Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I may be behind the curve here, but I've just discovered that the webwise site is now serving UID cookies to Virgin Media customers via a.webwise.net. The content ("unique" identifier) in the cookie seems to fit the stated format for a production-version Phorm cookie.
It occurs to me that even if, as they claim, VM have not trialled the Phorm DPI kit in their customer network yet, if they ever do, then those of us who are curious about the technology and have visited www.webwise.com to find out further information will immediately be identified to the interception kit by this cookie.
This could result in the mistaken assumption that we have already been presented with the "invitation" page and accepted, thus preventing the invitation from ever being displayed, and our browsing being profiled without our knowledge. (I have, of course, deleted the cookie now)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>But Google Mail is doing just this, and where is the huge outcry? Facebook did just this with Beacon - and haven't pulled it, merely adapted it.

We have already addressed the issue of Google Mail many times over. There is no comparison.

>John, sorry, but it it is an advertising argument – and you telling me you can block all ads everywhere – you are having a laugh! Everything will have a digital connection – your Mobile, PC, TV, Outdoor – so pop-up blockers are going to have to get a lot more specific to block out all ads you are exposed to during your day…

I successfully block 99.9% of all ads on the web. I've been surfing ad-free for a few years now. Of course I am constantly bombarded with ads when I go into public spaces. This is not something I'm happy with, and, in fact, I think it's a problem which needs to be addressed... unless the public eventually wants to end up with every square inch of public space covered in ads.

>I hear your frustration, and equally share it – but I also want you to see the much bigger picture (without negating any of your valid views)

>Netscape floated in 1995 and started the dotcom rush. No-one could turn data into hard cash and hence dotcom crash. Google stood up with pay-per-click and turned the tide – and look at the superbrand they have become as result.

Google doesn't track your every move across the web. Furthermore, you can delete Google cookies, or choose not to use Google, or use Google Scraper:

https://ssl.scroogle.org/

>Now BT Vision is about taking those media streams and making them dynamic and personally relevant. Dynamic advertising insertion that will be personable to the user is equally key as we all watch TV very different to how we did 40 years ago, which is when the TV model was born. We have more choice, which means harder for advertisers to lock-on to any person so broadcast TV is under threat as advertisers won’t pay as can no longer target based on viewing habits, users don’t want to pay BBC license fees, and as result no money coming in to create and distribute content – that is why they are looking for smarter alternatives, such as mobile phone in’s and crap reality programmes to create revenue to create decent TV programmes..

Isn't it the case that advertising is shifting away from TV, simply because people are spending less and less time watching TV and more time on the web - especially 'target' groups who are young, wealthy, and have disposable income?

>That is why they want Phorm - not just for 'website traffic' but to track what you are doing when you are communicating, surfing and watching TV content (hence Sky requirement of telephone line to supplement a receiver dish) and not only serve you relevant content from the plethora of channel choices out there now, but also to insert targeted and relevant ads into those TV streams, and as a result are happy to give away (eventually) free web access. (BT is planning on rolling out free wi-fi).

You know, you're not doing a very good job at selling Phorm, here...

>So you think Phorm will die? Did DoubleClick when they were taken to court for tracking people in the 90’s – urrrmmm how much did Google pay for them last year?!

Many advertising/spyware companies did, in fact, die. 121Media died precisely because users wouldn't tolerate it. There is no logical reason why the same will not happen to Phorm. It is, after all, an intrusive spyware technology, just like its predecessor.

>I have no huge answers, but you are not going to stop this (completely) as long as people want quality and relevant content – so surely will be better if we can think how can we ensure that there is an acceptable line for all parties that delivers relevance whilst maintaining (a degree) of anonymity?

The issue isn't only anonymity (though the ability to use private data in an 'anonymous fashion' is a mirage: http://www.dephormation.org.uk/?page=33), but privacy. Privacy means non-disclosure of personal information which a person doesn't want disclosed. So, even in a theoretical example where anonymity is 100% assured (not the case with Phorm, btw), many people will still object because they simply don't want their private data being used/exploited for commercial or other gain.

>Isn't that how we will win?

No.

Here is a suggestion:

Have an ISP advertise a service to users which will offer free internet access, or discounts with participating sellers in exchange for the following: A user must go to a certain ISPs page, and OPT-IN to an agreement. This agreement means that the customer must fill in 20 questions related to his or her demographic information and interests. They customer promises that the information is truthful and promises to update the information. The customer is then given information to sign up to a proxy server to get his internet connection (this can alternatively be done very easily with a plugin) and given a cookie.

There is no need to intercept data. Participating websites (like the OIX concept) can serve targeted ads based on the cookie.

In this way, the customer wins, the advertiser wins, no DPI is taking place, and no internet standards are broken, no copyright violation takes place, no forged cookies are made, and no reputations destroyed.

If the pull for free content as you say is so strong, then people will be dying to opt-in to this scheme to get a free net connection or discounts on goods.

We don't have to look at advertising in black & white. Advertising can take place without it being intrusive and a violating people's privacy. Phorm is intrusive and it does violate people's privacy. Furthermore, it violates internet standards and is illegal.

It will no survive.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Where were you when there was disscussion in Parliament last month, Peter, when I questioned how the government is going to effectively legislate when technology moves faster then changes to law?

Come meet me for a coffee, think you will find there are plenty of us with media and technology industry who are prepared to work these issues through in a little more detail then merely an online petition and a faceless thread...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>work these issues through in a little more detail then merely an online petition and a faceless thread...

Oh, don't worry. We're doing a lot more than that to ensure Phorm never succeeds.

