Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to the Register - yes.
According to the person himself - yes

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i did make the assumption (possibly incoerrectly) a business would be running on a business broadband service

do we have a way of finding out?

peter

Update

just found this

"BT acted illegally and dishonestly. Not only did they do this to me (a long term satisfied BT Business Broadband customer) but to thousands of other customers out there."

posted by stephen mainwaring on http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/...t-spreads.html

seems to show BT business links WERE affected, so seems to kill the idea this is BT Retail only

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT business broadband is a product of BT retail, AFAIK. It's an end-user ISP product sold to a business as an end user (B2B), and differs only from a residential service in the terms, download/upload speeds and limits etc offered.

BT wholesale, on the other hand, sell connectivity to other ISPs, who then sell to other customers. The end customer could be business or residential, but the key thing is that BTs customer is another ISP, who will resell connectivity in some form or another.

Have BT made a clear and unambiguous statement regarding BT Business Broadband?

It is clear from the leaked documents that ISPs who use BT wholesale product will not be Phormed by default, as Phorm's equipment sits in the BT retail ISP kit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Update from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7545766.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to the last sentence in this video, the Information Comissioner is investigating BT's actions.

I look forward to the results of that investigation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The times they are a changing! The BBC Technology page is beginning to look more like the Register every day. Two lead stories in two days. Both bang on target.

Does this mean that BT will miss their Olympic deadline?

I haven't been quite so optimistic since the last BT leaked document came out.

The phorm shares continue on their downward curve whereas the media coverage is on an upward curve. Keep up the pressure everyone.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The BBC coverage is good news for the petition also since it seems to be going up faster again Signatures: 16,642

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I guess I need to give an update from my perspective.

BT Business Broadband
Yes I was a BT Business Broadband customer. A more than happy business broadband customer from 2001 up until June 2007 when all the lies and deception started.

note some of the differences between business broadband and home broad band were

20:1 contention ratio instead of 50:1
Free helpline number instead of XX per minute
Better webspace and email facilities
Payment quarterly (I think home you have to pay monthly?)
Cost was effectively 17.5% higher than home broadband (VAT exclusive / inclusive)

I run my online business at home. The limited company paid for the internet connection. As the director I authorised my self and my family to use the internet connection for personal use in accordance with Inland Revenue Homeworking guidelines.

So how come my 'business' internet connection was being intercepted by sysip.net? How many other businesses (either small, work from home, medium, SDSL, leased line businesses were also being intercepted?

Yes, the Kingston RAS was the key here. BT have always said that 'The tests were done on ONE EXCHANGE' so that would be Weston-S-Mare then?

No. What they are not telling you is that the test was done on ONE SUPER EXCHANGE - the Kingston RAS. This is a RAS where something like a third to a half of all BT connections go through. It covers an area from South Wales, South West, West, South East and parts of London.

Anyone within those areas could have been part of the trials.

ICO Investigating
I don't want to make this post seem like a rant about the ICO but every question I ask them is replied with weasel words and cop outs. They also seem to be desperate to find technicalities in order to not investigate the matter fully.

I will just point out one of the latest responses from them.

When I informed them that IP addresses are personally identifiable information, and thus they have a duty to investigate the processing of MY data under the DPA, they wrote back to me saying:

"As your internet connection was paid for by your limited company... the DPA only applies to living beings rather than companies ... we will therefore not investigate further."

Quite astonishing that. I replied with:

"I authorised the use of the internet connection for my self for personal use and for my family. At the time of the trials my son was using the internet daily. BT had therefore intercepted and processed the personal data of my self and my family without our consent. What is the point of the ICO and the DPA if a large company can profile and process the personal data of a minor and get away with it?".

European Commission
When all this erupted back in February / March someone told me that it would be up to Europe to sort this mess out. At the time I thought it did not have to go that far: we have the ICO, the home office, the police, MPs who would be eager to get justice done.

I can now see that communicating with them has produced more action than if I had gone straight to the local police - as it was suggested to me a few months ago.

(I do note and appreciate the good work done by Earl of Northesk and Baroness Miller but they must be as frustrated as the rest of us with the lack of response from the various government departments and agencies).

Compensation
I don't want to say too much about this as it is ongoing. I have put in a claim to BT and this was initially turned down (as expected).

I am in contact with a customer services person (I think this is the top level customer services team - very efficient, friendly, helpful and understanding. This is a Swindon number which redirects to a Scottish location). The latest I am told is that the office of E.S. has written to me this week although I have not yet received that letter.

What I did say to the CS person is that I am not willing to go back and fore explaining this and that. IMO the position is perfectly clear:

BT intercepted my communications and processed personal data. They did this without consent.

