Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Boris will wipe the floor with Farage on that side of the equation.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Totally agree Hugh. However there is a significant selfish section of our society who really don't care about poor/vulnerable, just themselves and misleading others.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And you assume that all the downsides we keep hearing about will not be more than compensated by the upsides of all the new opportunities that will arise post Brexit.

I can't see the EU prospering much compared with the rest of the world over the coming years. Why would you want to get sucked further into that bureaucratically stifling hell that is the EU. You know what they say - better out than in.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

They also say 'better the devil you know', and 'the grass is always greener on the other side' ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I think Boris's promises on various fronts will be popular in the country and getting us out of the EU on 31 October will be rewarded by a grateful electorate. He will be elected with a much increased majority on 1 November if he's forced into calling an election by a vote of no confidence.

The Brexit Party will crash as it will no longer be relevant and has no policies on anything other than Brexit, which will have been achieved.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You had the same optimism about Mother Theresa, you thought she was a wonderful job with Brexit a few months ago. Who next? Jimmy Krankie ? He/she would be an improvement for sure.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Jimmy Krankie is currently very busy trying to foment constitutional chaos here in Scotland. Current stage name is Nicola. Be careful what you wish for.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And if Brexiteers are right and the opportunities from leaving the EU help our economy to prosper, how will that not help the poor?

Nobody wants a poorer society apart from Jeremy Corbyn and his henchman, McDonnell, who want to wipe out everyon's savings by printing as much money as they want and force food prices up by creating rampant inflation.

I want to see a prospering economy and a government that ensures that people in poverty are helped towards a better existence. Anything wrong with that?

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

No, I didn't but I was in favour of leaving with a deal. However, given the concerns over the backstop and the rather uncomfortable closeness her Withdrawal Agreement would have brought us towards the EU, I now believe that a no deal is preferable. I was worried about the short term more than anything.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

What upsides?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

ta daaaaa

https://brexitcentral.com/lets-recal...lion-per-year/

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

We'll have a far healthier population due to food and fuel shortages. ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Some common sense at last. No Deal was not promised in 2016 and was not part of the campaign. Quite the opposite in fact.

I am glad someone actually is being honest with what actually happened. When you then add 54% of the electorate voted for parties rejecting No Deal at the last GE, it really makes it very clear.

Any other position is just duplicitous posturing by those who wish to impose an ideological Brexit at all cost. We need more honesty here. The Hard Brexiters are willing to risk the livelihoods of us all, they just do not give a damn.

What is quite telling is that there are many who whined & moaned about the money spent by Cameron on the Remain leaflet who are totally silent on the many, many millions more planned to be spent by Johnson on No Deal propaganda.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Thank God, thank you, papa. I didn't fancy going through all that again!

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Mmm.. Brexit snake oil .. love it!

Now post some links to objective, independent research and we can debate the conclusions.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The referendum was for leaving or staying in the EU. Boris is perfectly within his rights to take us out.

No deal is better than a bad deal. Heard that one before?

The dystopian view you have been sucked into believing from the EU collaborators will not happen. How can you believe that nonsense? Now they are trying to claim that food rationing will have to be introduced!

Is there nothing this lot won't say to frighten people into believing this claptrap?

I'm surprised that none of these truthtwisters haven't yert claimed that we're all gonna die!

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

We’ve had enough of experts.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

What is not objective about those points? You really aren't prepared to engage in the real debate, are you? Instead of trying to discredit the whole idea of Brexit that the electorate voted for, why not actually tell us why you have a problem with the valid points that have been made here?

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

It's the lies being told by them that we object to.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Yet you can’t bring any unbiased and quantifiable alternative!

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Certain key concepts were at the heart of the Leave vote. Those have to be reflected in any mythical deal. Eg Customs union not allowed.



The current only available options are "no deal" or remain on vastly inferior terms compared to before(eg no rebate).
Link

Link

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You've read the article, surely. What else do you want?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

From Brexit Central. Yes, I've read the article. It's even less impartial than your digital media companies telling us that digital media is the future.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Like jfman, business would like some unbiased information and not something of dubious repute from a campaigning website.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4216361.html

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I've actually nothing against no deal, as long as it's at a time and place of our choosing. Not a simple four months after official Government policy was to achieve a deal.

