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Pierre 19-02-2024 22:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170553)
I fail to see the point in centring current Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israeli state around the historic suffering of Jews.
So do I, but I’m not the one on pro-Hamas marches in London and elsewhere with placards stating “Netanyahu = Hitler”


Others are doing that, usually carrying Palestinian flags.

ianch99 19-02-2024 23:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170510)
I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.
You judge wrong

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------

Just to illuminate what is happening in Gaza:

Gaza doctors: ‘We leave patients to scream for hours and hours’

jfman 20-02-2024 07:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36170561)
So do I, but I’m not the one on pro-Hamas marches in London and elsewhere with placards stating “Netanyahu = Hitler”

Others are doing that, usually carrying Palestinian flags.
Seems like fair political comment.

One only has to go back mere hours on any social media platform and you’ll find posts comparing both Biden and Trump to Hitler.

It might be a damning indictment of education in our schools that Hitler is the only comparator when tyrants like General Pinochet or Pol Pot might offer a more qualified condemnation without resorting to comparing everything to the Nazis.

The same is also true of Putin, who routinely gets compared with Hitler when on the basis of the evidence available comparing him with Netanyahu would be the most outrageous slur on the Russian leader.

Even Biden let the mask slip that Netanyahu is an “asshole”, so I don’t see why he should be exempt from Hitler comparisons, much as Israel shouldn’t be exempt from accusations of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide because of the Holocaust.

ianch99 20-02-2024 08:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170579)
Seems like fair political comment
Not really. I heard of no pro-Hamas marches in London. There were pro-Palestine ones where some people who attended may support Hamas but that is clearly not the same thing. Seems like post truth political comment to me.

jfman 20-02-2024 09:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170581)
Not really. I heard of no pro-Hamas marches in London. There were pro-Palestine ones where some people who attended may support Hamas but that is clearly not the same thing. Seems like post truth political comment to me.
I decided to ignore Pierre’s slur on the broadly peaceful demonstrations. History will judge those attendees well by comparison to many of the early posts in this thread.

My post was about those holding up the placards. Many leaders get routinely compared to Hitler on a routine basis.

Sephiroth 20-02-2024 09:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170581)
Not really. I heard of no pro-Hamas marches in London. There were pro-Palestine ones where some people who attended may support Hamas but that is clearly not the same thing. Seems like post truth political comment to me.
Are you blind to the obvious? All of a sudden, it was "Free Palestine". You can be 100% sure that whilst this is indeed a cause, it is also a metaphor for supporting Hamas as the high number of placards indicated.

ianch99 20-02-2024 09:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170587)
I decided to ignore Pierre’s slur on the broadly peaceful demonstrations. History will judge those attendees well by comparison to many of the early posts in this thread.

My post was about those holding up the placards. Many leaders get routinely compared to Hitler on a routine basis.
Fair point ...

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170589)
Are you blind to the obvious? All of a sudden, it was "Free Palestine". You can be 100% sure that whilst this is indeed a cause, it is also a metaphor for supporting Hamas as the high number of placards indicated.
It may be a metaphor in your world view but for most people they are separate and distinct.

Sephiroth 20-02-2024 09:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170590)
Fair point ...

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------



It may be a metaphor in your world view but for most people they are separate and distinct.
Nobody was demonstrating for "Free Palestine" before 07-Oct-23. No sooner had that atrocity happened, when 100,000 then 300,000 people suddenly started marching. Gradually the Hamas support placards were withdrawn in favour of Free Palestine under threat of prosecution.

Most people understand that. And you should be worries; the tail is wagging the dog and unless you open your eyes, we're sleepwalking into disaster.

Pierre 20-02-2024 11:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170581)
Not really. I heard of no pro-Hamas marches in London. There were pro-Palestine ones where some people who attended may support Hamas but that is clearly not the same thing. Seems like post truth political comment to me.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...errorists.html

https://news.met.police.uk/news/thre...protest-479439

https://news.met.police.uk/news/woma...protest-476277

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stice-Day.html

The thing is, if at every march/ protest that I went to, I was surrounded by racists, I'd probably rethink whether I want to be associated with these people.

mrmistoffelees 20-02-2024 11:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36170600)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...errorists.html

https://news.met.police.uk/news/thre...protest-479439

https://news.met.police.uk/news/woma...protest-476277

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...stice-Day.html

The thing is, if at every march/ protest that I went to, I was surrounded by racists, I'd probably rethink whether I want to be associated with these people.
Four people brought to justice out of a total of how many protestors ? If you were at a protest I’m not sure you could class that as surrounded ?

Sephiroth 20-02-2024 11:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36170601)
Four people brought to justice out of a total of how many protestors ? If you were at a protest I’m not sure you could class that as surrounded ?

Under-policed, as you well know. See the Tugendhat mob for details.

mrmistoffelees 20-02-2024 12:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170602)

Under-policed, as you well know. See the Tugendhat mob for details.

So no actual evidence then? Just an assumption of guilt

Pfffttt

ianch99 20-02-2024 12:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36170603)
So no actual evidence then? Just an assumption of guilt

Pfffttt
Yeah, no evidence as usual. "Pfffttt" is a good summary :)

Sephiroth 20-02-2024 12:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36170603)
So no actual evidence then? Just an assumption of guilt

Pfffttt
TV evidence of the racist placards and the shouting.

mrmistoffelees 20-02-2024 14:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170606)
TV evidence of the racist placards and the shouting.
Again pfft you know fine well you can’t extrapolate the tv broadcasts of fifty (if that) people to cover the intent/motive of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people

<removed>

1andrew1 05-03-2024 20:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
More taxpayers' money being wasted by baseless allegations.
Quote:
Michelle Donelan, the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, has today tweeted a full retraction of her false allegations about Professor Kate Sang and agreed to pay an undisclosed sum to her.

