Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And, in the letter BT sent to R Jones, where they comment about RIPA compliance, BT clearly say that "If an interception is required to give effect to a customer's (or website owner's) decision not to participate, we do not consider that a consent is required."

Tie that in with the diagram at http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/customer_choice.html and there is no doubt at all that everything is intercepted by the DPI system (level 7 switch) - "all HTTP traffic" goes through the cookie redirect circus.

I keep hoping that the diagram will be updated for the cookie-less version. If they are not storing the UID in a user cookie, where are they storing it? - somewhere in the green, blue or orange zones?

Also note, there is no path for data FROM the internet into the system, yet BT legal clearly say that data on that path is being intercepted by the system.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a copy of the diagram Madslug refers to - this will save anyone from having to visit the Webwise site.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A good find.

My understanding is that that amendment ensured that there were no copyright infringement claims against the network for the caches made during the transmission of data. If BT are claiming this as their defence, does it mean that they are replacing the cache they used for earlier delivery systems [a layer 2 or 3 switch?] with the Layer 7 switch?

A conflict of interest?

(For the non techies. The cache is a copy of data packets between host server and the user browser and is necessary for efficient delivery of web content. As not the whole content of a site can be sent within one packet, copies of the packets are made by the system so that if there is corruption / dropping of one of the packets, that packet can be resent rather than having to re-request everything from the host server. You will see the effect of the delivery of different packets in the way in which your browser will sometimes redraw the screen as content and images are downloaded.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suppose as the diagram is already on the internet we can infer BT's consent to copying it - maybe even modifying it, or selling altered copies to another ISP? Or using it as the starting point for a money making scheme?

And of course we have yet to see (and won't be seeing for a long time yet) any diagrams of the cookie-free "not-opting-in" system they have been touting. Nor any clear verbal indication of what it will look like.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does that mean that if you don't have a webwise cookie - perhaps you're using a different laptop, have cleared cookies, or for any other reason - you'll be constantly spammed by invitations to join 'webwise'?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the explanation of TOR.

Because this is way above my head do any of you who responded to my question mind if I cut and paste the relevant parts and and post them on the other message board?

I'll make sure I don't claim credit for it and won't put any usernames there either. I'll wait a couple of days to give you a chance to object, I read all the posts here so I'll spot it if anyone doesn't want me to do it.

If nothing else it keeps the thread I opened a couple of months ago on BT/Phorm appearing on the front page of the board.

I have posted a link to this thread too but I imagine it's a bit too much to expect someone to read right through 800+ pages!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Keep going boys and girls, you are winning, the message is slowly getting out there. There is now sufficient opposition that if BT ever start the trial, its going to be so high-profile across the entire news media and every web forum, that no one will want to sign up.

The man is the street will rise up and join the cause, and the few hundred here will turn into tens of thousands, but this won't happen until the battle starts, and people see the need to fight.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We must be getting near another post giving main points and links to important posts.

It is a massive thread and does at times get diluted with distractions but it is all in the discussion..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is what I believe will happen, yes...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, Nebuad article -

"Has NebuAd Ruined Behavioral Targeting?"

From here -

http://www.adotas.com/2008/07/has-ne...ral-targeting/

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The diagram - the only one available - illustrates the system that uses cookies for opting-in out. BT have since stated that they are working on a non-cookie based method for the full roll-out - no mention of how they'll operate the trial.

It's worth pointing out that BT and Phorm appear to have been muddying the waters ever since this thing came to light so no-one is entirely sure of how the system actually works. They even invented a whole new language using terms such as "mirrored" and "profiled" and "data digest" but refused to explain what they actually mean when we asked on the BT forum.

BT are now refusing point blank to even reply to emails, letters or phone calls regarding Webwise from many people and the few responses that we do see are shallow and often directly offensive.

The bottom line is that BT have become such a bunch of lying **** that anything they say is no longer to be trusted and everything should be taken as false until proven otherwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I liked this quote from the above

"In a recent survey of online consumers conducted by Burst Media, only 2 out of every 10 respondents approved of having their information tracked, even if it meant more relevant advertising."

It is so weird that these surveys constantly seem to miss the huge demographic sample of tracking enthusiasts who want more relevant advertising, that BT surveyed. ;-)

Come on BT - publish "Premium Browsing:Research Findings" and put us all out of our misery.
It's got to be valuable - it will have a rarity value something akin to the Penny Black.

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------

No one except BT can say. And they won't say. They remain significantly, embarrassingly, incompetently, disgracefully, culpably, deliberately knowingly silent on the issue.

