Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

But you wanted Mr Gove as the leader so you have obviously changed your tune old boy.;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Not at all. Mr Gove was not chosen to be PM and I accept that (or do you think I should moan about it and start a petition?;))

I think the Government will be poorer for his absence.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

With your following one suspects you might get quite a few signing your petition old boy.;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

yes but backs will be safer :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Actually, the petition was started by a Leaver, when he thought his side was going to lose.... ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Infamy! Infamy! You seem to have it infamy Den :D.

I'm sure BoJo will have done something similar to his fag at school :blush:.

I think Den will start a petition to get rid of me. He's worried that he's agreeing with me too often ;).

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well sorry Mr Gove isn't involved in the Brexit talks but the two chosen are well capable of carrying out the task. In the end, it's up to Ms May to finalise the details. I still think we have a good chance of a50 by September assuming they work during recess.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

David Davis said its more likely to be pressed at the end of this year or the beginning of next year.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That seems unlikely.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7138971.html

---------- Post added at 15:45 ---------- Previous post was at 15:43 ----------

Thankfully he won't be involved in any real depth. He's excluded from trade and the actual business of the exit itself.

He's a laughing stock across the Channel; better having someone negotiating who doesn't need to rebuild bridges they've previously burned.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Now it's apparent we aren't going to get stitched up with a U turn on the ref, it's quite correct to wait before article 50 and as we have seen there's wider issues concerning free movement, like the way France keeps being clobbered, we won't need too many more of those and no one will want free movement.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Tragic though last night's events were that's 3 major incidents in 18 months they have had to put up with. We have been lucky as Police have thwarted recent plans to bomb us. However, these new methods mean you could be walking down any street in any town and get a knife in you before you can say boo!

I feel they may have to rethink the freedom of movement. We weren't meant to be one bug happy family, the world is too big for that. Of course, they won't. They might do us all a big favour though and build a big massive wall round the EU. Soon as we leave I vote we blow up our end of the tunnel.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If attacks continue and other nations are hit I think freedom of movement will be it's first victim and wouldn't that be ironic we vote out and events cause a bit of realism to hit home.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It pains me to say this being a Scot living in NE England but Scotland can still scupper it. Seems like Theresa May wants Scotland on side before a 50 can be invoked. Can't see that happening.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't think they can, we already know that the EU won't entertain them as a sub member of an existing country, we also know that May won't allow them another referendum. It's just noises off. Unless they do a UDI.

Good luck with that, with no currency, no real means of support.

SNP forward planning is a bit like this:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If I had to pick who is the more astute political thinker out of Theresa May or Nicola Sturgeon it's not really a choice as Sturgeon is not remotely as clever as she thinks and now she's going to be dealing with a stronger female leader. Much as they might want Scotland cannot prevent brexit the only question for Scotland is does it stay apart of the union or find a way to leave with the horrendous consequences that would have for Scotland.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm just sick to death of hearing them bitching all the time, it's as well we didn't have a referendum to break away from them, dollars to doughnuts says we'd do it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I would hope if there is another vote for Scottish independence that the other countries in the Union get a vote. I know I would vote farewell to Scotland. Maybe then I can hate on Murray without being harassed for it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If Scotland does leave the UK we will have to find a new home for our Trident submarines based at Faslane as Scotland are keen to show their non-nuclear credentials.

Moving the base to England would be difficult and expensive in what could be trying economic times.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I wouldn't see that as a showstopper, don't forget it also generates jobs and income, their loss if it goes...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If there is ever another Scottish independence referendum then it's right the rest of the union gets to have their say on the issue and perhaps that might stop the calls for it so much one thing to be the one wanting out another to find out others don't want you. I really don't want to go through another unpleasant voting campaign and we know for a certainty another independence referendum would be very unpleasant and whilst I don't expect Scots to constantly thank the rest of the UK it would be nice not to have the constant venom.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The SNP is the 21st C equivalent of the NUM. We should call their bluff and let them pick uo the pieces. Unlike Farage and UKIP, Salmond, Splurgeon et al are far too comfortable believing that they're punching above their weight and picking up their pay cheques.