In October 2023, Michelle Donelan wrote to the UK Research and Innovation (UKRI) suggesting that newly appointed members of an EDI board, Professor Kate Sang and Dr Kamna Patel, had shared extremist material or, in the case of Professor Sang, had expressed support or sympathy for Hamas in the aftermath of the Gaza attack. She also claimed they had breached the Nolan principles and suggested they should be removed from the Board. Unusually, the Minister posted this letter to her personal X account to very large numbers of people.

In fact, the allegations were false. Professor Sang is not a Hamas supporter or sympathiser. She had tweeted a link to a Guardian article which described the wider aftermath in the UK of the Hamas attack and simply commented ‘this is disturbing’. Dr Patel had not shared extremist material and there had been no breach of the Nolan principles as Ms Donelan had suggested.

Unfortunately, the basis for Michelle Donelan’s false allegations was a seriously misleading press release from the lobby group Policy Exchange which did not include the link to the Guardian article tweeted by Professor Sang, just the headline which referred to a crackdown on Hamas support by Suella Braverman.
https://www.bindmans.com/knowledge-h...ments-on-gaza/

Paul 07-03-2024 03:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Taxpayers money ? How do you work that out ?

1andrew1 07-03-2024 07:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36171546)
Taxpayers money ? How do you work that out ?
The government (ie us taxpayers) paid the compensation not Donelan personally.
https://news.sky.com/story/taxpayers...hamas-13088671

daveeb 07-03-2024 12:28
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36171551)
The government (ie us taxpayers) paid the compensation not Donelan personally.
https://news.sky.com/story/taxpayers...hamas-13088671
It's just more of the same really. Ministers never responsible for their actions and Joe public ends up bailing them out.

Paul 07-03-2024 18:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36171551)
The government (ie us taxpayers) paid the compensation not Donelan personally.
https://news.sky.com/story/taxpayers...hamas-13088671
Well thats just plain wrong, she was personally responsible so should be paying the bill.

Hugh 07-03-2024 21:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...-24/index.html

Quote:
US President Joe Biden is set to announce new steps to establish a port in Gaza for humanitarian aid during his State of the Union address Thursday evening, senior administration officials said.

The port will include a temporary pier, a second senior official said, which “will provide the capacity for hundreds of additional truckloads of assistance each day” to be coordinated with Israel, the United Nations and humanitarian nongovernmental organizations. Initial aid shipments will come via Cyprus, the official said. It was not immediately clear when the port would be up and running.

A senior US administration official said the Israeli government has also "prepared a new land crossing directly into northern Gaza," a development that comes after weeks of increasing US pressure as the humanitarian crisis worsens.

1andrew1 07-03-2024 22:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36171642)
Looks a bit desperate.

I guess Biden doesn't have sufficient numbers in the House to be able to lever Israel's funding and weapon supply to get them to allow more aid into Gaza through conventional routes.

1andrew1 12-03-2024 23:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Messaging seems to be please don't do it, but if you do, no adverse repercussions will occur
Quote:
White House warns Israel against ‘smashing into Rafah’

US sees no ‘credible plan’ to protect civilians in southern Gazan city, says Jake Sullivan

US national security adviser Jake Sullivan has warned the Israeli government against “smashing into Rafah” as the Biden administration underlines its opposition to the planned assault on one of Gaza’s biggest cities.

The US was continuing to urge the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to protect civilians and find a path for a long-term peace, Sullivan said. But an assault on the southern Gaza city was not necessary in the effort to “crush Hamas”, he added.

“[President Joe Biden] believes there is a path to do that, and that path does not lie in smashing into Rafah, where there are 1.3mn people, in the absence of a credible plan to deal with the population there,” Sullivan said on Tuesday. “We have not seen a credible plan to protect those civilians.”

In an interview over the weekend, Biden suggested a military operation in Rafah, the last remaining population centre in southern Gaza unoccupied by Israeli forces, could further strain Washington’s relations with the Jewish state.

But the president has stopped short of saying he would deny military assistance to its ally Israel and the US has not said what repercussions the Netanyahu government would face for ignoring Washington’s warnings on Rafah.

Sullivan also declined to speculate on whether the US would begin placing any conditions on the $3.8bn in annual lethal aid it provides to Israel.
https://www.ft.com/content/7657510b-...3-7808f59ea5e0

1andrew1 21-03-2024 21:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Israel arbitrarily denying entry of aid to Gaza, says Cameron

Foreign secretary’s statement marks escalation of his criticism of the Israeli government amid rising concerns about humanitarian catastrophe in the territory

Israel’s “arbitrary denials” of aid being sent to Gaza is now the “main blocker” to providing humanitarian assistance to the territory, Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton has warned.

In a marked escalation of criticism of the Israeli government, Cameron told the foreign affairs select committee that it was “an enormous frustration” that aid had been “routinely held up waiting for Israeli permissions”.

The foreign secretary also contradicted claims by the Israeli government spokesman, Eylon Levy, that the Kerem Shalom crossing in the southern Gaza Strip had been closed on Saturdays at the request of the UN.

Cameron said: “I can confirm that the UN has not requested that the Kerem Shalom crossing is closed on Saturdays. It is our understanding that Israel closes it due to the Sabbath.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i...eron-9kpj2250l

jfman 22-03-2024 10:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
How the mighty have fallen. America finally calls for an immediate ceasefire as hundreds of thousands of people face starvation.

Outside the western world history will look back on these times extremely unfavourably. Perhaps in many ways worse than the Holocaust. The true horrors of what the Nazis did was largely hidden and discovered late into, and after, World War 2 ended. Due to the scale of the war the ability to intervene - even if it was known - would have been limited.