It's what they DON'T say that gives the game away.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There should be a 'blacklist' on an IP address for some time (half hour?) so that you don't see the invitation before every page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That blacklist was another bit of the system that Dr Clayton effectively demolished with his technical analysis. It fails to account for the effect on different computers sharing the same IP address, and for the SAME computer using different ISP's during that "half hour".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and don't forget that if you use certain web browsers (safari is one) then the Phorm system in it's current form won't work and they don't even try to invite you/drop a cookie on your system - the layer 7 kit just automatically routes you straight to where you wanted to go in the first place.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

However we try to analyse this system and figure out how it will be implemented we come up against one major obstacle - it doesn't actually work. If it did BT would already be using it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You could say it's the same problem as 121Media aka Phorm had with their notorious rootkit, once it was discovered others worked out how to combat or nullify it!

Without a cookie how can individual surfers be identified for a single session or otherwise, without the Webwise System using PII Info?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

can they use ip ranges for those mugs who opt in ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Routers only present as One IP address to the ISP for multi-accounts, unless a way is found to identify an individual (even if so called anonymized) this would not be a target advertisement System?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

apparently you can :angel:
#92 ,its OC a derivative work and using other peoples prior work /property, but perhaps BT don't care about paying for these licenses if it makes them some cash.;) they being just your average commercial pirate for profit after all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As it stands, Safari is compatible with Phorm's cookie forging via redirects, but wasn't supported because phorm's adverts use third party cookies, which it blocks.

If only someone could convince Safari's developers to treat cookies set after a redirect to another domain as third party cookies as is done by Opera, and convince Opera's developers to block third party cookies by default as is done by Safari, then both browsers would be incompatible with Phorm's system. Although I for one still would not be happy with my browsing going through Phorm's DPI kit, whether they claim to process it or not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't mind, but the post following mine is more correct.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have any webmasters here contacted Phorm as potential customers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here is an update of the text version of the Phorm Flyer. Please use this one instead:

http://pastebin.com/f54cc5603

...For posting on relevant Forums, Newsgroups, Mailing Lists, etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap::clap::clap:

And instead of paying BT for broadband... we will make money off BT :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A nice quote regarding targetted advertising...

"This stuff doesn't work. Amazon is still showing me things they think I will like based on my Christmas purchases and one-shot wedding gifts."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, it's after midnight. No appearance of a Webwise Phorm BT partership actually doing anything. Sweet dreams :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Entity-Relationship diagram update:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7875/phormumlsu8.jpg

Please check for correctness and suggest updates.

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

BT/Webwise Topic on Save As... forum started yesterday.

http://www.filesaveas.co.uk/cgi-bin/...1217334228/1#1

Feel free to join in...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

there is always one smart alec that can prove people wrong :)

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Since I enabled browser logging and started looking at browser requests and server responses in those logs, I find that some tracking scripts are setting cookies even though they are what I would think of as 3rd party scripts / cookies. For example, scripts called from tracker.domain.tld are setting cookies in the domain domain.tracker.tld. Some even go so far as to set cookies for domain.tracker2.tld.
(Most cookies are set when images are called so surfing without images greatly reduces the risk of cookies, even when javascript is enabled.
Visit bt.com home page.
Without images, bt.com only sets cookies in the domain .bt.com.
With images enabled, the home page sets cookies in the domains:- .doubleclick.net, .2o7.net, btow.touchclarity.com, .bt.com.
Virginmedia.com home page has fewer cookies:- .virginmedia.com and .advertising.com plus without images the travelsupermarket.com cookie not declaring a domain, and no javascript option giving me a cookie in the domain .atdmt.com
Settings included no images from foreign servers and no javascript from foreign servers.)

If this is what ordinary 'trusted' websites are doing with their 3rd party analytics / tracking / profiling scripts which start off calling a first party script hosted on their server, how much more can a DPI system do? There is nothing in the DPI process that will decrease the number of 3rd party trackers and profilers that have your surfing data, it just adds one known layer of profiling and hides multiple other potential layers.

---------- Post added at 01:26 ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 ----------

Does anybody know when the BT servers are 'rebooted'. I would expect it to be somewhere between 2 am and 4 am.
Even if they are only sending out 10k invites on the 24 hour notice, most mail systems will fall over if more than 50 emails are sent out per batch so it will take a few hours to send out all those advance warning messages.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi all,

A small update, Emma at BT no longer loves me.

After 2 nice messages which just repeat that BT have taken le le gal advice, and the system does not breach copyright.

I informed her that the advice I had been given was the opposite.

I have been advised today that a quick and easy solution once Webwise /Phorm is put into trial.

Issue an invoice for damages regarding copyright breach.

BT will not pay, at this point.

Re-issue the invoice giving a reasonable amount of time for payment, inform them, that non-payment will result in county court action.