The Celtic Tiger Scots will probably agree with them in spite of the facts but maybe the're due a dose of reality...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Let's not blame all Scots for the venom of a few uppity nationalists. The vote was to remain part of the UK.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Who blamed all of them? I blamed the SNP...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Waters can get muddied very quickly. It plays into the hands of the Nats.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's their problem not mine. I've never been a great lover of tail wagging dog buit then I can understand why the likes of Salmond might feel being a tick is the best they'll ever do... ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

USA cools on prospect of a trade deal with a EU that doesn't include the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...a-Brexit-trade

Apparently the UK is the destination for 25% of all US imports into the single market.

Looks like la chaussure est sur l'autre pied, now. :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-36819182

Where's that facepalm meme

Someone should do a 'Dear Nicola' letter something like:

Dear Nicola,
if you truly want your life's desire, simply arrange for the rest of the UK to vote for your independance, I think you'd get your wish ...
Sincerely
England

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Nicola Sturgeon wants Scotland to stay in the EU but we don't really know why that is.

If Theresa May and the Brexit team can come up with better trade deals outside the EU it may well be that she and Scotland would be happy to stay.

Canada, Australia, Germany and India all seem keen to do free trade deals. Canada already has a deal with the EU and seems willing to act as an intermediary allowing the UK to trade with them and access the EU indirectly.

It will be interesting to see how the EU responds in light of the willingness of other countries to trade with the UK.

Maybe we'll finally get the EU reform that the Syrian crisis and migration highlighted. Then again the EU could be glad to see the back of us.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Actually Nicola is a very clever woman and knows exactly what she's doing. There are soft spots in the EU for Scotland and if they can convince the rest then technically Scotland could remain in the EU but then they would have to go independent, use the euro and accept freedom of movement which means a border at Carter Bar, Berwick, Carstairs, etc.

I kinda feel a bit daft now as I've supported the SNP since 1985 and I don't like the way they are going either. Yes I wanted independence but UDI wouldn't work as someone said no money. However, I suppose they could peg themselves to the currency. Trouble is, even using Scottish notes only is no use cos they are not allowed to print money unless they have a brand new currency and that, although workable, means they have to start from the low rung on the credit scale with the world banks.

This could have been sorted out before the independence vote, yes I believe it came too quick and should have been about 5 years later when they had time to sort things like currency. I bet they wish they had voted for independence now?

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

ROFL Indeed. Of course us Scots can say the same about the world cup with the English. We are bored to tears hearing about that too but I wouldn't go down the path of hatred. COME ON ANDY!

What I don't agree with is Scottish MPs voting on English issues. Now it's meant to be a United Kingdom Parliament I know but this is why devolution doesn't work. It has to be independence or nothing. The same would happen if Cities get devolution. They would want something and the Parliament would say no. Scotland can't have another referendum without Parliament's say-so, so it's either UDI or nothing there.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

What came out during the independence debate was that they would be moved to America's north east and they seemed keen on that idea.

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 ----------

As a Scot living in England I wrote to the SNP asking why Scots living in England, NI or Wales can't have a vote. If we can produce a Scottish birth certificate. They didn't bother replying but denied the vote to anyone outside Scotland.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As far as relocating the sub base in the event of independence devonport would be the likely place with temporary use of US facilities if needed.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The problem with all these votes and referendums is that you cannot rely on the campaigning politicians to tell you the truth as they all have their own agendas.

I'm hoping that the Brexit free trade deals are good enough to keep Scotland in the UK but out of the EU. Indirect trading with the EU via Canada seems to offer the best of both worlds.

I also hope that such deals equally satisfy Wales and Northern Ireland who are also important players in this equation.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

About 2 miles away from me old boy in the unlikelihood of Scotland gaining independence.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I suppose the positives are that you would have your own nuclear deterrent and have base staff contributing into your local economy.

The negative is that in the event of war/conflict etc. the base will be high on the strategic target destruction list and the subject of any subsequent bombardment.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Devonport would be a primary target regardless of the presence of a nuclear sub base. Glasgow, Clydebank and the lower Clyde are all targets as well, regardless of the presence of Trident at Faslane, and an air burst nuclear strike on any or all of them would vaporise Helensburgh and district anyway.

