Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

How Israel welcomes refugees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35475403

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

Looks like a shedload of trouble brewing up.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yep and further gives the lie to all that guff about deporting these people. They can't get rid of the illegals they already have let alone the thousands of new ones they're acquiring on a daily basis. They haven't the will or the mechanisms to do it and the longer they spin it out, the less likely any deportations will be. It's all just so much hot air to placate the increasingly angry masses. Honestly you listen to some of our politicians, commentators etc. and have to wonder about their sanity. They talk as if people are going to come here for a couple of years, see their children make friends, go to school etc. and then just quietly queue up to go home when we've decided it's safe. It's really not hard for anyone but the naïve or deluded to imagine the numerous legal actions/appeals plus the considerable anger and resentment which will inevitably ensue when people who've been here for several years are told they're going home to a pile or ruins? It's never going to happen.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The old trick of claiming to be homosexual is being used when asylum is claimed or rejected. They can't be sent back to muslim countries then.

(Tongue in cheek) Surely there must be a deserted island somewhere they could be sent?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Make them prove it! Pop them off to some of the seedier places in Brighton at night. :D

Here maybe? Equally tongue in cheek. :D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Is it any wonder that desperate people (whether genuine refugees, economic migrants or worse) would claim virtually anything in order to avoid being sent back? Whether the basis of an asylum claim is age, sexuality, religion, 'persecution' or whatever, it's easy to make stuff up but much harder to disprove it. The days when migrants weren't aware of how to play the system are long gone.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am a great believer in saying that, the UK is a free for all. But, the UK must draw a line on what we can, or cannot do, in this matter.

At the moment we are allowing migrants to come to the UK, either in the back of a lorry, or coming through normal channels.

Several years ago, we were informed by the Government that they don't even know, how many have come into the country and disappeared without trace.

But now the government have told us, that they are prepared to send OUR money to families overseas in benefit money.

So its ok for the government to do that, whereas they are deducting benefit money to the own people. And making the poor even poorer.

Cameron and Co, should take care of the own people first, and stop migrants coming in to this country, until its done 100% properly

As at the moment, its a total farce:(

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No we're not Arthur, this is why we have sniffer dogs, Co2 detectors, heat sensors etc at border ports.

Interesting article by the way...

http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...ants-migration

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

10-Year-Old Boy Brutally Raped By Iraqi Migrant at Pool in Vienna

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-euro...rnsey-35511771

Guernsey sounds promising :)

Does anyone else hate the term 'islamphobia', why do you never hear about 'christianphobia' 'budhisaphobia' or 'hinduisaphobia'

Made up term by leftie luvvies to frighten people.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Shocking! :mad:

Who could have foreseen anything like this happening when Merkel opened the floodgates? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 14:23 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------

They just love branding anyone who disagrees with them. It's all they have left when they've lost the argument.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

There may be those that go on about "Islamophobia", but what is there really to like about Islam in the first place?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am starting to develop a fear of islam, or at least the nasty parts of it. So I am becoming islamophobic.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Big problem the west have the is regressive left that have turned a blind eye to the islamists even as far as allowing children to be raped to not bring unwanted attention to islam.

if anyone is interested Dave Rubin interviewed Tommy Robinson, enlightening watch. Youtube

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The solution to the problem will have to be in Syria: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...n-supply-lines

We are witnessing the mass evacuation of an entire country.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes and no amount of welcomes can accommodate all these people. We need to act fast and get resources into these areas to contain the situation.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Thanks for that. Interesting :tu:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What do you think about Russ's interesting article?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'm thinking that whether you are an expat or an immigrant depends on which country you are in at the time. I can't talk about British immigrants in Spain because I'm in Britain, not Spain whilst I'm talking about it. If I was in Spain I would talk about British immigrants and if I was living there I would think of myself as an immigrant.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I hope you don't mind if I give my view on the article.

I didn't read it, I got as far as the headline with the picture of stereotypical British pensioners that have emigrated to Spain. At that point the newspaper had no argument!

These stereotypical pensioners have generally worked all their lives, saved, contributed to a pension, bought a house and then sold their assets to buy a villa and live their remaining days in a warm climate.