I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions, feesch.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a very patronising attitude. There are people on this thread who are far more technology-literate than you, and who have dissected and understood every technical detail of how the Phorm system works. There are others who are legal and human rights specialists that have considered at great length the social and privacy implications of this system. Contrast that with an individual who makes a living in the media and technology (advertising) industry, who has a vested interest in ensuring that this system is accepted.

By the way, how can an internet chat forum have a face?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=Florence;34613430]

I don't watch TV programs on my computer dont wish to watch them.

QUOTE]

I watch TV on my computer, but I use a TV card & antenna.
Which is the logical way of limiting any necessary bandwidth!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly - hence my use of the term "scrape" :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@feesch.
On here and on your own forum you have said: "That is why they want Phorm - not just for 'website traffic' but to track what you are doing when you are communicating, surfing and watching TV content (hence Sky requirement of telephone line to supplement a receiver dish) and not only serve you relevant content from the plethora of channel choices out there now, but also to insert targeted and relevant ads into those TV streams, and as a result are happy to give away (eventually) free web access. (BT is planning on rolling out free wi-fi)"
This is totally incorrect as I subscribe to Sky and do not have a telephone connection to the box. You state this as a fact after telling us you KNOW all about the subject and yet if you are wrong about tis what else might you be wrong about?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome eth01 - do tell us a bit about yourself and your interest in Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The law says intercepting communications is illegal.

The law says copying content without a licence is illegal.

The law says misuse of computers is illegal.

The law is sufficient to make Phorm illegal to operate.
At risk of putting words into Peter's mouth...

There is no scope for negotiation or compromise. Nothing to "work through".

Privacy, security, and integrity of data communications must not be violated by unethical parasitic advertising systems.

Last time people met to discuss Phorm, we were promised a video, but apparently Kent doesn't want that made public.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/57.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The "free wi-fi" that Feesch refers to is actually paid for by customers who allow other people access to part of their bandwidth and is marketted as BT Fon.

Hardly BT providing something at their own cost but then we all know better than to take anything that comes from the advertising industry as being bsed on facts or genuine research.

I hope that Feesch's Masters Degree paper was better researched than his postings here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/57.gif
Look out KE with a belt and wellies..........Run

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch-

In the interests of transparency, could please state whether you are here *solely* on your interest, or are here as part of a campaign, in your professional capacity as an employee of Eyeblaster, on behalf of Phorm or Kent Erturgrul?

http://eyeblaster.com/company/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Phormwatch. Think the number maybe wrong there, but assuming you mean the questions around:

was 'PeopleonPage' ethical and did I agree that videoed discussion should have been censored/unreleased?

POP - I think this is a difficult one, and I cite Facebook Aps to this avail. They are doing the same thing - but becuase users have chosen to install the aps, does that mean they should be tracked? Yet it seems to defy all boundaries of saying you can have this but at a price that is unrealistic - in this case human privacy. Surely we should see virtual commodities relating to privacy as a value equal to application. By this I mean if you want to know I have downloaded software to what I am saying, there should be somekind on grading as to what is being traded between the user and developer, and not a dictatorial decision by some over-eager marketing exec who wants data for the sake of it to justify his job. We are dealing with people at the end of the day.

I would need to read more about POP to make a complete value judgement on this. Feel free to clarify.

Ok, the second issue something I often discuss in my presentations. What web 2.0 has done (starting with ratings/reviews by Amazon) is given the consumer a voice-back to the advertiser. No longer is advertsing a single-way. If advertisers expect two-way interaction, then they alos have to be preapred for negative fall-out. This is new and most do not know how to handle effectively I agree. The only ensible option, to remain credible, is to show the problems and then offer solutions and to embrace any comments as constructive criticsm and feed into product development. Obvious statements like "don't buy this car" in reference to Chevy Tahoe fiasco, are taken at merit, and would expect "ban Phorm" to same degree. Chevy are not going to stop making cars, but will have to find ways to make better cars.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ----------

Peter, would you not see the number of PVRs and people searching YouTube content, video iPods and Archos and slingbox flying off shelves, and browsing capabilities of webTV/IPTV as evidence that todays consumer wants choice and control over their content in a way that is different form braodcast schedules. They want to watch it when they want, on a device that may be other than their TV set, and in a location that suits them.

So therefore people want more relevant content. But to this I would also add "control".

But this is anecodotal from observation as opposed to me having any study to hand right now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is still looking at it from the advertisers view. It's not about advertising. It's about the interception of private communications for commercial purposes without the informed consent of both parties. That is totally unacceptable whether it is post, telephone, TV or internet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's great, feesch, but I see you studiously avoided answering the questions.

Here is a 'reminder' of what PeopleOnPage is, and its behavour:

"121media, the former name of Phorm, has had its products described as spyware.[9] As 121Media it distributed a program called PeopleOnPage[10], which was classified as spyware by F-Secure.[11] PeopleOnPage was an application built around their advertising engine called ContextPlus. ContextPlus was also distributed as a root kit called Apropos[10][12], which used tricks to prevent the user from removing the application and sent information back to central servers regarding a user's browsing habits.[13]

In November 2005 the Center for Democracy and Technology in the US filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission over distribution of what it considered spyware, including ContextPlus. They stated that they had investigated and uncovered deceptive and unfair behaviour. This complaint was filed in concert with the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Internet Center, a group that was filing a similar complaint against Integrated Search Technologies with Canadian authorities.[14]

In May 2006 ContextPlus shut down its operations and stated "[Contextplus are] no longer able to ensure the highest standards of quality and customer care". The shutdown came after several major lawsuits against adware vendors had been launched.[15] Phorm has countered this with an admission of a company history in adware and the closing down of a multi-million dollar revenue stream as people confused adware with spyware.[13]"

Is it really 'difficult' for you to see that 'deceptive and unfair behaviour' of software classified by anti-virus vendors as 'Spyware' is unethical?