BT will not pay.

Issue a summons for payment in the small claims court.

When BT are asked to enter a defence, they will more then likely pay up.

IF BT enter a defence the legal advice we hear so much about, but do not see would more then likely be asked for by the Judge.

Emma most kindly asked me my website details so it could be excluded, however I see a few £££ signs which would keep me in beer for many a long year, so I declined. Unfortunatly she will not write back to me.

Something I said maybe.?;)

The best advice I have been given, is as web masters, we have strong legal rights.

One tactic could be that even before any future tests are done, we can cost BT a lot of money and resources just by asking lots and lots of questions, and if possible attempt to tie up the legal department.

So Lots of questions, need asking, and lack of answers may strengthen a case at the small claims court in the future.

---------- Post added at 03:01 ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 ----------

Hi

I should have said, the above advice was given to me over the phone by the solicitor I contacted last week regarding this matter through my union membership.

It is a summery of a conversation and I made rubbish notes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For those who have not yet noticed, members from badphorm are debating with a Marketing Agency Employee - whose Company, iCrossing, are considering using Phorm. It should be noted that the Company in question are subject to the same sort of debate internally, and appear to be open to the debate.

They are meeting with Phorm to discuss the matter, and you may wish to pose a few questions for the them to put to Phorm:

http://www.daxthink.com/2008/07/well...-evil-and.html

badphorm Link:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...pic.php?7708.0

Please ensure that your comments are constructive, and can be presented to Phorm. Additionally, note the update on the blog.

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Send customers emails? That isn't BT's style. If the information is stuff customers NEED then BT don't bother with an email, they just use a press release and put something on an obscure webpage.
We only get emails for the latest offers in BT shop!

Good grief madslug - you'll be expecting them to tell support staff next. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Certainly, please do.

Key advice is this;
You could also include these quotes;
“The message has to be this: if you care about your privacy, do not use BT, Virgin or Talk-Talk as your internet provider”
- Professor Ross Anderson, Cambridge University, UK (source)

"I would want to use an ISP that doesn't [monitor which websites I go to]. I personally want to feel free."
- Sir Tim Berners Lee, Inventor of the World Wide Web, Director of the World Wide Web Consortium (source)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I really dislike this diagram. It seems to be trying to represent data flow and control flow at the same time. I find it very uninformative. Of course its purpose isn't to inform me, it is a PR tool.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just posted this on BT Beta forums and thought I had best share it with you guys..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not for me with third party cookies blocked in Opera or firefox 3.

With third party cookies blocked - IE, Safari and firefox allow cookies to be accessed after a redirect to a third party site (which Phorm relies on to access its webwise.net cookies).

IE 7 also leaks third party cookies using other methods with third party cookies blocked.

There's a "cookie forensics" test here, unfortunately it doesn't test if cookies can be set after a redirect to a third party domain - which Opera would pass, but IE, Safari and Firefox 3 would fail :(

http://www.grc.com/cookies/cookies.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm disappointed no one has decided to join in:

>BT/Webwise Topic on Save As... forum started yesterday.

>http://www.filesaveas.co.uk/cgi-bin/...1217334228/1#1

IMO, we need to concentrate more on getting the message out to the public.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try this http://www.filesaveas.co.uk/cgi-bin/...num=1217334228

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, that one works

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't be! I've put up a link to my Welcome post.
I'm beginning to see more new names on BT Beta. This thing is growing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The link to filesaveas isn't working for me - getting 404 Not Found errors.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My original letter to BT Retail legal counsel here http://tinyurl.com/6yzh5b

And at long last - a text-based pdf of their reply that you can copy and paste from - the earlier ones were image based.

http://tinyurl.com/632hyt

BT have given permission to publish, so quote away to your hearts content. As they have permitted it to go on the internet I imagine we can sell it, analyse it, profile it for advertisers, make souvenir copies and sell them at a profit, use the logo and write our own phorged letters purporting to be from Greg Hughes, and generally exploit it for commercial gain - after all it's on the internet so it's anyone's!
(Well - according to BT's version of coyright law anyway.)

Watching BT watching us (or rather trying desperately to work out how to watch us without getting banged up for it).
Waiting for the trials....

The trial due to arrive "soon" at an ISP near you is the long delayed March 2008 BT Webwise trial, destined for the entire internet, now running five months late. We apologise for the late arrival of this trial, which is due to legal and technical difficulties we just couldn't be bothered to research properly.
Please enable cookies, and stand away from the edge of the computer. This trial will not be stopping to ask your permission. All carriages are equipped with the latest deep packet inspection equipment. We wish you a rewarding and Webwise-enhanced premium browsing experience.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you what enhance premium browsing more like a big down grade and backwards before A.B (adblockers):)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am still waiting for Emma to tell me how I can audit that my site has not been phormed. No point just taking it on trust when the logs [should show calls to robots.txt either way for each page visit] show visits from phormed and non-phormed the same.