Apart from perhaps increasing house prices for the locals I feel that these people differ greatly from economic migrants from poorer countries.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

There is that as well :tu:

Meanwhile, the fight back is beginning: PEGIDA in Europe

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't see all these awful expat Brits* causing the sort of problems in Spain that we're seeing all over Europe. Commentators comparing them with the economic migrants which are cynically taking advantage of a refugee crisis is plain nonsense but such is the paucity of their argument...

(* as opposed to drunken holiday yobs who've been sold far too much booze)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Britain 'faces influx of 50,000 asylum seekers' if it leaves the European Union
Cameron really is scaremongering for all he's worth. :dozey:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Using immigration to scare people? How outrageous! :D

Incidentally this isn't exactly a scenario that hasn't been thought of before. We were talking about this just the other day: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...l#post35820049

The agreement though is not part of the EU. It is however something we would want to keep. Having the border in Calais is very useful for us. We would want to make sure it's something we will always have EU or no-EU.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

How many thousands are already getting in via our 'secure' borders every year and how many will we eventually be 'told' to take in if we remain in the EU?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Scarmongering for all he's worth. It's pathetic.

If we lost this agreement then surely the correct thing to do is to fine the ferry, aircraft, train and tunnel operators say £10,000 per illegal migrant that they transport into the country. I'm sure that would make them very vigilent. :D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That article is a load of crap, I've seen 100's of thousands of white Europeans called immigrants in the last few years on TV in the news in the papers in general conversation. From Poland , Latvia, Ukraine. America has a large white Italian immigrant population. The White Irish immigrants.....

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What can actually be done about the migration crisis anyway? At the moment 35,000 people are at Turkey's borders, Aleppo in Syria is hemorrhaging citizens and Libya isn't in great shakes either.

The whole thing is will only get further out of control and I think there is a feeling that we're at the precipice of something quite bad unless a radical solution is found.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve last year:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I had that feeling when I started this thread... ;)

There are no easy solutions but allowing vast numbers of economic migrants and even refugees to effectively choose where they go was always going to be a big mistake and the direct cause of even more problems. Like it or not, we have to be resolute in protecting our/Europe's borders and making as much provision as we reasonably can to assist genuine refugees massing on or near those borders. At the very least, showing that economic migrants will not benefit from swelling the numbers by being allowed into the EU under false pretences should reduce the amount willing to make the trip in the first place.

Given the huge numbers, the best thing we can do for genuine refugees is to provide safe haven as close to the home nations as reasonably possible. Secure camps well provided with food, water, services etc. When the fighting stops, we're then going to need to help these people move back to their homes and start to rebuild their lives. What we can't do sadly is allow everyone who's a refugee, desperate or vulnerable to start a new life in Europe. We're already seeing the inevitable consequences of that and it isn't pleasant.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am wondering how long before we confront the idea that we may need to go into Syria with a view that we'll be staying there a long time. The numbers are so large at this point that the best place to accommodate them all is in their existing homes.

More immediately maybe it makes sense for an EU enforced border at it's edges. A cross-nation funded and manned border rather than expecting the fringe states to do it themselves. That might also mean troops on the ground at the common sailing points in Northern Africa too....

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Boots on the ground are inevitable, it's just a question of whose. I know it's the fashion for people to want to do stuff remotely but someone is going to have to intervene in the manner that the UN and NATO should have done in Srebrenica 20 years ago.

Sadly we're also going to have to be a lot more diligent in identifying those who'd seek to do us harm and economic migrants. Given the circumstances, if I were a refugee feeling a war zone (as opposed to a migrant seeking a better life or a budding terrorist) I'd understand and accept why measures such as these would have to be taken by those tasked with the job of helping me and my loved ones.

I'm still waiting for confirmation that any of the celebrity great and good who jumped on the holier than thou bandwagon and promised to take in refugees have actually kept their word and helped anyone. They seem to have gone the same way as Euro proponents but maybe they're all just keeping their humanitarian works a secret so as not to embarrass the rest of us... :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Doubt it whilst Russia is backing the regime.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Boots on the ground in terms of personnel whose task is to protect and serve the 'safe zones' required for the refugees. As I said, just what the UN personnel were supposed to be doing in Srebrenica. These zones would obviously not be within the actual conflict areas but as close to them as reasonably practicable and safe. They could well be in neighbouring countries like Turkey. There's no shortage of empty space out that way - just a shortage of facilities and personnel to run them.