This had a considerable impact on my business and I am claiming compensation for it. The fact that they lied about the trials, and told me (insisted) I had a virus, and the fact that those lies went on until March this year made the matter worse.

I have no doubt that what BT did was illegal and I have submitted a claim. If they do not pay I will take this to HMCS. BT will therefore have to explain why they are not paying and this will presumably involve them explaining why they think the trials were not illegal...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

sorry but this part made me laugh. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What deadline is that ? Has there been an official announcement that I've missed ?

I've seen some unsubstantiated gossip* in an earlier post - is that what you are basing your assumption on ?

(* I would use the term 'heresay', but as IANAL, I am not sure if that would be valid in this context)

Some people would prefer facts about when the trials are going to begin (if ever), and they can only come from BT.

Chinese whispers don't help the anti-phorm cause in any way.

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But if this DID involve Small Business Customers, such as Solicitors, Insurance Brokers it would become a very serious matter as the Data Profiled would involve the Personal Data of many of their online Clients!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a couple of corrections on Frank Rizzo's list of differences between business and retail:

As of this spring, calls to support on retail are now free.
Payment can be either monthly or quarterly, but is charged to your phone bill. You decide.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The part that gets me in the latest BBC article is this quote
Now I am sure that many people conatcted the HO complaing about the trails. Or is it that the higher ups, or the PR people weren't told about it.
A few straight, plain english answers from govt, BT, any number of govt agencies, Phorm would go along way to clearing things up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ICO would see different. If the solicitors or brokers were LTD or LLP then the IP address assigned to the business would not be for a living individual and they would not investigate.

I would really like to see Struan Robertson's view on this :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If we take the last statement from BT about when the next set of trials will begin then they should have already started. So I don't think we can rely on "facts" from BT.

Also, have you tried asking BT any questions lately? Got a reply? Did it answer your question?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See last post by dave:

http://btb.lithium.com/btb/board/mes...ge.id=279#M279

Anyone have an answer?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One thing I just noticed after reading Struan Robertsons article again was this quote.

This appears to make reference to the section (s28.a wasn't it?) that BT said they were relying on. The paragraph doesn't really make sense though as he says "the breach is trivial" but the section he refers to is something that "allows" for the making of a temporary copy under certain circumstances. If their use does not fall under that specific exclusion then it's not the exclusion they are in breach of but the act itself. Hardly trivial!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like they've deleted the 'BTs corporate values again' thread. Again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with you entirely on that point, but that does not mean that anyone should resort to conjecture, which is neither helpful nor productive.

Yes, I have asked, and been met with a complete blank, as I think most people have, but that does not tempt me to second-guess what their intentions or future activities might be. I would rather have no information than mis-information, and that applies to the anti-phorm lobby as well as BT.

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Someone Spotted that it had been deleted & not locked & there appears to be a third thread?

---------- Post added at 14:12 ---------- Previous post was at 14:08 ----------

Time will tell whether it was good information or just conjecture.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Without conjecture we would not have mathematics or science and would not be having this conversation. Conjecture can be helpful and productive, so long as it is seen for what it is. The original poster of the 'information' was very clear that it could not be verified in any way.

Absolute certainty is very rarely achievable. If you constrain yourself to it then you will get your wish of having no information at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed, but time is on the side of those that are pulling the strings, not those who are dangling on them ;)

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now that Phorm gaining a higher profile amongst the business community, it would be a really good time to finish this:

http://business-openletter.blogspot.com/

We could refer business users to the blog.

...but it needs to be finished. If anyone is willing to do so, please email/pm me with the text.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What more were you wanting to add? Apart from the "details to follow" about webmaster tools (see Dephormation.org.uk) it looks very good to me.

I'd like to see links to the inphormationdesk site and also the Alternative Webwise FAQ site because I think they are great for newcomers.

The key message for the webmasters is

Google sends traffic and customers to your site
Webwise steals data and customers from your site

The value of putting it like that is it sweeps the legs out from under Kent Ertugruls constant complaints about google being "much worse" than Phorm/Webwise, and also sweeps the legs out from under BT's claim that all they need to do to infer informed consent from webmasters is see whether they allow Google to crawl their site.

Of course that's their line. They know that very few webmasters interested in visitors will ever ban google. So they get access for Webwise.

It doesn't include all the complicated copyright arguments, because although I agree with those, and want them highlighted, explaining them takes AGES (or would if I understood them myself - I leave that to dephormation.org.uk - who is doing a great job on them).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You don't do any fishing then?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi everyone. I'm a consultant been following the data profiling debate for a long time.