I have also asked for a diagram showing how the blacklisted sites are excluded - but the reply from BT legal seem to indicate that 100% of visits get intercepted for both legs of the data stream.

So many unknowns.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies!

Try this:

http://www.filesaveas.co.uk/cgi-bin/...num=1217334228

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's better - thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Trial must be on t'way - share price just zoomed (referring to share price ONLY as an indicator that the trial must be imminent :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just tried visiting the BT forum and got this message....

Best keep an eye on it when it reopens to make sure that it's still wholesome with nothing added and nothing taken away.

Thank you for visiting.

Due to essential maintenance work this section of the site is not currently available.

We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Please contact either your sales or service team with any further questions.

The numbers below may be of assistance while this section of the site is down.
UK Directory Enquiries 118 500
International Directory Enquiries 118 505

Please note the remainder of the site is still available.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All BT beta forums are down currently.
Products and services is down.
BTVison site is down.

In fact a LOT of BT's network just fell over.

Oh dear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The only news today on the BTPLC website is...

Jul 30, 2008 - ITU selects BT's Dave Faulkner to chair new climate change group
BT’s Dr Dave Faulkner has been selected by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) to chair a new Focus Group examining the impact of information and communication technology (ICT) on climate change.

Incidently, the "zoom" is all the way up to below last weeks values.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:46 ----------

They didn't just find another one of those Russian progams did they?

10> разрушьте упадочнические западные компьютерные системы
20> пойдите до 10

---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

It's all working again now. Apparently they found this hamster chewing on some wires...

http://www.pinkertonfx.com/zombie_hamsters5.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hear that ISPs cannot book appointments either that fell over wonder if Bt are trying to fit the phorm servers in and breaking their own network in the process that would be poetic justice..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jut tried the BT forum - it's very slow to access and it takes several minutes to add a new post.

In other words it's back to normal ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The sooner they get Phorm revenues the sooner they'll be able to invest in some more shiny servers :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and stuff I have bought and shipped for friends and family because it is cheaper over here. I really don't need any more Bratz dolls thank you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what ad`s never see any only blank place holders :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Once the extra redirects come in with phorm/webwise it will get slower.

BT's network boumces cistomers about too many times in the soame IP ranges tracerts from other ISPs that have their own centrals do not have all these redirects inside the same IP range.

Each hop slows the connection more.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

doing a tr to bt.com i get to 14 and it times out after that all the way to 30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You'll see over on Bad Phorm I've had more letters from regulators, either refusing to answer questions, or buck passing.

I can't emphasise enough how important it is to move ISP, because you effectively have no one (currently) who is willing to uphold your right to data communication privacy. Let alone the rights of 160,000+ people involved in earlier trials.

If you have a rogue communication service provider, who sells your communication data, to a bunch of Russian alleged purveyors of spyware, you have literally no protection.

There are profound implications for people who find themselves included in Phorm trials (voluntarily or involuntarily)... If you find your communication data has been shared with Phorm, without your consent, no regulator will take action against BT (or Virgin or TalkTalk). The only protection you have is in your own hands (and that means choosing a new communication service provider you can trust, and using encryption whenever possible to do so).

On a more positive note, I received a document from BERR which will please the web masters amongst you... As I said in earlier posts, the one piece of legislation which is out of the hands of incompetent or corrupt regulators is copyright. And BERR agree;

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/1.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This whole Phorm/BT episode has been a brutal illustration of the way law and government works for the rich and powerful and not in the interests of citizens.

It's a complete joke, and I will laugh in the face of the next politician who talks about a crisis in confidence in UK Parliamentary democracy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This one needs to be framed.

I wonder if my MP will eventually reply to my last letter with a BERR copy along the same lines.


BTW - does anyone know if you can do a 'class action' as part of a small claims application? Imagine the judge walking into the court and discovering it is filled with webmasters all claiming less than 5k for royalty infringements against the same ISP - and then the same webmasters coming back the next week, claiming for their next invoice.

----

For those webmasters who are wondering how to claim for royalty infringements:

The first thing you need is a host that gives you access to your raw logs. From there it is a simple matter to analyse who has visited from a phormed ISP. Over at badphorm there are a couple of threads:
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?5598
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?5600
plus the scripts on dephormation site

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you really expect a labour gov to give a dam about our rights of freedom, free speach and free will, their colours are red and for a reason, never mine the icon on it thats just to make it look good.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No I don't, but I don't that's not because it's 'Labour', but because it's the government in a world where Capitalism rules. A Conservative government would not be any better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Climate change group? Are they expecting severe storms?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm storms, of course. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's good to get that, but it does unfortunately show just how they are allowing this public company to take the urine out of the law of this land and ignore the rights of individuals.