>Ok, the second issue something I often discuss in my presentations. What web 2.0 has done (starting with ratings/reviews by Amazon) is given the consumer a voice-back to the advertiser. No longer is advertsing a single-way. If advertisers expect two-way interaction, then they alos have to be preapred for negative fall-out. This is new and most do not know how to handle effectively I agree. The only ensible option, to remain credible, is to show the problems and then offer solutions and to embrace any comments as constructive criticsm and feed into product development. Obvious statements like "don't buy this car" in reference to Chevy Tahoe fiasco, are taken at merit, and would expect "ban Phorm" to same degree. Chevy are not going to stop making cars, but will have to find ways to make better cars.

How about answering the question instead of spinning and marketing? I wasn't asking what you thought about how companies in general need to approach marketing and PR in the age of two-way mass communication. I was asking specifically whether you thought Phorm's behaviour, with respect to withholding the town video after declaring publicly that it would be released, was inappropriate and unethical.

How about a straightforward answer?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed! DO I agree with Police having access to little black boxes at ISP level, What about your boss monitoring what goes on via your exchange server? So you look at something online, against company rules, and you get sacked. How would that stand in court? That is generally the thrust of that argument.

I guess the anology would be better would be what right does WH Smith have to have a say in how to advertise in magazines on their shelves, and by that I mean they are far removed from the media publisher. Reality is WHS are keen to justify effects of circulation versus advertising having an impact on the audience alongside the publisher. To that level media IS about reaching the right audience, and if they could work out that one store sells one type of magazine based on their demographics aginst another store, then their is a connection between the seller and the media publisher, and what magazines to stock.

Now appreciate the web is a different gambit, but to some degree they are operating as a conduit. I think that is how the ISPs see themelsves in relation to the website owners. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am answering your question to show their side, as opposed to endorsing methods, here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's just data, it's exactly what the internet was designed for.

False dilemma.

You should be in comedy :) I don't accept 3rd party cookies, I don't have a facebook account and I'm not going to be Phormed. You can't claim to be tech savvy and not be aware of the disdain for "web 2.0", it was called DHTML when we were doing stuff like that a decade ago. Executives buy the emperors new clothes, we in the trenches see right through what we're being paid to tailor.

I don't care about winning, I care about not having my communications illegally intercepted by network level malware. Nothing else is relevant to this discussion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So full of Double standards & trying to use such statements as:-

"They want to watch it when they want, on a device that may be other than their TV set, and in a location that suits them"

As a a possible excuse to SPY on everthing they Surf about!

My Thoughts, actions & intellect are shared with the people & instutions I decide are worthy.(That includes both parties interlectual property)

"No other entity has the right to intercept, record, modify or adjust such actions or data without specific consent, with the exception of lawful processes in order to protect society!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I admin a few mail servers, if I were to read users private emails how would that stand in court? That's the thrust of the argument, you appear to have gotten it backwards.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its not quatity, its quality. All posters, TV sets will get a digital connection - you are seeing "online" as pure browser-based PC activity. The same technology putting ads in browsers will put them on mobiles and digital TV and outdoor.

> Google doesn't track your every move across the web. Furthermore, you can delete Google cookies, or choose not to use Google, or use Google

Again, digital is not limited to the web... and besides have you not seen
http://www.google.com/adwords/tvads/


>Isn't it the case that advertising is shifting away from TV, simply because people are spending less and less time watching TV and more time on the web - especially 'target' groups who are young, wealthy, and have disposable income?

To some degree yes, they are also media-meshing - which is a phrase that is used to show relation of multiple methods of getting content - like watching TV whilst having laptop on knee and mobile in hand. Not just losing TV audience to web, but how you spend your time. So yes some are wayching with iPlayer for example, but what also is seen is how search goes practically vertical on a graph at time a TV ad goes on air - showing a correlation between ad effectiveness of TV and the user wanting to find out more. I myself find I think of something in a cab, and then Google it on iPhone, so we see external stimulii linking back to web activity. That is what people are trying to figure out how to enhance that experience based on user behaviour.

People who have disposable income are out doing stuff, disposing of their income, not sitting in on the web all the time... ;-)

>You know, you're not doing a very good job at selling Phorm, here...

I neither work for them, nor agree with everything they do, but I can see some technological merit - which is bizarre as I myself do not want to be tracked.

>121Media died precisely because users wouldn't tolerate it. There is no logical reason why the same will not happen to Phorm. It is, after all, an intrusive spyware technology, just like its predecessor.

I have a feeling they will survive, but need to adapt as opposed to ram ideas down everyones throat.

>>Here is a suggestion:
A user must go to a certain ISPs page, and OPT-IN to an agreement. This agreement means that the customer must fill in 20 questions related to his or her demographic information and interests. They customer promises that the information is truthful and promises to update the information. The customer is then given information to sign up to a proxy server to get his internet connection (this can alternatively be done very easily with a plugin) and given a cookie.

SPOT ON!!!! This is something I too have been toying around with. It equally is flawed, but is definately a move in the right direction. There is a business case in there that will make someone a LOT of money.

But you are right, dictatorial approaches are archaic and manipulating the public is not the way to move on this, its a matter of embracing them and giving them choice.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello, I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I also would appreciate it if Madslug would explain in more detail what the error I made was.

I'm not sure if the reference is to the fact that webwise cookie is stripped away as the query is sent to the actual website or if the reference was to a different part of the article. I always want to be absolutely correct in my articles, so I'd appreciate any clarification.