Ground forces getting directly involved in all the fighting would clearly not be a good idea.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I understand that Turkey has declared a safe zone for the Turkmen. Maybe this was the area overflown by the Russian plane that they shot down?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Some decisive action at last!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35549478

Ahh....

I don't suppose they'll get drawn into picking up more migrants at all...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So instead of the migrants scuttling their craft close to shore, they'll do it close to patrol ships. And maritime law says you must stop and rescue them. Let's hope the fixed policy will be to return them to Turkey.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Some bleeding hearts will expect them to be transported to their chosen destination.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It would be better to stop them getting on the boats at various crossing points. Once they're collected by the NATO ships then you have to work out what to do with them. Why would Turkey be happy with this arrangement?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Turkey is receiving large bribes from the EU to stem the flow, that's why their inward borders are shut perhaps?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

We're going to need a lot of migrants in near future. We already have schools scouting for teachers to replace the ones quitting thanks to Michael Gove and Nicky Morgan, we'll be needing doctors to replace the ones leaving thanks to Jeremy Hunt's handiwork in the not too distant future.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Those are the immigrants we want, it's the countless millions of unskilled anti-social ones that are swarming in that's the problem.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'd prefer we keep those we spend tens of thousands educating to be honest.

I know a Canadian teacher who was recruited and came to the UK. About a term later she'd had enough.

We'll struggle to retain anyone recruited from the first world, and everyone else if they've sense will be here no longer than they need to be before going elsewhere to a less hostile environment where they aren't begrudged their salary and are treated like professionals rather than unskilled labour.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If we're properly in charge of our own borders and immigration policy we'll be able to pick and choose who we want to come to the UK whether they be highly skilled professionals or lower skilled tradespeople we might be suffering a shortage of. As harsh as it may seem, the last thing we need is countless thousands of people who have very little to offer at present, will inevitably soak up much needed services and resources* (such as housing, health care, education etc.) and who may well even come to express their dissatisfaction or frustration with real life in the UK by the sort of behaviour we've seen in large parts of Europe.

* not necessarily through any fault of their own.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Meanwhile, in la-la land

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The high profile Imam needs to accept that there is a different culture, and it is the one of the country he is resident in, which does not accept the notion of child brides...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You know as well as I do that to people like this Imam acceptance of different cultures and tolerance to their customs only goes one way.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Well, frakk him then, and he should move to a country where his 'culture' is accepted.

I'm not a big fan of moral relativism...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

And this is just the kind of sporadic example that the extreme right will bring up time and time again when they're low on alternative ammunition.

I don't doubt there are attitudes like this out there (a democracy means all views including those we find offensive and repugnant are permitted to be held) just as we get groups on our streets demanding Sharia Law in the UK, they're clearly the minority (wanting a country to adopt a theological idea is one thing, trying to take action towards it are two very different things) but exactly what Britain First and the like will selectively 'report' on when we need another round of immigrant-bashing.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It seems to me that female genital mutilation is an example of a fairly widespread cultural practice which has been, until recently, turned a blind eye to so as not to offend certain communities. I think the west in general has been rather too accommodating of practices which are alien to it and this is one reason why integration hasn't been all that successful IMHO. Perhaps that's a subject for another thread however. :shrug:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't think that, at the moment, they are low on alternative ammunition. Every day brings new reports of muslim shenanigans.....

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

And of course, given the huge numbers, there'll be other groups/nationalities involved in undesirable behaviour of one sort or another. Sometimes this will be a result of nothing more than quite understandable desperation. However, we can't deny that there are those whose intentions are to take advantage of the situation in any way they can and have no intention of obeying our laws, let alone respecting our values and integrating.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Quite, and agreed. Basic decency, centred around respect for others and taught by the golden rule of treating others as you'd have them treat you, is a universal human trait. Any belief system that violates this as brazely as that his culture is based on should be criticised.