The western world has stood by complicit, at best silent and at worst enabling the horrors committed by the Israeli regime. This has all happened in plain sight with critics smeared as anything from terorist sympathisers to antisemites. Only the intrinsic bias (and outright racism) of the west will mean they continue to deny what is obvious in the global south.

Pierre 22-03-2024 11:06
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172370)
How the mighty have fallen. America finally calls for an immediate ceasefire as hundreds of thousands of people face starvation.

Outside the western world history will look back on these times extremely unfavourably. Perhaps in many ways worse than the Holocaust. The true horrors of what the Nazis did was largely hidden and discovered late into, and after, World War 2 ended. Due to the scale of the war the ability to intervene - even if it was known - would have been limited.

The western world has stood by complicit, at best silent and at worst enabling the horrors committed by the Israeli regime. This has all happened in plain sight with critics smeared as anything from terorist sympathisers to antisemites. Only the intrinsic bias (and outright racism) of the west will mean they continue to deny what is obvious in the global south.
The Western world stood by complicit enabling the horrors committed by Saudi Arabia, Saudi backed militants, Iranian backed Houthis, Al-Qaeda and Islamic state. more than 227,000 (that was 2021) killed by war and famine, including 11,000 children.

All happened in plain sight, no one cared, no marching in the streets every weekend

People only care now because it's Israel that's doing it.

ianch99 22-03-2024 11:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172370)
How the mighty have fallen. America finally calls for an immediate ceasefire as hundreds of thousands of people face starvation.

Outside the western world history will look back on these times extremely unfavourably. Perhaps in many ways worse than the Holocaust. The true horrors of what the Nazis did was largely hidden and discovered late into, and after, World War 2 ended. Due to the scale of the war the ability to intervene - even if it was known - would have been limited.

The western world has stood by complicit, at best silent and at worst enabling the horrors committed by the Israeli regime. This has all happened in plain sight with critics smeared as anything from terorist sympathisers to antisemites. Only the intrinsic bias (and outright racism) of the west will mean they continue to deny what is obvious in the global south.
Not sure what you say about being worse than the Holocaust is correct. Trying to equate them would be a mistake. In fact, the Allies knew about the mass killing of the Polish Jews in mid-1942 but decided to prioritise on their war efforts and so, later on in the war, did not target the death camps even though they knew about them in 1944.

You are right about the power & influence of the pro-Israel advocates in shouting down the protests when it was clear the IDF were on a revenge mission and 1000,s of women & children were being killed. The West, with a few exceptions, should be ashamed by their hand-wringing while they watched this play out. So many times, they trotted out the "Israel has a right to defend itself" card while they watched the killing & ethnic cleaning.

jfman 22-03-2024 11:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172372)
Not sure what you say about being worse than the Holocaust is correct. Trying to equate them would be a mistake. In fact, the Allies knew about the mass killing of the Polish Jews in mid-1942 but decided to prioritise on their war efforts and so, later on in the war, did not target the death camps even though they knew about them in 1944.
Considering the allies in 1942 would have had limited, if any, capability in the middle of a war to intervene I’m not sure how you find your comparison valid.

The equivalent role to that the United States have played to date would be actively arming the Nazis.

Quote:
You are right about the power & influence of the pro-Israel advocates in shouting down the protests when it was clear the IDF were on a revenge mission and 1000,s of women & children were being killed. The West, with a few exceptions, should be ashamed by their hand-wringing while they watched this play out. So many times, they trotted out the "Israel has a right to defend itself" card while they watched the killing & ethnic cleaning.
This was evident from October 8th. I’ve said it before and will again, the first few pages of this thread age extremely badly. Nobody doubts the horrors of October 7th however judgement was very significantly impaired throughout.

Hugh 22-03-2024 11:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172370)
How the mighty have fallen. America finally calls for an immediate ceasefire as hundreds of thousands of people face starvation.

Outside the western world history will look back on these times extremely unfavourably. Perhaps in many ways worse than the Holocaust. The true horrors of what the Nazis did was largely hidden and discovered late into, and after, World War 2 ended. Due to the scale of the war the ability to intervene - even if it was known - would have been limited.

The western world has stood by complicit, at best silent and at worst enabling the horrors committed by the Israeli regime. This has all happened in plain sight with critics smeared as anything from terorist sympathisers to antisemites. Only the intrinsic bias (and outright racism) of the west will mean they continue to deny what is obvious in the global south.
I remember reading your equally vociferous condemnation of the Rohingya genocide, the Russians undertaking genocide in Chechnya, the Darfur Genocide, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean genocides…

Oh wait, the USA hasn’t been involved in those…

jfman 22-03-2024 11:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36172375)
I remember reading your equally vociferous condemnation of the Rohingya genocide, the Russians undertaking genocide in Chechnya, the Darfur Genocide, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean genocides…

Oh wait, the USA hasn’t been involved in those…
Likewise the “Israel has the right to defend itself… something something… (justify war crimes)” brigade.

Chris 22-03-2024 13:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172373)
This was evident from October 8th. I’ve said it before and will again, the first few pages of this thread age extremely badly. Nobody doubts the horrors of October 7th however judgement was very significantly impaired throughout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172378)
Likewise the “Israel has the right to defend itself… something something… (justify war crimes)” brigade.
Indeed. The thread was less than 4 hours and 10 posts old when you weighed in with your first ‘yeah but Israeli war crimes’.

I suspect Whitaboot is your middle name.

jfman 22-03-2024 14:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36172379)
Indeed. The thread was less than 4 hours and 10 posts old when you weighed in with your first ‘yeah but Israeli war crimes’.

