loving them and treating them right there are a lot worse things you can teach them than a religious viewpoint.

Me, I don't teach my boy that.

I DO teach him moral views and how to treat people correctly.

I also tell him that I'm not sure there is a god etc, but he's taught at school there is. So I tell him that is up to him to decide.

Anyway, as always just my 2p

Re: The existence of God
 

There is if we want to get away from talking about Deborah being brainwashed into thinking that she will go to hell if she doesn't spread the word of God :)

Another thing that was said was that life on earth now is nothing. it's the eternity afterwards that is important. her father said that he was teaching eternity, when asked what it was he was teaching his children.

Re: The existence of God
 

Post #1259
post #1261
Facts - ain't they a beyatch?

Re: The existence of God
 

if I was sure there was said eternity I'd teach my boy it too.

Re: The existence of God
 

Yes, especially when they're not quoted properly.

I asked the specific question later. it was a 2 part question, as a yes or a no can't cover both.

ok I'll be more specific. are you sorry that she has been force fed God from birth.

You both answered no to that one at first.

and that she thinks that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?

Russ later confirmed that he believes that too.

You haven't. but I know that from experience Russ speaks for you anyway :D

Re: The existence of God
 

i think that's check ..

Re: The existence of God
 

1:- No.... it is wrong to deprive a child of vital nutrition.
2:- Yes .... it's the law and the law 'exists'.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

*pulls up chair* ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

The parents also make sure the child has adequate multivitamin supplements. The child's diet is perfectly healthy. Are the parents brainwashing their child?

Really? Are you sure you've not simply been brainwashed by the State into behaving the way it wants you to?

Re: The existence of God
 

Love your logic - because I didn't answer the question you asked after I provided the answer (I answered in 1261, you asked the revised expanded question in 1262), I am in the wrong?:confused: You then said in your post #1327
that I had just answered it for the first time in my post #1325.

And on the Hell issue, once again you are mistaken - Russ does not speak for me, as we are from quite different wings of the Christian Church, and have vastly differing views on quite a number of religious issues. Once more, your propensity for sweeping generalisations and mistaking opinion for fact has led you down the wrong path. ;)

I do not believe that people who do not have faith in their life go to Hell - the young lady and her father may, I don't. (sorry for not living down to your preconception).
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/04/24.jpg

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

I have removed a few more posts.

The topic is "The Existence of God"

This thread is not about how people bring up their children - or how they educate them.

After 90 pages Im really wondering if anything more useful can even be said, so if this drifts off topic again it will simply get closed.

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't think there is a god. I'm not sure if this should be defined as not believing. I seem to find myself getting frustrated with one of my children becoming encouraged to attend church by someone close to her. I respect the person and their belief/religion if that's what they want, but I can't help getting annoyed when they try to force it upon my daughter. At times, I will go as far as ranting about it to my partner as it really does get to me. She has come to me and asked me about God and "when he made the world...". It's hard to know what to do in such situations with young children, but you can only do what you think is best. For me, I think I would rather see my children grow up being very much excluded from any religous beliefs, because I personally feel it is a waste of time and provides only confusion and an unrealistic picture of life, which will only hamper addressing real issues such as scientific ones that are just put down to "god made it" / "god does it" etc.

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't see anything wrong with exposure to religion, but you're right, forcing it is another thing. I don't take my daughter to church, but she knows about God and Jesus and the christian festivals, etc. I won't hide it from her, but I also won't force any ideas on her either. She'll make up her own mind when she is old enough to create a balanced view.

Re: The existence of God
 

What do you define as 'forcing it' on children? I bring my daughter up as a Christian, is that forcing it? What are the positives and negatives of what you call 'forcing'?

Re: The existence of God
 

when I was younger, I was made to go to church each and every sunday. I don't think that is right. and I think I'm in a sound position hold air that view being I was made to go, regardless of whether I told my parents I didn't like it, not believe in what the church was telling me.

Being made aware of religion, yes. but it can be done in many other ways than that.

Re: The existence of God
 

I did not like it either when my parents draged me to church, however did me no harm.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ok, that's a valid viewpoint.

I take my daughter along every sunday, she enjoys it as she's never complained or refused to go. As long as I am responsible for her, she'll come with me (she doesn't have much choice, I'm not leaving an almost-6 year olf on her own). I'm more than happy for her to learn about other religions at school.

Am I forcing it on her?

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

I wasn't forced to go. there was me, brother and 2 sisters.
I think we were encouraged to go to leave Mother and Father to be alone from us for an hour or so. they weren't bothered when we just grew out of bothering to go anymore.

Re: The existence of God
 

Some people say that if God did create heaven, earth and everything, he must have given up on it as a bad idea and just sodded off.

Re: The existence of God
 

and created Hell :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Which has been created to perfection.

