Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I was having a look myself. Of course, the negotiation from the Irish side of things is being done by Maroš Šefčovič of the EU Commission but this is what I am seeing;

Biden intervention in NI Protocol row 'significant' - Taoiseach
EU frustration at lack of protocol progress - Coveney
Northern Ireland faces ‘turbulent few months’ over Brexit, says Varadkar (OK deputy leader)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Cheers jonbxx, some good reads there, most of which seems to be concerned with a possible breakdown of the 'peace process' . . and a return to the bad old days I guess, although that, like the Palestine/Israel thing, won't go away.

No mention of sausages anywhere, either because the articles are slightly dated or it's only the English press that reduce a top story to the base ingredient of 'sausages' :D

I was hoping I'd find . . anywhere . . a quote from a NI butcher, along the lines of "my customers will only purchase the finest products from local farmers, why would I cut my throat trying to sell them English meat?" ;)

Anyway, sausages are old news now that 'Biden the Bold' has arrived to make everything perfect (like in the USA) :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

what's wrong with a real meat n gut's story:shrug:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nothing I guess, but I think 99% of the English population don't give a skinless one about who's sausages the Irish eat :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But if the Irish eat the wrong sausage or eat mince n taties the European union will collapse, their whole existence relies on sausage control, that's why they're not mincing words over this issue.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe we could add a sticker to English sausage skins?

'Danger: Do Not Eat If In EU'

We could have 34 different languages on them, just to be on the safe side, and also a disclaimer for those Countries that are IN and OUT at the same side :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is it because the Irish sausage has the skin on the inside?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure if serious....

If you are serious then your anger/upset or whatever it is needs to be directed at the UK Government not the EU. The UK Gov signed the deal, I don't recall ever the EU placing a gun to the governments head. Do you?

There is nothing unpatriotic about what others are saying

People are saying 'told you so' because guess what, in some aspects they're correct.

If we had you in charge then the UK would not be friends with any other countries, not a great way to try and make your way in the world.

You didn't get the Brexit you wanted. Oh well, diddums. guess what in a few years time you can vote to kick them out :)

You voted for Brexit, I'm assuming that you voted for the Tories, The government accepted the deal from the EU.

Play your part in accepting the outcome that you're responsible for and stop bleating.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wiki states he is 5/8th’s Irish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Joe_Biden

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If you want to sort things out, you need an honest assessment of the situation. Pretending we're playing cowboys and indians with an enemy is a tad simplistic.

I would also highlight that it's not pro-anyone to point out that Biden values the Irish vote back home. It's also not pro-anyone that the Democrats see the Good Friday Agreement as one of their strongest diplomatic achievements, to be strongly defended.

And it's not Jon, me or the EU who issued the UK with a démarche, a formal diplomatic reprimand, for inflaming the rhetoric in Northern Ireland. That was the USA.

There seem to be four options:
1) Kick the tin can down the road and agree a postponement
2) As you have suggested, we can go for veterinary equivalence and sign up to EU rules. But as Jon has warned, we then risk being described as a vassal state
3) We don't supply chilled meats, etc to Northern Ireland
4) We break an international treaty and carry on supplying NI with chilled meat products, etc past the deadline of 30th June.

If you're David Frost, which one would you choose? Or is there another option?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Number 3 . . all the way . . final answer etc etc.

Kills the problem stone dead, frees everyone up to go searching for the next sticking point that this will undoubtedly create :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well hello!!!

I have just completed a sales straining course and have been reviewing the notes. Loud and clear throughout is the absolute need to understand the customers needs and expectations and also potential objections. This lets you pitch your sales in the correct way for that specific customer. We are a customer of the EU and the EU is a customer of the UK. Each party has their own needs, expectations and objections and understanding and appreciating them allows you to understand what you can get and what you can't.

If I called my customers the enemy if they said 'no' to me, I wouldn't be in a job very long. 'No' is as an important signal as 'yes' because the next question is 'why' and from there, there is potential for movement or compromise.