I suspect Whitaboot is your middle name.
And I addressed that then - Israeli war crimes are absolutely a catalyst for retaliatory action. The next couple of decades will almost certainly see the current victims of Israeli aggression and their families rise up, with no shortage of sympathetic money flowing from around the Middle East and further afield.

Nobody can feign surprise when it does, and the first page of that thread will inevitably look back on Israel’s potential war crimes as they destroy Palestinian lives up and down Gaza. There’s no reason for Palestinians to respect an Israeli state hell bent on destroying their very existence.

Pierre 22-03-2024 14:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172380)
There’s no reason for Palestinians to respect an Israeli state hell bent on destroying their very existence.
and Vice Versa.

jfman 22-03-2024 19:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172382)
and Vice Versa.
There’s no evidence that the vast majority of Palestinians want to do anything other than live peacefully on their own land. It’s a nice piece of Zionist rhetoric to claim otherwise, as it makes it easier to dehumanise Palestinians.

Pierre 22-03-2024 19:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172389)
There’s no evidence that the vast majority of Palestinians want to do anything other than live peacefully on their own land. It’s a nice piece of Zionist rhetoric to claim otherwise, as it makes it easier to dehumanise Palestinians.
Israelis want to live peacefully in their sovereign country.

Albeit surrounded on all sides by those that want them erased.

Palestinians have had Gaza to themselves to nearly two decades, they could have turned it into a Mediterranean Dubai in that time.

Anyway, it’s all been said before, all arguments, from all sides, round and round we go.

The only difference this time is Israel is going to finish what Hamas started on Oct 7th. I would have hoped Israel may have started to take things on a different course by now. But I’m not Israeli and they’ll do what they believe they need to do.

It’s not as though we’re admonishing Ukraine for defending their right to exist, are we?

jfman 22-03-2024 20:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172392)
Israelis want to live peacefully in their sovereign country.

Albeit surrounded on all sides by those that want them erased.

Palestinians have had Gaza to themselves to nearly two decades, they could have turned it into a Mediterranean Dubai in that time.

Anyway, it’s all been said before, all arguments, from all sides, round and round we go.

The only difference this time is Israel is going to finish what Hamas started on Oct 7th. I would have hoped Israel may have started to take things on a different course by now. But I’m not Israeli and they’ll do what they believe they need to do.

It’s not as though we’re admonishing Ukraine for defending their right to exist, are we?
Israel, as an occupying force, absolutely wouldn't have allowed economic development in Gaza to reach that of Dubai. Anyone claiming as such is a fantasist at best or deluded at worst.

Pierre 22-03-2024 20:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172393)
Israel, as an occupying force
Israel isn’t an occupying force, to say so shows an historical ignorance.

But even if I was to take that comment at face value, Gaza was not occupied, in fact Israeli families were forcibly removed from Gaza in order to give the territory wholly to Palestinians.

Quote:
absolutely wouldn't have allowed economic development in Gaza to reach that of Dubai. Anyone claiming as such is a fantasist at best or deluded at worst.
You don’t know that, that statement purely the result of your own mind and no one else’s.

Anyway there’s no real point is continuing down this avenue as you’re entrenched in your stance and I am comfortable with my position.

jfman 22-03-2024 20:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172396)
Israel isn’t an occupying force, to say so shows an historical ignorance.

But even if I was to take that comment at face value, Gaza was not occupied, in fact Israeli families were forcibly removed from Gaza in order to give the territory wholly to Palestinians.

You don’t know that, that statement purely the result of your own mind and no one else’s.

Anyway there’s no real point is continuing down this avenue as you’re entrenched in your stance and I am comfortable with my position.
Israel are absolutely an occupying force. I can't substantively engage with points that start from such an egregious falsehood.

Pierre 22-03-2024 21:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172397)
Israel are absolutely an occupying force.
As I say, ignorance of history, but I suppose they hope that if enough people keep on saying it, it will become common parlance. Keep chanting the chants and ignoring the facts.

Quote:
I can't substantively engage with points that start from such an egregious falsehood.
Probably best you don’t then.

Paul 23-03-2024 00:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172397)
Israel are absolutely an occupying force. I can't substantively engage with points that start from such an egregious falsehood.
Best you dont engage at all then. I doubt anyone takes you seriously by now anyway, you've made your hatred of anything related to Israel more than clear. I've said it multiple times, nothing you post makes me think any different, you should still apply for that post as Hamas spokesman.

jfman 23-03-2024 10:16
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36172403)
Best you dont engage at all then. I doubt anyone takes you seriously by now anyway, you've made your hatred of anything related to Israel more than clear. I've said it multiple times, nothing you post makes me think any different, you should still apply for that post as Hamas spokesman.
I’ve never posted a single statement driven by “hatred” of Israel and you’ll not be able to find one and quote it back to me if you trawl the entire thread.

I’m completely indifferent to whether or not any forum member changes their mind as a result of posts made in this thread or any other.

Believing Palestinians have the same human rights as anyone else isn’t “hatred” of Israel.

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172399)
As I say, ignorance of history, but I suppose they hope that if enough people keep on saying it, it will become common parlance. Keep chanting the chants and ignoring the facts.

Probably best you don’t then.
For someone that substantially believes the history of the conflict started on October 7th, and no events prior to this have merit for discussion, claiming anyone else has an ignorance of history is outstanding.

ianch99 25-03-2024 10:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172404)
Believing Palestinians have the same human rights as anyone else isn’t “hatred” of Israel.
I think this is the essential point, Some people who support what Israel is doing actually do disagree with this. I know that a number of Israel government ministers disagree together with a disturbing number of Israelis citizens.