The argument against nuclear weapons based on proximity to civilians is entirely bogus.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If things get that bad nukes are used we are all screwed there are no safe areas of the UK so not something that needs too much worrying about. There is no real strength or bargaining power over faslane and the SNP know it so they will concentrate on other areas. I do find it a bit amusing that Nicola Sturgeon constantly talks about how Scotland's democratic vote in the referendum has to be accommodated and respected then talks about blocking brexit completely disrespecting the democratic vote of the majority.

Being honest I love Scotland and most of the Scottish people but I'm fed up of the whole independence thing hanging over everyone's heads and knowing the SNP can and will spit the dummy anytime they don't like something. I'd be in favour of Scotland going it's own way now and the rest of union restructure rather then have a situation where one part of the UK can constantly create tension and uncertainty. Feeling towards Scotland after the last independence referendum became more hostile and I'd hate it to get to the point where there was hate involved so would rather we part while relations are more positive then negative.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We don't even think about having the military base close by as there has been nuclear submarines going in there for refits for a pretty long time already so we have never been concerned by anything nuclear personally.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think we are probably all hoping that no government is ever stupid enough to use nuclear weapons as the effects of the original atomic bomb explosions broadcast on TV many years ago were bad enough but today's nuclear weapons carry a much bigger payload with a much more devastating effect.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The whole point is that they're unusable. Deterrence - if they are used, the doctrine which led to their development has failed.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36819532

The EU need to confirm along with the UK that the right to stay in the UK has ended along with the all other rights of EU citizens as soon as A50 is triggered

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The upside to this when she fails she will have to resign and fall in to the Nicola who! bracket

But it also works both way, 1.8 million Brits live and work abroad,

Whilst the Vienna convention is not cast in stone I don't think it would be in britains interest to show a max exodus of EU migrants back to the continent doesn't exactly look good for business and as the European court of human rights will still be valid so expect lengthy delays whilst people have legitimately settled and bought homes fight for their right to stay.

Rules apply until we actually leave otherwise expect all the expat retirees coming back from Spain putting drain on the NHS who haven't paid in for years

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

But the British abroad tend to be the ones with money compared to the dross we have to put up with from the EU, eg one-legged Romanian roofers, family of 24 from Czech Republic with only one working.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Oh ffs, does the Brexit not mean we can leave that stupid Human Rights crap?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Leaving the EU means we can drop the ECHR, I presume that's what you meant by 'human rights crap', without it affecting our EU membership.

Personally I'd rather we didn't as I don't for a second trust the Tories or Labour to properly replace it given their recent records, though your mileage may vary.

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------

Weirdly these are the same 'dross' that people complain are taking 'their' jobs. Go figure. :shrug:

You mean that "stupid" system which protects people allowance of freedom of speech, ensures gay people are not persecuted and ensures everyone gas a right to fair trial, and protection of compensation to thalidomide victims amongst other items?

Sorry, but you will still be in it and British judges will still need to interprete the rulings based on this

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Higher proportion of dross. Either way they wouldn't be taking much money back with them. They brought little here in the first place.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

All those stats indicating lower out of work welfare claimant levels, higher employment rates, better education levels, etc, than native British must be inaccurate I guess.

There was one stat that might have indicated 'dross' - higher levels of in-work benefit claims. These would've been largely taken care of through a combination of the measures agreed in February and the minimum wage increasing.

If you're looking for 'dross' you might be thinking of some nations outside the EU, the immigration we can control, where unemployment is 40%+, out of work welfare claims are far higher than average and levels of integration with wider society far lower we see from most of the EU-27.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't mind that, I do however, resent things like the farce surrounding the deportation of people like Abu Hamza or people not being able to be deported because they have a pet cat and things of that nature.

