Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

l agree benefit fraud is wrong in all its forms and should be totally dealt with but the trouble is that the vast majority in this country see people who claim benefits as scroungers because sadly through the media and politicians many have formed their uneducated and prejudiced views of all benefit claimants when it is only a tiny minority who fleece the system.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Look at it like Council Tax.

you get told that this and that service is what you pay council tax for. and why it's so high.

then they start taking stuff out. and start charging separately for it. and in some cases say it was never part of your council tax. it was a freebie!

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

How the hell can tax avoidance cost the country anything ?it is money that the treasury is not entitled to .Tax evasion is money the treasury is entitled to so that costs the country around £5.1billion .I would also doubt those figures because HMRC say the entire tax gap which includes evasion,avoidance,smuggling,fraud and errors stands at £35billion(11-12 tax year),specifically avoidance "costs" around £4billion through avoidance schemes some of which will be ruled illegible and some will be allowed

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Nope. The proceeds of 'aggressive' tax avoidance schemes are considered as money the treasury is entitled to - which is why Barlow and company now have tax bills.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Only after a ruling ,at which point it ceases to be avoidance and becomes a tax liability ,prior to any ruling HMRC have no claim on any money because of course the avoidance scheme could be ruled legitimate such as the UBS scheme

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Please see the Ramsay principle. I didn't say all avoidance but 'aggressive' avoidance, which falls foul potential both of the Ramsay principle and GAAR, amongst other things.

It's tax avoidance, it's legal, it's money the treasury should have been entitled to if not for said avoidance, and the appropriate legal order has been made to compel its payment.

Anyway, all semantics and rather pointless. Doing things purely to avoid tax isn't nice and the tax code needs fixing as it is a complicated mess. That Mr PAYE pays a higher marginal tax rate than those who are super-rich is a joke but unsurprising. They can pay accountants to help them reduce their liabilities.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

but don't you think that is a deliberate choice on the part of our law-makers? As so many of them are seriously wealthy they need to leave themselves tax loopholes and simplifying the code could cost them some mega-money.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

exactly corrupt self serving politicians make the laws not for the betterment of the country but for themselves

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It's money the Treasury would have expected to receive.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Hundreds of thousands hit by benefits backlog.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27796739

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No one is willing to take responsibility, hopefully teflon IDS will get his comeuppance one day, well one can only wish.

I wonder if they still plan on the change over next October. I think it'll get a whole lot worse than it is now without any guarantee of getting any better. What a waste of money all this is.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I didn't think anyone could apply for that now as PIP had replaced it. Obviously it's even further behind than IDS has admitted to the last few times he has defended his failures.

IDS and Atos should be buried alive, then buried again. They are just going to blame each other while forgetting about the disabled people waiting.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

PIP replaces DLA

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

ESA is replacing Incapacity benefit, and PIP is replacing Disability Living Allowance (DLA).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That stuff is so confusing, dunno how any navigates the benefits system these days.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And they are doing that in limited numbers at the moment and are still making a balls up so god help us when that goes fully national.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

Atos have pulled out of the ESA but whoever replaces them will be just as bad one suspects.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27767779

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...lapse-benefits

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Ultimately I think this is what it boils down. The Conservatives wanted all the benefits cut and told Atos what to do and how to do it, then used them to take all the blame.

I heard the horror stories from all corners regarding Atos and they were indeed bad. We will never likely learn exactly what orders were given to Atos top brass from the government due to non-disclosure agreements and business sensitivity reasons. Still have a gut feeling they were following orders and did so happily just to get the contract and profits. So Atos can't be excused either

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I agree totally

I said they were a pawn in a game right from the start

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The benefits system, hell anything run by the government, is a mess.
Claiming benefits in this day and age should be easy, but it's stupidly complex and stressful
I often wonder how many people who claim for mental illness conditions, end up killing themselves due to the stress, or at the very least, get much worse
I know I got a lot worse with the worry and stress of claiming and waiting on decisions.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not a very good system is it, the waiting time for a decision is far to long as it seems to cause many alot of added stress therefore making their condition/illness worse, they really do need to sharpen up there decision time IMO.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

To do that, they would need to hire more staff, and everybody complains about the numbers of civil servants..............