If you think that the Arabs do not deserve the same rights, freedoms, etc. as yourself then you can rationalise what do you are allowed to do to them and how you do it. If you then add the toxic narrative that since they voted in Hamas and did not rid themselves of these Islamists, Gazans deserve the consequences of the ongoing conflict. Sort of summed up by: "If they die, then they die". There is a enormous historical irony here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172404)
For someone that substantially believes the history of the conflict started on October 7th, and no events prior to this have merit for discussion, claiming anyone else has an ignorance of history is outstanding.
So true

Pierre 25-03-2024 10:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172468)
So true
How so?

ianch99 25-03-2024 15:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
This is going to be interesting:

UN Security Council resolution calls for Gaza ceasefire

Quote:
The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza, after the US refrained from vetoing the measure in a change from its previous position.

The text also demands the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

The Security Council had been at an impasse since the war began in October, failing to agree on a ceasefire call.

The move by the US signals growing divergence between it and its ally Israel over Israel's offensive in Gaza.
Bibi will throw his toys out of the pram I suspect ...

Pierre 25-03-2024 16:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172481)
This is going to be interesting:

UN Security Council resolution calls for Gaza ceasefire



Bibi will throw his toys out of the pram I suspect ...
No he won't, he doesn't care what the UN say, he has a war to win.

Do you think Hamas will do what the UN says?

jfman 25-03-2024 17:21
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172488)
No he won't, he doesn't care what the UN say, he has a war to win.

Do you think Hamas will do what the UN says?
No, we just don't think 1.6 million people deserve to starve if they don't.

Pierre 25-03-2024 17:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172493)
No, we just don't think 1.6 million people deserve to starve if they don't.
I don’t think anybody deserves to starve.

jfman 25-03-2024 17:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172494)
I don’t think anybody deserves to starve.
Even Hamas?

Everyone has a hierarchy.

The reality is Palestinian suffering is deemed to be a price worth paying for Israeli ethnic nationalism to succeed.

Haven't heard many people giving it large about Russia's unqualified right to protect itself since the biggest terror attack on it's soil in about 15 years.

They, of course, know what that'd mean. Do we even have a thread?

Pierre 25-03-2024 18:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172498)
Even Hamas?
I’d rather see them brought to justice.

Quote:
The reality is Palestinian suffering is deemed to be a price worth paying for Israeli ethnic nationalism to succeed.
The reality is that the actions in Gaza are regrettable and were avoidable.

Quote:
Haven't heard many people giving it large about Russia's unqualified right to protect itself since the biggest terror attack on its soil in about 15 years.
If Russia want to go and attack whatever state this particular ISIS cell hail from, i wouldn’t object.

Quote:
They, of course, know what that'd mean. Do we even have a thread?
What does it mean?

1andrew1 25-03-2024 20:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172481)
This is going to be interesting:
UN Security Council resolution calls for Gaza ceasefire
Bibi will throw his toys out of the pram I suspect ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172488)
No he won't, he doesn't care what the UN say, he has a war to win.
I think Hugh called it right.
Quote:
After the vote, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu cancelled a planned delegation visit to Washington
https://news.sky.com/story/un-securi...efire-13101682.

Pierre 25-03-2024 21:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172504)
The US are great allies of Israel, but Israel will not jeopardise their security just because the US wish it.

There is still a majority of the US that favour Israel and there is no administration, especially in an election year, that will venture beyond an agnostic position.

1andrew1 25-03-2024 22:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172506)
The US are great allies of Israel, but Israel will not jeopardise their security just because the US wish it.
I don't think the US wishes to jeopardise Israel's security. Quite the contrary given the arms it continues to suppliy to Israel.

What makes you think otherwise?

ianch99 25-03-2024 23:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172504)
Hugh? :)

1andrew1 25-03-2024 23:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172514)
Hugh? :)
:D :dunce:

jfman 26-03-2024 07:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172506)
The US are great allies of Israel, but Israel will not jeopardise their security just because the US wish it.

There is still a majority of the US that favour Israel and there is no administration, especially in an election year, that will venture beyond an agnostic position.
The flaw is assuming that this action continues to make Israel safer in the long run.

With clear examples of summarily executing women and children, and now allegations of raping Palestinian women at hospitals, it's unclear that this action won't radicalise more people against Israel not the other way round.

Hugh 26-03-2024 10:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172514)
Hugh? :)
Yes?

1andrew1 26-03-2024 10:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172523)
The flaw is assuming that this action continues to make Israel safer in the long run.
Agreed. Blindly accepting that an extremist's (Netanyahu's) course of action must be right in the face of opposition from the World and his own country is a tad naive.

ianch99 26-03-2024 11:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36172530)
Yes?
Maybe :confused:

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172532)
Agreed. Blindly accepting that an extremist's (Netanyahu's) course of action must be right in the face of opposition from the World and his own country is a tad naive.
Yes, they are well on the road to becoming a Rogue State

Pierre 26-03-2024 19:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36172535)
Yes, they are well on the road to becoming a Rogue State
Like Ukraine?

jfman 26-03-2024 21:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172556)
Like Ukraine?
Now, now. Even a rogue state generally has basic elements that Ukraine lack. Control over it's borders, a volunteer army, fully independent domestic and foreign policy, the pretence of democracy and a pluralist media.

Langley's puppet regime in Kiev can only dream of the status of a rogue state.

Chris 26-03-2024 21:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172560)
Now, now. Even a rogue state generally has basic elements that Ukraine lack. Control over it's borders, a volunteer army, fully independent domestic and foreign policy, the pretence of democracy and a pluralist media.

Langley's puppet regime in Kiev can only dream of the status of a rogue state.
If you’re a hacker cosplaying jfman you need to tone it down a bit, even he’s not generally this unhinged :spin:

Pierre 26-03-2024 22:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172560)
Now, now. Even a rogue state generally has basic elements that Ukraine lack. Control over it's borders, a volunteer army, fully independent domestic and foreign policy, the pretence of democracy and a pluralist media.

Langley's puppet regime in Kiev can only dream of the status of a rogue state.
Sorry, I just thought that a nation defending itself from attack and enacting its right to exist, was now under the umbrella definition of “rogue state”. As seen to be implied by previous posts.

1andrew1 26-03-2024 22:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172564)
Sorry, I just thought that a nation defending itself from attack and enacting its right to exist, was now under the umbrella definition of “rogue state”. As seen to be implied by previous posts.
Come back to us when the UN accuses them of genocide.
Quote:
Gaza war: UN rights expert accuses Israel of acts of genocide

A UN human rights expert says she believes Israel has committed "acts of genocide" in Gaza.

Francesca Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, presented her report to UN member states in Geneva on Tuesday.

But Israel has already dismissed her findings.

This comes amid growing international pressure on Israel to stop the war or to do much more to protect civilians.

Ms Albanese concluded that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating the commission of the crime of genocide against Palestinians as a group in Gaza has been met".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68667556

Hugh 27-03-2024 00:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172560)
Now, now. Even a rogue state generally has basic elements that Ukraine lack. Control over it's borders, a volunteer army, fully independent domestic and foreign policy, the pretence of democracy and a pluralist media.

Langley's puppet regime in Kiev can only dream of the status of a rogue state.
Speaking of states that don’t have a volunteer army and a pluralist media, how is your favourite state, Russia?

Pierre 27-03-2024 09:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172565)
Come back to us when the UN accuses them of genocide.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68667556
The UN has not accused them of genocide, an UN employee has. You know the same UN that had actual other UN employees taking part in the Oct 7th Massacre.

It carries about as much weight as you accusing them of genocide.

If the UN actually declared a genocide was, or had, taken place (and they've only done that 3 times Serbia, Rwanda & Cambodia) signatories to the UN convention of genocide would be obligated to put Blue caps on their military and put a stop to it, and arrest those committing the genocide and bring them to the Hague.

jfman 27-03-2024 10:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172575)
The UN has not accused them of genocide, an UN employee has. You know the same UN that had actual other UN employees taking part in the Oct 7th Massacre.

It carries about as much weight as you accusing them of genocide.

If the UN actually declared a genocide was, or had, taken place (and they've only done that 3 times Serbia, Rwanda & Cambodia) signatories to the UN convention of genocide would be obligated to put Blue caps on their military and put a stop to it, and arrest those committing the genocide and bring them to the Hague.
Is there any evidence that UN employees took part or can I chalk that up alongside the beheaded babies as an Israeli myth?

Pierre 27-03-2024 10:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172578)
Is there any evidence that UN employees took part or can I chalk that up alongside the beheaded babies as an Israeli myth?
https://unwatch.org/evidence-of-unrw...r-october-7th/

Do what you want with it.

Hugh 27-03-2024 11:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...no-evidence-un

Quote:
A month after Israeli allegations that a dozen United Nations staff were involved in the 7 October Hamas attack, UN investigators have yet to receive any evidence from Israel to support the claims, though they expect some material to be forthcoming “shortly”.

The allegations against the 12 employees of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine (UNRWA) led 16 major donors to suspend contributions totalling $450m at a time when more than 2 million Gazans are facing famine. UNRWA says it is approaching “breaking point” and only has sufficient funds to continue functioning for the next month at most.

The UN Office of Internal Oversight Services (OIOS) launched an investigation on 29 January in the wake of the Israeli allegations initially presented to UNRWA in January, and delivered an update on its work to the UN secretary general, António Guterres, on Wednesday.

Diplomats who saw the OIOS preliminary report said it contained no new evidence from Israel since the initial presentation of the claims in January – which were not backed by any proof. In summarising the findings, the UN spokesperson, Stéphane Dujarric, confirmed that the investigation had yet to receive corroborating material from Israel.

1andrew1 27-03-2024 11:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172575)
The UN has not accused them of genocide, an UN employee has. You know the same UN that had actual other UN employees taking part in the Oct 7th Massacre.

It carries about as much weight as you accusing them of genocide.

If the UN actually declared a genocide was, or had, taken place (and they've only done that 3 times Serbia, Rwanda & Cambodia) signatories to the UN convention of genocide would be obligated to put Blue caps on their military and put a stop to it, and arrest those committing the genocide and bring them to the Hague.
I'll reword it. Come back to me when a UN rights expert accuses them ie Ukraine of genocide.

jfman 27-03-2024 12:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172586)
I'll reword it. Come back to me when a UN rights expert accuses them ie Ukraine of genocide.
Why would they? NATO taking pot shots at the Kersch bridge in Russian Crimea and other bite of energy infrastructure might be poor form but it's not starving hundreds of thousands of people.

Maggy 27-03-2024 12:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172581)
None of that is proof. There is no evidence presented just a series of statements.

ianch99 27-03-2024 12:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172595)
Why would they? NATO taking pot shots at the Kersch bridge in Russian Crimea and other bite of energy infrastructure might be poor form but it's not starving hundreds of thousands of people.
Just to be clear, this should read:

Quote:
Ukraine taking pot shots at the Kersch bridge in Occupied Crimea

Pierre 27-03-2024 12:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36172596)
None of that is proof. There is no evidence presented just a series of statements.
Eyewitness statements are evidence.

Photos are evidence.

Videos are evidence.

I will agree that it needs to be corroborated, you can't accept it all at face value, as I wouldn't accept anything from Hamas at face value.