There IS distinct room for movement on the current ECHR so please... don't pee on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

pet cats is a myth that our new PM was pulled up on in 2011, ECHR has never said that

as for Abu Hamza, ECHR took 2 years of the 10 year delay so again take that one up with British Government

We might blame EU/ECHR for a lot of things but a lot of these problems were not of EU and/or we had power to act upon it

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The European Court of Human Rights may have taken 2 years but the European Convention on Human Rights was responsible for ALL of those 10 years. The court is part of an appeal process. As with ANY other legal process there are many other stages before getting to a final appeal. That all takes time.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Indeed, the fact that our courts can make a decision which can then be questioned and overruled by a random court in europe is the problem...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No, US wanted to extradite him and then our own British Government wanted to then prosecute him and took that time

either way we are going off topic as its has nothing to do with us leaving the EU

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The bigger problem is the Immigration Tribunals where those "Judges" are actually just lawyers who have applied for the posts, meaning that those with a biased interest can rule on them.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole European Court thing.

I thought the ECHR was nothing to do with the EU, and even if we left the EU then judgements made by the ECHR could still overule our courts.

Whereas the European Court of Justice was an EU formed body, so we would now be outside of that.

Can anyone save me the google time and advise?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Correct.

The EHCR is the enforcement body of the Council of Europe. The CofE was set up after world war 2 to monitor and prevent a repeat of the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. We are a member of the Council of Europe and have been since founding it in 1949 (the Treaty of London in case you're interested). There are now 47 member states.

Membership of the EU is conditional on a state first being a member of the Council of Europe, but the bodies are completely independent of each other.

The European Union muddied the waters in 1985, perhaps intentionally, by stealing the Council of Europe's flag, which it had been using since 1955.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What, Human Rights like Maternity/Paternity leave and various others?

I could argue you just believed the lies spread by the Mail and Sun, but most EU migrants pay their way. Be interesting to see if the same can be said for the British in this country. I'm thinking specifically of the millions of Chavs we have living on council (and ex-council) estates in this country.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The rules do apply until we actually leave,but they don't have to .It would be be easy enough and probably wise to stop all EU citizen rights as soon as A50 is triggered ,after all once A50 is triggered it cannot be stopped so it's pointless still enforcing rules that won't apply in a couple of years anyway .

We need to stop the right of travel to this country immediately or we will have a rush of migrants wanting to get here .That won't affect any migrants already here or any of the Brits living and working abroad ,i don't know where you get that idea from .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Those have nothing to do with the ECHR. What new ones suddenly happened when it was introduced all those decades ago? It's idea was to keep the status quo and NOT a need to add a series of new ones.

A gave 2 real examples. The family of 24 was just some of 6,000 of that grouping living in just one UK town. Add in others from that grouping from other countries/living in other towns/cities and the same with other groups, and you get a huge number, all getting housing and benefits etc. Why should other EU countries be allowed to export their dross? The fact we have our own dross doesn't make any difference. When a British ex-pat has gone over to Spain or wherever, they usually take their savings with them thereby bringing NEW additional money to that country.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Millions of chavs or working class people doing their best guess it depends what media you observe as someone on a former council estate I don't see chavs I see my neighbours and friends trying to do the best they can and still maintaining a sense of community. Another aspect of the modern UK the eu referendum bought into focus was the level of self hate a sizable majority have regarding this country and some of it's citizens May is going to need to work really hard to resolve that problem.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That would be illegal.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well I must say all this positive talk of trade deals with Canada, China, Australia, New Zealand etc. isn't at all what that tragic group the Remainers predicted in the Morrissey-style, doom laden, dirge they subjected us to for weeks leading up to the referendum. Nope, there's precious little evidence of fences going up or little Englanders cutting us off from anyone, except maybe the faceless suits in Brussels whose head in the sand egotism has driven the EU to the edge of the precipice...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The trouble with some in this country Rizzy is the constant stereotyping of certain groups but then again what else can you expect from some who permanently seem to have their prejudiced blinkers on.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's a tad early for 'I told you so', and a long way from being constructive. I could happily pile in with various links, citations, etc, but I think the forum as a whole gratefully left recrimination over the referendum behind and is looking towards the future now.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Only because the EU say it is ,they could just as easily say that all EU rights for citizens end when A50 is triggered ,all it takes is political will .The only reason we have to wait the 2 years is because that was the decision made when A50 was formulated,they could have just as easily ended EU citizen rights when A50 is triggered ,it hasn't been tried yet and will no doubt be subject to change when we have finished exiting.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

University pf Salford study from 2013.
That group well-known for being right wing.:rolleyes:
They aren't the sort who live in caravans or even bungalows, so where are they all living?