I want what is best for the UK. Now the details of what I consider the best and what you consider the best might be different but the overarching sentiment is the same. To be called unpatriotic because my views are different from yours is not fair unless you and you alone are in the position of what is best and can prove that all other positions are not as good as yours.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly. Explaining the EU's needs (eg to maintain the integrity of Single Market) is not being unpatriotic. It is intelligence that helps you to decide how best to approach negotiations. I dread to imagine how Seph's approach would play out around some of the board rooms I've sat in. Let's just say, I would ensure my mortgage was paid off before I took such an approach!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We are where we are. Complaining about the PM, the US or the EU may make for jolly banter down the Constitution Club but it doesn't work for trade negotiations.

Which of the four options should we go for? Or do you have a fifth up your sleeve?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's not about which box we ticked in 2016, it's about how we solve the current situation which we should try and face objectively.

It sounds like you are in fact suggesting Option 4. We have signed an agreement with the EU and we can't travel back in time and unsign it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

and his successor (whoever you want that to be) will do better because . . . ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We will be breaking the treaty because the EU is sticking to the agreement that both sides signed up to?

It wasn't just Boris - the Conservatives in Parliament agreed to it too.

Is that the grown up equivalent of "a big boy made me do it?"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's a fair call.

If you changed some of the key players be it the Prime Minister or the Chief Negotiator then you could probably get the EU to extend the deadline by a few months. But you would still be left with the same three remaining choices. On the other hand, you may have more leeway with the British public as a new PM. You could blame the current situation on your predecessor and state you had a difficult to choice to make and go for option 2 or 3.
As jonbxx has explained, understanding your negotiating party's position is not unpatriotic it's common sense. Doesn't mean you have to agree with their position.

By typing out the four options doesn't mean I am suggesting one of them above the others. As someone who seemed genuinely upset about the situation that the UK is in, I was trying to understand which route you wished us to take. I understand it to be:
I'm not a great sausage person I'm afraid. Too much experience of gristle and bones as a child.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

At least he's 3/8 perfect ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

His ancestors were from the South...

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Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Must be a good sort then. :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I meant England…

(replying to the 3/8ths comment…)

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

I'm beginning to suspect the Daily Telegraph isn't that keen on the EU (difficult to believe, I know...).

The "moment of our greatest weakness" and "imposed"?

Do they mean "the moment" when a Conservative Government rushed through a Withdrawal Bill with 14 hours debate time, the one where BoJo urged Conservative Eurosceptics to back the deal, saying it made good “on every one of our manifesto commitments”

Even David Davis said

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That additional quote also includes the words "The EU wasn’t acting rationally: it was set on kamikaze mode, committed to punishing Britain at any cost." Not the conventional idea of balance, more like pandering to those Conservatives who think the current government has left us up the creek and equipped us with a butter knife instead of a paddle.

The Telegraph article also omits the fact that the EU offered the UK an extension. As I and others said at the time, this would have given us more chance to strike a better deal.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

BoJo signed up to the deal as he'd run out of time, making the UK a weaker party in negotiations. Hence it was that deal or break the Good Friday Agreement with no deal which no British Prime Minister would contemplate.

I'm sure the EU's negotiators were more than happy with BoJo's and indeed your own approach in not wanting an extension as it handed them a great deal on a plate. And we're still paying the EU handsomely too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How was BoJo stiffed by May over Ireland?

Unlike countries cited as our enemy* (eg Iran, North Korea, Russia), the EU is our major trading partner and we share a common border with one of their members, Ireland, with regard to ensuring peace in Northern Ireland and many alliances. So whatever you may feel, we need to have a healthy relationship with the EU for the good of the UK.

An extension would have allowed us time to negotiate veterinary equivalence with the EU and we could have made them look unreasonable if they didn't agree to one. Now our PM just looks weak and acts perfidiously. I hope the situation can be salvaged over a few Cornish beers and some great British seafood.

* although I find such descriptions of little value.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Invoking Article 50 before we had sorted out our negotiating objectives was a clear error on Theresa May's part.

It's a pure fantasy to pretend we could have left without a deal. It would have driven a coach and horses through the Good Friday Agreement and no politician would countenance such a thing.

I think if you spoke to Dawn Sturgess's family (she was poisoned to death by Novichok) and the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe (languishing in an Iranian jail) you would soon find out the reality of your beliefs on which countries are closer to being our enemies than the EU.