We loaded the gun and held it to our own heads triggering Article 50. We now know why - the corruption within the Leave campaign would have undergone multiple legal challenges and Parliament would never have triggered A50.

Equally leaving while maintaining a customs union for goods (but not services) would have been an adequate half way house giving us all the benefits of leaving (end to freedom of movement) without all the uncertainty, or precarious negotiating position with the USA, of no deal.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

We need to just leave, the EU have made it clear they won’t change the deal. Parliament has rejected the deal 3 times.

What do you expect to happen?

It is clear any other deal that may be considered by the EU would be BINO, and our Remain Parliament EU sycophants would happily do a deal that kept us tied to them Single Market, Customs Union, ECJ and therefore not Brexit.

We need to leave, with a deal that respects what we were there led would happen and if you can’ Remember it was:

- leave the Single Market
- leave the Customs Union
- leave the ECJ

As a minimum.

If that can’t be achieved then to achieve that would be by just leaving. “No Deal” is a fallacy as there would be a deal, it would just be after we have left....that’s all.

If this subversion of democracy was being undertaken in Central America, Africa or asia we’d be denouncing them as oppressive rogue states governed by despots.

I am sick of the bullshiite, I was a remainer....but this process has turned me into the most hardened leaver.

Just do as you’re Fff’n told.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Boris writes to the EU.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Haha. "Do one, Boris" comes the reply. How does Boris propose to protect the integrity of the Single Market?

I'm not sure how the backstop can be anti-democratic. The democratically elected Government negotiated it - we don't have direct democracy in international negotiations.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

As it prevents the conclusion of a democratic decision.

Also it was negotiated, in so far it was not proposed by the U.K., it was an EU device that we failed to negotiate out.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It doesn't prevent the outcome of a democratic decision. The UK can leave the EU while maintaining the Northern Irish backstop.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No.

I refer to the statements made numerous times by the then PM and just about every other talking head at the time.

- Leave the Single Market
- Leave the Customs Union
- Leave the jurisdictions of the ECJ.

That it what we were told Brexit was. It was, and to suggest otherwise is an outright lie.

The Backstop fails on point 2.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That's how Brexit has been redefined after the fact. You know this as well as I do, I fail to see the value in perpetuating the myth. Especially as it's broadly irrelevant - the EU won't budge because it protects the integrity of the Single Market.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

So what was Brexit all about then?:confused: It is the EU inventing things to suit their agenda. EG "Integrity of the Single Market".

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No no,

I recall everything before the fact. Which is why I voted remain.

Those 3no. Results of Brexit were front and centre, and to say otherwise is disingenuous to be kind, and an outright lie to be less kind.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Just as we don't want uncontrolled freedom of movement (people) the EU don't want uncontrolled freedom of movement (goods and services) streaming in from a non-EU member state (for example, chlorinated chicken). That means border controls. Makes sense, no?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You're twisting the truth, it was the imperial college London that released a study in January that claimed up to 12000 extra deaths a year could/would result from leaving, presumably though they're all old, ill and or poor so no one cares about them, no brexit martyr statue, no horst wessel lied for them

From the moment Dave opened his mouth this whole debacle is something that wouldn't look out of place in central America, Donny is even cosying up to us and we know how much he loves an unelected despot and I think it's you who can't remember, didn't ending freedom of movement get into that list?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You’re right it did and i’m More than happy for it to stay,

I didn’t include it because it is intrinsically implied by leaving the Single Market, we leave the four freedoms. But happy to explicitly list it.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Look, you can wander into Brexit fantasy land or you can follow the process. The 2016 debate set out a goal and promised, yes promised, that there was no downside and it would be an easy win.

You, along with many others are just being revisionist. I don't care what you are sick of. I don't care whatever you have turned into. I care about my family and I care about the country. Follow the process, follow the promise. The promise was a deal so a deal it is ..

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Incorrect. TM's deal fulfilled all the obligations of the 2016 vote. It was voted down by the ERG. These are the facts.

---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ----------

You represent the perfect paradox of the ardent Leave supporter. Regain Democracy by bypassing it. Implement the Will of the People by ignoring it. You deploy shallow tropes without meaning: "No deal is better than a bad deal" .. a vacuous slogan at best.