Channel 4.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Have to agree ,when was the last time we heard of someone leaving the UK to claim benefits in Boznia .Whichever way you look at it there is a problem of migrants getting benefits in this country without ever contributing .The number doesn't matter ,it could be 2,000 or 200,000 annually it is wrong and needs to stop .Our own 'lazy' non workers are getting hammered from every angle by the benefits system so why should migrants be any different

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

These people are here in large numbers and more are on their way. Of course those who can't or don't want to see beyond the ends of their noses won't acknowledge the massive problem which is being exacerbated and isn't going away. Maybe it hasn't reached their doorsteps yet... Our society is not so gradually being irreversibly changed and undermined by a huge influx of people which shows no signs of even slowing down let alone stopping.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The Treaty of Lisbon that we agreed to says it's illegal, not the EU.

We probably don't want to get things off on that kind of foot. A smooth, amicable break-up would be best.

Going back on treaties doesn't inspire confidence in others that we're a reliable partner.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

I know, let's pick on one specific group of EU migrants and tar all of them with that same brush. Let's just stop taking in migrants of any description. Some of them are bound to be 'dross'.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Well, yes. Our welfare system is largely non-contributory. Change the system the problem goes away. Not sure about migrants being any different - they are subject to the same or stricter welfare rules than natives.

On the whole EU migrants take less out-of-work welfare than natives and more in-work welfare due to working for lower pay, however we had agreement to refuse in-work welfare to EU migrants for a time. That agreement expired with the referendum result.

As with so many other things the root of this issue is our own system. I would be a huge advocate of a more contributory welfare system, it would solve many problems, but rather than grasp that nettle it's been easier to blame migrants.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I didn't pick on one group or another. It's just there was a TV prog where a couple came over with 22 children and grandchildren. The programme also said there were 6,000 other Czech Roma in Rotherham. I was giving it as a TRUE AND REAL example. They were all getting housed and claiming benefits.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A mutual agreement to set side the rules could be achieved with enough political will ,it would expedite our exit which would benefit all parties and it would stop any possibility of a mass influx of migrants.

Absolutely agree .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I understand there is an EU mechanism for an emergency brake on migration and, if so, maybe we should trigger it.

Whilst there are plenty of things wrong with our internal systems and procedures, I don't see anything wrong with blaming those who chose to come here deliberately to exploit them, whether that be benefit and housing claimants, health tourists or indeed people who come and immediately set about having children despite having no job and no prospects. Why would anyone do that except for triggering the extra benefits and entitlements (e.g.g housing) which some with children? The system of free movement coupled with our benefit system exacerbates this problem and no matter what we do, unless we embark on the sort of tough reforms of our welfare, legal, health services many of us wouldn't wish to see, we are going to be unable to prevent large scale abuse of the system be people who've never contributed a thing and whose only motivation is to get something for nothing. Even then, with fake documents easy to obtain, who's going to be able to check entitlement with any degree of certainty?

---------- Post added at 07:53 ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 ----------

Correct and it's happening all over the place.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think it's worth mentioning that even outside of the EU there's a good chance we'll still have to retain freedom of movement if we want a decent trade deal with the EEA. Hell, there's talk of a new agreement even possibly requiring joining the Schengen (which I can understand people have concerns about, especially since 'islands are different').

The potential of trade deals with the USA, Canada, Australia do seem promising but keep in mind that it's very unlikely that they would work in our favour. The fact is that we can't start negotiations (though we can have informal talks) until we have officially left the EU, and the UK, being in a vulnerable position post-Brexit, is almost certainly going to be offered the short end of the stick.

It's also worth considering that these deals could take a long time to hammer out, during which time we would have to pay tariffs on trade with these countries, though I suspect less time than some have made out. Whilst it's true that such deals have taken 7 to 10 years for other countries to negotiate, coming out of the EU, assuming we keep the majority of EU legislation we should be *mostly* compatible with similar agreements to what we already have via the EU.

If you were concerned about TTIP especially this should concern you, as the US are likely to offer our government something very similar or potentially even more draconian, especially since the Conservatives apparently had no issue with it when the EU were considering it, despite the objections of other EU member states.

Even so, the simple fact is that our trade with these countries does not make up anywhere near what our trade with the EU has - it's a tiny fraction by comparison and it's unlikely that it could ever replace it simply due to the distances and costs involved.

Some people on other forums have brought up the possibility of freedom of movement within the commonwealth (so say, with the UK, Canada and Australia) and I genuinely could see this being very appealing to the British public, especially as I imagine British people feel more of a connection with people from these countries than they do with say, Europe. Unfortunately I do think it's unlikely that such a deal could happen, especially since it'd probably cause a lot of younger and more qualified Brits to jump ship.

Personally, this has given me a nice kick to get off my arse and start considering what my other options elsewhere in the world may be.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Is there not a way freedom of movement could be slowed while negotiations take place? We're leaving anyway and I am sure the EU won't want to swamp us with migrants.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Theresa May Will Not Start Brexit This Year
The High Court is told the Prime Minister does not intend to trigger Article 50 this year, as lawyers mount a Brexit challenge.

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...snt-sf-twitter

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Why can't they just accept the democratic will of the people and get on with it?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't know but it certainly seems ridiculous to enforce rules that no longer apply .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Although there are a few who would like only the rich, white part of the Commonwealth to be allowed to migrate here, I doubt this would go down well with the remaining Commonwealth countries ..

---------- Post added at 15:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

You mean like Farage intended to do ;)

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

l think it was pretty inevitable that Article 50 would not be triggered this year as quite a few senior government officials have been briefing it since not long after the referendum that it was highly unlikely to be triggered this year..

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's probably a good idea to be prepared for Brexit and that will take time. It's a wise move not to invoke Article 50 given that Theresa May has publicly announced her commitment to Brexit.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

But won't that just move the immigration problem from one area to another?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think we have to accept that, in the modern world, Britain is a multicultural, multi-racial and multi-faith country.

In terms of immigration the only way to reduce immigration is to ensure that there are no jobs available and that the unemployed are got into work as soon as possible particularly in the NHS where we have spectacularly under-rated the numbers of staff we need to run the service.

The vast amount spent on agency nurses is undermining the NHS and it's time that the government set up its own agency and set national rates and conditions that the NHS can cope with without the massive overheads caused by the existing agencies.

Where immigrants come from does not matter provided that they have the necessary knowledge, skills, qualities and attitudes to make a positive contribution to society in numbers that we can adequately resource and provide for without having a negative impact on existing British nationals or their environment.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I heard somewhere that we are training our own Doctors and Nurses but they are few. The first batch should be ready in a year or so, so why not start more training? Eventually we will have enough to run the NHS. Not in my life time but in our Grandchildren's lifetime

The same, of course, applies to Joiners, Builders, Engineers, etc. We can do this!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Adult training is an area the UK has failed miserably in the last few decades it's often just been easy money for the company's that got the contract with no real oversight or means to ensure decent standards. I am hoping as we go forward that those areas of skills shortages are identified and the means to train people to fill those shortages are created so that we become as self sufficient as we can be. It can't be done overnight but we can make a start and if you turn round to most unemployed people and offer them the chance for proper training with a skilled job at the end of it they will jump at the chance.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think that probably demonstrates how disorganised we are. The planning, monitoring, training and recruitment are years behind what they should be.

If they had been we would have had a seamless transition from old staff leaving and new staff arriving with staff levels being correctly staffed.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Germany also has a problem recruiting doctors, so it's not just the UK.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I understand a lot of Greek medics have been heading there for that very reason. Spanish too I'd imagine.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I can understand Greek medics coming here for better wages but surely German doctors are better paid than ours. Then again we have been "poaching" medical staff from the EU for years to make up for staff shortages caused by bad planning.

Bad planning is also responsible for the shortage of prisons, nuclear power stations, navy ships etc.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Apparently a lot from Eastern Europe.