With the clock counting down and your reluctance to re-start it, I fear you would have taken us up the same creek as BoJo has, had you been in his shoes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can anyone advise why Von der Leyen is at the G7? She’s not a leader, or a head of state of any nation in the G7?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

no idea but i spent 20 mins swearing at the telly when i saw her:mad:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_and_the_G7



https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi...isations/g7_en

Quote:

The European Union is a unique supranational organisation – not a sovereign Member State – hence the name G7 “Group of Seven”. The EU is therefore a ‘non-enumerated’ member and does not assume the rotating G7 presidency. In 1977, representatives of the then European Community began participating in the London summit. The role has expanded over time, with the EU gradually included in all political discussions on the summit agenda and, from the Ottawa summit (1981) onwards, has taken part in all working sessions.

---------- Post added at 23:46 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------

That’s probably why she went… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Probably the only foreign holiday she'll get ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting (imho) commentary in the Times today.

Basically, foreign leaders don't trust Boris to keep his word, because https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...nson-zgmffxtk2

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

*Respect and trust are missing

*The EU has long experience of bending the rules when it wants to

*Nobody trusts Boris

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good analysis. What goes around comes around. Maybe Seph is right that another leader could sort this out more effectively with the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From yesterday's Metro

https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/10/joe-b...JyqPjZ6bGsEvUM

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1623494324

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have a gut feeling that what Boris actually wants is to pull out of this deal. And he is rather cleverly pulling the public around to that point of view.

It’s what he would have preferred to happen, let’s face it, but the political risk was too high at the time the deal was done.

This won’t change the situation in respect of the NI/Ireland border but it will enable trade from Britain to resume unencumbered. Faced with that threat, the EU might just start to take the need to negotiate on the protocol more seriously and we resolve the matter that way.

A win-win for Boris, whichever way it goes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You’ve hit new heights of idiocy if you think the above will happen.

As has already been said withdrawing/no deal will cause the collapse of the Good Friday agreement and the return of a hard border on the island or Ireland. It will NEVER happen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I remember a heck of a lot of people saying Brexit would never happen, you were possibly one of them :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If you can’t see the difference in severity between the two I might suggest you go and join old boy i

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Old Boy's scenario is unrealistic. A hard border would breach the Good Friday Agreement so that's not on the cards, as mrmistoffelees has explained.
To help unblock the impasse, it would do no harm for BoJo to replace David Frost with someone with a less confrontational approach.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I understand it, and believe me I am not interested in it very much. By the the letter of the agreement checks can be can be enforced. However, for domestic products for domestic consumption the U.K. did not expect checks to be done, they understood they could be, but they did not expect them to be done.

As Chris has pointed out, the EU are just a rules based bureaucracy that is who they are. It’s petty and unnecessary. But the U.K. should have expected this from the EU.

Either way, a solution would be very easy to reach for rational people............do you know any.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wonder if opening a sausage factory in NI would be a good business move at the moment?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where would the meat come from

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Last time I was in NI I noticed they had the odd farm here and there, granted it was a few years ago but I doubt it's changed that much!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If they produced enough i doubt they would transport it from the mother land

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.ufuni.org/farming

There are thousands of local butchers, each making their own sausages. The imports from GB will be things like Cumberland sausages that presumably have to come from a specific region. The big supermarkets will also source produce from GB, such as chilled mince but there's really no need.

The argument is really over standards. GB food standards currently exceed EU requirements. The problem is that Bojo/Frostie refuse to commit to keeping things that way. A commitment to maintain standards would do away with 90% of the checks at a stroke.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

An excellent and renowned butcher. I've dropped in many times when passing through.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Let’s follow this logically

As per chris’s post we all know (yes, even us staunch remainers) that the EU is incredibly bureaucratic.