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Or maybe the DWP should just ask the persons GP for their opinion on whether they are fit to work.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

To be fair GPs generally are pretty useless. There has to be a system in place that checks to see if the patient is as bad as they make out. I would rather see claimants seeing doctors at DWP medicals with some sort of specialty in the field for which the diagnosis is made.

IE someone with a bad back sees someone with a grounding in osteopathy and someone with a mental illness sees someone knowledgeable in psychiatric problems

Just seeing a general nurse or just another GP is not going to find the cheats and it is going to lead to mis diagnosis and hardship

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If it weren't for the thieves who claim what they don't need or are entitled to it could be much easier. The system is complex because it needs to identify those crooks but the problem is that it's those very crooks who know best how to get through the system while those who really need it get held up with all the red-tape and rules.
Most who really need the benefits are honest but also likely to have issues with the system. The best system would be to simply enter in the help you need and you'd get it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But if a patient is suffering from a physical or mental illness, they should already be registered with a medical professional, it should all be on record, so maybe they should trust the professional in whatever field they work, to be correct with their diagnosis of the patient.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Why not if it is an obvious case and hospital records can back things up why do these people have to wait? If for example they have mental health issues or an illness where stress can make it worse why not fast track these conditions that can be made worse by stress. What is the average waiting time for a reply to benefits anyway? It seems reading this post that it is extremely difficult to receive benefits although certain newspapers say the opposite.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The problem with using evidence from GPs is that it will be based mainly on what the patient says. The GP will accept what is said as being the truth, as there would be no reason for the patient to lie. When it comes to benefit decisions, the patients do potentially have a reason to lie.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I agree, If you've only got evidence from a GP then I'd say there can't be much wrong with you.

It should be different if you are under a consultant or a number of them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But the GP should have all copies of letters and much more information shared by other medical professionals on their systems. So all of the evidence that would backup their patients claims should be right there.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not as simple as that. All any consultants letter to a GP will say is the diagnosis etc, and not how the patient might be affected by any condition.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And that's why its so important to write down on the forms how their medical condition or conditions affects them on a daily basis.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But where does the "evidence" for that come from?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You ask your GP for a supporting letter stating how the condition affects you on a daily basis plus you send in copies of all your hospital letters plus your benefit form.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And as I said, they can get this same information directly from the patients GP.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It's not about the disability/sickness, it's about it's effect on the person's day to day life.

https://www.gov.uk/pip/eligibility

How could the doctor know if they needed help with

preparing or eating food
washing, bathing and using the toilet
dressing and undressing
reading and communicating
managing your medicines or treatments
making decisions about money
engaging with other people

Claimants don't get benefit because they are disabled, they get benefit for the (negative) effects the disability has.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But it's the disability/sickness that causes the negative effect in their life isn't it...

They should have that information on record, my GP knows exactly how my disabilities / sickness effect me and what I need help with in my day to day life.

That doesn't make sense to me, if the person wasn't disabled or sick, then surely they wouldn't be making claims for PIP to help them in their day to day life.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Atos apparently fined by the DWP. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...r-9529005.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Loving the way ATOS are the scapegoats for running a government ordained policy