Thanks,

Michael P. Kassner

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can and do walk through W H Smith and do not make any purchases and they don't ask me for my PI or lift my wallet read the contents then replace it without my consent or noticing what they did, so that the next time I visit there is a scantily clad youn thing trying to sell me something that they found out about by lifting my wallet. Is that what you mean.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@feesch.
You haven't replied to my statement regarding Sky TV and the fact that you do NOT need to be connected by telephone. Do you concede that you are wrong on that point?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So long as the proxy identifies itself in HTTP requests, I'd have no issues with this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Accepted and apologise on patronisation.

Did I not say there were "many"? Was a statement against a narrow-minded point of view - and you yourself are running media down as some lesser actvity. So thanks!

Point being no-one here wants isolation, its a debate isn't it - and and am not pushing wares, but happy to look at both points of view - and happy to bring a different perspective.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What I find so hard to understand is why BT is making so much effort to track everyone everywhere. Their tracking cookies are reaching the stage where I don't want to go anywhere near any BT sites.

One domain for the hosts files: btcom.112.2o7.net

I really don't like scripts that send someone like 2o7 information about my computer, including what plug-ins are installed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@ feesch
and that perspective is ..............

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Last time I tried to get sky (couple of years back), and knowing from others who subscibe to service, it 'was' a requirement. Would need to check if has subsequently changed then. Either way, that was their reason and intention. Why else would there there be a need to faciliaite a two-way connection to a satellite box? Curious to know if they have ditched this or have some technological improvement to facilitate this another way, as they would need to 'see' what the viewer is doing for business justification surely?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many steps do you need to go down a particular road (possibly in the wrong direction), before it you pass the point on "no" return!

http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1130481.php?mpnlog=1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not a lawyer, and that is something we will need to see if can be upheld, or if there is some way around either the law or their method of operations to come within the law. Surfice to say DoubleClick got around it,
http://www.junkbusters.com/new.html#DCLK

and even more recent Google did with hedging off length of time they needed to store cookies - the fact that data can be passed to police before they needed to clear their cache, or users accessing Google refreshes their date of access, just shows what an ass the law is in legislating privacy concerns.

Agree on 'unethical' aspects. Can't state that advertsing per se is unethical though, and that is the role of the ASA to ensure that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:notopic:

This discussion on Phorm, Webwise, and the use of DPI interception for targetted behavioural advertising purposes, has become diverted temporarily Off Topic into a discussion about advertising per se. I personally object to this and do not wish participate in this diversion.

I don't wish to discuss advertising. I wish to stay on topic and put a halt to the illegal interception of my internet data, as an ISP customer, and the illegal exploitation of my intellectual property as a webmaster, and my private data exchange with my site visitors, for the commercial gain of those who have no legal right to do any of these things, and who have dissembled, diverted, obfuscated, lied, misled, broken promises, hidden the truth, and are continuing to do so to further their own ends at my expense.

I'd personally rather you promoted your particular digital advertising interests in another thread or confined yourself to the specifics of this one.

Perhaps you might like to start a separate thread to discuss advertising and also to advertise your expertise in the subject?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it? Was it?

Web is unicast, TV is broadcast... there is no way an ISP will be able to deliver real-time TV content to every individual user at a time they want to watch it. That is why Sky's films on demand is like 30 min intervals to find a middle ground.

Thats also why the idea around moving over to multi-casting as a way around this before the internet grinds to a halt.

Different discussion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you took the subsidised box it had to connect it to the phone line for the first year - I think if you did not comply you would have to pay the full price for the box. There are two reasons for the connection, one to monitor what you watch, the other (probably more important to Sky) is so that you can puchase pay per view content. Anyway as this is totally OT I suggest you search on google, or ask in a sky forum.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm aside, i have issues with that last statement - WHO has that right? We are setting systems in place that can you imagine if someone like Hitler got his hands on what could be done?! I think you find Hitler stated something like 'protecting society'...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch-

I'm amazed that you link to articles such as the junkbusters article above, and then in the same breadth say that it is 'something we will need to see' whether there is some way around the law - and then expect us to support it.

Laws relating to privacy concerns are there because people don't want their privacy violated. This is a fundamental human right, and is enshrined in both EU and UN human rights charters. Furthermore, if people do not feel confident about their privacy (online or otherwise) then this will affect the information they divulge, the technology they use, and the business they do transactions with - all of which may negatively damage the economy.

Privacy laws are not some problem which need to be worked around or rescinded. They are something to be cherished and re-enforced. If Phorm and related spyware technologies are incompatible with privacy legislation and the expectations of the public, then they must be stopped. It is they who have to change.

PS: You still haven't answered my questions in post #13116. What, specifically, do you think of Phorm's conduct in terms of ethics?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally personal.

Like I said, I do not agree in being tracked, but to some degree goes part and parcel with the web - and has been the contention (i.e. cookies) since June 1994 prior to Netscape release in Oct of same year.

But working in the indsutry I have a vested interest in hearing both sides of the argument for sure, but that is only to ensure that things can move forward, as we said 'ethically'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:notopic:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

R Jones

I agree that we should stick to the topic, but a diversion for a few hours will not do any harm. This thread will remain a focal point for the campaign against Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:notopic:
We are not discussing "tracking" - we are discussing the use of DPI, illegal interception of web traffic, and the illegal copying and exploitation of website traffic and website/visitor data exchange. There are no ethical ways of breaking the law. Please can we stay on topic?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Commercial is either license or advertising, that was my point. Again did not say I agreed, merley that was their intention - and from studies I have seen users would be accepting of any model that was cheaper for them in long run.