BUT

We accepted the deal that was offered by the EU because if we didn’t a hard border would have been created which would have broken the GFA agreement

If we break the agreement with the EU and a hard border is implemented that breaks the GFA that’s on the U.K. for failing to adhere not the EU

The EU have no legal requirement to move from their position and if they choose not to adjust then this is only resolved in one of two ways

1. The U.K. implements and obides by the treaty it agreed too (which it becomes
clearer by the day they didn’t have the full picture of what they were agreeing to)

2. The EU softens it’s stance (which is possible but unlikely as what message does that send to other non eu countries)


Any sort of border in Ireland highly increases the chances of a trade deal with the US not occurring

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who exactly would erect this hard border?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No. 3 must be per paddy1's post - the UK commits to maintain veterinary standards and the EU grants us equivalence.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

who erects the border is insignificant compared to why the border was erected.

If both of you think that if the U.K government ignores/withdraws from the treaty and the EU then erect a border that the U.K. won’t be held accountable then you need to think again.

The country was sold a a pig in a poke by the government, yet brexiteers are desperate to blame someone or somebody else for the U.K. governments failings

Whatever happened to oven ready?

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

That would fall under option 2. But then how does that play out with other non EU countries ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not knowledgeable enough in this area to know authoritatively if it would be an issue for the EU and other non-EU countries or not. But the uniqueness of the situation is probably sufficient not to set a precedent. After all, although we talk about being in the European Single Market, for things like medicines it is following UK rules; the EU is not insisting that medicines sold in NI have be approved by the European Medicines Agency.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You could go out there and plant a row of sour grape vines along the border, it might help you with getting over losing the referendum :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wanting to hold the government accountable for its actions isn’t sour grapes

Those vines may be best gifted to Sephi and his perceived EU ‘nastiness’ ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Presumably the UK or EU erecting a wall in NI would be the final remedy. I'm sure the EU scale of escalation is:
- Diplomatic pressure including getting the US on board
- Economic pressure - putting the pressure on big investors like Siemens and AkzoNoble to warn the UK that their investment is threatened by possible sanctions
- Targeted sanctions on British goods and services, introduction of visas etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed, it would be last resort.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't believe that the UK is wanting to pull out of the Protocol, we are just asking for some common sense on its interpretation.

If this is the kind of inflexibility we can expect from the EU, maybe we should think seriously whether this deal with the EU is actually worth it. Many of us saw this coming but we hoped that the EU would demonstrate some intelligence in dealing with the practical issues arising from the new arrangements.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So the U.K. agreed to a legally binding treaty but now we want them to make concessions to us because we’re finding it a bit difficult?

I don’t think it’s the EU that needs to demonstrate its intelligence

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think BoJo only wants to implement the protocol he signed in a limited and specific way. :D

Brexit negotiations will never end. Boris Johnson needs to establish trust with the EU. Hic current boud-mouthing and the threats perpetuated by him and David Frost are proving ineffective. They might work inside the priviliged walls of Eton or the House of Commons but not outside it.

Building strong relationships and trust is key. Unfortunately for BoJo, the G7 summit which could have been a great British triumph and advert for the country has shone a spotlight upon its weaknesses. A change is needed in the UK's approach.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I rather think it's the EU that are finding it difficult, it does sound 'off' when a trade bloc are trying to prevent a UK product from being sold in the UK.

Throw as much legal jargon as you like at it, but the bottom line is the UK should be able to sell it's own products within it's borders :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You mean with this?


---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

Obviously, no one is happy about the situation. I think that you're now realising what others have known for some time - that your Party's Prime Minister signed an imperfect deal. Dreaming about fantasy solutions or slagging off the other side won't solve it. Trust and talk will.

There's no evidence of punishing the UK, that's just playing the victim mode and not an approach a country like the UK historically takes. It's disappointing you want to pull the UK down to such a level.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They can, but it changes when one of those countries in effect in the EU for trade

You know, the changes we agreed to???

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Heck yeah, see how long it takes for N.I. to kick off . . . especially when they suddenly can't 'export' to us (as part of the solution) ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU was not in negotiating mode from the start. They expected the UK to capitulate to all the EU demands. This was highlighted many, many times by politicians of all flavours from within the EU. Remember that the EU is a Legal Body not a Federal Union as yet. Lawyers in the background run it most of the time, supported by translators who have to be meticulous at all times.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed if only we as a country could of somehow been aware of such behaviour at the time. If only we could of had some insider knowledge as to how the EU can operate.