Your use of cartoon language: "sucked into believing", "EU collaborators", etc. just undermines any rational point you start to make.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No, you were obviously watching cbbc at the time.

The propaganda at the time, remember sent out to every household by a pro-Remain government set out many scenarios and invited you to judge them. There were no promises, but there were many claims.

The easiest trade deal in history being one and many others of that ilk. We haven’t even got to that point.

We still haven’t agreed on the Withdrawl agreement so any future agreement at this point is irrelevant.

on the contrary, as I have stated, the proposed outcomes of Brexit were front and centre before the vote. To state otherwise is an outright lie or to be so ignorant as to be irrelevant to the the discussion.


So do I, I fear for the future of this nation if we can be so ignored when it suits the political class

What’s the process?

no doubt you can provide such in any pre-2016 referendum literature- I love to see it

It blatantly didn’t.

How can we leave the Customs Union when there is a clause saying we can’t...........duh

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

From reading Johnson's leaked letter, I suspect we'll end up with a re-branded backstop.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It wasn't leaked, he released it to the public.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Hopefully, it's the end of the UK without one - although that would be nice to see as well.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Show me where the Leave campaign proposed No Deal "front and centre" before the vote. I will save you the time & energy, they didn't.

Let agree to differ as we just go round in circles. You have your reality and I have mine.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And where did the leave(IE the side that won) campaign say remaining at any cost was ok? Or freedom of movement, customs union, having to follow EU rules and the ECJ.


Why do I have to keep pointing this out:-:mad:
THERE ISN'T AND NEVER HAS BEEN, A DEAL OF ANY SORT ON OFFER.


The Withdrawal Agreement isn't a deal. It is only supposed to cover less than 2 years until the end of 2020. Come 2021 we would be back to "No Deal". That is unless you count the backstop as some kind of back door illicit deal that we(including Parliament) get no say over.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I am not twisting the truth. Wherever that claim came from, the Labour Party and the undemocratic remainers who want to ignore the will of the electorate are making these claims as if they were factual. They are not factual at all. They are just opinions touted by people who have no vision of how Brexit can be made to work to the UK's advantage.

All they are doing is attempting to frighten people into putting pressure on the government to ignore the referendum result, and it is highly reprehensible.

---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Bullshit. The democratic will of the people was expressed in the referendum and confirmed thereafter in general elections and local government elections. That is your inconvenient truth.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Link

That study was SOLELY based upon the presumption that consumption of fruit and veg would go down.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

One problem I foresee with No Deal being seen as the cleanest Brexit is that any future trade deal will likely require some reintegration with the European Union. Whether it's regulation, some laws including special privileges for European citizens or less rigorous customs checks.

What is going to happen when these details come out as part of future trade negotiations?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The "No to no-deal" people(ie remain side) insist on accepting whatever the EU says, with no negotiation allowed.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It's not really accepting what the EU say because it's the EU. It is more a case of accepting reality over fantasy.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It’s better for the EU to have to ask for them to be put on the table, rather than being able to argue for continuation of the status quo. For us to threaten to diverge from regulations we previously agreed to be bound by is perhaps a less credible negotiating tactic than proving our willingness to cut loose and then being willing to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement based on a mutually acceptable degree of integration.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No matter who we trade with in the future any exports will have to meet or exceed the requirements of that country, that is for manufacturing to decide who they wish to export to. Alternatively as the British kite mark used to be accepted almost worldwide a return to that standard of excellence if done correctly should suit most countries.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

All countries around the world have to conform to the rules of the import country. Nothing new.

The EU and ECJ are responsible for the imports to the EU, and the UK should be responsible for imports to the UK. What is problematic or controversial about that? It will take time before any divergence in rules and regulations to take place, and then it is most likely to be the EU(ie Germany) driving any changes.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

How so? We are talking about a trade deal. What other trade deals are you aware of that require such integration?

Absolutely no way. We will be negotiating as an independent country. The EU will no longer have any hold over us.

Boris knows this, and it is what the ERG have been claiming for quite a while now.