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Makes perfect sense ,if disabled people got payed for the disability then i would be getting paid ,as it is i don't get a bean because modern medicine manages my disease very well and allows me work, at the moment the effects of the disease on my daily life are minimal so no disability payments which is exactly as it should be .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Someone with cerebral palsy could function pretty close to someone without it while another person with palsy could be completely dependant on a carer. The same could be said for things like aspergers. If you suffered from aspie symptoms but had no formal diagnosis, I would expect it would be hard to claim even though it should be based on symptoms rather than the name of the disability. A gp might not pick up on someone with aspergers unless it's one of the obvious cases. That's if the person actually goes to the gp. Some people have hardly ever been to see their gp. Some depressed people might not bother too. So there would be no GP records about these kind of people, so nothing to back them up if they say they have a mental disability and try to claim for it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think that's why they don't bother contacting GP's anymore, or they don't take the GP's diagnosis into account in their decisions.
Out of the four GP's at my local practice, only ONE was actually genuinely interested in helping me.
It took years, to get the help I needed.
Dealing with ATOS just makes things a lot worse, because all they did for me at least, was run through a pre written checklist/script.
The problem is the government doesn't make a point of keeping checks on people on benefits.
If someone is ill, they should be making sure the person is getting treatment and help, but they don't
From experience, they just sit back and let people take in a weekly/fortnightly giro or direct debit from the tax payer, without a worry.
The problem with that is, if you're suffering with a mental condition and you are allowed to sit at home all day, everyday, getting money from the government with no intervention or help, you get used to it and you're in the wrong state of mind anyways, so you end up accepting that as the norm and you feel almost comfortable doing what others perceive as leeching off tax payers, because no one, not even your GP, wants to get you the help you need.
It took me years to get the help I needed, because all my GP's wanted to do, was keep dishing out drugs and saying "come back in 6 months if you don't get better".

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Ah the old "come back in six months" I remember it so well that's all I got off the first consultant I was referred too diagnosing me with the easiest fit he could come up with whilst filling in his golf diary. Joke is if he'd done his job I would have been able to work for most of the last thirteen years instead of having to live on benefit and might possibly still be working, the hate I have for that man is still as raw now as it was then.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Pip's much better for Osem Jnr #2 as, unlike DLA, it recognises the manner in which his disabilities actually affect and restrict him. So far it's a great bit :tu: from us.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Let's hope it helps many other's who need it too. My friend has Crohns and she had to appeal to get her DLA and while waiting for the appeal it made her illness worse with the stress it caused them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That appears to be one of the major issues at the moment, going through the process is extremely stressful and some people who should be getting it just give up. I know someone who clearly has problems but had to fight and appeal for almost two years before he got the DLA. Had such a big lump sum in the end they had to spend some of it quickly otherwise they would have had some other benefit stopped for having more savings than they were allowed. Have a feeling these back payments pay for quite a few holidays which are needed to get over the stress caused to get as far as a payment.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Disability benefits system has 'grave' flaws, MPs warn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28437630

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Cuts being "considered" to sickness benefits.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29821696

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

"Its ok it'll only hit the right people and those assessed correctly will have nothing to worry about". That will be the party and media line and the UK public will go right along with it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If only that was the case Rizzy.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm due a re-assessment in November and was planning to call to see if that's still happening (had no letters or anything). Trouble is I'm not sure I can get anywhere as noone seems to know what's going on.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not sure why anyone would want to force the issue of a re-assessment. As long as you still get paid I'd leave it to them to sort it out.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

They never gave me a re-assessment date and just put me in the support group dilli.

From what l read the system is in a state of chaos but that's not unusual.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If they decide to go ahead with the cuts, this list will surely get a lot bigger...

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/201...ber-21st-2014/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

They keep coming back for more and more.

they see no reaction and take some more.
they get the backing from the sheep and they take some more.
they won't stop till there's nothing.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That's just it though I know a couple of my friends at my blind group who just stopped getting paid. They didn't get paperwork (which the DWP said they sent) so couldn't send it back.

I'd rather have the paperwork and send it back than find out by the money just stopping.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I've not heard of this before. If you're in the WRAG group, then it could stop (if it's contribution based) but not when you're in the support group.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

They, like me, are indeed in the contribution based support group. So yup it can happen.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

There is no time limit to where you can he in the support group as such. The work related group is for 1 year and can stop after that. I haven't heard of anyone having their money stopped without notice whilst in the support group. I can't find much info online either.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well I've heard of it twice now and it's not happening to me. I have to call them anyway as I have a new doctor so I'll ask them if I'm due to be re-assessed while I'm speaking to them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Here`s an advert for staff required for Esa assessments .
http://www.pertemps.co.uk/jobs/89810...b-in-liverpool
They cant seem to spell professional right on the header.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I've just told them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well if they drop the ESA payments, I hope they also drop the requirement to pay towards council housing rent (which JSA recipients don't).

