Re: The existence of God
 

Maybe not, but I have seen quite a few posts saying that religion formed a framework or morals and ethics (and as a result bettered society)which would have been missing had religion not arrived. I've been guilty of using that argument myself in the past.

Let's take a view on adultery for example. Did people stop commiting adultery because Jesus or Muhammed told them too? What about those that weren't commiting adultery in the first place? I know plenty of religious people who have a bit on the side and hope for forgiveness on the Day of Judgement. And I know a lot of athiests who would never look at another women even though they dont believe that they will be punished for it. Did we really need religion to form a moral framework? Or are morals just a feature of people irregardless of the God (or lack of God) they follow?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm finding it difficult to seriously answer that question, because I don't believe there is a God. And even if there were it would be Gods behaviour that falls short of what I require.

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't know what Mohammed said but Jesus didn't tell anyone not to commit adultary - that's by the by but my point is what he did say was to judge others as you want to be judged (and not the misconception of "you should not judge").

No-one here is saying Christians (or any believers) lead a better life or are better people. As I said earlier that's a stereotypical view of believers and is rarely (if ever) found to be true in reality outside of the extremists.

People only tend to listen to those that make the headlines....

Agreed that biblical principles were used in many cases to set up a moral foundation for government, usually when chaos reigned. But a good example of an major exception is the Romans.

Re: The existence of God
 

But do you need to follow religion or be religious to follow the principle of
judge others as you want to be judged?

As for the "you should not judge" misconception I would have to argue that that is what a large majority of religious people do in fact end up doing, whatever their religious background. And I'd also say that there are more religious people who end up judging non religious people than the other way round.

By the way - what is the view of Christianity regarding adultery. (i just found this link on a quick google search - gospels according to the teachings of Jesus - http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/adultery.htm) What message did Jesus bring down that provided a moral code to the people of the time? Do Christians believe in the 10 commandments? Did Jesus not come to re-inforce those when the people moved away from them and back into their 'heathen' ways? All genuine questions, in case you're wondering.

Re: The existence of God
 

That's not what I was saying - my point was that's just one of many good moral codes that religion has suggested/reinforced.

I don't think they're the majority at all. But if such people fall in to a stereotype then they will only serve to reinforce it.

Ok one at a time then....adultary (in essence any sexual relations outside of marriage) is sinful.

He brought greater understanding what what God wanted. Like Eddie Izzard says, the God of the OT is viewed as a 'Victorian dad' by many. Jesus preached more of love and understanding. Today he'd be called a lefty/liberal/do-gooder etc...

Christians are expected to abide by them...

Reinforce and give better understanding, would be my take on it.

Isn't that what you usually ask? ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Fair enough, but if you hoped for an answer to your earlier question, presumably you're able to hold the discussion on a purely theoretical level? Otherwise what was the point in asking?

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ - just some questions (for you and other Christians)

So is the God of the OT different to the God that Christians follow now? When you say that Jesus was more of a liberal, he would still have been preaching God's message right? HAs God evolved over time. To say he has might be the same as suggesting he was not perfect at the beginning? Can that be possible with someone as great as God?

Russ - in your earlier post you suggested that Jesus did not tell anyone to commit adultery. Then you say he bought better understanding of what God wanted. The Bible contains many verses regarding adultery being sinful so surely one would have to say that Jesus also told the people not to commit adultary (see my link in previous post).

In regard to my comment about more religious people judging athiests than the other way round - you only have to look at the messages outside churches on billboards, being preached in churches and mosques and other places of worship that this is the case. Apart from that thing we had with the athiest ads on buses when was the last time you saw a big billboard saying Reliogioous people are not going to Heaven? The scale of organised condemnation of non believers is far greater than the other way round.

By the way I'm not having a go at Christianity. I am saying this last point is common is true with all religions.

Re: The existence of God
 

There is one and only God. Jesus (being part of the God Trinity) had the same message but people of the time were taking God's Word and using it for their own ends rather than to celebrate him with. For example it was used between people to settle arguments etc rather than taking it to the elders/leaders who were in a better position to use his Word.

Jesus did not change God's Word. But he preached in a way that people would understand better and hopefully utilise it more productively (for example it's why he's recorded as telling so many parables and stories - in order for people to understand his preaching better). Many religious leaders of the time were 'drunk with power', to paraphrase the good Book.