Judging by by 10MM who signed upto Oystercard, I wonder if the mass number of people would choose convenience over being spied on - or could even make the connection? To illustrate a different spyware operation.

Also, do you not think web and personal are antithesis?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's a vast difference between the police lawfully monitoring communications in the investigation of suspected criminal activity or even an employer monitoring his employee's use of the company connection, and a private company monitoring your own paid for private connection for financial gain.


What about BT employees, I understand that they get free BT connections as a perk. So unless BT specifically exclude their employees' broadband connections from passing through a Phorm DPI device, then their employer will effectively be monitoring their private communications even when they are at home - If I was a BT employee, I'd either be talking to the union to get employees lines excluded from phorm's DPI devices or moving my ADSL to another provider.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hold on - difficult to keep up! ;-)

Thanks for that. Can you share the source?

In relation to first - theres your answer in bold. They did not give user choice. So in that regards this is where crux of argument lies. Not as to whether the technology has beneifts or commercial jutification or even user merit, but in adoption of a system that fundamentlaly takes away that choice, which is not acceptible. SO that needs to be addressed.

In relation to second: Well it was obvous their PR decision - one they thought they could control and realised the you could not.

I answered that, no it was not correct. They should have released, and addressed concerns squarely. Hence my example with Chevy, as that is exaclty how they handled it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not more powerful, just faster & thankfully we still have a Parliamentary Voting System?

By that is OT so back to Phorm & DPI Tracking!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Maggie. Did not see orginal topic, jumped in half way through after being prompted off-thread in response to different article.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>Thanks for that. Can you share the source?

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PeopleOnPage

Thanks for answering my questions, though you forgot to mention that they acted 'unethically', and not just with poor strategy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jesus ppl.
13,000 + replys in this thread :dd
Can anyone tell me if vm are going to be using phom?
As i'm not going through 13,000 + answers to find out :p

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Marketing people conflate two things, the Web and the Internet.

The Web is a database of web pages. And the Internet is a communication network over which those pages are transferred.

Conventional advertising on Web pages doesn't trouble me. Tracking on a particular web site doesn't trouble me provided the data is not shared and serves a useful purpose to me (eg recommendations or offers). Tracking across web sites is intrusive, and now bothers me a lot. I have actively taken steps to suppress it at every single opportunity (Dan Pollocks DNS list, MVPS DNS list, Privoxy, Adblock plus, and of course Dephormation).

Where Phorm Webwise differs is the manner in which the marketing intelligence is gathered. Phorm is not 'part and parcel' of the Web. Phorm uses Internet communications as its source of data. Phorm don't bother to seek the consent of the web sites whose content they exploit, communications they spy on, traffic they corrupt, and whose visitors they steal.

That is a parasitic business model; it exploits other peoples hard work and creativity, without permission or licence.

That must never happen. You used the word 'gambit'. There is no gambit (in the sense of a sacrifice) on offer. Simply 'checkmate'.

Phorm must be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Correct we haven't had the phone connected to our sky box for 4 years not had any issues..

What most of you are missing is Google, facebook, msn, and all others we can delete cookies and their tracknig ceases on us we refuse cookies from thjem they cannot continue to track me..

Phorm/webwise on my ISP there is neve a real off I have to trust the word of someone I wouldn't trust with protecting my life that my privacy isn't going to be profiled.
Google crawls the website doesn't intercept the website transmission.

What is sad is all of you fail to see the difference you see money, adverts and it is to hell with privacy.

We cannot allow our privacy to be invaided.
why should we?
Why should someone we have had dealings with be allowed to stalk me!
Yes following me about the internet is stalking me.
I have moved from one ISP because of Phorm and would do it again if I had to....

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:52 ----------

Cough it is at the top of every page that means it is repeated in this thread 877 times.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Currently keeping their cards close to their chest.

However in April 2008 they said;

We are currently at the early stages of working to deliver the Webwise solution and will be writing to you nearer the time to advise when the solution will be ‘switched on’ providing more detail of what this will mean to you.

Also

Why has Virgin Media partnered with Phorm?
We are very keen to ensure our customers have a safer online experience, but without blocking access. In this respect Webwise allows us to alert customers that they may be attempting to visit a site known to be fraudulent. Additionally, by providing customers with more relevant advertising, they should be able to find products and services that are more interesting for them.

When we started asking difficult questions, Virgin brought down the shutters and starting ignoring customer concerns.
Which was enough for me.
I closed my accounts (all of them) and won't be going back.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's the point ginge51.This thread is about the concerted efforts to stop BT,VM and any other ISP who are considering using Phorm and trying to get the authorities to rule it's use as illegal.Unfortunately until the latter happens it's like asking how long is a piece of string. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is this you http://www.linkedin.com/pub/2/A03/B44

If so what is youir links into this phorm affair?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Appreciate difference between web and internet, but the system won't just be monitoring 'web' activity, but any activity running over the Intenet - so that will include IPTV and mobile (and in time) billboards as will all go via the same routing.

The bigger picture is in joining all the dots, linking consumer behaviour to all display devices.

We are discussing BT and Virgin - they are not just after distributing websites, they are content distributors of TV streams.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My 6 month contract is due up any time now.
I've no bt line though :(
I won't be staying if this phom starts to be used that's for sure.

---------- Post added at 00:01 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

They'll lose so many customers over this.
Why bother?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Money.:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well mine says "Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts" so not that obvious. Want some Benelyn?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally like the world these days, everything is surveillanced everywhere.
Like in America, I've just read that the authority's will soon be able to conferscate"ANYONE'S" laptop even if they have no link whatsoever to terrorism.
All's this causes is a world of paranoia.
Anyway back on topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Goodness knows.