Sadly such things are, apparently, racist.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

You may find this an interesting read.

This is also eye-opening.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Why is it anything that's not left is always regarded as 'extreme right'

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

It was only a matter of time. :(

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It's part of the lefties brainwashing process. Anyone not exactly in line with their thinking is either a NAZI, thug, racist, xenophobe or "islamophobic". Or all of these.

Just look at any demonstration, with or without a counter demonstration, and look at which group always gets short shrift from the police and media.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Maybe because the 'right' don't do anything in half measures? ;)

Cheers

Grim

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If that was aimed at myself I was referring to the actual 'extreme right'.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

Again, both I have issues with as neither reflect my own experiences living and working around Muslims and other faiths.

I'm not denying what's in print but it's tough for me to get on board if it's something I simply don't recognise.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No just a general observation, not aimed at anyone. I'm quite good at being specific with anyone I have issue with.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Don't worry though because back in Eurolalaland the Greeks have been given an ultimatum to sort out their borders:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35559159

Or what?

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

Yes, a valid general observation too IMHO. :tu:

All sorts of extreme language and insults have been routinely used to brand anyone who dared to express any concerns, however coherent, about this issue. Thankfully, it's been exposed for the nasty, debate stifling, tactic it is and what's unfolding in front of our eyes in Europe serves to illustrate just how right those with concerns about uncontrolled migration were and still are.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Wtf

"One girl was assaulted so badly she looked like she had been scalped, others thrown down stairs beaten up while hundreds panicked and were running for safety."

"Slovakian children had weapons that would cause severe injury while teachers locked themselves with some students in classrooms while one teacher was headbutted another pregnant teacher feared for her and her unborn.

Sounds like they should be patrolling inside the school, especially as the headmaster has tried to cover it up

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Well the Austrian 'welcome' seems to have gone the way many others have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35609823

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If that rate continued with no increase until the end of the year, that's close to .6 million people - just at that point.

600 thousand people+.

wow just wow.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It will though increase... Warmer weather means more people will attempt the crossing

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

Take cover!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You couldn't make this up could you! Security? What security?

What's it going to take for those who, even now, argue that we should leave the gates open to see sense I wonder? I have a nasty feeling that, once the damage is well and truly done, the self righteous, morally superior beings who couldn't see beyond the end of their noses in offering their welcomes will be as thin on the ground as Euro proponents. The professional celebrity saints have already come and gone I notice - disingenuous offers of hospitality shouted out from the social media rooftops quietly forgotten about now the sad reality is evident. Quelle surprise... :rolleyes:

I really do wish the celebrity luvvies would get off their diamond studded soap boxes and put some of their money where their big mouths are. As it is, they seem to prefer telling the rest of us what we need to do to feel worthy before putting drowned migrants out of their minds and heading off to their private estates, beanfests and ceremonies for yet more lavish self-congratulation to feed their egos.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35617232

When is a welcome not a welcome...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35624118

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

refugees from a war zone? :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35633471

Sadly we're only going to see more of this I believe.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

When such things happen you can use the words "cold hearted, cowardly, racist. intolerant" but those word no longer matter. No one cares, for 10 years we've seen people called racist and intolerant. An the SJW's use these terms so often they took the meaning away.

The hard left abused those terms to the point we just don't care, once if I was called a racist I would of been horrified and took steps to show I wasn't. Now call me racist if you want but I know I'm not and I don't care who thinks different. More and more people think the same, they're only words.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Unfortunately, our politicians don't seem to have the common sense to come up with ideas like that.

We hear a lot about security and protecting ourselves from ISIS but if the Schengen zone border security is this bad we could well be hearing of more attacks in Europe.

I'm thankful for the fact we are an island and have a better concept of security than the EU as the Russian air force keeps finding out.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The whole point about Schengen was that there is no borders within the EU. The security is handled by the external borders. Fantastic idea in a perfect world but as we know the world is far from perfect.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Bit like communism/socialism.....and there are enough feckwhits about willing to give that one more try :D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Not really.. Soviet Union had more internal borders that any Europe had

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Relying just on external borders to provide security is not a good idea as the security provided by different countries varies in quality putting the whole Schengen area at risk.

This was demonstrated by the invasion of Greece and Italy by Syrian refugees, who were allowed through various EU countries without the necessary registrations and checks being made.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They say a chain is only a strong as its weakest link and remind me which countries are at the sharp end of the migration chaos? The EU is effectively relying on the likes of Greece for its border security. Great!

Another half baked, poorly implemented, idiotic policy courtesy of the EU...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Thankfully with have the English channel between us and the rest of Europe. Now I have heard that some of the migrants/refugees are moving towards Holland, the only means of getting to Blighty from there is by ship.

I believe that the Tory's Out Mob have a plan to heighten security for this country based on the 1939 defence plan of this country. Have barges, ships, oil drums laden with fuel and diesel stationed along the South East Coast just in case of migrants or ISIL try to invade from France by boat/rubber dinghy. Also there are plans to station artillary guns along the entire coast with barage balloons erected in case they try to hang-glide over.

:D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yep, I never though said it was a good idea, unless we have our perfect world..

Which as asylum seekers they should be registered in Greece or Italy, still that means we can reject them and deport them back to whichever country of first entry. Just because we're not in Schengen the rules cover first point of entry until we leave the EU, then I'm not sure where we would stand in deporting them.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Too many of the EU ideas, eg free movement and Schengen tend to look Ok with the make-up of the EU at the time, but then more countries are added and it turns into a big mess.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35639858

Why are the being allowed to move on? Why are they being allowed to remain in France having refused to claim asylum there and been involved in repeated illegality? What sort of system would allow this to happen? European borders under siege by people who're hell bent on breaching our security and disrespecting our laws. As usual there are plenty of questions about the goings on within the EU and precious few reassuring answers...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Sorry. I was commenting on your last sentence about the some ideas being fantastic in theory but rubbish in practice.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

Coming to a town near you. I'm sure they'll integrate nicely. :erm:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Asylum Seeker Raped Young Migrant Shelter Employee After He Received Anti-Rape Training........

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Quite.

Who was it who believed they would? Honestly, why did anyone ever think that huge groups of desperate people of different faiths, cultures etc. wouldn't clash sooner or later? Who was it who believed that this would never be allowed to happen in Europe? Who was it who told the rest of us we were scaremongering when we dared to point this out? Where are these people now? Moved on to their next grand cause I imagine...

---------- Post added at 18:44 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Odd how so many of these people reckon they're under 16 isn't it... :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Wtf is anti rape training and why would any country accept any refugee that requires training not to rape someone, he should be told to sod of back to whatever hell hole he crawled out of once he's done some prison time as he and that place are clearly suited.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What he said.

I've never heard anything like it... 'anti rape training... ffs has the World gone mad??

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

Must be a definition of "success" that I was previously unaware of.:erm:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35657054

More crisis meetings to debate more abject EU failure.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35658776

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

No wonder the country seems to be full of foreigners. :(

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes well parts of it are. I remember having that debate with Charles Kennedy years ago. He went quiet when I pointed out that his constituency wasn't quite as affected by mass migration as those he was pontificating about.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

More detail here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35658731

They're right aren't they? We're seeing this across Europe and it's going to happen here. The worst effects of excessive migration might be being masked here slightly since our economy is at least still growing but it doesn't take a genius to work out that if/when things go bad and unemployment starts to rise, big trouble will follow.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35675223

Welcome to the EU madhouse.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The whole world is a mad house...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I imagine that they want to get into the UK before the EU referendum just in case the UK public vote to leave and we impose restrictions.

If we vote to stay it won't seem that the country is full of foreigners. It actually will be!!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35684093

I know who I reckon they Greeks feel is responsible for the mess tbey're in and they're not going ot forget it in a hurry.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It was unrealistic to expect that economies as diverse as the German & Greek economies could support the Euro.

It was far more realistic when each country had and could support its own currency.

If we do do exit the EU I wonder what the effect will be on the Euro and who will step up to fill the space created by the non-payment of the British EU contribution.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The real problem was that Greece couldn't support it's own currency, no matter what that was. If the Greeks hadn't been so irresponsible before and especially after joining the Euro, they might have been in a better state than they are now.