re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Spoken like a true Tory. Wouldn't expect anything else. Did you know there are more Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

ex Tory voter actually ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And as soon as it is nationalised the daily loss will increase dramatically .Governments cannot run businesses effectively and competitively that has been proven many times

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

EU referendum: poll shows young voters could hold key in June vote




Leave campaign four points ahead in survey that shows just half of 18-34s are certain to cast their vote on 23 June

The decision over whether the UK remains inside the European Union could depend on whether young people shake off their apathy and vote in sufficient numbers on 23 June, a revealing opinion poll conducted for the Observer shows.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...s-brexit-leave

As you can see a large majority of people aged over 55 would vote to leave the EU. Does this not stick out like a sore thumb to those who want to remain that those of us who voted against in 1975 were right to do so? Just because we are getting older doesn't mean we're senile and don't know what we're doing. Remember we were young then and had the sense to see what was ahead. I just love saying to those who voted to remain in 1975 "I told you so." We could see where things would lead and we were right. Brussels Ruling Europe Politically and Germany ruling Financially were just two of the reasons we sited for leaving then and they have practically came to pass.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee those who think we should remain. And to all of those undecided, listen to your elders. It's no mistake that a vast majority of over 55s are against remaining in the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The same is true for Labour MPs... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nationalisation is not the issue. It's the right to decide whether to Nationalise that is the issue and you won't get that whilst you are a member of the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And yet a majority of those aged 55+ voted Tory in the 2015 UK General Election - should people listen to their elders on that matter? ;)

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...aspx?view=wide

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Elders but not betters. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the EEC of the 70s was not the beast it is today , i will vote to leave because in its current form the EU is an unworkable bureaucratic nightmare ,once it is dead and buried something good may arise from the ashes .

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

55 their just kids at that age :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

BFG alliance. The ragtag can go to hell in their handcart.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Considering the alternative, there was very little choice.

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

I did not claim to be better I claim to be correct.

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Correct but the point is we could see what it would lead to - What we are getting now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the bill ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's impressive - did you also forecast the creation of the Internet, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and other major political events?:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Strangely enough we were messing about with computers in about 1978 and said, one day we'll be able to contact each other and see each other on these things. That also came to pass.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Shame, you lost a lot of credibility bringing up that old chestnut, the old girls dead, she was ousted from politics in 1990 that was 26 years ago! 26... move on jeez.

Don't bother trying to label me this or that, you'll most likely get it wrong.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We seem to have a variant of Godwin's law* operating here at CF: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Thatcher approaches"—​​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Thatcher.

I paraphrase. :D

*Godwin's law

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I take it you don't live in the North of England then? Label you? You do a good enough job of that without me helping. Move on? She killed anything outside the home counties. It's why London and the rest have such a big gap - The North-South divide which despite what Cameron and Osbourne say about the Northern Power House is getting wider.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In 1978 we were already contacting each other with computers (well, the unit I was in with the RAF, GCHQ, NSA, et al were) - that wasn't the Internet...;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Irrelevant. In case you forgot, this is about the EU Referendum, you're way off the reservation, stick to the topic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Intranet, yes. But I was meaning over a bigger distance.

---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:37 ----------

So you lose. A reaction I'd expect when you have no answer. I'm aware what the topic is and it is related in a way. She gave away a lot to the EU. She tried to reform it and failed.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, I was in Teufelsberg, West Berlin, GCHQ's at Cheltenham, England, and NSA was/is at Fort Meade, Maryland, US of A... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not here to 'win' anything, I'm here to see the debate about the EU Referendum (on this thread anyway) not listen to people, wibbling on about stuff from 1980whatever. I don't care about what happened then, I don't care about Northern Powerhouses, Or London, or the tooth fairy. Because they're all just noises off. I DO care about the EU Ref though, so do try and please keep up & stick to the topic. I'm not here to 'win' or 'lose' anything this isn't the playground, & I'm not at school, so grow up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...9&d=1459761759


Trevor Kavanagh, commentary

Attachment 26549

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The lack of turnout from younger people will be a problem for the In campaign. Maybe these numbers will shake them out of complacency.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I might disagree with their choice but anyone who's complacent about this needs to wake up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Remain campaign is lacking a lot of the tangible things that enabled the No campaign to thrive in Scotland (despite the furious spinning by the Yessers, who are still trying to claim they have demographics on their side).