"We'll leave it to them to sort out, since we agreed to let them intercept the communication of thousands of people without any legal warrant, we'll forgive that and suggest support for action in the future to shut them up - at least that way it will all die down, especially since there's so much difficulty in getting the final product to launch... phew, it's let us off the hook in Whitehall!!"

Grrr. I've never felt quite so negative about our politicians, the establishment etc. I was a staunch Royalist, pro-parliament young man and this is making me very bitter about OUR public servants who WE pay the salaries of. Damn not acceptable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

could they be expecting a flood of money been washing away from them to some other place:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So what ever happened to David Davies? Has anyone managed to contact him - or has he been assassinated by the government?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Badly designed login register page. It forgets all you entered into the fields if you have to click "Back" or your back botton on your browser because the user name selected is already in use. 3rd attempt I gave up! However don't let that put anyone off at least one go (link above checked and it works ok)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

15,974

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm's digital PR agency at work again:

http://deandonaldson.wordpress.com/2...-in-a-tea-cup/

i.e. Yet another pro-Phorm marketing blog.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

posted links on filesaveas revrob and myself have posted there before hopefully there are interested parties needing to be inphormed;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey Tarquin - informative web page, but the text is kind of hard to read. I left a link to a copy of the shades image with every other line removed. Tell me what you think...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

check tinyurl in my sig same in notepad form
;)

Thanks for the edit phormwatch its a work in progress

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

15,977

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Think I might pick some o' this apart:

We're aware of this. It's an intrusion we accept out of necessity. Making it even MORE intrusive by spying on us to provide it however, is entirely unnecessary


Except that I don't. I don't wear branded clothes nor do I tattoo myself with logos, nor do I buy magazines that tell me what I should buy.


Yes. And since i'm paying for the system that sends me this content, I'm not expecting to be intruded on MORE given that I already accept the advertising currently present on websites to fund the content.


Yes. And I don't mind the police or GCHQ or other governmental agencies being able to access logs of what I've done for reasons of national security. But when it's being done for purely commercial reasons, I have an issue with it.


Apart from a unique user ID number.


Utter poppycock, and absolutely nothing to do with how Phorm works.


Not the worst-case scenario. Let's not forget the stated fears of (I think it was) Mr Berners-Lee, who was worried that browsing for information about cancer would jack up life insurance premiums. Not an issue with the way that Phorm says they do business - but they way they say they work and the way they actually do work don't always match up

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does the writer know something about the cookie-less new phorm that has not yet been disclosed?Is he really saying that the UID has been dropped and that as you surf you will be rated as no more than an ABC1, etc.

And, what is this technology which is similar to that used by the police? Last time I looked, the police needed a court order to do that kind of snooping. Who has given Phorm the court order which allows them to do the same snooping?

Sorry, I don't agree that that blog is pro-phorm. Shooting it in the back more like Well, Phorm may be happy to be stealing it (they certainly are not offering any payment nor advertising by way of trading compensation) as part of its media consumption. Phorm just must not complain when the people they are stealing it from start to defend their property.

I am also not so sure that I agree with his view on branding either. I was very young when I first became aware of branding, probably a college student, and I thought that people were getting the clothes cheaper because they were helping to advertise them (who would pay to wear an advert?) - you can imagine my reaction when I found out that people were being conned into paying more for the privilege of doing all that free advertising for some company that they did not even work for. My view of brands has changed little in the years since: I gave up on 'uniforms' when I left school.
Anyone noticed how the exec range of cars has stopped carrying so many badges? Anyone noticing the difference in food cost inflation between the 'own brand' and branded ranges?

Talking of brands. The last few days I have started to see VirginMedia's new promo: The Mother of all Broadbands. Whoever their ad agency is has a very strange sense of humour, or is a very different generation. [It wouldn't be the same agency who came up with the 2012 logo, would it?]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I remember the MOAB, and I certainly don't remember it being a good thing :P



Ah, I forgot to mention that part while I was picking that post apart.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to add to the conclusion from the blog Ethical considerations? DoubleClick has been banned from my computer and browser since I first heard about them. May Phorm remain banned too, for the same reasons plus the dozens of new reasons.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Pete said this on Your comment is awaiting moderation. July 30, 2008 at 9:53 pm".

Wonder if it gets 'moderated' :scratch:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Brains said this on Your comment is awaiting moderation. July 30, 2008 at 11:01 pm

I wonder indeed http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/rolleyes.gif

Says it all really.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To see just how much Dean Donaldson takes ethics into consideration, consider his other blog posts, namely this one:

http://deandonaldson.wordpress.com/w...click-anymore/

---------- Post added at 01:54 ---------- Previous post was at 00:30 ----------

A list of organisations we could contact regarding Phorm...

EPIC Online Guide to Privacy Resources:

http://epic.org/privacy/privacy_resources_faq.html

This one:

http://www.cyber-rights.org/

Looks especially promising. There are also lists of relevant newsgroups, mailing lists, printed publications, conferences and events.

Let's get writing, people! :)

---------- Post added at 01:57 ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 ----------

Meanwhile... does anyone on here live in London?

It would be nice if we could print out a thousand of those flyers (the PDF versions) and put them on Tube carriages in the morning or before evening rush hour. People are bored as hell on the Tube and are always looking for something to read.

I would be willing to cover the costs for the printing if someone wants to contact me about this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget the buses.

Just thinking that the same is probably true for anyone who lives at the edge of the commuter belt. Lots of people traveling to London from Southend, Bristol, Brighton, Norwich, Luton ....

It is just as easy to catch people on any High Street during the lunch hour: catch them after they have bought their sandwich so that they have something to look at while they eat. Hopefully they will share with everyone else when they are back in the office - doing their private surfing during the lunch break so easy to sign the petition.

Another potential source of interested readers is parents of teenages - they are just becoming aware of blyk spreading amongst their kids and they don't like 14 year-olds being offered all those adverts in exchange for free texts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i uploaded that here a long time ago so people didnt need to go offsite to see it as you linked,
10-04-2008, 02:49 #2807

or, for the direct url
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at..._diagram70.gif

it's far more informative that you give it credit for.

as the official released BT PR diagram, it shows cristal clear, to any court you might show it in,

that no matter what BT have said, all YOUR DATA is still passing through the layer7 DPI wiretapping kit after you opt-out.

it also shows and confirmed that they openly admit to unlawfully placing unauthorised cookies/data on your termal equipment (PC) when YOU refuse to give them permission to do so after you refuse to opt-in to webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reading this in the register today and it really has you thinking is this really the path our government wants us to head.
The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has admitted cutting a deal with the Chinese to allow the blocking of press access to some sensitive websites during the forthcoming Beijing games - despite previous assurances there would be no such censorship.

It wouold seem that they are heading that way with the allowing of Phorm as even if they don't authorise this type of use on the internet how can they be 100% sure that Phorm doesn't start to do this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Waking up to find I have ruffled a few more feathers this morning...

Good, that was my intention. hello peoples. This is Dean Donaldson. Note I deliberately did not state my personal aspect on all this, I was merely posing a viewpoint to the counter-measure .

Advertsing works. Cookies are a part of the web - and you leave footprints. Whether we like it, agree with it or not - it is now here. 10% of ALL company revenue is spent on advertisng, and has been for last 90 years - whether on posters, TV ads, or sales men - because it works. Anyone think thet are immune to advertising must live on another planet, (and a quick check through your cupboards and wardrobes and garage will prove it!) but if you don't realise that you are being 'persuaded' then all credit to the 'persuaders', because that is their job.

How did you find my blog? Some "automated" system that enabled you to find content - that did not exist a few years ago. So you obviously appreciate technology advances to have your voice. So are we to herald all technology as inherently evil? Is it the medium or the message? Questions that have long been posed around - or you going to say 'rock music is evil, TV is evil' and go live in a Hamish community?

So my point is that advertsing and technology ARE part of the debate - and how both are combined and used is a given. You are not going to win this one by saying advertsing doesn't work and we don't want progress - there has to be a smarter and more navigatable solution.

---------- Post added at 08:53 ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 ----------

@PhormWatch: Think you would do better to read this one.
http://deandonaldson.wordpress.com/2...ing-in-the-uk/

You may get a MUCH bigger picture of what is coming...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to Cableforum.
I will read your blog later today as this morning I am out most of the morning so haven't the time to give it a good read.

I am one who blocks adverts unless I am looking for something then I research it online I hate what I call force fed adverts relivent or irrelevent. With the added spice of putting a known spyware/malware person in charge of what is easy to descripe as a ISP network rootkit would make me want to move ISP to another with similar views as mine over this regardless of cost to me which I have already done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch, welcome to the debate.

One point that I think the advertisers are overlooking is that, yes, people do want more relevant ads, it is just that the system Phorm are proposing does not sit well with the human psyche. If I was to follow you around a shopping mall, just inside your peripheral vision, taking notes about everything you looked at and picked up, it wouldn't take long for you to become uneasy about it and wonder exactly what I was inferring from my notes and who I was going to give this info to.

Personally, I do recognise that advertising is a necessity and I get hacked off seeing a screenful of ads that mean nothing to me. Here's the thing though, I would happily TELL advertisers what ads I want served to my browser. All they have to do is ASK and leave me in control.

Control is the important factor to me. I've said this before...If a web ad agency can set up some system that gives me ads I'm interested in, I'll probably use it. It has to be on my terms though. Let me register with them, have my own personal preferences page where I tell them as much or as little as I'm comfortable with so they can match these against their current campaigns to send me ads on their partner sites. As my interests change, I'll change my preferences myself and see the effects immediately in the ads I'm served with. There's no need to track me. I'll tell you what ads I want. How much more targetted do you want?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, Dean. Good to see you're willing to come here and discuss this with us.

I'd just like to say that I'm really very rarely affected by advertising, because I don't actually expose myself to any. Adblock deals with all the ads on the internet, I don't read many magazines (and the only one I read would be new scientist, which has adverts for various technological things which I really don't need in my room right now - maybe when I'm a mad scientist, yes, but not right now). And yes, let's look at my wardrobe. Trousers I bought after trawling through a number of shops looking for the plainest black trousers I could find. The shirts I own are all band shirts for bands that don't even play in this country very often, and have never advertised in this country, or my university society. My shoes? Military surplus.
The things that I have bought myself were things I went out looking for, and compared the benefits of the various things myself.


This isn't what we're protesting. We're against a specific technological advance, not technology as a whole. I think everybody here would be happy with faster broadband, or bigger monitors, better processors etc., but that doesn't mean that we're not allowed to be distinctly worried about one specific piece of technology, especially one that opens up as much of a can of worms as this one does. This part of your stance is, as I've already described your habit of going on about separating people into brackets related to age and interest, has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

on this whole technology thing I'd love to know how many people who own PVR's (Sky+, V+ etc) do NOT fast forward through adverts in programmes they have recorded.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm is not progress,it is far too intrusive, it is a retrograde step back towards spyware.

Advertising works if people see it, when advertising on the web starts to annoy people they will block it.


What's so very different about phone calls and messenger chats, many people will anonymously discuss very private issues in a public forum that they wouldn't discuss with their friends or family.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's a great question, and I know that I certainly would fast forward through all advertising if I were given the chance.

However, a protracted debate on this specific subject (whilst I can see the merit in it as a discussion, and would certainly encourage it as a topic of debate elsewhere on CF) wouldn't actually be relevant to the issue of Phorm/WebWise and their implementation, or to the debate for/against it ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Feesch welcome.
We are not luddites and loombreakers we are called geeks by some because of our love of the technology ,This debate is mainly about choice and the way one ISP in particular has ignored peoples privacy and it was not until there underhandedness was made public that the issues arose.IT (acym Information tech) is a typical way that function creep has now led it to be akin to AT(advertising Tech).When you steal peoples right to choose then you must accept the consequences not sit in the corner sulking and spreading untruths,like a spoilt brat(KE).

Tarquin G Loombreaker-Smythe.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm is more akin to being stalked than persuaded.
Great advertising understands the underlying needs of customers. It doesn't need to stalk people to persuade them.
In nearly 1000 posts I don't think I've read one that says advertising doesn't work.

However, for an economy to work properly, you require private, secure, and trustworthy communication services.

If you deny those principles, a society will reinstate them for themselves, for example by encrypting data, and communicating & trading in secret. It has profound implications for Government; how do you detect criminal misconduct in such a situation?

There have to be limits on marketing, else why not break down my front door, take an inventory of my living room, and decide whether I need a new TV and sofa.

Communication interception by private companies for targeted advertising is obscene, and crosses the line for me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the majority of people opposed to Phorm's intrusive technology are somehow anti-technology luddites, and believe the advertising doesn't work.

Either you genuinely misunderstand our arguments or you are being disingenuous.

To re-enforce what's already been said, we are not anti-technologists or luddites. In fact, many of us are 'geeks'. We love IT and technology. Many of us work in IT or technology related fields and hold degrees in IT or technology.

Secondly, we did not say that advertising doesn't work (though many of us, myself included, studiously avoid advertising whenever possible). What we are opposed to is the method of advertising delivery used by Phorm. The technology is intrusive and almost certainly illegal.