This is in my view a pretty serious misunderstanding. An IP address in itself *could* possibly be treated as personally identifiable information, because it could be traced to a living person.

But this is not the issue here. IP addresses are pretty much irrelevant as far as Phorm is concerned because Phorm scan the CONTENT of the IP stream to build a profile of an end user.

In my view the content of an IP stream potentially carries a large quantity of personally identifiable information, irrespective of whether the connection is rented by a Limited Company entity or a private individual.

The IP address itself is a red herring.

For example, a small news agent subscribes to a business broadband service. The owner of the news agent uses an unencrypted web-based email service set up and run by a third party. In the course of their business, the news agent will send and receive emails which may contain personal information about their employees or customers. E.g. employees providing an update on medical absences, customers ordering newspapers and magazines, which could belie religious, sexual and political preferences (e.g. specialist Christian magazines, right-wing newspapers, trades magazines).

One could argue that perhaps the business has been negligent in the protection of their customer and employees information by not using encryption, but this would be harsh since in my guesstimation many millions of emails are sent every year by businesses containing low-grade PII for various reasons.

And since even if the web interface was encrypted, the email itself would still be transmitted unencrypted to the recipient mail server, I think this point can safely be dismissed. After all, most people would happily telephone their employer and explain an embarrassing medical ailment, or phone their newsagent to order a magazine, and phone lines aren't encrypted. Nearly every UK ISP also runs a telephone service so I would argue parity here between email and telephone security, although I accept this is far from a simple comparison.

The issue here is that the IP stream itself contains PII, and that, in my opinion, it is not possible to accurately pre-filter all PII from the stream before profiling. Especially considering that there are a wide range of web-based message-passing communication services (social networking, professional discussion groups, religious groups, trades unions, etc), not all communications are in English, that there are an undeterminable number of methods of restricting access to web pages (non-standard authentication mechanisms), and the internet is used to communicate all manner of personal issues, including victim support groups, medical support groups, etc etc.

James Firth

Dalton Firth Ltd

EDIT

Forgot to mention that the other side of the coin is whether a profile of information can be linked to a living person. In the residential case, this is easy enough to argue, there is one user ID per individual. So long as there is some method of linking the ID to an account, e.g. network monitor within the ISP to link ID to account, or ID leaking as described by Richard Clayton, then the profile can if necessary be linked back to an individual. For a business this is harder to prove, however I can see an example where the person has a very strange name, and the profiler stores this name along with the other keywords from an email. It may, and this is a contentious point, be possible to link back. I think another way of looking at it would be to ask the ISP or software vendor (Phorm) to prove that it will NOT, under any circumstances, be possible to do this. And by prove I don't mean say: we've looked at this and it won't happen.

EDIT 2

In a business a user could be allowed to use the internet for personal use, e.g. lunch times and after work. They may also sit at the same desk each day and use the same computer. In this case the Phorm ID would be linked to that computer, and hence that employee, although to actually make this link one would need to either rely on Phorm leaking the ID as described by Richard Clayton or have a network sniffer in the company itself, to deduce the IP address of the machine. Either way it's a thin argument from the ICO to claim that a business subscriber has no claim to protection because the users of the connection would still be people and the data could still relate to individuals.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like my account may have been suspended on the BT forums...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Those of us that are waiting to see what will happen when and if the trials take place, and when and if the Webwise/Phorm product is launched and how it will affect us, are not really interested in what the theorists may deem as possible or conjectural - there is more immediacy than that, and unverifiable information is totally inconsequential at this point in time, even if it eventually proves to be correct.

Absolute certainty is achieved when an event happens. If and when the trials begin - if and when the product launches, it will have become a certainty. I do not wish to have 'no information', far from it, I simply wish for whatever information there is to be accurate: which though may not imply certainty, it is nearer to it than pure conjecture.

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What you require is Perfection, when you achieve it let me know!

Back to the debate as to whether or not this happens, as I've stated before time will tell!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Philosophers would disagree, but that is way off topic.

I disagree. Sometimes it is advantageous to act on unverifiable information, especially if you have nothing to loose from the information being wrong. If we make ready for a trail beginning in the next week and it fails to materialize then what do we loose?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To quote: "There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot." Steven Wright

I don't do either :)

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With me my name is Florence there is a town of Florence so my name repeated on a page would be profiled then I would be fed adverts about holidays in Florence.

Also people could then link me to this by my name also my mothers name is Florence..

The whole thing about Phorm on the network has too many Iffs and Buts to be safe...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi James and welcome to the thread. Some of us are probably familiar with your interests in these issues because we read UK Crypto, but it is still good to have you on board.