Here are some money saving tips for getting your line sorted out, and moving away from Virgin Media... BadPhorm:Moving Away from Cable

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you try to equate People's Private, Personal data with dots all you'll end up with is data like this


The bigger picture is in joining all the dots, linking consumer behaviour to all display devices.
XSMäz#ÂÂÂ�èÇef:Ãà ¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’±Ãº/l&øþ$•7‹ Ë;aÃÂÂ�©;%SÞó #[áË
ö5O� r†|Q
®ÃÂÂ�jËœQÂÂÂ�Ãâ€℠¢WÃÅ ´™!ÃÂÂ�]Y¹ÓiÒÖà ƒâ„¢Ã’Ã’vxâöÃà ¢â‚¬Â°Ãƒâ€šÃ‚°ÃƒÂÂ�kW)°ÒÃ⠀šÃ‚¡

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Feesch's post and writing style are getting more familiar now. He is not here to make any relevent points and is trying to divert your attention.

Notice the degeneration of his basic ability to write in English during a Saturday evening and you'll soon understand...

Come meet me for a coffee, think you will find there are plenty of us with media and technology industry who are prepared to work these issues through in a little more detail then merely an online petition and a faceless thread...

Plenty of us with media - that's not even remotely grammatical

Think the number maybe wrong there, but assuming you mean the questions around:

was 'PeopleonPage' ethical and did I agree that videoed discussion should have been censored/unreleased?

...nor is that

Its not quatity, its quality. All posters, TV sets will get a digital connection - you are seeing "online" as pure browser-based PC activity. The same technology putting ads in browsers will put them on mobiles and digital TV and outdoor.

That is ungrammatical, mispelled and very badly written especially when compared with his earlier posts.

Did I not say there were "many"? Was a statement against a narrow-minded point of view - and you yourself are running media down as some lesser actvity. So thanks!

Point being no-one here wants isolation, its a debate isn't it - and and am not pushing wares, but happy to look at both points of view - and happy to bring a different perspective.

That is ungrammatical, badly written, poorly spelled and aggresive.

Good money says that he had a few - probably Stella judging by the attitude shift.

As the wife would say - "leave him - it's not worth it"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Peter-

With respect, I don't think Dean's spelling or grammar mistakes are really relevant to the discussion.

I don't agree with his approach to online privacy or security, but I think we shouldn't be rude, just as we try not to be with other people who show up on this forum from time to time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're not reading the last line of most of my posts (Phorm must be stopped).

I don't want my dots joined thanks. If my ISP does that, particularly in secret as BT/Phorm did in 2006 and 2007, they will be -1 customer (ask Virgin if you don't believe me).

All data, on the wires, looks like this: 100101110011010100101010.

Web traffic, email, SMS, VOIP, IPTV, whatever you care to mention.

The moment you concede interception of that data for marketing, there is no coherent argument to say "...but not this type of data, or that type of data".

That is why I make no concession, and keep saying; Phorm must be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dropping out at this point (bedtime!) and won't be online tomorrow.
Please, concede nothing to the idea that the privacy, security, and integrity of data communication is a marketing 'gambit' when you debate Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If I have a contract for internet then I expect this internet to be delivered without any interceptions for stalking me over the internet to furnish me with adverts..

I didn't have VM televison as our sky package gave more for less money

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you.

---------- Post added at 23:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:29 ----------

maybe. Maybe not.

May wish to take a look at this (EU directive) whihc have been monitoring for a while.
http://ec.europa.eu/information_soci...aper_final.pdf

look at challenge 4, pg 21.

---------- Post added at 23:42 ---------- Previous post was at 23:34 ----------

Another article I was reading a while back was EU online privacy, may be intresting to some.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documen...etention-data/

Out of here also. Apologies for spelling folks, been travelling continuously for a while. Could do with a beer!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mine doesn't. It looks like this: 01101011010010100101110100100

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What a nasty page. - Uses Flash to try and download content from youtube.com onto the hard drive. I wonder why that would be?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wasn't criticising his writing abilities in isolation. I was highlighting the fact that his posts have degenerated in style and content during the course of the evening and suggesting that responding to him in his current state of mind may no longer be appropriate or productive.

If and when Feesch is ready to talk to us in a manner befitting the seriousness of the subject I am happy to debate but he is clearly indisposed at present and is no longer making any sense.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fair enough - I'll leave you all to it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Function creep? What do you know that we have not been told? Monitoring of 'any' content over the web? So much for being assured that only port 80 will be intercepted.

If BT and Virgin need more money for TV content then they need to earn it from their TV customers. No point supplying a product below cost. The last time I looked, my TV sat in the corner using radio waves which are relatively cheep and are transmitted only once.

If mobile needs more money, they can charge mobile users.

Digital media - do you mean something like DAB radio which uses up so much battery power that most people won't be able to listen all day. You think anyone will be happy having to pay extra to received targeted content?

Why don't you think about websites? Each website has to pay for the bandwidth used by their visitors. Do you really think that a 3rd party system which makes use of that bandwidth to make money for themselves and not for the website is going to be able to survive? It is illegal to take copyrighted content and use it for commercial uses (whether or not a profit is made) without paying a royalty or agreeing a licence fee.

A website pays a lot of money for content and bandwidth. That is a direct expense against revenue.

The ISP and DPI systems want to just help themselves to that bandwidth and web content to make money for themselves and their shareholders. And to earn that income without making any payment to the owners of that content nor offering any reimbursement for the bandwidth cost.