So is it ignorance or stupidity the U.K. government is culpable of ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Many of us were aware of their behaviour and voted accordingly, the ignorance and/or stupidity are possibly confined to those who weren't . . and didn't ;) :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, that’s not what I’m saying. As with everything, the devil is in the detail and we have been attempting to get the EU to understand the practical problems that have been thrown up by the way in which the EU is interpreting the Protocol. We have put forward many ideas, including trusted trader schemes, which have been shown to work effectively, but the EU is having none of it.

They are being awkward, plain and simple.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So we agreed to something we didn’t fully understand? Else surely the government would have known that this would occur?

The EU are playing to the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, I didn’t say that. I said that the problem was with the way the EU was interpreting the Protocol, not the Protocol itself.

Trust you to keep batting for the other side. Macron has said: “Nothing is negotiable. Everything is applicable.”

In other words, his mind is made up and if the Northern Irish people (whom he does not regard as U.K. citizens!) suffer food shortages as a result of the EU interpretation of the Protocol, he doesn’t give two hoots.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The problem is it is not the letter of the law.

Link

There cannot be "letter of the law" where ambiguity exists.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, I am defending this.


They agreed to this
We agreed to this

The country wanted out, this is out

---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------


Is Macron speaking from a position of authority? Or is he being a lone voice ?

I’m not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately it’s us who agreed the terms with the EU.

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

Where is the ambiguity that states chilled meat products cannot be imported into the EU market from non EU countries ? Seems pretty unambiguous ?

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

Sephi/OB

Why hasn’t Boris walked or threatened to walk away from the treaty ?

He threatened to walk away enough times during the negotiations

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

To add,

sephi/ob (amongst many others) clearly stated that we could manage just fine without the EU. Yet here we are a little over six months in and they’re demanding the EU’s assistance in solving a problem of our own creation.

How deliciously ironic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are just not getting it, are you? It was with reluctance that we signed up to the protocol, but, yes, we signed it. As with any new process, documents have to be interpreted.

The problem is that the EU will only interpret this in a way that maximises our problems and takes no account of the problems this causes in NI.

There are straight forward ways that the document as written can be made to work, but the EU is being its normal inflexible and spiteful self.

And you wonder why Brexiteers wanted out.

How can you defend this? That’s why I say you are batting for the other side. As ever.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Er - except that we are not complaining that we cannot export chilled meat products to the EU. Are you trying to divert the argument or misrepresent what those who disagree with you have said?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sorry, why did we have to sign it ? That’s a complete u turn OB for you from your earlier comments.

Perhaps you could advise why these documents weren’t ‘interpreted’ before they were signed ? Otherwise you’ve basically admitted that the U.K. government didn’t fully understand what they were agreeing too

This is not an us vs them situation.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------


You really are a loon, I hope you get the help you need

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I said, the problem is the interpretation and the inflexibility of the EU.

The PM went with the deal because that’s what he was being pressured to do, but as the EU continue to demonstrate how unreasonable they can be, they will be making the case for us that we should give notice to terminate the Brexit deal.

It’s not the end of the world, and at least it will enable us to make more effective use of our time. In the meantime, we will look elsewhere for as many of our imports as is practical, and this will not be good news for the EU. But you know what, tough!

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

Sorry, mate but it’s not me that’s the loon. As I have said more than once now, the problem is not so much the document as its interpretation. You may want to look that word up if you don’t understand what it means.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"Pressured"?

He rushed the Agreement through the HoC in 16 hours - he’s the one who put the pressure on.

The EU offered an Extension -BoJo said "no".

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-f...iod-extension/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which chilled meat products are being imported into the EU Market?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They were trying to sit on the fence, and we all know that just leads to splinters in the cheeks.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, pressured. Have you forgotten all the angst expressed by the opposition about getting a deal? ‘No deal’ was presented as being nothing short of apocalyptic.

Most Brexiteers wanted a ‘no deal’ and now everyone knows why.

You know very well why there was no appetite for an extension. I’m a little surprised that you have forgotten already (which, of course, you haven’t).

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Have you missed the point that the issue is not what we have signed up for, but a reasonable interpretation of the Protocol’s provisions?