I agree with everything you have said, the IP Address is a red herring it is the content data that is the concern in my mind. IP address was originally raised as an issue because BT claimed Phorm never monitored IPs in the trials when the leaked report clearly shows that in fact they did, so it was more of a case of showing BT being less than upfront with the truth. I think everyone here will agree with you that the potential of PII data in the content of the data stream is a much more serious concern.

(Quick note to everyone else - I passed my exam :) )

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Congratulation Alex :)

BTW IP address can be used to identify a person and even identify where they live hence why it illegal to hack he he ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your sig would probably be classed as PII but I doubt very much that Phorm have implimented a "filter" for it. It would be impossible for Phorm to cover all the bases there are so many illnesses, disabilities, religions, sexual preferences, political preferences etc. etc. that it would literally be impossible to guarantee that no PII data would ever be picked up by the system.

(No offense by the way it was just a timely example to use; my missus is dyslexic to.)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see no reason why this information should not be accepted at face value.
It is entirely possible that BT will start the trial whist reporting of the 'Games' deflects attention from it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just had an email from another journalist who is putting together a story based around the EU Commission getting involved; I will be providing him with a commentary on the issues over the weekend and it goes to press on Tuesday/Wednesday next week. I will provide more details as I get them.

I will also be sending out an FOIA Request to BERR tomorrow for full disclosure of the letter they have received from Commissioner Reding (although we may get it sooner than that if things pan out as planned with another press contact who has contacts in the EU Commission - more on that at an appropriate time).

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

Oh and I almost forgot, been keeping this one under wraps but I am currently (with a few others) in the process of setting up a registered charity called Privacy Online and you will all be very pleased to hear that the Earl of Northesk has agreed to be on the Board of Trustees. NoDPI will become a Privacy Online campaign once everything is set up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As the original poster, could I suggest that people don't get drawn into a circular argument over this. Just wait and see.

Circular arguments benefit phorm :monkey: and it's minions. :monkey::monkey::monkey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is good news Alex, both about the exam and the registerd charity. If there is anyway that I can be of help please let me know.
The longer this goes on the more a long term solution is needed, not just for DPI but for many other Privacy Issues as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect that the majority of the 9 million plus broadband subscribers that will possibly be affected by Webwise/Phorm are not philosophers.

Credibility.

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well the plan was always to try and expand the focus onto other online privacy issues such as tracking cookies, adware etc. Initially we will continue to concentrate on Phorm and start to expand to cover other similar companies like NebuAd and Front Porch. Ideally we would like to spend some of our time lobbying and the big advantage of being a registered charity is that we will have the opportunity to fund raise more effectively which in turn will allow us to do more and more.

It is still in the preliminary stages as it takes a lot of work getting everything setup but I will be sure to keep everyone updated.

I am also planning to work closely with the Lib Dems after the summer recess; they will be doing a report on these issues and putting some long needed party focus on the entire debate.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Congratulations Alex on your exams, the charitable status for Privacy Online and for your 1,000th post.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/63.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good - I hope to see my LD MP at a surgery sometime over the summer, she is a signatory to EDM but I feel the LD's in the commons are not yet REphormed in the way that the peers in the Lords are.

Congrats on the exam and good to hear about the charity! Hope the documents were useful.

Don't forget to mention the BT situation as regards forums when you do your briefing. Not for discussion here (OT - Hello mods) but if you want more info PM me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why is it when bad news hits the airwaves from Phorm's point of view, the circular Phorm arguments appear, designed to dilute the discussion, from the pro Phorm PR?

Congratulations on the exam success Alex. Good luck with everything else also. You're doing a great Job all round!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Axle,

That's an interesting point. While I was preparing these notes it struck me, you could be at risk of identification from simple typos in data.

Even if you believe Phorm were capable of filtering out all PII (and it isn't, the anonymising process is a hoax).

It would be impossible to filter out typos. Which would worry me if I was dyslexic, and reliant on assurances from Kent Errtsadgs.

Peat.

------------
THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY AXLE PHORGE INC - MAKERS OF PHINE CAR AXLES, AND PATRICK'S PEAT - BEST FOR YOUR PHLOWERS, AND KENT TOURIST COUNCIL - COME AND PHIND THE BEACH PHRONT HOLIDAY YOU ALWAYS PHANCIED

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Solicitors are usually partnerships, not LLPs that means they are not really body corporates, just a group of people trading together.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Congrats on the Exam, Alex. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So basically i am at mroe risk of getting ads or worse getting tracked?

oh i really need ot update that signature a bit

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It appears that there was a brief (about an hour), but major outage at the Kingston exchange (kt1 - RAS?) during the last 24 hours ...

http://www.internettrafficreport.com/history/304.htm

(thanks to Don on bt.broadband.support).