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

I don't recall Canada accepting such integration.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not quite true - trade deals commonly involve mutual recognition of standards, not forcing products to conform to the precise standards of the market they’re being sold into. That’s one of the reasons a trade deal between the UK and the EU should be straightforward, even if we’ve technically cut loose from single market rules. There isn’t going to be any significant divergence in just a few years so a deal based on recognition, rather than conformity, should not be difficult to accept.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I'm not sure smuggling goods into the European Union across the Atlantic Ocean is as cost effective as across the British partition on the island of Ireland.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Exactly.
The question is whether we negotiate from a position of strength with access to the biggest market in the world with the EEA plus the largest number of trade deals in the world (eg Vietnam, Israel, Canada, South Africa, Korea, Chile, Turkey, Argentina, Morocco, Mexico, Puru, Barbados, Seychelles).
Or whether we negotiate from a position of weakness with no deals in place.
I know which I would prefer to do.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

35 countries in total.

We are not doing too bad from a position of weakness.

Link

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The Palestinian Authority. The thriving economy that it is.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Looks like the EU have rejected Boris backstop demand (again), now there's a surprise ! We blink again and again and they remain steadfast.

He has no plan, being PM and just trying to muddle through seemed to be about it. What a plonker.

No deal is a bluff and he's been found out.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You'll find out if bluff or not on 31st October.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Backstop rejected
Election called after no-deal
DUP lose leverage
Border in the Irish Sea.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Yes trick or treat or begged for extension ;)

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

+ Tories blamed for chaos and Corbyn PM, a price worth paying ?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I cannot wait.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Link??

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Boris "really means" backstop discussion must be reopened.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Corbyn will be thrilled though.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It's my guess of what might happen.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not very good at it are you?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No worse than those predicting the EU offering a last minute deal.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And no worse than those predicting the sky will fall in if we leave with no deal.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Except that no one actually predicted this, it's just been a strawman to hide genuine issues.

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Could be Boris says "The EU are caving in, I need more time to secure a deal." before agreeing to a relabelled backstop.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

OK Mr Pedant, how about this.

And no worse than those predicting we will fall off a cliff edge if we leave with no deal.

Happier?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

What do you get out of being needlessly aggressive? :rolleyes:

It’s a prediction of a possible course of action.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You made a statement not a prediction. As you well know remainers are full of predictions but state them as facts.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The European Commission isn’t authorised to do anything else at present. It won’t (can’t) change its tune unless the member states agree a different approach, and then instruct the EC accordingly.

If anything changes it will first be thrashed out on the fringes of the G7 next week. France and Germany will then go and tell the rest of them what to think. BoJo’s letter was never intended to get the EC to change its position today, it was intended to put his absolute rejection of the backstop and his determination to leave the EU in October in writing, before the G7, by way or convincing Macron and Merkel that he’s actually serious about it.

They may still be unmoved, in which case his final gambit will be to try to blame EU intransigence for No Deal, but understanding that Boris isn’t bluffing might be what does make them move.

I believe an acceptable fudge, sans backstop, will be forthcoming, and when Parliament sits it will be presented with a single deal or no deal scenario to vote on. I wonder who would vote no deal in such a binary situation.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And I believe Forest Green Rovers will win the FA Cup this year ;)

Thing is, even without the backstop it's a really crap deal. It leaves us much worse off than if we stayed in the EU, however that now seems to be an irrelevance to true ''believers', any opposition is 'collaboration', being a 'quisling' or 'treachery'. Wake up and listen to the mad, demented, stuck in WW2 language. We're a laughing stock to the rest of the World, with a clown for a leader.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Michael Gove is another buffoon but I don't think he's a racist.... He's biding his time till it all implodes,, not long now.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

There is a realistic potential for a compromise on the backstop. It would have to meet these standards:

• Allow Boris Johnson to say he has won a concession
• Allow Ireland to save face
• Avoid the prospect of a hard border in Ireland

Now I am not sure what solution that would be. In the end if standards diverge after the transition period then you need customs checks and 'blockchain' is not an answer. But you can kick that problem into the long grass with some clever wording whereby everyone understands the issue needs to be resolved without those checks and is confident it will be.

I still think it will take the form of a cleverly worded way of saying in the event of no agreement after the transition period the U.K Government gets to decide between continuing the transition or diverging without N.Ireland.

Essentially what the EU offered a year or so ago. The EU gets to say they got what they wanted - especially Ireland - and Boris got rid of the backstop. DUP might not be happy though.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

All this time and you think that has any bearing on anything?