Hugh 27-03-2024 13:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172595)
Why would they? NATO taking pot shots at the Kersch bridge in Russian Crimea and other bite of energy infrastructure might be poor form but it's not starving hundreds of thousands of people.
https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2024/03/1.gif

jfman 27-03-2024 15:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172599)
Eyewitness statements are evidence.

Photos are evidence.

Videos are evidence.
Are there any where the primary source isn't discredited (Israel). I remind everyone, once again, that the claims of 40 beheaded babies didn't happen.

Pierre 27-03-2024 15:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172607)
I remind everyone, once again, that the claims of 40 beheaded babies didn't happen.
Is it the the number you're disputing? or that no babies were harmed in the making of this pogrom?

jfman 27-03-2024 15:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172609)
Is it the the number you're disputing? or that no babies were harmed in the making of this pogrom?
I'm making a clear and unambiguous statement that a piece of Israeli information distributed at outset to manufacture consent for their operation is a lie.

So when they, for example, claim that a hospital is a Hamas base or that the UN are terrorists it'd be sensible to corroborate this with a more credible source.

Maggy 27-03-2024 16:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172599)
Eyewitness statements are evidence.

Photos are evidence.

Videos are evidence.

I will agree that it needs to be corroborated, you can't accept it all at face value, as I wouldn't accept anything from Hamas at face value.
So wait until it IS corroborated by all relevant authorities.

Pierre 27-03-2024 18:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172611)
I'm making a clear and unambiguous statement that a piece of Israeli information distributed at outset to manufacture consent for their operation is a lie.

So when they, for example, claim that a hospital is a Hamas base or that the UN are terrorists it'd be sensible to corroborate this with a more credible source.
I’ll ask again.

Is it the the number you're disputing? or that no babies were harmed in the making of this pogrom?

jfman 27-03-2024 18:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172626)
I’ll ask again.

Is it the the number you're disputing? or that no babies were harmed in the making of this pogrom?
Ask again all you want it's the same answer - it was an Israeli propaganda piece to galvanise worldwide opinion and silence it's opponents.

There's no reason to believe the hit piece on the UN isn't out of exactly the same playbook.

If we are talking about harm to children what about the thousands killed in Israeli bombing raids or picked off by sniper fire. What about the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, at risk of starvation.

I'll give you a clue if your answer involves the word Hamas you are the problem.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kid...we-know-about/

2 infants, 12 other children under 10. No mention of beheading. 40 beheaded babies wasn't an accidental claim.

Pierre 27-03-2024 21:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172628)
if your answer involves the word Hamas you are the problem.
You should make a t-shirt out of that, Will sell well at the weekends in London.

jfman 28-03-2024 18:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Although they'll undoubtedly ignore it the ICJ have ordered Israel to allow uninhibited access for aid to be distributed within Gaza as famine is setting in.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-gaza-food-aid

It can palpably be demonstrated that Israel are blocking aid, as even it's own allies/enablers are resorting to building a port!

1701-e 02-04-2024 13:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Israel killing aid workers accidentally...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949 Yep we believe you

1andrew1 02-04-2024 15:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1701-e (Post 36172902)
Israel killing aid workers accidentally...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949 Yep we believe you
And the consequence of having no aid workers to distribute the aid is
Quote:
Ships turning back from Gaza with 240 tonnes of undelivered aid, Cyprus says

Earlier, we reported that World Central Kitchen was suspending its operations in Gaza after the killings of seven of its aid workers in an Israeli strike.

Three aid ships from Cyprus arrived on Monday carrying hundreds of tonnes of food and supplies organised by the charity and the UAE.

Around 100 tonnes had been unloaded before the charity suspended operations but now Cypriot foreign ministry spokesman Theodoros Gotsis says the remaining 240 tonnes will be sent back to Cyprus.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ga...-blog-12978800

Damien 02-04-2024 15:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Israel is just seeing how fast they can lose any goodwill they have with their allies at this point. The long-term damage they are doing to their image with those who previously had a great deal of support for them is huge and I don't understand why this isn't factoring into their thinking as they continue to bomb Gaza with little regard for innocent casualties.

Pierre 02-04-2024 15:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36172907)
Israel is just seeing how fast they can lose any goodwill they have with their allies at this point. The long-term damage they are doing to their image with those who previously had a great deal of support for them is huge and I don't understand why this isn't factoring into their thinking as they continue to bomb Gaza with little regard for innocent casualties.
Not wiping out Hamas, and showing what will happen to any other groups that might fancy carrying out another Oct 7th, could potentially cause them more long term damage, than their “image”

Damien 02-04-2024 15:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172908)
Not wiping out Hamas, and showing what will happen to any other groups that might fancy carrying out another Oct 7th, could potentially cause them more long term damage, than their “image”
I am sceptical that they will wipe out Hamas. Their leadership lives away from the havoc they sought to cause, their funding comes from Iran and these last few months are probably going to give them a load more recruits.

1andrew1 02-04-2024 16:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172908)
Not wiping out Hamas, and showing what will happen to any other groups that might fancy carrying out another Oct 7th, could potentially cause them more long term damage, than their “image”
Israel seems to be creating more orphans and therefore more Hamas fighters, thereby creating more of a long-term threat to itself. It needs to rebuild Gaza and give the citizens reasons not to support Hamas other than bombing them. According to former MI6 Chief John Sawers, citing a senior #Israel intel official, "60% of #Hamas fighters alive today are orphans from previous wars."
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/s...17413642543255
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000650766084

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36172909)
I am sceptical that they will wipe out Hamas. Their leadership lives away from the havoc they sought to cause, their funding comes from Iran and these last few months are probably going to give them a load more recruits.
Exactly. Therein lies the problem.

jfman 02-04-2024 16:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
At least when an innocent American gets killed they get an apology. What about the tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians?

1andrew1 02-04-2024 17:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172914)
At least when an innocent American gets killed they get an apology. What about the tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians?
Their families will be told that collateral damage happens in war and is a consequence of letting Hamas come to power.

jfman 02-04-2024 18:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36172921)
Their families will be told that collateral damage happens in war and is a consequence of letting Hamas come to power.
And they’ll find that completely implausible just as most of us did in this thread.

Essentially tens of thousands will have nothing to live for but revenge since Israel have decimated the economy and infrastructure. The consequences of this are entirely predictable.

1andrew1 02-04-2024 18:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172922)
And they’ll find that completely implausible just as most of us did in this thread.

Essentially tens of thousands will have nothing to live for but revenge since Israel have decimated the economy and infrastructure. The consequences of this are entirely predictable.
Exactly.

TheDaddy 02-04-2024 18:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36172908)
Not wiping out Hamas, and showing what will happen to any other groups that might fancy carrying out another Oct 7th, could potentially cause them more long term damage, than their “image”
You can't actually believe that so I'll assume you're just trolling as usual

jfman 02-04-2024 21:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36172929)
You can't actually believe that so I'll assume you're just trolling as usual
In fairness to Pierre, he’s been fairly consistent on two points:
  • Only nation states have the right to use force to achieve their objectives (and largely without restraint.)
  • Military force acts as a deterrent.

We’ve went round and round on the first, there’s no need to revisit.

On the second he’s largely right. For 99% of people it is a deterrent. The problem is that 1% of 1.6 million people is 16,000. Their still to be born children thousands more. October 7th was perpetrated by an estimated 3,000 Hamas fighters.

ianch99 02-04-2024 21:06
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Someone is lying:

‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

Quote:
Dr Fozia Alvi was making her rounds of the intensive care unit on her final day at the battered European public hospital in southern Gaza when she stopped next to two young arrivals with facial injuries and breathing tubes in their windpipes.

“I asked the nurse, what’s the history? She said that they were brought in a couple of hours ago. They had sniper shots to the brain. They were seven or eight years old,” she said.

The Canadian doctor’s heart sank. These were not the first children treated by Alvi who she was told were targeted by Israeli soldiers, and she knew the damage a single high-calibre bullet could do to a fragile young body.

“They were not able to talk, paraplegic. They were literally lying down as vegetables on those beds. They were not the only ones. I saw even small children with direct sniper shot wounds to the head as well as in the chest. They were not combatants, they were small children,” said Alvi.
Quote:
IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive

Paul 02-04-2024 22:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1701-e (Post 36172902)
Israel killing aid workers accidentally...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949 Yep we believe you
So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?

TheDaddy 02-04-2024 22:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36172932)
In fairness to Pierre, he’s been fairly consistent on two points:
  • Only nation states have the right to use force to achieve their objectives (and largely without restraint.)
  • Military force acts as a deterrent.

We’ve went round and round on the first, there’s no need to revisit.

On the second he’s largely right. For 99% of people it is a deterrent. The problem is that 1% of 1.6 million people is 16,000. Their still to be born children thousands more. October 7th was perpetrated by an estimated 3,000 Hamas fighters.
It's not a deterrent at all, the first Intifada was stone throwers and the odd riot, Israel's disproportionate use of force led directly to the second intifada with its suicide bombers and the rise of hamas, what will this wholly disproportionate response lead to peace or something worse, history tells us something worse

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36172938)
So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?
Kinda helps with the old starve the population tactic

jfman 02-04-2024 22:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36172938)
So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?
Deterrence.

Less aid workers means less aid. The campaign of starvation proceeds with the cover of plausible deniability. Less aid workers means less witnesses, and saves Israel from having to deploy false claims of antisemitism (at best) or aiding terrorism (at worst).

Applying our own moral rationale to a military force, and other state apparatus, that burns hospitals to the ground, kills women and children under sniper fire, tortures prisoners and rapes Palestinian women starts with a flawed premise.

Paul 02-04-2024 22:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36172939)
Kinda helps with the old starve the population tactic
Straws and grasping springs to mind.
Killing a few aid workers isnt going to starve the population, it is, however, going to alienate their diminishing support. However defiant they may be in public, they need to keep their allies on board, not to mention their own people, who I seriously doubt think killing aid workers is a great idea. As I understand it, their PM is already under pressure.

Damien 02-04-2024 22:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36172938)
So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?
I don't think they killed them on purpose but I don't think they stop to check much or really care who gets in the way. It's just indiscrimiante bombing if they somewhat suspect they might be Hamas. So long as they think that then they don't bother to be careful, they don't double check, they level everything in sight and any civilians be damned.

These workers did everything right. https://archive.ph/FaTpm

They were working in a zone previously approved by the IDF for humanitarian aid. They coordinated with the IDF where they would be. They had their symbols on the truck.

But the IDF suspect there was an armed man and that man might be a terrorist. Even though they couldn't be sure and that the man never left with the trucks they decided to bomb anyway.


Quote:
At some point, when the convoy was driving along the approved route, the war room of the unit responsible for security of the route ordered the drone operators to attack one of the cars with a missile.

Some of the passengers were seen leaving the car after it was hit and switching to one of the other two cars. They continued to drive and even notified the people responsible that they were attacked, but, seconds later, another missile hit their car.

The third car in the convoy approached, and the passengers began to transfer to it the wounded who had survived the second strike – in order to get them out of danger. But then a third missile struck them. All seven World Central Kitchen volunteers were killed in the strike.


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