From 2014

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Theresa May appears to drop migration target deadline...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...corbyn-in-pmqs

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

See how many stay, we've always trained our own doctors but can't keep them, perhaps we could force them to stay, it is the will of the people after all

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As France and Germany show, the problem is not wanting to train in the first place, not leaving to go elsewhere.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We could force them to work for the NHS for say 5yrs to repay the money spent on training them,or we could simply make them pay for their own training as in other countries

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No not leaving isn't an issue :rolleyes:

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/fin...66.fullarticle

---------- Post added at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Or we could make the terms of employment as attractive as other countries offer, just a thought but if people want to stay rather than being forced to stay generally the outcomes are more positive

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What's wrong with agreeing to signing up to x no of years to offset the time and money invested in training you?

Other places do it, notably the forces where, dependant on your specialization and the level you attain, you agree to sign up for a number of years, essentially so the organisation that spent a lot of time and money investing in YOU, ensures that YOU give some back in return.

Or would you rather have it that (as now) people get trained, get a skill useful elsewhere in the world and fark right off without a second thought because 'it's better for them'

At least with option 1, you still get the opportunity to peddle your skill elsewhere, but not until you've somewhat repaid the time and effort put into getting you that skill. Win win for everyone, instead of having to import dodgy 3rd world, barely english speaking/reading doctors with no benefit for anyone.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Indeed since the EU became a political union there has been no need to train our own. Why should we when we can get cheap labour from the EU? Maybe they will start training now. They should because then in 2 years time there will be a workforce. NHS excluded that takes 5-7 years apparently.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No, and I doubt the EU cares. It's not their problem unless we through negotiations make it their problem in which case we leave ourselves open to reciprocal action.

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It's not that simple. We can just accept it, get on with it, and cut off our nose to spite our face.

We absolutely need to get this right, else we risk affecting so many things both within and without Europe.

As far as democracy goes, that's an entirely different barrel of monkeys. When I see people protesting en masse for proportional representation and an elected second house then I'll take seriously people's complaints about democracy.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

The trouble is they apply until the end of the two years. I agree it seems ridiculous but it's what the UK agreed to when Gordon Brown, on the quiet, signed the Lisbon Treaty :(

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Immigration isn't necessarily a problem. We have a laundry list of things we could and should do better. It's going to be falling back naturally anyway as our economy is no longer as exceptional as it was.

We need to get our house in order here. We do that we can manage immigration way, way better. We needed it desperately in the 2000s but some of it was the wrong kind, although on hindsight realistically we couldn't expect it all to be exactly what we wanted.

For the most part the migration from the EU has been positive, although Romania and Bulgaria not so positive. Among the worst if not the worst immigration has been from elsewhere, with bits of Africa, Bangladesh and Pakistan standing out.

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This article kinda puts forward the difficulties ahead. For right now it really is that black and white.

This is a good article too.

I don't envy her the fine line she has to tread and am pretty sure that she chose some of her cabinet with the intention of their treading that fine line instead of her.

Seems reasonable based on her performances in PMQs and the reshuffle that she's nothing if not ruthless.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

l suspect many of us are not surprised by this...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...09-says-survey

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...MCNEWEML6619I2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36853952

I'll leave this here..

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Are you likely to? Our papers are not going to be interested in what happens in Bosnia, anymore than the Bosnian papers are interested in what's happening here.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 ----------

Because they need to have a lot of things in place or proceeding (such as negotiations) before they can even consider invoking Article 50. If they don't, they risk damaging the economy.

This never was going to happen quickly, and if the Leave campaign ever even hinted it would, they were lying.

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 ----------

The problem is to train people it costs money. Beyond school education (which is where the potential votes are), no recent government has shown any real interest in funding education or training. Now, in a lot of cases, businesses have been funding their own training, and I hope this increases, but this tends to be training for staff they already have rather than potential recruits. I hope the government is going to spend at least some of the money it saves on improving training and education, as I think (at least in the STEM subjects) we are sorely lacking.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Nothing has actually happened yet. Everything is the same as before. Their figures are not based on any REAL things.
And their figures are not yet complete.
Not sure how they can publish full July figures that quickly.

Anyway the rest of the EU isn't doing that great so that by itself will have an impact, eg less exports.