Here in the UK the benefits of the fully integrated economy, borderless travel and commerce and a common currency managed for the needs of all are real. The benefits of EU membership ... well apart from a vague sense that togetherness is probably a good thing, what is there? We don't even have the common currency and the common border, not that either of those things is especially appealing right now.

In Scotland, voters of all ages were able to appreciate and make a deliberate choice to remain beneficiaries of these things. But in the EU, if you vote Remain, what exactly are you voting for?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The same seems to apply to leave. What are you voting for? The arguments on both sides are rather abstract compared to tangible issues like currency and passports. The question for most people will be "How will these effect me?".

I would argue the fear of the unknown was a powerful tool for the No vote in Scotland and that is the same here.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This has to be right doesn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35958689

Why would such data be collected then not revealed? :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Music to my ears. I'll settle for that on June 23rd.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

A Leave vote is a vote for freedom. Freedom to make the choices that are best for the UK and not the EU. It's a vote for Sovereignty. It's a vote to stand on our own two feet. It's a vote for not having to cowtow to Brussels every time we want to make a decision that only effects the UK. It's a vote to decide who can and can't enter the UK. It's a vote to break free from the United States of Europe. It's a vote to make our own laws and have our own political correctness. Shall I continue or would other outers like to add to this?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This only proves the point though. There is a lack of tangible things to point too. I doubt 'freedom' is going to win over people who don't pay much attention to politics (which is a hell of a lot of people). Same with 'single market' or 'trade'.

That's why the Stay campaign is emphasising risk. If they want one thing to be drilled into every single voters head come voting then it's 'this is a bit of a risk!', even if they can't exactly articulate why.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't agree - not to the same extent in any case.

There is no widely understood picture of exactly what the EU does for us, what the benefits are. There is only a vague sense of interfering Eurocrats.

I would argue that there is far less sense of unknown for the UK outside the EU than there was for Scotland outside the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree that the sense of known was greater for the Scottish Referendum. I also think there are less tangible things for the Remain to point at.

I would say though that, so far, the Brexit campaign haven't managed to generate anywhere near the passion and excitement the Yes campaign had. Presumably the idea of a sovereign Scottish nation was a lot more powerful than that of a UK free of European influence. The Yes campaign managed to create a vision where supporters that saw an Independent Scotland as whatever they wanted it to be whereas Brexit has a vision of the UK being largely the same but without interfering Eurocrats.

Maybe that means the vote will come down to a cost vs benefit judgement rather than anything else. So the In campaign will hammer, relentlessly, the risk factor because I don't believe people are annoyed enough at Europe to leave if they perceive that to be economically risky. The Leave campaign will attempt to convince people otherwise because all things being equal people would probably vote to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I heard somewhere that the average person could be £25 - £500 better off by leaving the EU. Don't know how much truth there is in that but money talks. Even if someone thought they would be £25. better off I wonder would it entice them to vote Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If people believed that leaving the EU would not cost them at all then they would probably vote to leave. The main attraction of the EU to Britain has always been the single market. Most people aren't enamored by the 'European ideal' and don't like the EU machinery. Hell, if I believed there was no economic risk I would vote to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I heard somewhere that if we stay in the EU, there will be free BMWs and Audis for people - don't know how much truth there is in that but money talks. Even if there was a small chance of a free Audi or BMW, I wonder if it would enticed them to vote Stay.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's an economic risk to staying in. It's called Greece and the Euro. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What a silly response. Beggars belief!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It had as much basis in reality as yours...;)

Where did your hear yours - in the pub?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I heard that on the News on Sunday Morning. Where did yours come from?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I made it up, just like you did.

The figures you quoted were the amount of money that would sway voters, not the actual amount of money that Brits would be better off if we left...

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referend...s-little-as-25

You stated When in reality, the story was So it could affect voting either way, not just for Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Aye that's the one I heard. I know there is no actual money involved.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Q. When is a document not secure?

A. When it exists.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You know. Wonder what Cameron will do now his old man was a tax dodger?

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

EU referendum: NHS short-changed to tune of £5.7bn over health tourism says Vote Leave

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referend...-leave-1553182

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yet you stated it like there was actual money involved

Still at least we know how much truth there is in it now, none.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually what I said was "I heard somewhere' and "could be £25 - £500" not that they would be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I actually like being able to use indicators, obey speed limits and park. Being forced to take a free BMW or Audi would make me more likely to vote Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, having had both, I found the indicators and speedo worked fine - but I am a carp parker, tbf.

I have found lately that a lot of drivers, in many different cars, seem not to have been taught "mirror, signal, maneuveur" - it seems to be "maneuver, mirror, maybe signal"...

Tchhhh - kids today, get off my lawn, etc. etc.... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35980571

Wonder of they'll give the out campaign £9m to help put their case, in the interests of fairness.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Somehow l don't think they will..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To be clear the Government is behind a Remain vote and is campaigning for it alongside the Whitehall machinery. It has not sought to be a neutral observer in this as far as I am aware.

That said I agree it shouldn't be done or that public money should be spent equally between the sides (I think we should have publicly funded elections too). They did this during the Scottish Referendum too and, again I was on their side, I didn't like it then either.

I am not sure if the government should be neutral though. If they believe something is in the best interests of the nation should they keep quiet? I guess probably so because otherwise the civil servants are paid by us so it amounts to the same thing.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

I'll tell you what's worse. 'safe' drivers. People who think they're driving safely but act unpredictably, Stopping where there is no need to stop. People who stop to give way when it's their right of way obvious to the fact that the cars behind aren't expecting it. People who do 20 miles below the limit on a duel carriage way for no apparent reason other the perception slow speeds are always safer. Stopping before joining a roundabout when it's clear no one is on it as you approach.

Did they not used to teach this? When I learnt to drive the concept of being predictable and to consider other drivers was drilled into you. If you gave way when it's your right of way you would quite possibly fail there and then. Spending too long to join a roundabout about be a minor infraction for undue hesitation, as would driving too slow (and would be a major if you did it for too long).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

@ Damien - I don't expect HMG to be neutral, they want us to stay in, but I do expect that if taxpayer's money is involved they ought to at least make mention of some of the downsides of staying in. It'll be interesting to see whether they at least attempt some balance when presenting the argument.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People don't signal anymore simply because it makes them look soft.

it's a bit like a Chav saying excuse me, please and thank you.

his mates would laugh him out of town.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They do appear to be given some money to the Leave campaign but then it states the same money will given to the Remain campaign which makes it seem this is separate from those funds.

The thing is if HMG aren't neutral then we're paying civil servants to help political campaigning. I can see why they shouldn't be neutral but at the same time it makes me uneasy. Not really sure how to square that aspect of it.

Still this is obviously a bit much if they don't give the same chance to the Leave campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you don't like Dave vote OUT.
If you like puppies vote OUT.

I think most people will just vote OUT anyway. even though they hate Dave and love puppies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My great worry with you Gary is your predictions are generally well out as we have seen in the past.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But I've got my magic powers back. so I can control the future properly now :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes you actually stated it as if we're actual money rather than a hypothetical scenario, we know that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not quite what we've been asking for Dave, we wanted unbiased

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2016-0...to-every-home/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not a chance, can't have the unwashed oiks getting the truth, much better to remind them of the correct way to vote so they don't have to be creative later on in their attempts to ignore a vote to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I hope the public recognise this for what it is: A blatent waste of taxpayers money on yet another EU biased piece of propoganda.

If they do, it might help the leave campaign. People don't like politicians telling them what to do. Just look at the Dutch.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not a chance in hell. The same thing happened in the Scottish Referendum.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing that asking them again until they give the right answer won't resolve...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The dutch referendom was only granted after enough people signed a petition. It's result is only advisory, not binding, though it did make the >30% turnout needed to make it legitimate

The Dutch government has already passed the treaty anyway so they'll just plow on as usual with EU matters and ignore the result.

I could see Cameron doing the same if the vote was very narrow for Brexit. He's just that duplicitous.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes I did know about that but couldn't resist anyway. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our EU Referendum is NOT legally binding.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If that's true* I can see the last line of my post is the likely scenario. Dave won't care as he'll be gone before the next election. :(


*Do you have a link for that please?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In a leaflet that came through the door on what we should know about the EU referendum, and this was not from either camp, it isn't legally binding.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What leaflet? It may well be some one of the camps pretending not to be one of the camps. Look carefully at the small print as I am not sure who else would be paying for leafleting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's true, but it would be political suicide for either of the Houses of Parliament to vote the result down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cheers. So nope, not legally binding.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed it would. I think if Cameron loses the referendum there probably will be a GE or we'll be stuck with Osbourne as the former would have to resign.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

Nope. It's bliddy crazy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually, it's not - it's how our representative democracy works.

After the referendum, any leave motion still has to pass the two Houses of Parliament.

And there can only be a General Election if there is a No Confidence motion in the Government, or 2/3rds of MPs call for a GE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-...ments_Act_2011

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If any wants it here is a petition against the leaflet drop ,at 100,000 sigs it gets debated in the commons

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762

I've signed it as i feel it is the governments duty to provide both sides not influence one side

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't remember anyone complaining about the Government spending money to counter the Scottish Indie referendum talking points.

In both cases, it was Government policy to support staying in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Torys spend 9 million on leaflets and allocate 50 million on repairing pot holes councils need 1.1 billion - keep dodging the holes until you cannot anymore.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There was outrage from the Scottish Indy lot.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The great and good urging us to vote ‘in’ have been bought off by Brussels

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sorry, I meant from all the non-Scottish politicians, etc., who are now bloviating about it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Electoral Commission is not impressed:

http://order-order.com/2016/04/07/el...air-advantage/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah, people only see it as wrong when it affects their side.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

result
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...EU-leaflets-9m

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thank you. I've signed it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Signed. over 117,000 now. :)

Funny how they always use that picture of Cameron that looks like he's straining on a very big log.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Signed it as well as there should be fairness on both sides of the divide.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Won't be getting mine hopefully. I opt out of RM door to door (you can do it here:- https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...etail/a_id/293), although probably too late for this piece of propaganda, and my postie usually ignores my opt out anyway :(

Although I'm a 'Inner', it's outrageous public money is being used just to present one side of the argument. Can't believe the Electoral Commission is allowing it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I opted out of the RM junk mail and it stopped for a while but now it's as bad as ever. The propaganda can join the hate letters from TVL making compost. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As far as i'm concerned the government can spend what the electoral commission say they can ,what Camerons done is rush through an extra piece of campaigning to back his view before the proper campaigning period begins .The electoral commission should stop any more public money being used by the in campaign because they have already spent 2.5m of public money more than the commission said they could

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Surely HMG can defend its position without trying to give the impression that the only risks arise from leaving the EU. It'll be interesting to see whether this 'information' makes any attempt whatsoever to present the problems of staying in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This will be a singularly biased bit of scaremongering. If the electoral commission deem that the stay campaign have now shot their bolt, financially, then Brexit is home and dry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There are available grants for both camps. Apparently the Leave campaign is so factional that it is impossible to judge who should be given the funds.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...at-referendums

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually the official campaigns have not been decided yet (by the electoral committee) they will not be chosen until the middle of this month.

Both campaigns will get a £600,000 public grant with a spending limit of £7m, so on both counts Cameron has blown the budget

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. We should unite then we may have a better chance of winning a Brexit!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The spending limits only come into effect for a limited time period just before the referendum (it starts on the 15th of April), just like other elections.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is there any limit on how much taxpayer's money the IN side can spend on this beforehand?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

now daves been found out i think its over
deceiving people over money didn't see that coming ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which makes what he did even more cynical

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The "IN" side can't spend any taxpayers money beforehand they will only get the £600,000 to spend.

The Government is a different matter.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK, to rephrase the question, can HMG spend what they like promoting the IN campaign? If so it does rather make the whole thing rather less than fair doesn't it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

IIRC they will be given status as a campaigner for one side of the debate and they will be limited in what they can spend.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

After already spending £millions doing exactly that presumably?