They are in cloud cuckoo land - and will just have to accept that in this case it is the cuckoo's egg that will be removed from the nest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let bt, virgin or whoever roll phorm/webwise out now if they have that much confidence in it then, see if net users are just sheep as so many think they are.

Dont let anyone that trolls about share prices or how advertising needs to do this get on your nerves, remember that as soon as you see any invitation page from your isp (thats interception plain and simple) any of your data could be mirrored anything could be harvested just phorms words of trust us (like trusting harold shipman to be your doctor).

Even if any isp offered me a free 100mb connection with added phorm i still wouldnt take it sure a few might but not those in the know no way, bt might risk another trial as they are in the black and could loose a few customers and take fines, virgin though will say nothing not one thing about it yet with them still being in the red mass exodus will hurt the company big time and they know it.

Simple matter of fact is if phorm/webwise does get past regulations in some bizzare manner prepare for exodus and then people securing there net transmissions even more over secure sessions and blocking EVERY add (not that the net needs more advertising or relevance).

OIX (Open Internet Exchange) as phorm lolably calls it open to who ahh yes those who can afford it, do you think websites who rely on there advertising want it poached or overwritten (might not be at the start but ahh the function creep sets in) where is the list of oix partners? would be great to actually know who is thinking of teaming up with them or have they just got agreements with them to serve ads.
There is and never will be relevance in advertising simple fact and if there is it would be needed by about 0.1% of net users if that, it would all end up as irrelevant as any other advert on the net would it not?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to clarify - when I talked about blocking ads, I was specifically referring to ads on web pages. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Whether Phorm's technology, IF it is ever introduced (and I sincerely hope it isn't) , will be able to get round current blocking techniques remains to be seen. What I was trying to point out, as others have done, is that this campaign is not about blocking ads via Phorm or any other delivery mechanism. It is about preventing ISPs intercepting and analysing personal communications for commercial gain without the consent of both parties to the communication. The fact that that commercial gain would be via the advertising industry is incidental to the debate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If that was how my post read, I apologise. It was not my intention: I have the highest regard for some parts of the media. My point was that if you work in the media/advertising sector, then your attempts to debate the Phorm issue will be suspect in the eyes of many individuals who will assume you are trying to "divide and conquer" opponents to the system.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Correct John we do not want to be intercepted, stalked, read over our shoulder or nannied about the internet. Advertisements are there if you wish to see them I personally don't so take action to stop them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Advertising has never done Loot, local newspapers or Yellow Pages any harm. When I want ads, that is where I look. And eBay too, quite useful for finding people advertising what I am looking for. A choice of physical or virtual ads.

I don't use a search engine to find adverts. I don't visit information pages to find adverts. And I certainly don't expect my ISP to exploit my relationship with them so that they can force adverts to me everywhere.

And I don't invite visitors to my sites so that the competition can know about my relationship with them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes search engines are for finding information not adverts never take adverts from around search engines... I only buy from reputable companies people I know have had dealings with but I will boycot any company that thinks that stalking me to supply adverts is a good idea.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just wanted to bring this post back into clear sight as I suspect it may have got lost amid all the posts last night.

Even with very low security settings, the only cookie the webwise site offers me is a php session cookie. Surfing around the webwise site, it sniffs my ISP and tells me that my ISP has not yet enabled webwise.

Also, if I use the Google cache of the opt-in/out pages, trying to pick up either version of the cookie results in a 403 response from the server. This is the same as I have seen for a few months now.

If there is anyone here who still uses VM, BT or TT (or any of their subsidiaries) can they post whether or not they are also seeing cookies in the a.webwise.net domain?

These cookies are a bit odd because BT have always said that blocking cookies in the www.webwise.net domain will prevent the profiling.

Time for a bit of clarity from Webwise: which domain is used for the UID cookie?

Or, will it be like the 2006/7 trials where every ISP had a unique identifier?

When you think about it, if everyone has the same domain for the cookie, how will the OIX script know which ISP to pay after displaying the ads?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, so I've had no offers to distribute Phorm Flyers on the Tube. I live 2 hours from London, so it would be a right pain for me to do it.

If no one is willing to take this up, then we should concentrate on other ways of getting the word out. Talking amongst ourselves on CableForum will do little to further the campaign unless what we talk about translates into action.

Any concrete ideas, suggestions?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think to distribute on the tube is a great suggestion. I have distributed fliers in my local area. I am surprised nobody has taken you up on it who are local to London.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If I visit webwise.com I get a session cookie for webwise.com and that's all. I checked before visiting to make sure the sites were not blocked for cookies in Firefox. Cookie disappeared once I closed Firefox. I'm a BT customer. Also had a quick tour round the Phorm site, no problem collecting cookies there either.

You sure you aren't running the Dephormation addon and getting a cookie because of that?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What about library's most have terminals these days and all are shared,Ideal place for inphomative flyers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tarquin L-Smythe

Did you get my email?

---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

I have been doing extensive leafleting around my town, including the library.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that's another of the oft asked, never answered questions BT have dodged. Hopefully librarians can arrange some overall block once they get informed. Library content filters can be a bit quirky from what I hear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just to confirm I am also with BT and visiting www.webwise.com only results in a PHP session cookie being set, nothing else at this time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm working on a Wikipedia article for the BT Total Broadband page. If anyone is interested in collaboration, please let me know. I'm particularly interested in someone who is more familiar with Wiki, and who can also provide appropriate hyperlinks etc. to my text.

I've only ever done a few sentences on Wikipedia before, so all help, correction and advice appreciated. Be interesting to see if BT or Phorm remove it all like they did with the first Phorm/Webwise stuff that went up on Widipedia.