Re: The existence of God
 

i wonder how many days that took;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Probably just one day, his rest day.

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

According to Christianity, the Devil was an angel named Lucifer but committed the sin of vanity so God cast him into (and therefore creating) Hell.

Re: The existence of God
 

A match made in heaven?





I'll get my coat...

Re: The existence of God
 

If your daughter enjoys it, Russ, then there's no harm at all. but to put something on a child that they have no choice over I think is out of order - like catholocism (in my view). labelling every child a sinner before they have had time to do anything wrong... I mean, come on... how to scare the crap out of a child before they even have a good understanding of anything! that's infair....

Re: The existence of God
 

Youngsters are more susceptible to brain washing before they can make their own decision if god exists.

IF a child was put on an island with no outside contact. Would they believe in God? No ... they wouldn't have a clue religion even existed!

Re: The existence of God
 

Well I'm not brainwashing. My daughter believes in the existence of God, if she wants to walk away when she'd old enough that's up to her.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think it's ok for a child to learn the story of God and everything to go with it, but as I think Bender is saying it's not ok to learn the child to believe that it's true, and even in extreme cases (brainwash/program) the child into living the story in the way of how some think it is said you have to live.

Re: The existence of God
 

My oh my, the forum is full of childless young men this evening. :dozey:

Re: The existence of God
 

I have a daughter. :) she's nearly 8

Re: The existence of God
 

Sorry, I should have said somewhat full. ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

They can always be debaptised after they've grown up and realised there isn't a God.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd rather make her aware of religions and let her decide for herself when she is old enough and can make that decision. I don't agree with labelling or burdening a child with a religion when they have no choice in the matter.

Religion and religious views can be a very important thing to people and I don't think that it is my place to make that decision for someone else. That makes me no better than a preacher myself.

As I say, I shall not hide religion from her, nor belittle it in front of her. I have my views, but that does not mean they should be hers.

Re: The existence of God
 

what would be the point if you dont believe then baptism was just a wash in cold water in a very cold bathroom ;)

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

:clap:

Re: The existence of God
 

Or you could do it yourself :)

http://www.secularism.org.uk/images/93122/original.jpg

Re: The existence of God
 

True, but as

Re: The existence of God
 

"Original Sin" is a Catholic concept (imho) - in C of E, the baptism is to welcome the child to the Family of Christ.

Re: The existence of God
 

Seems like a lot of effort for someone to go to - wouldn't it be just easier maybe.....just to not go to church again?

Re: The existence of God
 

Some people like closure?

Re: The existence of God
 

Seems some people only need closure because they've chosen to carry it around with them.

Re: The existence of God
 

I agree, having someone else's faith etched into the brain since birth, is extremely difficult to get out of their system.

Re: The existence of God
 

And buying a certificate will erase something 'etched' so deep? Pull the other one.

A person I know to this day caused untold trouble stress and sadness for my family when I was younger. Do I feel the need for some sort of emotional exorcism? Have I ever felt like downloading and printing a 'friend divorce'? No, I do what most people do and move on from it and pay no attention to them.

Re: The existence of God
 

I can't knock it, if it helps it helps.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm sure you can't if it's any way anti-religion.

Still, there's always money to be made from the gullible.

Re: The existence of God
 

i take it your not referring to the Church collection plate;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Somebody who is willing to pay for the certificate doesn't have to be gullible. you can say that it doesn't mean nothing. but that person is wanting it for a reason. you can have your opinion and he has his.

Re: The existence of God
 

And conveniently enough, I knew someone would post something like the one above yours.

It goes to show that making money out of gullible people happens in all areas of society.

Re: The existence of God
 

Can you edit this so it makes sense, and I'm able to respond to it? :D

It costs £3 because the certificate is printed on quality parchment paper.

Re: The existence of God
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/9.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/04/13.jpghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/04/14.jpg :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

Why - are you still rambling?:D

Re: The existence of God
 

yes it is, and it's very wrong imo

Re: The existence of God
 

I find it amusing that some Christians dismiss other religions as cults, in reality, they are exactly the same!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(cult))

Just because one 'religion' has more members than another ... how can one be a 'cult'.

Russ B called Scientology a 'cult' only a few pages ago!

Re: The existence of God
 

Topic everyone.It's getting lost again..In addition the last few postings have been nothing but off topic tit for tat point scoring and have added nothing to the debate.

Does God exist is the basic premise of this thread, not brainwashing.

Re: The existence of God
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(cult)

The ) has fell off the end.

Re: The existence of God
 

All I'm saying is that brain-washing can make 'some' people, believe in anything. It is key to the argument that god doesn't exist.

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:43 ----------

Cheers ... fixed.

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

No probs.

Re: The existence of God
 

Having read the mostly drivel posted since my warning, it seems I was correct - it seems nothing more useful can be added.

Thread closed.