Of course this could just be a coincidence, and of course I'm not making any assumptions, but ..

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You have an extra http// in your link (the second one) :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fixed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oops - thanks for pointing that out :)

Now corrected - thanks Rob.

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll keep that in mind, just like the other info & weigh up the balance of probabilities as I go along.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done, Alex. :)

Look forward to hearing more about Privacy Online; sounds interesting.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same with vets in practice - they have to form partnerships not "companies", and partners in law are individuals, jointly and severally liable for one anothers personal actions and even debts - which would give the ICO something to think about.

Just another example of something that due diligence would have thought through when they sought, er... obtain... legal opin... er um advice. You would have thought.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all,
I've put a message up on my site
Written to the European Commisioner
Written thanking Baroness Miller for her work
Written to OFCOM
Written to VirginMedia 3 letters and emailed them as well
Written to the Home Office (spitting in the wind I think)
Given the Dephormation flyer to 2 Doctors Practices I know with instructions to sign the petition or I'll stop being ill ( 6 Doctors in all )
Been round to 3 local firms who deal on the net and left the info with them
working on getting some more flyers out
whats the wording for a complaint to ICO reading their online form did my head in and who else can I annoy ?

Philj

not looking for a pat on the back here just guidance

EDIT still waiting for a reply to my reply to virginmedia not as quick of the mark this time first response was within 24hours 4days and counting

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Awesome work, Phil. Thanks for your tireless campaigning. We all appreciate it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just googled for the BT broadband exchange Kingston and got
BT Broadband Exchange - Kingston‎ -
Kingston, 1 The Cottons, Kingston Upon Thames, KT2 6RP‎ - 0870 850 3325


NOT.KT1 3JA ,,Unless google maps are wrong.

coincidence: maybe:erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The new MVPS HOSTS file is out - there is now a line for Phorm IPV4 IP ranges but no actual entries, although the NebuAd section definitely has some interesting domains - what effect is this going to have?

And how do we get the Phorm ranges included? Are they waiting for implementation before they block or are they open to information?

I've posted the link to the text file version not the downloadable HOSTS file itself.

I've sent in an email to ask if they want info on Phorm and referred them here. Hope that is okay.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More ideas;
- Send your ISP/telecom provider (both) a section 11 DPA notice (my wizard will help you write it, and find the right address)
- Write to your MP if you haven't done it already (again this wizard will compose a basic letter for you).

ISPA, waste of a stamp, but handling letters and writing replies gives them something enjoyable to do.

Think about what's been going on. Is there an enquiry you think we've missed? A question unanswered in your mind? Then write to the Government department and ask. Examples might include the Cabinet Office, BERR, Home Office, ICO. Make sure the letter is headed Freedom of Information request.
Keep the question simple to answer, and you'll get a response in 20 days, in theory. Who, what, why, when... Stick to stuff that costs nothing to photocopy and/or print. Letters, minutes, agendas, meetings. Think about sites like whatdotheyknow.com and writetothem.com.

Also Sir Michael Rake at BT. Ask him to explain what BT were doing in 2006 and 2007. Mention BT's values, and contrast them with what we know about Webwise and the conduct of BT. (I'm still waiting for my reply).

Ignore the ICO form, write directly to Richard Thomas, and ask for an explanation for ICO's lack of "technical expertise" and failure to hire those skills. Ask him to explain the evident lack of regulatory independence demonstrated in the correspondance released by ICO (on Dephormation.org.uk).

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>To contribute a listing for our resources, report a bad link, or site problems, send this information or any other comments you may have to: winhelp2002 -at - comcast -dot- net

EDIT: Oops, sorry. Didn't see your last sentence.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi again,
Dephormation,

have sent dpa letter (missed it off the list)
and now sent letter to MP

thanks for advice

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've followed up by sending them a file I had on my comuter of phorm hosts entries that I haven't actually added to my hosts file yet but thought they would be interested in - referred them here for a look-see.

Can't remember where I got the list of urls for the hosts file - I think it was posted here somewhere in the distant past - a long time ago in a far away post in the early days of the Jedi wars.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Was it this one: http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ ?

It has webwise & oix in it

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Terms and Copyright © 2007 PPI

All of the online and telephone audio content provided by us is protected by English and International copyright laws and that copyright is owned or controlled by us. Unless otherwise stated, we reserve all rights in that copyright. This means, for example, that you may not copy, issue copies to the public, perform, show, broadcast or make any adaptation of any of that content without our permission. All copyrights, trademarks, patents, design rights, and other intellectual property rights relating to this website and telephone audio content (including, but not limited to, the underlying software, the design, graphics, layout, colour, feel, and structure of our websites, and the structure, information, charging mechanism and wording used in our telephone audio content) will be and remain the sole property of us. You may view, use, download, and store the material on this website and telephone lines for personal and research use only.

Commercial use is strictly prohibited. Redistributing, republishing, copying, adapting or otherwise making material on this website or telephone lines available to third parties is prohibited. Unauthorised use of our website or telephone audio material may give rise to a claim for damages and/or be a criminal offence.

The information in this website and on the telephone lines is given in good faith and for general information and interest only. It is subject to change without notice. We make every effort to ensure that the information on our websites and telephone lines is correct but we cannot guarantee that it is 100% free of inaccuracies, errors and omissions.

taken from the UK Passports site where there is an online application form for passports. If thats not private data I dont know what is and notice how it may be a criminal offence.
2 Your rights and how we protect them

The Identity and Passport Service is committed to compliance with the Act. We hold a legal duty to do so. We will take every precaution to protect your information. The following principles will apply when we process your personal information:

* Your personal information is only processed with your knowledge;
* Only personal information that we actually need is collected and processed;
* Your personal information is only seen by those who need it to do their jobs;
* Your personal information is retained only for as long as it is required;
* Your personal information is accurate and is only used for the intended purpose;
* Decisions affecting you are made on the basis of reliable and up to date personal information;
* Your personal information is protected from unauthorised or accidental disclosure;
* You will be provided with a copy of personal information we hold on you on request;
* There will be procedures in place for dealing promptly with any disputes.

All of these principles will apply whether we hold your personal information on paper or in electronic form.
I am going to ask them how thiey reconcile this with the deployment of Phorm

Phil


text of email sent to passport office

Sir,
Reproduced below are terms, copyright notices taken from your site. Also your stated policy regarding information held by yourselves.

I would be grateful if you could tell me how you will seek to reconcile your stated policy and protect this information you hold when and if PHORM is implemented by BT and Virginmedia. You state in the underlined section unauthorised copying or reproducing etc is prohibited but this is exactly what the Phorm system entails. If you take no action to protect this information you will in my opinion be condoning and participating in what has already been admitted,by BT themselves, to be an illegal act after their illegal interception of data transmissions in Sept/Oct 2006 and June 2007. Regardless of any opt in opt out procedure it is my understanding that data will still pass through this system making your assurances obsolete and worthless.

I would be grateful for your comments on this matter and correction where I am in error

Your sincerely

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be careful Philj - you are actually breaching their terms and copyright by reproducing the above here ;)

D_A

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No - the MVPS site here

you can sign up for the MVPS one and get an email each time they update it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's a link at the bottom of the MVPS page where folks can submit a listing for inclusion I've been looking through this thread for the Phorm IP ranges to send into them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've done that last night. I've sent you the list by PM - can't actually remember where it came from and I know it will be out of date.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Rob,

Maybe if a few of us send it in they're more likely to include them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.ips.gov.uk/passport/privacy.asp

http://www.ips.gov.uk/passport/copyright.asp

There is plenty on that site to quote at the Home Office and DBERR (don't forget DBERR) in any letters about the copyright issues around Webwise.

Maybe the ICO might like to read it too.

But BT won't need to worry about that, it doesn't apply to them. They've sought er obtained um legal opin.. er advice. Intercept, scrape, copy, profile, exploit - BT can do it, just don't do it yourself (especially on a BT connection)

Isn't it ironic - the mods here quite rightly, warn us about pasting large amounts of copyright text, but Emma Sanderson says their legal advice is that they can copy to their hearts content, make derivative works, and exploit them for the commercial gain of 3rd parties. And at the same time, chase down filesharers and throttle ALL non port 80 activity etc etc etc.

Their lawyers must be very very clever people to be able to face so many ways at once.

---------- Post added at 08:21 ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 ----------

Yes- it's good that they are obviously preparing - with a few NebuAd sites listed, and a "section" ready and waiting for Phorm IPV4 assignment sites to be added. Quite cheered me up that did. Once Phorm and Webwise sites are included then the MVPS hosts file can be included in publicity. I think a lot of people use it - the MVPS designation is well respected.

I know it is "blocking" rather than "preventing" the system, but every little helps, and if the market isn't there, because of things like the MVPS hosts entries, then Phorm's market model collapses even further.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as BT are "supposedly" going to try and sneek phorm / BT Webwise out during the games would it not be worth added a few lines to that effect on nopdi and various other sites so if people go looking for olympic info the may find a anti phorm page and be alerted?

just a thought

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think there's a great urgency attached to Phorm. I wonder if BT aren't simply stalling Kent Erfdfsf, praying for Phorm to self destruct. The lack of publicity tells me Webwise isn't something they are very proud about.

So I'd be wary of frightening people unnecessarily.

In any case, suppose Phorm is introduced, we have an eternity ahead. And, without repeating myself on the details, BT will suffer commercially every day until it is switched off.

Pete.

PHORM MUST BE STOPPED

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i am not so sure, so added a line to my front page warning, if it only stops 1 user from being phormed the 30 seconds were worth it

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wonder if they relise Phorm is what people fled from VM numbers dip.

El REg http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...in_q2_results/

Seems our Government has been collecting data from all who visit these shores including CC details why? This is Personal data they have no right too gather suppose if there is any illegal money transfers the visitors can now say someone from UK government had my details seems they are handed over by some epassport thjing you visit UK they open you up for a live autopsy and cash balance withdrawl Have they gone totaly mad???????


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...cret_services/
I can see UK tourisum the next down the pan especially since they don't even have the freedom to surf the internet while here without being spied on also....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL read the last few lines :)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...wanted_poster/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:rofl: :rofl: El reg strikes again have to admit never thought of that one...

Suppose this is how they always have worked hiding the code inside something people were led to believe was safe bit like Phorm and the protection racket that hides the adware/spyware pimping clicks for adverts..

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...ve_phishermen/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe the chap at MVPHosts was asked about including the Phorm ranges a couple of months ago and his reply was posted here (or maybe on one of the other forums). Since we cannot sensibly search in this thread I cannot find the posting.

I remember at the time he said something about the Phorm/Webwise domains changing hands (but no idea where he got that info from...). But until Phorm actually starts he really can't do anything as he would be speculating what urls they will be using. The fact he has now added a section for them indicates he knows about Phorm and will due course add them. But he can do nothing until they actually start to be used, and knows what can be blocked and what can't (as it would kill your browsing).

Remember you can always add them yourself...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does anyone have php code that alerts people to phorm? and makes it very clear you do not want your site advertised by phorm? just i am in the middle of deign some web sites for uploading to open source sites but i want ti very clear phorm is not welcome.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try taking a look at Dephormation Pete's tools

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/?page=17

Hope this helps

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It might interest some people to know that BT's flagship datacenter in Cardiff [home to 21CN] suffered two unpublicised (to my knowledge) major power outages when power failed and the generators failed to kick in. (and I mean major outage).

Working in my field you get to hear about the odd DataCenter failure, but they are really as rare as hen's teeth. Level3 took a battering in London, one from a flood and one from a break-in iirc. But I hardly ever hear about them being due to faulty Datacenter hardware that's designed to protect the site from outages.

If BT put these profilers in there and the place goes down, you're looking at a 24-48 hour downtime for the internetfor those connecting through Cardiff.

This probably only relates to 21CN stuff (i.e. BT spin-off companies and others on 21CN jumping on the bandwagon if it goes ahead).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

have a look on www.dephormation.org.uk

petes got a good collection of tools up there, i have a working IIS jave script as well

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

deporhmation definition has one to alert people to phorm only problem is they do not have one to make it clear you do not want phorm to intercept yoru website data. Oh well i will write one and post the code here :)

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

Is the depormation site javascript meant to say i have a opt-out cookie?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

try http://www.dephormation.org.uk/?page=6

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now you can 'opt-out' of googles system of cookie tracking!!

source ... http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9594

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pete's tools include redirection to an inphormation page which will be the only page on your site that a Phorm'd visitor can access. It's up to you what REphorming educational aids you put on that page. Here's what someone with phorged cookies pretending to be from my domain, gets on my site.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have a good look through the solutions, I'm sure everything you need is there (or at least, enough to get you closer).

First htaccess can be used to block BT customers from your site completely (see Dephormation for a file of Deny directives). Its a blunt instrument, but 100% effective.

Second, the "Javascript Tripwire Test" is intended to detect and reject a visitor with any cookies set (if your site doesn't use cookies), or a visitor with a Phorm UID cookie (if you use cookies, but want to detect Phorm). If a Phormed visitor is detected, you can send them off to Badphorm, or even a Google search for "donkeys".

Third, a trivial piece of PHP ("Server Dephormation") can be used to unwrite or corrupt a Phorm UID, and rewrite an opt out cookie (though Phorm still copy the pages anyway, they just don't deliver ads). The details of the cookies Phorm sets aren't entirely clear yet, but if the code is in place, its simply a matter of a string replacement. [Beware, this may cause users to become alarmed if they find apparent Phorm cookies appearing unexpectedly].

I've got a couple of other contributed solutions to add, hopefully this weekend, that involve other excellent methods of reliable detection. Including counting cookies, and a two cookie test which spots Phorm hiding their UID cookie.

Regards RIPA and Copyright, its not your obligation to make BT legal. Its BT's obligation to rediscover legality, and abide by the law. Put a copyright and RIPA notice on your site.

One other recommended option, if available to you, provide complete content encryption using SSL. This will stop Phorm gaining access to your content, though they may still gain marketing intelligence about your visitors by IP address (though they claim not to).

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone alerted Private Eye? They would surely relish many of the issues - DPA, RIPA, Privacy, browser redirection, censorship of forum posts..... I'll get in touch. Maybe if many of us did they'd be be more likely to get interested.

gnilddif

Before I do - assuming they haven't yet heard of phorm/Webwise what is the best single link that will attract them that has a basic introduction to all that's bad about it please?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

or Dork Talk in the Guardian Weekend magazine. (Stephen Fry). Guardian readers make good protestors, as they know their way around the system despite jibes about sandals and beards.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've e-mailed PE twice. The first time (April 6th) pointing them to inphormationdesk, just telling them they will love it.

The second time I pointed them to NoDPI and the leaked document (June 4th).

It's worth persisting with it, we just need to show the story is good enough to overcome their desire to keep the ad people happy.

@Robert

Stephen Fry would be a good one to get on board (the owner of the 4th Mac in the UK etc).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think there are three good links actually - for beginners. I would rather not send them to forum threads straight away - forums are scary for the uninitiated.

The Inphormation desk - a single page with lots of good inphormation
Websie Explained - because it semi-spoofs the real Webwise FAQ
the phorm leaflet/flyer - proven effective in field trials! I've lost my links for that one.

and there is also post 11849 - see my sig for the link!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

gnlldll,
private eye emailed

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Had a reply from MVPS HOSTS file people, in response to me sending them some urls. Very positive - and yes they are waiting for it to go live. They updated some of the info on various domains I sent them

sysip.net = parked and no longer active
http://whois.domaintools.com/sysip.net

webwise.net = domain is "For Sale"
http://whois.domaintools.com/webwise.net

pagesense.com = parked and no longer active
http://whois.domaintools.com/pagesense.com

oix.net = domain is "For Sale"
http://whois.domaintools.com/oix.net

Now don't get too excited about those For Sale notices. I'm sure they're just selling the ones they don't need...

I think someone should buy sysip.net and give it a small tombstone. It deserves it's place in history. Perhaps Mr Mainwaring could put in a bid?

In fact some of these domains could be purchased and used for all manner of useful inphormation!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well The Olympics has started and I can find no BT press release about the trial.

Ho hum.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just picked this up Courtesy of Badphorm

http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=6728

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me too :)
And I've asked all 130 my facebook Friends to join this group:
http://www.facebook.com/groups.php?r...gid=9216870661

and tell their Friends...that could build a nice pyramid, and we might see more signatures on the petition and more Webwise awareness spreading.

g

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think he is going to rebrand, Phorm/WebWise/OIX brands are currently erm can't swear on here so I will just say *beep* so I would not be at all surprised if Kent does what he is best at - rebrand. Or maybe they just can't afford the renewal fees ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Noooo. Can't explain the reason why just yet, but nooooo! :cry:

:D

Just tried to offer $1 on Sedo.... so much for Phorms intangible assets...

Your offer for webwise.net
Please note:
Unfortunately your entry contained errors. Please review the fields marked in red and correct your entry.
# Your offer is too low.
Premium domain names typically sell for three or four-figure amounts, and sellers will simply not respond to a bid if it is too low. If you need help setting a price, you can request an expert Domain Appraisal. You are REQUIRED to enter a bid of at least 60 USD.

$60?

That won't pay off the loans...

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

OK, I can take rejection...

Your offer for webwise.net
Please note:
Unfortunately your entry contained errors. Please review the fields marked in red and correct your entry.
# Unfortunately your offer was too low and has been rejected!
Please enter an offer that at least meets the minimum price of 850 EUR. The minimum price is 850 EUR, which is currently equivalent to approx. 1,315 USD.

$1,315?

That won't go far.

I wonder if its a hoax :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just offered them 10$ to buy and then take it out of circulation.

Your offer for webwise.net

Please note:
Unfortunately your entry contained errors. Please review the fields marked in red and correct your entry.
# Unfortunately your offer was too low and has been rejected! Please enter an offer that at least meets the minimum price of 850 EUR. The minimum price is 850 EUR, which is currently equivalent to approx. 1,315 USD.