Please PM me if you want the text so far and can make suggestions edits - it's a work in progress.
And consider whether you want to stick something similar in to the Virgin Media or Carphone Warehouse/TalkTalk entries.

Over on BT forums, we are seeing more people posting new to the topic. Several of us are busy over on various forums doing ordinary peer support, but with co-ordinated sigs giving links for more information about Webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While BT have stated that no commercial broadband connections will be intercepted, have either TalkTalk or VirginMedia made any similar claim?

It is to be hoped that internet cafes, schools and libraries will be free from any ISP hosted DPI systems. IF they want to use something like BlueCoat, that is up to them.

I have been dropping off leaflets at internet cafes and usually get some raised eyebrows. However, I prefer to talk to people I hand out leaflets to as there are still those who believe that they have 'nothing to hide' or that 'everything is already being spied upon' or that 'nothing we can do to stop it'.

My main concern is that the 'viral effect' is not happening with the petition. Somehow, everyone who signs the petition needs to be sufficiently worked up about it that they involve another 20 people in signing too. We are only 5 people away from having a connection to everyone in the UK. If every one of those 16,000 signatures could tell another 20 people, numbers will be up to 160k very quickly.

Maybe some of the visitors here who are into the advertising media can suggest ways of improving the privacy message?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry my post last night may have been a bit confusing: I actually went out of my way to see if I could get the webwise website to place a Phorm cookie on my system via my Virgin Media cable connection as follows:

I had to navigate through pages of badly-linked stuff on the site, but eventually got to the following page:

http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

where I clicked on the link called "Switch ON Webwise".

This dropped a cookie on my system called uid with the path /services and an expiry date of 4th August 2009.

The content of this particular cookie (which I have since deleted) was ZrUyKoAJTTeD6iXeivlOpA|| which I believe adheres to the format outlined in Richard Clayton's paper (Quote:"Phorm told us that the UID which is allocated to the user is a 16 byte value chosen at random. That is to say it is just a number. It is not, for example, an encryption of some data that might later be decrypted. The actual value sent on the wire will be base-64 encoded, so it will be seen by humans as a 22 character string.")

The website that my browser (Safari) attributed to this cookie was a.webwise.net

All this was done over a Virgin Media cable connection via cpc1-pete8-0-0-custxxx.pete.cable.ntl.com

I hope this clarifies things for those who were worried.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

did not see any ref on the webwise site to interception and profiling have i missed it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think it shows that Phorm have listened to fears about someone being able to opt you into webwise without your knowledge. Just a pity that VM users can be opted in by the script, even when webwise is not 'live'. A problem with the ISP sniffing script?

At the back of my mind, I am reminded that in 2006, the cookies were seeded by scripts used to display adverts in the weeks leading up to the trial. Look at how the BT site is seeding cookies for doubleclick, omniture and 2o7 with no advert in sight.

Maybe another petition is required, this time about the legality of Privacy Statements. The ICO (or someone) has a lot of work to do to get legislation up to speed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have asked on BadPhorm whether anyone would be willing to distribute flyers in London.

Meanwhile, for any new members out there who object to Phorm, don't forget to complain to the Anti-Phishing Workgroup:

Membership: membership@antiphishing.org
Press inquiries: pressrequest@antiphishing.org
Other general questions: info@antiphishing.org

Regarding the ludicrous situation of Phorm being an APWG sponsor:

http://www.antiphishing.org/sponsors.html

Where the Phorm logo is on display next to companies such as F-Secure, which branded Phorm's previous incarnation's software as spyware.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will print some off I am taking my mother to the hospital Tuesday so will try to drop a few there see if people waiting in waiting roosm will read them will also ask the shop if I can leave some near the till for others to pick up.

Maybe contacting such as Tesco Asda extra see if they will allow them to be distributed to customers.

I have already distributed to neighbours on my estate sorry I live too far to distribute flyers round London.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, Flo. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mad

207 is Omniture. Its either a case of Omniture dropping the cookies, or more concering that sites that are affiliated with Omniture are dropping Omniture Cookies. At the last count, I had in excess of 100 cookies resolving to 207, Omniture also Cookies are being dropped using the site name:

a.pcpro.co.uk

Name: DM570308E6NZV6
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I am extremely concerned with this, as third-party cookies blocking are not working with Omniture - suggesting that the sites are dropping the cookies.

Now, I ask if it is the intention of Phorm to use the same method with their affiliates.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Confirmed, when clicking the opt in link I do see a similar cookie for a.webwise.net (i'm with BT). Interestingly, the opt out link just goes to the home page. To confirm that the opt out link wasn't doing anything at all I tried leaving the cookie in place then clicking the opt out link but after being sent to the home page the cookie remained, presumably leaving me opted in.

I also tried visiting a.webwise.net/services/ and got a 404.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=phormwatch;34614022]I have asked on BadPhorm whether anyone would be willing to distribute flyers in London.

It may be worth repeating the request, once a week at the moment.
It's the main holiday period & many have other family commitments at the moment.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=SelfProtection;34614036]Also, as I keep hinting at - College Unions are a great place to canvas support. Students are great at getting their messages across, so why not canvas different Colleges around the UK - each of us armed with maybe 500-1000 flyers, and the support will flood in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Response from Virgin Media regarding email telling them I was posting letter (Data Protection Act) and my disgust at any implementation of Phorm or anything like it

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 August 2008 concerning Virgin Media using PHORM.

I am sorry that you feel this way. Phorm Is there to safegaurd our customers not to transfer information about our users. Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise helps to secure our customers' privacy.

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will match a topic they're are more interested in.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

Virgin Media strives to provide excellent service to all its loyal customers. I am sorry for any inconvenience. If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue, please use the link provided below: