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jonbxx 10-10-2019 09:51
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36013451)
So what are the NEW developments if any?
There's the Brexit Readiness Report that came out on Tuesday which seems to roll up the No Deal preparations and policies. Here's the link - https://assets.publishing.service.go...ness_paper.PDF

Seems fun! Some highlights I have seen so far;
  • We would trade on WTO rules with the EU apart from the Republic of Ireland where there will be no tariffs. Expect to see suddenly a hell of a lot of goods going through the border!
  • The UK has dropped the proposed tariff on HGVs from 22% to 10%
  • British living in Spain will continue to have access to healthcare until the end of 2020
  • Motorists may require an International Driving Permit and insurance Green Card to drive in the EU. They will also need a 'GB' sticker even if they have an EU number plate
  • GPDR will come into British law to allow information flow between the UK and EU
  • It will no longer be legal to select employees with EU/EEA/Swiss qualifications over employees with other nations qualifications for jobs under WTO rules
  • EU registered medicines, medical devices and aircraft will be accepted in the UK without further registration. Cars will not and will require UK type approval
  • The UK will lose access to the EU animal tracing system along with the Rapid Alert System
  • No sanitary checks will be applied to imports of food in to the UK (!)

It's a big document!

nomadking 10-10-2019 11:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
The Government has developed a new Import of Products, Animals, Food and Feed System (IPAFFS) to replace the EU’s Trade Control and Export (TRACES) system. This digital service would monitor the control and import of animals, animal related products and high risk food and feed from the EU and rest-of-world countries. Further information on the new customs and regulatory requirements for agrifood products can be found in the industry chapter (see chapter 6 on industry).
Quote:
The UK Temporary Tariff (TTR) policy will not apply to goods crossing from Ireland into Northern Ireland, meaning there will be no new tariffs applied to anything which crosses the border – provided that the goods have not been diverted via Ireland in order to avoid UK customs duty that would otherwise have been payable.
Only EU goods could get away with it, so no real change to now. There isn't the France to Ireland capacity to bypass Dover etc in a big way.



Quote:
The UK and Spain have each taken steps to ensure that people travelling to each country can continue to access healthcare as they do now until at least 31 December 2020.
So that's a bilateral agreement with Spain, that works both ways.



Quote:
The Government has decided that direct imports to the UK of animals, animal products, high risk food and feed not of animal origin, and regulated plants that are in circulation in the EU single market will not be subject to sanitary or phytosanitary border checks and will not need to enter through a Border Inspection Post (for products of animal origin) or a designated point of entry (for high-risk food and feed not of animal origin). The UK will not require products of animal origin to be accompanied by a health certificate.
They've passed EU rules already. No different to currently, what would happen under a customs union or if we remained.

Quote:
• The UK has already signed bilateral agreements with Spain, Portugal and Luxembourg to guarantee local voting and candidacy rights for UK nationals in those states. Together, these three voting rights treaties protect the rights of a third of UK nationals living in EU Member States.
It seems deals can be done, as long as it doesn't involve the EU or Ireland.:rolleyes:

ntluser 10-10-2019 11:30
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
It's a pity that the EU and Ireland could not turn the Common Travel Area into the Common Trading Area, allowing goods to pass between Ireland & Ulster.

Hugh 10-10-2019 13:40
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013476)
Only EU goods could get away with it, so no real change to now. There isn't the France to Ireland capacity to bypass Dover etc in a big way.



So that's a bilateral agreement with Spain, that works both ways.



They've passed EU rules already. No different to currently, what would happen under a customs union or if we remained.

Quote:
The UK has already signed bilateral agreements with Spain, Portugal and Luxembourg to guarantee local voting and candidacy rights for UK nationals in those states. Together, these three voting rights treaties protect the rights of a third of UK nationals living in EU Member States.
It seems deals can be done, as long as it doesn't involve the EU or Ireland.:rolleyes:
The three countries mentioned are in the EU, and Spain and Ireland have interim agreement re health care.

Quote:
The UK and Spain have also taken steps to ensure that people living in each country can continue to access healthcare as they do now until at least 31 December 2020.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49989227
Quote:
The government has made it very clear that it wants EHIC to continue, deal or no deal.

But so far, only Spain has agreed to that.

Portugal says it won't carry on with the scheme if there is a no-deal Brexit. But it has passed a law saying that UK tourists can still get healthcare as before, for now, if they show their passport.
There is a similar agreement with Ireland, too.

pip08456 10-10-2019 13:45
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013493)
The three countries mentioned are in the EU.
Of course they are, I think you'll find that nomadking was refering to the fact that bi-lateral arrangements can be made without going through the EU.

jonbxx 10-10-2019 14:26
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
EHIC falls under the EEA (Switzerland is included in the EHIC scheme too), not the EU so EU laws and treaties don't apply so each country can do what they like in terms of deals.

I would be very surprised if we stay in the EEA post leaving the EU as membership includes goodies like freedom of movement, the single market, acceptance of some EU laws and the CJEU, and a financial contribution.

Interestingly, it is unclear whether leaving the EU means that we will leave the EEA which is a different process (Article 127 of the EEA Treaty) It is assumedwe will but it's not explicit.

pip08456 10-10-2019 14:48
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36013497)
EHIC falls under the EEA (Switzerland is included in the EHIC scheme too), not the EU so EU laws and treaties don't apply so each country can do what they like in terms of deals.

I would be very surprised if we stay in the EEA post leaving the EU as membership includes goodies like freedom of movement, the single market, acceptance of some EU laws and the CJEU, and a financial contribution.

Interestingly, it is unclear whether leaving the EU means that we will leave the EEA which is a different process (Article 127 of the EEA Treaty) It is assumedwe will but it's not explicit.
Article 126 of the EEA make clear we would automatically leave.

Quote:
Article 126

1. The Agreement shall apply to the territories to which the Treaty establishing the European Economic Community and the Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community is applied and under the conditions laid down in those Treaties, and to the territories of the Republic of Austria, the Republic of Finland, the Republic of Iceland, the Principality of Liechtenstein, the Kingdom of Norway, the Kingdom of Sweden and the Swiss Confederation.

Link

papa smurf 10-10-2019 16:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Brexit LIVE: Breakthrough in talks as Boris and Varadkar agree on 'pathway' to EU deal

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...al-backstop-eu

one step closer to a deal?

nomadking 10-10-2019 16:28
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013503)
Brexit LIVE: Breakthrough in talks as Boris and Varadkar agree on 'pathway' to EU deal

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...al-backstop-eu

one step closer to a deal?
The UK Parliament won't approve it. They won't be able to resist continuing to make trouble with a capital T.

Damien 10-10-2019 16:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Developments:
https://twitter.com/PatLeahyIT/statu...17110707593218

Quote:
So am hearing that there has been very significant movement from British side on the customs issue in the Johnson-Varadkar talks. Not clear on detail and not clear what concessions expected in return. But if what I hear is correct, it changes the picture substantially

papa smurf 10-10-2019 17:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013504)
The UK Parliament won't approve it. They won't be able to resist continuing to make trouble with a capital T.
He'll probably just send the deal straight to the Scottish court and bypass parliament just like the SNP have.

Mr K 10-10-2019 17:10
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Bozzas made a big concession on customs, Brexiteers/DUP won't be happy....

Is Mays deal back again???

Damien 10-10-2019 17:30
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I don't know. I think a version of May's deal might pass because:

1) They'll present it as a concession he has achieved. He'll certainly have something and while it won't be groundbreaking so long as it is still some sort of concession it will give MPs looking for a reason to vote for it that reason. A ladder to climb down.

2) No Deal is very close.

3) The coming election will throw things up in the air. Do they want to give Boris Johnson the gift of voting against the deal?

Mr K 10-10-2019 17:32
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
But Boris voted against Mays deal :D :D. Wonder if May will vote against now ;)

Carth 10-10-2019 19:07
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013512)
Bozzas made a big concession on customs, Brexiteers/DUP won't be happy....

Is Mays deal back again???
I've seen nothing that really mentions what concessions were made, only that they've had talks that were . . . "very positive and very promising"

Nothing new to see . . . move along :D

jfman 10-10-2019 19:12
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
An effective border in the Irish Sea would be amazing.

Mr K 10-10-2019 19:35
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36013525)
I've seen nothing that really mentions what concessions were made, only that they've had talks that were . . . "very positive and very promising"

Nothing new to see . . . move along :D
You sound like you're trying to convince yourself ;)

Carth 10-10-2019 19:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013528)
You sound like you're trying to convince yourself ;)
:D I don't need convincing about anything, and I certainly don't need to blindly follow or take as gospel everything posted on Twitter, Facebook etc.

No offence intended to those that feel the need though ;)

nomadking 10-10-2019 19:55
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Link

Quote:
He said he was now "convinced" the UK wants an agreement, saying: "I do see a pathway towards an agreement in the coming weeks."
However, there were still issues over the issue of "consent and democracy" and ensuring there is no customs border.
Nice to know the the EU has such a big problem with "consent and democracy". Says it all really.

Hugh 10-10-2019 20:30
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013531)
Link

Quote:
He said he was now "convinced" the UK wants an agreement, saying: "I do see a pathway towards an agreement in the coming weeks."
However, there were still issues over the issue of "consent and democracy" and ensuring there is no customs border.
Nice to know the the EU has such a big problem with "consent and democracy". Says it all really.

I believe he meant there needed to be appropriate consent and democracy (such as not being vetoed by the DUP or SF) - interesting that you read it another way...

nomadking 10-10-2019 21:05
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013533)
I believe he meant there needed to be appropriate consent and democracy (such as not being vetoed by the DUP or SF) - interesting that you read it another way...
So what could the "issue" be that the EU have with "consent and democracy"? A super-majority is not consent and is not democratic. Yet again, where else in the world and in what other context would that be acceptable? Scottish devolution? Scottish Independence? Welsh devolution? Welsh Independence? Reunification of Ireland? How about Remaining in the EU requiring a super-majority?

ianch99 10-10-2019 22:15
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013537)
So what could the "issue" be that the EU have with "consent and democracy"? A super-majority is not consent and is not democratic. Yet again, where else in the world and in what other context would that be acceptable? Scottish devolution? Scottish Independence? Welsh devolution? Welsh Independence? Reunification of Ireland? How about Remaining in the EU requiring a super-majority?
Not too sure what planet you are on. A super majority is the *only* democratic solution when deciding macro economic & social decisions.

nomadking 10-10-2019 22:35
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36013543)
Not too sure what planet you are on. A super majority is the *only* democratic solution when deciding macro economic & social decisions.
Link

Quote:
THE Scottish Government has ruled out setting a higher threshold for a second independence referendum, claiming it would leave democracy in “tatters”.
Constitutional Relations Secretary Michael Russell also attacked the media for proposing the idea of a higher than 50 per cent threshold for Indyref2 to produce a stable result.
He told MSPs moving away from a simple majority could result in a “cheat”, citing the 1979 devolution referendum that did not pass because too few voters backed it.
...
Ms White said the Venice Commission on referendums, the advisory body on the Council of Europe, had warned a super-majority could encourage people not to vote.
...
“The Venice Commission is entirely clear. A turnout quorum, threshold or minimum percentage is wrong because it assimilates voters who abstain with those who vote No, and an approval quorum, which is approval by a minimum percentage of registered voters risks involving a difficult political situation.
Of course it all depends on the question. With the NI situation the super-majority is intended to force the backstop for all eternity. If you asked the question "do you agree with the backstop" or "do you want to continue with the backstop", it might give a different answer. Then you can bring the issue of "consent" into it. Constant attacks and threats by the IRA and their supporters, is NOT consent.

Hugh 11-10-2019 08:04
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
The Venice Commission Code of Good Practice on Referendums also states
Quote:
Effects of referendums

a. The effects of legally binding or consultative referendums must be clearly specified in the Constitution or by law.
b. Referendums on questions of principle or other generally-worded proposals should preferably not be binding. If they are binding, the subsequent procedure should be laid down in specific rules
Quote:
In the event of a failure to abide by the statutory requirements, for instance if the cap on spending is exceeded by a significant margin, the vote may be annulled.

ianch99 11-10-2019 08:57
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013544)
Link

Of course it all depends on the question. With the NI situation the super-majority is intended to force the backstop for all eternity. If you asked the question "do you agree with the backstop" or "do you want to continue with the backstop", it might give a different answer. Then you can bring the issue of "consent" into it. Constant attacks and threats by the IRA and their supporters, is NOT consent.
My position remains: super majorities combined with minimum turnouts are the only objective and apolitical solution to macro socioeconomic plebiscites.

However, there are two issues to contend with here:

1. the people calling for or objecting to a specific proposal have vesting interests. Their interests, not the majority of the population's

2. the UK is rubbish at referendums

Add the two together and we get where we are ..

papa smurf 11-10-2019 16:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Brexit is on! Government signs £86m freight contracts bring medicines into UK for no deal


THE GOVERNMENT has signed contracts with four ferry operators to provide freight capacity to transport medicines in the event of a no-deal Brexit.




glad to see preparations are going ahead.

Pierre 11-10-2019 16:44
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Who knows what it is, but it is last chance saloon. If he has the DUP on board it may get through.

If it’s a decent deal and Corbyn goes against it he loses all credibility ( not that he has any).

I hope it is significantly improved upon Mays deal, all it really needs to be is no backstop and no ECJ oversight in our affairs and it will probably fly.

Chris 11-10-2019 16:54
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
11th hour brinkmanship is the EU’s M.O. It was always going to go down to the wire and I suspect all they really needed was to understand that the wire is now truly upon them.

Mr K 11-10-2019 17:37
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36013579)
11th hour brinkmanship is the EU’s M.O. It was always going to go down to the wire and I suspect all they really needed was to understand that the wire is now truly upon them.
Urrmm looks like it's the other way round, they rejected his latest plan, blinking Boris as he realises any deal is better than no deal.

Any they're entering the 'tunnel', how exciting ;)

jfman 11-10-2019 17:41
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013583)
Urrmm looks like it's the other way round, they rejected his latest plan, blinking Boris as he realises any deal is better than no deal.

Any they're entering the 'tunnel', how exciting ;)
Yep. Can Johnson win an election with scandal after scandal. The pole dancer, Cummings advising big pharma. Time to cut and run for the Brexiteers at the top of Government.

Mr K 11-10-2019 18:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013584)
Yep. Can Johnson win an election with scandal after scandal. The pole dancer, Cummings advising big pharma. Time to cut and run for the Brexiteers at the top of Government.
Well, yes it always was about Boris. He never was a Brexiteer, took ages to make his mind up which side he was, and wrote a pro Remain article for the Times, then came out for Leave the next day !

Anything to be PM, anything to win the next election. Brexit was just a vehicle. Looks like he's leaving NI in the Customs Union, the DUP will be pleased. He's as 'faithful' in public as he is in private. Got to admire the old scrote, in the same way you admire Dick Turpin...

Pierre 11-10-2019 18:23
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013585)
Looks like he's leaving NI in the Customs Union, the DUP will be pleased.
I’d be amazed if that was the case, as the DUP would not vote for it, and without them it is extremely unlikely it would get through.

He may be many things, but stupid isn’t one of them and politically savvy is. So I would expect he has possibly found a way to not do that.

jfman 11-10-2019 18:38
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
He’s not stupid and is politically savvy? Not sure I’d agree with those. A liar and an opportunist, who perhaps doesn’t believe in anything, yes.

Pierre 11-10-2019 19:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013588)
He’s not stupid and is politically savvy? Not sure I’d agree with those.
Your prerogative, but it’s a foolish person that underestimates him, in my opinion. You don’t get to be Mayor of London and Prime Minister by luck, opportunism and lies


Quote:
A liar and an opportunist,
That is just typical emotive rhetoric to try and negate the obvious facts that he is a well educated, experienced, political force.

Much in the same way all those that voted Brexit were racist and thick

Maggy 11-10-2019 21:05
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36013596)
Your prerogative, but it’s a foolish person that underestimates him, in my opinion. You don’t get to be Mayor of London and Prime Minister by luck, opportunism and lies
But you can become a US president that way..;)

Mr K 11-10-2019 21:26
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36013605)
But you can become a US president that way..;)
:D maybe he shouldn't have dropped his dual citizenship, he'd be a shoe in for President!

Chris 11-10-2019 21:53
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
1 Attachment(s)
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1570827173

Mr K 11-10-2019 21:55
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Hated Topics, always the last left in the selection box.

OLD BOY 12-10-2019 19:53
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36013596)
Your prerogative, but it’s a foolish person that underestimates him, in my opinion. You don’t get to be Mayor of London and Prime Minister by luck, opportunism and lies
I agree, Pierre. People under-rated Churchill until he took on the Nazis and won the war for us.

Just to be clear, I am not equating the EU to Hitler. What I am saying is that sometimes a nation becomes completely demoralised and despondent and it is the Boris-type characters that can shake us of out of it.

This is why the Left is so afraid of him, they know he knows what to do, which is not what they want at all.

Getting this deal will ensure that all the Left wing rhetoric will be shown for what it is.

---------- Post added at 19:53 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013614)
Hated Topics, always the last left in the selection box.
Yes, Mr K, but we all know how perverse you actually are!

I'm a Mars bar fan myself, but I would certainly never knock a nice Topic (Marathon to us oldies!).

Hugh 12-10-2019 20:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Marathon bars are now called Snickers - Topic bars have been around since the Sixties.

Boris is not, and never will be, a Churchill - you demean the memory of a great man by equating him with a proven liar, adulterer, and philanderer.

btw, not to undervalue Churchill and Britain’s contribution to the Allied War effort, but he did not "win the war for us" - Britain won the war as part of an Alliance of nations, and Russia had a major part in taking on the Nazis, bogging them down on the Eastern Front, draining men and materiel from the Western Front.

OLD BOY 12-10-2019 20:23
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013666)
Marathon bars are now called Snickers - Topic bars have been around since the Sixties.

Boris is not, and never will be, a Churchill - you demean the memory of a great man by equating him with a proven liar, adulterer, and philanderer.

btw, not to undervalue Churchill and Britain’s contribution to the Allied War effort, but he did not "win the war for us" - Britain won the war as part of an Alliance of nations, and Russia had a major part in taking on the Nazis, bogging them down on the Eastern Front, draining men and materiel from the Western Front.
Whoops! Yes, you are right about the Snickers! I like them too, by the way!

I do acknowledge your pulling me up on the Churchill comparison, but you know, I have heard quite a few people making exactly the same comparison. Churchill was not regarded as a safe pair of hands until, faced with Hitler's aggression, he was the only person who seemed to know what to do.

Say what you like about Boris, who of course is a much younger man than Churchill was when he took on Hitler, but at least he knows how to take Brexit by the horns, and I have absolutely no doubt that he will deliver Brexit. Who else could succeed against all the odds?

As for adultery and the like, I would like to point out, without accusing anyone of anything, that people were aloud to get away with far much more in those days than they can now. Politicians are put under the spotlight now like anything before - we have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Your other point about how the war was won I don't disagree with, but surely even you would acknowledge that the person who led the charge was Churchill. The US only became involved after Pearl Harbour, and Russia after the Nazis invaded. It was Churchill who started the resistance.

papa smurf 12-10-2019 20:25
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013666)
Marathon bars are now called Snickers - Topic bars have been around since the Sixties.

Boris is not, and never will be, a Churchill - you demean the memory of a great man by equating him with a proven liar, adulterer, and philanderer.

btw, not to undervalue Churchill and Britain’s contribution to the Allied War effort, but he did not "win the war for us" - Britain won the war as part of an Alliance of nations, and Russia had a major part in taking on the Nazis, bogging them down on the Eastern Front, draining men and materiel from the Western Front.
No nothing like him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

denphone 12-10-2019 20:29
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013669)
Churchill won the war with the great help of others but lost the peace.

https://www.pbsamerica.co.uk/series/...ing-the-peace/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...ction_01.shtml

OLD BOY 12-10-2019 20:34
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013669)
Yes, good find, papa. He was a great man, but by no means whiter than white. Who is?

---------- Post added at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36013671)
Churchill won the war with the great help of others but lost the peace.

https://www.pbsamerica.co.uk/series/...ing-the-peace/
You are talking about winning. That was not the point I made. I said that Churchill led the charge. He was absolutely alone until the US joined us. Nobody doubts that it would have been difficult to win the war had circumstances turned out differently.

I don't understand the point you made about failing to win the peace. His legacy secured peace in Europe although the EU may wish to spin it differently to take the credit!

jfman 12-10-2019 21:10
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013666)
Marathon bars are now called Snickers - Topic bars have been around since the Sixties.

Boris is not, and never will be, a Churchill - you demean the memory of a great man by equating him with a proven liar, adulterer, and philanderer.

btw, not to undervalue Churchill and Britain’s contribution to the Allied War effort, but he did not "win the war for us" - Britain won the war as part of an Alliance of nations, and Russia had a major part in taking on the Nazis, bogging them down on the Eastern Front, draining men and materiel from the Western Front.
And America made us pay a heavy price for it. The end of Empire and our place as a superpower. A financial system pegged to the dollar.

Yet, they're the ones we are pinning our hopes on!

Anyway I'll leave the Brexiteers to their World War 2 nostalgia for the evening...

nomadking 12-10-2019 21:21
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Any peace in Europe was down to a combination of WW2 happening and general change in Western societies. By the 1960s, no matter what, it was unlikely for there to be a Western European war.

Pierre 12-10-2019 22:12
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013666)
, not to undervalue Churchill and Britain’s contribution to the Allied War effort, but he did not "win the war for us" - Britain won the war as part of an Alliance of nations, and Russia had a major part in taking on the Nazis, bogging them down on the Eastern Front, draining men and materiel from the Western Front.
Of course Churchill didn’t win the war for us, he knew the one and only way we could win the war was to have the Americans join. That was his one and only plan. He got it by complete luck. The Russians had been demanding a second Western front be established for years before we finally got around to the Normandy landings.

What Churchill did was keep us in the game, he oversaw a successful North Africa campaign, showed to the USA we were a viable force to partner with.

Roosevelt and Churchill had been looking for a viable reason for the USA to enter for years, god bless Yamamoto.

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013676)
And America made us pay a heavy price for it. The end of Empire and our place as a superpower. A financial system pegged to the dollar.
It was over before WWII, WWI is what bankrupted the nation, and what the USA profited from that set them up for the next century.

Hugh 13-10-2019 01:41
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36013669)
Proven liar, adulterer, and philander - Churchill was none of these things.

Nice try at besmirching our wartime leader, though - I thought you were a supporter of his...

OLD BOY 13-10-2019 02:51
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013684)
Proven liar, adulterer, and philander - Churchill was none of these things.

Nice try at besmirching our wartime leader, though - I thought you were a supporter of his...
If he was, we would not know about it. Everything is public now, it wasn't then. How do you think Lloyd George would go down these days?

Can we not stick to the policies instead of character assassination? Oh, sorry, that was your whole argument....

papa smurf 13-10-2019 09:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36013684)
Proven liar, adulterer, and philander - Churchill was none of these things.

Nice try at besmirching our wartime leader, though - I thought you were a supporter of his...
It is considered impolite to shoot the messenger :nono:,no one is besmirching anyone just posting facts about Churchill,i wasn't even born when ww2 was being fought so i can't claim to be a supporter of Churchill or any other person in that era as i didn't exist.
Nice try turning it onto me but no coconut this time.

Maggy 13-10-2019 09:16
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Get back on topic...

TheDaddy 13-10-2019 17:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36012969)
I just don't care anymore..I'm sick of the whole boiling bunch in the HoC..
That's probably how the vast majority of this country feel but we're left in limbo because a few ideologues and zealots refuse to compromise or accept anything other than their own particular vision of leaving or remaining and absolutely nothing else will do, to hell with the consequences, health, housing, jobs can all stagnate in the mean time, a pox on all their houses imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013520)
But Boris voted against Mays deal :D :D. Wonder if May will vote against now ;)
He also voted for it iirc...

nomadking 13-10-2019 17:47
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36013767)
That's probably how the vast majority of this country feel but we're left in limbo because a few ideologues and zealots refuse to compromise or accept anything other than their own particular vision of leaving or remaining and absolutely nothing else will do, to hell with the consequences, health, housing, jobs can all stagnate in the mean time, a pox on all their houses imo



He also voted for it iirc...
So what compromises have the the EU or Remainers ever accepted or even suggested?:confused: It's all been their way or else, from them.

Pierre 13-10-2019 19:48
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36013767)
That's probably how the vast majority of this country feel but we're left in limbo because a few ideologues and zealots refuse to compromise or accept anything other than their own particular vision of leaving or remaining and absolutely nothing else will do, to hell with the consequences, health, housing, jobs can all stagnate in the mean time, a pox on all their houses imo
MPs of all colours guilty of that, Corbyn being the worst.

1andrew1 13-10-2019 21:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013768)
So what compromises have the the EU or Remainers ever accepted or even suggested?:confused: It's all been their way or else, from them.
The EU suggested an Ireland-only backstop. Theresa May requested it be extended to the UK. It was quite a compromise for the EU to extend it.

nomadking 13-10-2019 21:29
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36013778)
The EU suggested an Ireland-only backstop. Theresa May requested it be extended to the UK. It was quite a compromise for the EU to extend it.
And that's your idea of a compromise?:rolleyes: It just extends the EU's sphere of influence.

1andrew1 13-10-2019 21:34
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013779)
And that's your idea of a compromise?:rolleyes: It just extends the EU's sphere of influence.
It's not my idea of a compromise, it is a compromise.

nomadking 13-10-2019 21:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36013780)
It's not my idea of a compromise, it is a compromise.
Being handed more than you asked for, is anything but a compromise.

1andrew1 13-10-2019 22:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013782)
Being handed more than you asked for, is anything but a compromise.
To give the terms that it gave NI to the whole of the UK was a compromise as it gave the whole of the UK an advantage compared to being a non-member. And the EU has extended the date that the UK leaves. It could have insisted on a 31/3 withdrawal date.

TheDaddy 13-10-2019 22:06
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013768)
So what compromises have the the EU or Remainers ever accepted or even suggested?:confused: It's all been their way or else, from them.
Give it a rest, I think the majority of us are sick of the them and us bs, I know I am. can't believe I've been sucked back into this thread, think I'll unsubscribe and leave you to it. Was also thinking of suggesting the fanatics in parliament just duel it out, it's the only way to settle it for cerrain and as an added bonus it'll save us all getting very bored.

1andrew1 14-10-2019 21:19
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Good to see that the Queen is wise enough not to state definitively that the UK is leaving on 31 October. Sensibly, she just stated “My government’s priority has always been to secure the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union on October 31.”

pip08456 14-10-2019 21:33
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36013919)
Good to see that the Queen is wise enough not to state definitively that the UK is leaving on 31 October. Sensibly, she just stated “My government’s priority has always been to secure the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union on October 31.”
That would not be in the Queen's remit.

Mr K 15-10-2019 08:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36013923)
That would not be in the Queen's remit.
More moderate than other language that's been used suspect the Palace had an input. Saying you will leave on 31/10 implies breaking the law, saying it's a 'priority' takes it down a peg.