That argument means nothing

Being that remaining will not happen

What’s your pleasure? No deal or amended deal?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That’s like asking someone which leg do they want broken?*


*neither

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I'm not.wrong though am I? Deal or amended deal, we'll be worse off. That's why you, like a sensible Gent, voted to remain.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

He's not a buffoon, either. He is very intelligent. But also rather strange.

---------- Post added at 20:44 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

The EU needs to concede that the backstop will be in place for two years or when the new trade agreement becomes operational, whichever is the earlier.

Why would that be a problem? There certainly won't be a backstop if there's a no deal.

Ireland need to get their act together and start to get real about this. Posturing won't get them anywhere. They are just a little country attempting to have their day on the world stage. If they continue like this, it will all end in tears. But it won't be the UK that's weeping.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

We will be worse off only if we are tied in pepetuity to the backstop.

I don't see why you have this perverse attraction to the EU. It is an appalling set-up and we will be well shot of them.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Yep, that’s where we are.

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ----------

I did indeed, call me a fortune teller, but I knew this would end in one almighty shat show. I’ve never been a fan of the EU and to be honest pre-referendum I didn’t even have a strong opinion on it either way. It was one of those things that was just is.

The driver behind my ire for this whole situation, is the failure to deliver a democratic decision. That I can’t abide. I’ve been on the losing side of many decisions, made by others, in my life and accepted and moved on.

I look at Hong Kong, and they are literally fighting for democracy. Yet many of us seem happy to throw it away as it suits us. That is to me disgusting.

The failure by Parliament to put aside party politics and deliver Brexit...and that is aimed directly at Corbyn, and the failure of the EU to not be the EU has just turned me into an ardent leaver.

I doubt I am alone. Probably not a massive amount but as in many elections, the silent righ
right of centre grou usually voice their opinion in the polling booth.

To think re-running the referendum would bring about a substantial turnaround to the 2016 result, I think, would be seriously mis-placed.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Oh, the irony... ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Yes, we are small in geography it is true, but we punch above our weight and are one of the largest economies in the world.

Why do so many people in this country try and do this country down? This narrative has got to change or we will be the architects of our own downfall.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

You say "do this country down", other say "being realistic"...

One of the largest economies in the world is true, but we used to be the 4th largest, now we are 7th (in one measure, we are 9th)

We do punch above our weight, due to historical reasons, but the modern world is made up of economic groupings, as they carry more weight than individual countries - just look at some of the trade deals we have completed so far, which include the groupings of Central America, Andean countries, Caribbean countries, and Eastern and Southern Africa.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

How much of that is the increase in countries like India and China? Internal consumption is meaningless as it is linked with size of population. Eg in the per person measure, San Marino is above us. They are not exactly an economic powerhouse. India and China don't even make the top 50.


Well over £300bn exports from rest of EU to UK is not chicken feed.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

As Hugh says, it's about trading blocs, not individual countries. Ireland has historically been bossed around by the UK. The roles are now more equal; some may see reversed.

---------- Post added at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

If this was the UK, then some would be saying this provides a great opportunity to trade with the rest of the world and not confine ourselves to Europe. ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And where is Ireland?

With respect, you are not being realistic, Hugh, you are being negative.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Ireland is being backed up the European Union, one of the biggest economic blocs in the world if not the biggest.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Ah, right, that dwindling economy...:D

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

As of August 21st.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

They'll have plenty of money to build that wall then ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

A possible election landslide then in early November...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Amusingly, when I clicked on that link, I got this...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Dwindling means "gradually diminishing".

Since the EU economy is forecast to grow by 1.4% this year and 1.6% next year, how can it be "dwindling’?

And if it is, and the U.K. economy is forecast to grow by 1.3% this year and 1.2% for next year, does that mean the U.K. economy is dwindling even faster?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

What's the forcast if we remain in the union?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

@Hugh Yes, there are a number of different polls on that page. All depends on the question.;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Sorry, I meant diminishing in comparison with other large economies of the world.

The UK's economy is growing slower than it should be at the moment due to uncertainty over Brexit, but after 31 October, we will start to turn the corner. There is no reason not to expect real dynamism in the economy once the dust settles.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Is that prediction based on the same optimism your GATT 24 agreement being a given was based on? You do seem to have walked away from that prediction in the last few weeks so you must forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical as far as your predictions are concerned.