But knowing this lot, they'll just make JSA recipients start paying towards council housing rent.

:(

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

As far as I am aware you can only be in the support group for up to a maximum of 36 months based on any single assessment. You can be reassessed at any time, any number of times, during a spell in the support group.

The current system appears to be in such chaos that many offices are using ordinary CS decision makers to reassess claimants based solely on information already held.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You are correct, 3 years is the max before being reassessed, though 2 seems to be the norm. It's well know that if you're in the WRAG group income based then 6 monthly assessment is very common.

I've spent a bit of time trying to find some evidence of payments being stopped whilst in the support group for those that are due to be assessed and I still can't find anything. (Not saying it doesn't happen, just no info is available).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Wouldn't you expect your payments to stop if you didn't send / hand your renewal paperwork in?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well yes, that's a given. If the DWP are lying about sending out forms then that's something else. I know I got either a letter or a telephone as a reminder that the form needs to be in so not getting either of those nor for the forms x2 seems very odd. Unless it's down to the post of course.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I don't know if the DWP are lying and to be fair I doubt it - and if it was just the once then I'd have left it at that but for it to happen twice to people I know seems odd indeed.

edit - the last time I did it all I had a phone call then a letter.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Sadly, and wrongly. This is the way the government will make cutbacks to save money.
In the view if you can move any part of your body, walk, laugh and talk, no matter how ill you are.
You can work, for a pittance of a wage.

The government will force people back to work, this is why the unemployment's figures are going down.

I my son is disabled - through autism and Asperger. He is trying to find work but no one will employ him.

He is on countless agencies, but no one has offered him work - as they feel they cannot offer him anything.

Yes, he wants to become an actor. But he tried a scheme from the JC. And it was working for a clothing company in a shop - for NOTHING for a week. They claimed it was job experience. He was left on his own, all day.

The government always hit the sick and disabled, its cruel. And what makes me sick is that Tory voters will always back these idea's.

What we should be doing, if saying, why doesn't the government stop people coming into this country and conning the voter of this country.

I read on Monday that immigrants that come into this country, get £35.00 - WHY.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It doesn't matter what's been said, the sick / disabled is the easiest target, it's immune from any kind of scandal it causes and IDS seems to get away with everything he does.

But touch child support for those on 40k-60k oh what a different kettle of fish it is.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If the current rate of case reviews continues at the present level, it will take 38 years to complete.

Because they are so far behind, many new claims for ESA are being simply shoved into the Support Group and reviews are being waved through.

This, the mess that they have made of trying to introduce Universal Credit and the transference of claimants from DLA to PIP has caused them to be spending more and not less as intended on sickness/disability benefits.

I think that the reasons that they will try to cut ESA will be to simply balance the books ie making sick and disabled people pay for their mistakes. If these proposals were in place today, affected ESA recipients would receive the equivalent of JSA + 50p.

To give people an idea of the severity of these cuts, the current rates of JSA for single people are £51.75 for people aged 18 to 24 and £71.40 for those aged 25 and over.

I was part of an advisory/consultation body to the Government on welfare reform. Time and time again the Government were urged to test out new systems and take things slowly.

They ignored many of our recommendations and went ahead anyway, believing that they knew best.

Despite all these obvious problems, Ian Duncan Smith is still spouting on that Universal Credit will be introduced on time. Even DWP staff are anonymously talking to the media about a lack of training, IT systems that don't work etc.

I've never known the social security system in this country to be in such a mess.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

This sounds like asylum seekers. They receive the normal JSA rates, minus 40%. To these people this is still a lot of money and is paid in full by the British taxpayer as these people haven't paid anything into the system and are not allowed to work.