Does seem he is desperate to leave on 31/10 no matter what concessions it takes. It's all about Boris and the next election, not Brexit. What's laughable are the Brexiteers saying they will now support, not knowing what all those concessions are, and having voted against similar proposals from TM! Seems they've realised that any deal is better than no deal after all. Still leaves us worse off than we are now, but common sense left the debate long ago.

papa smurf 15-10-2019 09:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36013949)
More moderate than other language that's been used suspect the Palace had an input. Saying you will leave on 31/10 implies breaking the law, saying it's a 'priority' takes it down a peg.

Does seem he is desperate to leave on 31/10 no matter what concessions it takes. It's all about Boris and the next election, not Brexit. What's laughable are the Brexiteers saying they will now support, not knowing what all those concessions are, and having voted against similar proposals from TM! Seems they've realised that any deal is better than no deal after all. Still leaves us worse off than we are now, but common sense left the debate long ago.
It says leaving on the 31/10 takes priority over a deal to me.

Sephiroth 15-10-2019 19:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Look how quiet this thread's gone - even while they are trying to get the legal text of an agreement done this evening.

pip08456 15-10-2019 19:15
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014005)
Look how quiet this thread's gone - even while they are trying to get the legal text of an agreement done this evening.
I noticed that too Seph.

denphone 15-10-2019 19:24
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36014006)
I noticed that too Seph.
l always say one must not run before one can walk pip.;)

Mr K 15-10-2019 19:42
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
If it's as rumoured that Bozza has accepted a border in the Irish sea, then that's a EU proposal that even TM rejected . He's succeeded in getting a worse deal than the one he voted against !

Sephiroth 15-10-2019 20:03
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36014015)
If it's as rumoured that Bozza has accepted a border in the Irish sea, then that's a EU proposal that even TM rejected . He's succeeded in getting a worse deal than the one he voted against !
Have you got anything constructive to say? Like it's a last chance for Parliament to get its act together and deliver the Referendum result?

Mr K 15-10-2019 20:09
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014019)
Have you got anything constructive to say? Like it's a last chance for Parliament to get its act together and deliver the Referendum result?
Seems you've just realised that Bozza has done you up like a (U)kipper over Brexit :D

As for something constructive, how about the public having a final say over any closed door deal he does come up with ? Be nice to know what we're actually voting for, for a change.

papa smurf 15-10-2019 20:11
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36014021)
Seems you've just realised that Bozza has done you up like a (U)kipper over Brexit :D

As for something constructive, how about the public having a final say over any closed door deal he does come up with ? Be nice to know what we're actually voting for, for a change.
You wouldn't know what you were voting for.

nomadking 15-10-2019 20:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36014015)
If it's as rumoured that Bozza has accepted a border in the Irish sea, then that's a EU proposal that even TM rejected . He's succeeded in getting a worse deal than the one he voted against !
How was May's plan of handing over control of more of the UK, ie GB as well as NI, for all eternity, a better "deal"?


Where else in the world is a non-EU country expected to collect tariffs on behalf of the EU? Is the US expected to? Is China expected to? Is the EU going to reciprocate and collect tariffs on behalf of the UK, regardless of where the goods end up? Who is going to pay for all the extra costs? The EU currently "pays" individual EU countries for collecting EU tariffs. Will that be extended?

Damien 15-10-2019 20:18
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
So we're heading for a deal with the 'not a backstop' backstop in the Irish Sea eh?

Mr K 15-10-2019 20:21
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014024)
So we're heading for a deal with the 'not a backstop' backstop in the Irish Sea eh?
Suggest we call it a 'fail safe' ;)

Hugh 15-10-2019 20:30
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014005)
Look how quiet this thread's gone - even while they are trying to get the legal text of an agreement done this evening.
Well, it’s for new developments, and there haven’t been any - just rumours and hearsay.

jfman 15-10-2019 20:39
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014024)
So we're heading for a deal with the 'not a backstop' backstop in the Irish Sea eh?
It’s all very exciting.

Sephiroth 15-10-2019 20:41
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014028)
Well, it’s for new developments, and there haven’t been any - just rumours and hearsay.
That's not stopped anyone before. Of course it's a development. Barnier has spoken for starters.

Damien 15-10-2019 21:24
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014033)
That's not stopped anyone before. Of course it's a development. Barnier has spoken for starters.
The thread went quite for a few hours during the day, it's not unusual. Stuff didn't pick up until late afternoon when the rumours of a deal came out.

Sephiroth 15-10-2019 21:31
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36014039)
The thread went quite for a few hours during the day, it's not unusual. Stuff didn't pick up until late afternoon when the rumours of a deal came out.
More likely peops on this thread have Brexit fatigue unless sufficiently provoked.

jfman 15-10-2019 21:48
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36014041)
More likely peops on this thread have Brexit fatigue unless sufficiently provoked.
That summarises this thread well. :D

Mr K 16-10-2019 08:43
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Back stop to be 'rebranded' and the DUP bought off with a few billion. Sounds like a masterplan !
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...51825?mode=amp

OLD BOY 16-10-2019 09:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36014021)
Seems you've just realised that Bozza has done you up like a (U)kipper over Brexit :D

As for something constructive, how about the public having a final say over any closed door deal he does come up with ? Be nice to know what we're actually voting for, for a change.
We've already voted to leave, man. It's up to the politicians to implement it.

Hugh 16-10-2019 09:52
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36014060)
We've already voted to leave, man. It's up to the politicians to implement it.
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.

Mythica 16-10-2019 13:54
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
An online poll on Facebook by a paper for my area was posted yesterday with 42k votes has remain at 67% and leave at 33%. Seems interesting.

denphone 16-10-2019 14:16
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36014084)
An online poll on Facebook by a paper for my area was posted yesterday with 42k votes has remain at 67% and leave at 33%. Seems interesting.
First question to ask what area is it in and then the next question is what questions did they ask in the poll and how were those questions phrased.

jfman 16-10-2019 14:31
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.
We didn't fight two world wars to not be better off!

papa smurf 16-10-2019 14:40
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014087)
We didn't fight two world wars to not be better off!
You must be old to have fought in 2 world wars.

jfman 16-10-2019 14:49
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36014088)
You must be old to have fought in 2 world wars.
If the xeonophobic Vote Leave campaign can invoke "we" then so can I, despite never holding a rifle.

OLD BOY 16-10-2019 14:50
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.
What we voted for was to leave. Richer or poorer did not come into it.

Having said that, I am as certain as can be that prosperity lies in the route we have taken, to grasp more opportunities from around the world.

And once again, trade with the EU will not cease just because we are not part of that organisation. That seems to be the worry amongst many remainers - that EU imports and exports will dry up after Brexit. They won't, of course, we are likely to be pretty much the same as now. More trade with the rest of the world will benefit us, and this is the missing link in those damning forecasts of our future financial wellbeing.

jfman 16-10-2019 14:51
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Laughable optimism in the face of all the facts from Old Boy. A regurgitation of previous points so I won't address any specifically.

Mythica 16-10-2019 15:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014086)
First question to ask what area is it in and then the next question is what questions did they ask in the poll and how were those questions phrased.
Teesside area, North East England.

"If you could decide again on Brexit, how would you vote?

Let us know below if your vote has changed."

denphone 16-10-2019 15:08
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36014092)
Teesside area, North East England.

"If you could decide again on Brexit, how would you vote?

Let us know below if your vote has changed."
Thanks for that Mythica as Teeside voted overwhelmingly to come out of Europe so that poll is the exact opposite of what they voted for.

Mythica 16-10-2019 15:20
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36014094)
Thanks for that Mythica as Teeside voted overwhelmingly to come out of Europe so that poll is the exact opposite of what they voted for.
Yes, this is why I thought it was very interesting. I know in the grand scheme of things 42k isn't a lot of people but it's a lot for a poll that was posted last night.

spiderplant 16-10-2019 16:01
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 36014092)
"Let us know below if your vote has changed."
So we have no idea how many people's vote hasn't changed? What a useless poll.

Pierre 16-10-2019 16:11
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
No one voted to be worse off.
Nobody can read the future, nobody put a time reference against it.

Mythica 16-10-2019 16:12
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36014096)
So we have no idea how many people's vote hasn't changed? What a useless poll.

The poll is separate to the question. The poll itself is always going to be useless, the only useful one would be a referendum. That said its interesting considering the outcome of the real vote from the Teesside area.

Pierre 16-10-2019 16:14
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36014096)
So we have no idea how many people's vote hasn't changed? What a useless poll.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50043549

nomadking 16-10-2019 16:21
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36014063)
In a sensible manner that doesn't adversely affect the country's population and economy.

No one voted to be worse off.
When are people going to finally get it it.:mad: This "deal" that everybody keeps going on about, is only legally meant to be an interim temporary(check your dictionary) measure before leaving, whichever way you look at it. End of Oct 2019 or end of Dec 2020. Any future ongoing deal has yet to be discussed by anybody.

Hugh 16-10-2019 16:27
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
I was meaning after whatever negotiations/deals were agreed.

Take a chill pill, dude... ;)

OLD BOY 16-10-2019 16:28
Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36014091)
Laughable optimism in the face of all the facts from Old Boy. A regurgitation of previous points so I won't address any specifically.
Except that it is true, jfman.


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