Finally, you claim to be concerned about the ethical side of marketing. What do you think of BTs covert trials using Phorm's technology in 2006 and 2007, and BTs subsequent lies about it? Do you think the 'product' which 121Media produced called 'PeopleOnPage' was ethical? If so, do you disagree with the decision of anti-virus companies to label it 'Spyware'? Finally, do you think it was appropriate/ethical for Kent/Phorm to organise a 'Town Hall Meeting' with technologists and the press in order to have an 'open debate' about Phorm, claim that the whole event will be filmed and released on the web shortly afterwards, and then subsequently refuse to release the video when the meeting put Phorm in a bad light?

I'm genuinely interested in your responses to these questions. Do you talk to Kent often? Have you discussed these things?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome Feesch. Good to read your post.

My objection to Phorm/Webwise is not an objection to tracking per se. It is an objection to the technology being used to carry out the tracking, and the technology being used to present the targetted ads. I am fully aware that I am tracked on the internet, on the road, by my mobile, when I shop with my store card, and perhaps also even when I walk round the supermarket should certain wireless technology be widely adopted in packaging. I am not naive.

It is an objection to the use of DPI and Layer 7 for commercial purposes such as behavioural targetted advertising, involving the monitoring of my entire data stream when on the internet.

It is an objection to companies with dubious ethical histories being given access to the entire data stream of a massive ISP, including my data stream without my informed consent.

It is an objection to my ISP conducting illegal covert trials without my consent and being untruthful about it.

Adverts, and targetted adverts, are a related but different issue. I already am able to make an individual choice regarding what adverts I choose to see while browsing.
I am already able to make an individual choice as to whether I allow all cookies, individual cookies, and third party cookies.
I am already able to block any domain I wish from either setting cookies or by adding it to my hosts file.
I don't object to adverts, I just actually watch,see,read very very few of them - on any medium.

In all the other areas I am aware of, where behavioural targetting occurs I am able to make an informed choice - (store cards, Nectar cards and such like). With Phorm/Webwise DPI my choice is negated, and all my data stream is intercepted whether I like it or not.

My ISP is giving me NO choice about this technology being inserted between me and the internet. My data stream will pass through this technology whether I am opted out or in of Webwise. Their own diagrams make this clear, and I'm afraid I don't trust them with that amount of access to my data stream. I have good cause to mistrust them.

I also object as a webmaster (of charity sites), to this technology intercepting and exploiting the data stream between my site and my site visitors.

I also object to this technology forging cookies from my sites that purport to come from my site, and doing so in contravention of my site privacy policy, my legal rights, and my publicly viewable site terms and conditions.

I also object to this technology "assuming" that if I allow google web crawling bots access to my site, that I also want the Webwise technology to intercept my datastream, forge cookies, copy my site content and exploit the unique personal data exchange I have with my site visitors for THEIR commercial gain with no payment to me.

I have been unable to get any satisfactory answers from my ISP or Phorm to the above points. They have supplied answers, but they are fudges, and ignore all the key issues I have raised above. They are deceptive answers.

I am not prepared to be diverted into a discussion about the trends in advertising, until my own reasonable questions have been answered. My ISP and their lawyers seem unable to answer the questions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Feesch has a very nicely written blog but it is irrelevent to this discussion.

We are discussing whether or not it is acceptable and legal for any company or organisation to intercept our web-traffic and process that data in order to profile us for any reason without a warrant being issued based on a specific requirement pertaining to the individual.

The fact that one potential use for such systems is to deliver targetted advertising is only relevent because that is Phorm's stated purpose but the financial benefit to ISPs, advertising companies and High St brands is neither here nor there especially since the ISPs - the only group that we are contractually involved with - have not made any claims or statements regarding the use of any income derived from this system.

Feesch's case boils down to a single statement - DPI should be used because it can make a lot of money for a few people involved in sales.

Don't let these people draw attention away from the core issue - our right as law-abiding citizens to chose who has access to our personal information regardless of why they want it or how they plan to use it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Couldn't have said it better myself I still haven't had time to read this blog but snippets are coming to light and I wonder just where the main body of the information generated from.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Dean - a few weeks back I made a post which related to the history of one of the tracking scripts. Even though I linked to a google cache, when people visited the page they had malware download warnings.

The big problem is that for the last 4/5 years, adverts relying on javascripts, etc have been associated with the downloading of malware and rootkits. DPI is seen in the same light as that malware and rootkits.

The risks are the origins of the adblockers, cookie removal/blocking and hosts file restrictions far more than the adverts themselves.

My personal view is that the advertising industry needs to clean up its act and start to use methods which do not expose anyone viewing ads to such risks, not look for methods to increase those risks. And DPI is a method too far. Ad delivery needs to go back to what it was doing before the malware and rootkits got added by the hackers.

Give us adverts backed by a secure system. For current technology that means that a lot of the current ads are not acceptable: no gifs, no flash, no javascript. Spend the development money on a secure delivery system, needs to be developed from scratch.