Whilst I agree that the social security budget has to be brought under control, I don't think that targetting the most vulnerable in our country is the right way to do it. They could make a start by stopping the sending of Child Benefit abroad to the families of EU migrants for children that have never set foot in this country.

Action should be taken to deal with families where generations have never worked and where women have child after child expecting us to pay for it. Ultimately, I believe that in the most extreme cases the Government will have to consider forced sterilisation. Such families have become an underclass who contribute nothing to society or themselves. These people give genuine benefit claimants a bad name and need to be taught that having children is a privilage and not a right.

I also believe that all immigrants should be screened for diseases that are dangerous to us and costly to the NHS. For the first time in years, the number of cases of AIDS has increased, mostly due to immigrants arriving here with the disease.

Ascertainment should also be sought as to what immigrants* are going to BRING to the UK, as opposed to how we can help them- no matter how dire their circumstances are. We are not and can never be a world social security system. *The issue of EU immigrants is problematic, unless reform or withdrawal is considered.

The Government has decided that it is not only the unemployed who should look for work, but also most sick and disabled people, their carers and lone parents with a child over school age.

Where are all these jobs going to come from, especially if immigration is not brought under control??

I believe that the Government know that there aren't the jobs for all these people and just want to reduce their benefits.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

A) nice to see eugenics rearing it's ugly head again....

B) re AIDS stats - do you have a link for your assertion, as the latest National HIV Surveillance Stats show a year on year decrease in both HIV and AIDS diagnoses.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...iv-data-tables 1st spreadsheet on the page, tab ND 1A-3

HIV diagnoses have gone from 7892 in 2005 to 6000 in 2013, and AIDS diagnoses from 978 in 2005 to 319 in 2013.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Everybody knows that already.

a vast amount of people agree with it.
a vast amount of people would be happy that they didn't receive any money at all.

a vast amount of people don't realise just how dumb they really are.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Blinking nora, Eugene. :erm:

Having children is a biological imperative, a religious observance, a human right ... take your pick of any or all of those. It is also a privilege, but not by virtue of it having been granted or withheld by the State.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Whilst what you say is correct, what are we to do about these feckwhits who keep having kids without the private means to support them?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The easy option would be to pay (benefits) for the 1st child, 1/2 for the 2nd child and nowt onwards.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

As others have said - by limiting the State handouts available. It won't eliminate the problem entirely but it will certainly have an impact.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Rent the kids out for days at the park and zoo.

or make the parents sweep the street and make cups of tea for the neighbours.

or get them to work in Tescos for free.

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

Gone are the days when a family would go down the dole office and threaten to leave the baby there if they don't get no money today.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The trouble is these people know their kids also amount to a bargaining chip. So as well as ensuring certain additional benefits they're also the key to better housing and the state will rightly not want to punish the children for the actions of their so called parents.

I watched a programme about High Court enforcement officers last night. It highlighted a couple with 6 kids who'd paid no rent for 10 months and had, for reasons best known to themselves, turned the newly refurbished house they were renting into a filthy tip in that short time. One of the staff commented on how it was often the case that they'd go into properties like this and find all sorts of expensive consumer goods (and indeed this place was equipped with large TVs, apple laptop, xbox, etc. etc.) whilst the kids would be living in total squalor. We all know these people aren't the majority but they are the core of the problem and they know that having kids will put them on the top of the pile when it comes to housing, services and benefits. What do we do about people like this?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Without punishing the children more so, I don't think there is anything you can do about it, hence limiting these pay outs from a set date onwards would or could hopefully stop this from happening again in the future.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I seriously just look at them as people living their lives.
there's not much you can do about them.
if you look at it as they're costing us money. then you will have a problem about it.
same with looking at it as jealousy.
you could look at them as an MP who doesn't spend his or her own money and claims every single thing on expenses.
that's a bigger problem really. millions of pounds wasted. tax payers money. money that they can quite easily afford to spend of their own. but they don't want to. they'd sooner spend theirs on luxury items, and save it all up into millions.

Dave could say from now on you pay for this and that out of your own money. because we have no money. and we're all in this together.
but he hasn't, and he won't.

proves he's not taking it seriously.
all he wants out of his reign of power is to to put people in their place.

it all started that day of the riots. that really upset him.
and he hasn't stopped getting his revenge for it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

So are you advocating that we just let them carry on?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Which ones?
the ones with Xbox's or the ones who keep having them with no money to support them?

you could cut their money.
you could keep cutting it till we see one die. and be satisfied that we cut enough.

but apart from that. what can you do?

educate?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Whilst Child Benefit did attract more to breeding "excessively", it's Child Tax Credits that has been the biggest factor AFIAC.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My parents had nine of us and apart from some child benefit worked to put food on our table so lets not stereotype every family that has large families.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My Mum was one of 13, my Dad one of 10, and they managed well enough on Child Tax Allowance (only paid to working families). Families around here in my generation were usually only made up with 1 to 3 kids. But whilst that still seems about right in this generation of "locals", there are families with large numbers of kids moving in from abroad.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You don't see many big white British families in Britain.
they're that rare, that when someone finds one they make a documentary about them. and how much it costs to put food in their gobs.

there's loads of big foreign families from abroad. but nobody makes a documentary about them. and how much it costs to put food in their gobs.

My dads family was big.
7 brothers and 3 sisters.

his own kids he had 2 boys and 2 girls
would have had 3 girls. but sold her to put food on the table.

big families were the norm in the olden days. and money was even tighter.

I quote my father.
"This is all Thatcher all over again. she hated working class people too. she made everyone lose their homes"

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

There was not much TV in the old days! If we do not curb the population world wide - we will not exist in the near future.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My father was one of 8 and they were very poor - it was more down to lack of contraception than anything else I believe. Nobody sensible is stereotyping ALL large families. It is right, however, to point out and try to do something about the irresponsible minority who exploit the benefits system to their advantage and even continue breeding when they patently cannot cope with the kids they already have and are living in abject squalor . It wouldn't be so bad if these people actually cared for their children properly but parenthood is something which seems to stall when their kids are born and the benefits they get seem to be largely spent on things other than their children's welfare.

Somebody please tell me what excuse there is in 21st Century Britain for someone who won't work, won't keep their home clean, won't feed their children properly and keep them clean, safe etc. etc. to have more children? If nobody else, let's consider the poor children who are born to these defective people.

Until we get to grips with that proportion of society who choose not to behave responsibly they will continue to see having children as a means to an end and the more people there will be who've known nothing other than life on benefits and parents who didn't care about them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Its not just non working people on benefits who dont look after their kids and dont clean their house. What would you propose to do to the working parents who dont do the things you describe.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Have you made a suggestion of what needs to be done yet?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

This was one of the proposals of the advisory committee, but the Government decided to opt for an overall benefit cap instead to try to reduce the Housing Benefit bill. When a claimants entitlement exceeds the benefit cap, it is their Housing Benefit that is reduced.

The benefit cap does not apply to those who are working, so this has had the effect of many claimants moving into work (even if part time) or them moving out of expensive places like London.

I broadly support the benefit cap in principle, but on the one hand, as Boris Johnson said, it's like Ethnic Cleansing of the poor. On the other hand, many, many working people would love to live in London, but simply cannot afford it.

This is a very real problem. I think that society will have to make a decision. Either pay up for these people and stop complaining, or take decisive and drastic action to deal with the 'Shameless' style of living. Such measures are likely to be very controversial, as you can see from some of the responses to my suggestion that some people should be forcibly sterilised to save money and halt the cycle of wasteful and parasitic lives.

Up until the introduction of Supplementary Benefit, there was an a condition that all claimants had to meet in addition to all the usual rules. A person had to be a fit and proper person of good character who was suitable to be given assistance from public funds.

This dealt with those who satisfied all the rules, but were taking advantage. For example, a woman and her partner have children. Her partner gets killed in an industrial accident at work. Another woman has had ten children, all to different fathers and has never worked. As it stands, both would be entitled to state assistance.

The reintroduction of this rule would deal with those taking the urine, cut costs in the long term and help to eradicate the wasters in society.

This, however, would not be without it's problems. The children of underclass lifestyle families could not be left to starve on the street, as it wouldn't be their fault. They would have to be taken into care, which would cost more in the long run. However, once word got out that this was new policy, i'm certain that there would be a massive reduction of these types of claimant. This would help to restore public confidence in the welfare benefit system and stop decent people being tarred with the same brush.

I personally would like to see Child Benefit abolished. It was only ever intended to be a temporary measure to encourage people to have children after the second world war (that's why it was initially only paid for the second and subsequent children).

The restrictions on people getting it in the higher tax band is start, as we had the ludicrous position where poor families effectively lost their Child Benefit entitlement because it is taken into account in the calculation of means tested benefits, whilst a millionaire could keep theirs in full!

Abolishing it would save money and allow extra money to be targetted at (responsible) poor families.

Yes, it's always worth bearing in mind that not all large families have multiple children and expect others to pay everything for them.

---------- Post added at 16:04 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

I disagree entirely when it's the state that's paying for it. If the Government adopted this policy and people wanted to have children, there would be nothing to stop them- as long as they don't expect taxpayers money in order to have them.

Even if they work to pay for them, they are still getting a good deal. By this I mean that they will be entitled to free healthcare, education etc.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The State does not acquire the right to determine who can and cannot reproduce, merely by introducing benefit payments for children.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Strange - I thought she made it possible for lots of people to buy their *council homes?

*around two million....

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think what Gary might mean is the people who lost their homes due to the recession of the ,80's, high interest rates etc (some of these were people who took advantage of the Right To Buy Scheme).

At the same time, council houses were being sold and building new homes was halted, meaning less affordable housing was available to rehouse them.

Having said that, it was nowhere near as bad as it is today!

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

I think it may well have to come to this and not just because of the financial cost of such lifestyles. There are social, behavioural, medical and legal issues at play too.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Of course it isn't and they're a slightly different part of the same problem. Feckless parents who have kids then don't look after them. We're not talking here about people who fall ill or are subject to unforeseen circumstances after having children, but those who have children and keep on having them even when they can't cope and clearly don't even try.

What to do about these people ultimately has to be decided by govt. but we have to face up to the reality that unless something is done the situation will get worse and children will suffer. Education has to be part of the solution but that's obviously a long term process and whatever else has to be done will have to balance the need to be tough on the parents with trying to protect their unfortunate offspring.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Exactly that.

and Dave is doing it all over again.
nobody has security in their jobs at all now. you could be out of work tomorrow or next week. they're shutting down faster than what the pubs were. and it's all going to happen all over again.

one second we're booming (when it suits Dave)
the next we're not (when it suits Dave)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Spot on. Government policies (including welfare reform) are often used to try to influence the behaviour of people.

- Child Benefit was introduced to increase the birthrate after WWII.

- Thatcher cut benefits for the under 25's to encourage young people to stay at home until they got a job.

- MIRAS and the Right To Buy scheme were introduced to encourage home ownership as this was viewed as a way to make people more than responsible and take a pride in their environment (as well as buy working class votes).

- The present Government believe that marriage is a desirable situation, so have reintroduced the Married Persons Tax Allowance.

And so the list goes on. It really is time that the freeloaders were dealt with as it's getting out of hand. There are some families where the Grandparents, Parents and their adult offspring have NEVER worked.

I personally know of one woman who has many different children to various different fathers.

When she proudly referred to the DWP as her "free bank", I told her that she had reduced her genetalia to nothing more than a urinal for mens sperm.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What was her reply?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If only the facts aggreed with you.

Attachment 25802

Attachment 25803
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/da...AASUVORK5CYII=
link to source - excel spreadsheet from the ONS website

The numbers seem pretty clear to me (despite the size of the attachments!).

Cheers

Grim