Well you can't expect Christianity to not spread the word, or to not promote itself. Obviously we want people on board although saying that I have never seen a church ad which says its followers are in any way 'better people' than those who are not amongst its fellowship. Tolerance and understanding for everyone is one of the most important messages any Christian groups can promote.

Re: The existence of God
 

God hasn't evolved over time, but it has been necessary for our understanding of him to grow to the point where we recognised our need of him and were able to accept his solution to the problem of sin, the solution being Jesus.

God is a God of covenant agreements between himself and his followers. An early example is that between himself and Abraham. Later came the Law of Moses, given by God to the nation that decended from Abraham via Isaac and Jacob. After that came the New Covenant, detailed in the New Testament, in which believers are born again by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, and as a result have God's law "written not on tablets of stone but on the 'tablets' of their hearts".

All the Old Testament dealings between God and people were intended to lead to Jesus and the covenant that he brought. Throughout the operations of those covenants people came to understand more of the character of God, but God himself was always consistent throughout. God couldn't give the Law of Moses to Abraham because that Law required the existence of a functioning nation to operate it. And he couldn't give Jesus to the young nation of Israel because the Law of Moses needed time to do its work - namely, to show them the impossibility of living up to God's righteous standards by their own efforts.

The Bible is a bit like a polaroid picture of God. The more time and daylight you give it, the better the image, but the final state of the Polaroid is still a poor substitute for the real thing. Mind you even in eternity, we won't ever get the full measure of him.

Jesus absolutely upheld the righteous requirement of the Law of Moses, a Law which had long ago established the principle of a sacrifice being made as the penalty for sin. Jesus made himself that sacrifice - a sacrifice so holy that it never needs to be repeated, unlike the sacrifices in the Law which had to be made regularly.

Christianity is an evangelistic religion. If you want to go about promoting a religion that claims to be the exclusive truth, it's inevitable that your message will end up claiming that other religions and philosophies are not truth. I accept there are good and bad ways of going about this, but it's not something that should be shied away from.

Re: The existence of God
 

So he didn't explain it very well first time round? :shocked: :angel:

Re: The existence of God
 

No - his explanation of it has become progressively more detailed. But the promise that he would send someone who would defeat sin, characterised in the beginning of Genesis as a serpent, is right there in the same chapter of Genesis.

Re: The existence of God
 

The more I think about Gods and religions, the more I find myself thinking what's the point in questioning it? But then again I also think it should be questioned, because all I can see is death, destruction and endless slavery.

Re: The existence of God
 

Nihilism and existentialism all wrapped up in one happy package, eh?

Questioning is good - but so is considering any answers given, otherwise why question (not accept - consider).

Re: The existence of God
 

Just wish to type that this Christan lady and hubby and all our JW buddies and my old BAC ones never have thought we are better than any non believers in God!

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

By the way, folk who have a love for God and follow his path, do not have it easy at all, infact to lead a life which is governered by Gods advice can be darned hard at times!
The world we live in today can make it hard!

Re: The existence of God
 

I met nasty look down their noses cheapskate mean Christians,but then I've met their atheist counterparts too.:(

Met some truly inspiring people and quite a few of them were Christians and a fair few were not and quite a lot were atheist.:nworthy:

Re: The existence of God
 

Yeah, Even Mother Teresa had her doubts.

Re: The existence of God
 

I know of a vicar who asked a Christian friend of mine if she believed in God ... she ummed and ahhed and he whispered 'I don't'.

Re: The existence of God
 

Did she??? Explain please, if you wish to that is!?

I do not doubt, just saying its not all a bed of roses!
All human after all:angel:

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------



Drz, he must be in the wrong "job" then!

Shame.

Re: The existence of God
 

Link

She even had an exorcism performed on her. Link

Re: The existence of God
 

You could probably find her post on the internet if you look!

Infact, don't bother as I couldn't and I know where it is!!

Re: The existence of God
 

Are you sure that you believe in the posts existence.:D

Re: The existence of God
 

Might be worth some on here watching 'Deborah 13: Servant of God' on BBC 3 and see what brain washing actually does to a child when the same message is drilled into them day after day, hour after hour.

It's on now but it'll be on the BBC iPlayer if you want to see the whole thing. It's fascinating and shocking.

Re: The existence of God
 

Maybe like the same kind of message being drilled in this thread by some atheist perhaps? :)

Don't forget it's the extremists that make the headlines - tv producers aren't interested in programmes that show how Christianity has pulled people through drink and drug addiction.

Re: The existence of God
 

Sounds interesting i'll have to watch it when I have time.

http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliber...ervant-of-god/

When she's talking to the other girls about 14 mins in, and dare i say "preaching" to them. it's just wrong. she's too young.

Re: The existence of God
 

Interesting I'll give this a watching. I'll also be mindful not to tar all faiths and followers with the same brush.

Re: The existence of God
 

That's the one .... part 3 of 6 is the most shocking with it's daily 'Bible Studies'.:confused::shocked:

Re: The existence of God
 

And just to redress the balance slightly.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxlJWJ_WfA

Re: The existence of God
 

Play part 6 of 6 at 7 minutes and 20 seconds.

This is a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL who's been taught by her over the top parents.

Re: The existence of God
 

Make sure you play all of my clip.

A DISABLED MAN who's been taught he can be an inspiration to millions through his strong faith in God.

Re: The existence of God
 

4/6 sums it all up for me.
she's 13 and had this since she was born.

She's scared of going to heaven and being told that she's been bad and has to go to hell where there's gnashing teeth.

She was asked "what if heaven doesn't exist" she said she'll die and go to the grave, and it'll be a waste of her life.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ooh, what a surprise - some Christians are over the top, and have been indoctrinating their daughter. :shocked:

Ergo, all Christians are tainted by this. :dozey:

Be careful of the precedents you try to outline, otherwise other posters may point out some bad indoctrination practices by well-known atheists (20th Century leaders ;) ).

However, it is my belief that individuals do not represent communities, be the faith or atheist, and should not be used to "tar" those communities :)

Re: The existence of God
 

The ending is really upsetting. she's a scared girl. she doesn't know anything. all she knows is what she's been told over the years :(

Re: The existence of God
 

Anyone would have thought I'd not posted a truly inspirational clip of a young man born without arms or legs who turned his life around by following Christ....

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ. calm down. we can't watch 2 things at once :rolleyes:

I've watched it, and in all seriousness, it doesn't really compare to the other one.

Re: The existence of God
 

But clearly can watch and post on here at the same time ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Well I have a widescreen monitor and a pair of ears if my eyes get distracted :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Well be sure to post your thoughts on the clip I posted. Truly inspirational and shows what the power of God in people's lives can do.

Re: The existence of God
 

I have watched it Russ. and I'm happy for him that he's got that attitude. but did he have a different attitude before where he hated himself for how he was and the belief of God made him a different person?

What are your thoughts on Deborah?

Re: The existence of God
 

She's terrified and only thirteen years old.

The whole program would be an education to some on here.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think it would be an education. and I want everyone that watched it to admit that it wasn't only me that cried for her :)

Re: The existence of God
 

It can be an education but you still can't brand every man or woman of faith with the same iron. And this can be said for atheists, there are few I will give reading time to, if your to read into atheism I suggest Barker, Hitchens, Dennett, Harris, and Dawkins.

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't think that all people of faith are the same. the mother in the film said that she was only planning on having 2 children, but left it up to God to control the opening and closing of the womb to determine how many she eventually had.

there's a difference between belief and faith and fact. when one says it is fact and the other says it's belief then that's where we have a problem.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think 'someone' enjoyed sex more than they will preach!!

---------- Post added at 00:57 ---------- Previous post was at 00:50 ----------

One word ... doppelgänger .... jog on.

Re: The existence of God
 

"a ghostly double or counterpart of a living person"
Doppelgänger

I'm sorry I don't speak gibberish, any chance you could explain what on earth your talking about?

Re: The existence of God
 

I've got no idea and that doesn't make any difference really. What stands out more is he's an excellent example of someone living their life with God through massive adversity.

Every section of society has extremist, her family especially. Of course, you don't think they represent anything more than the minority, right?

Re: The existence of God
 

Telegraph article on Ms Drapper

Re: The existence of God
 

But to me it doesn't say that God has made him a different person. that would make a big difference if it was like that but it isn't.

I don't think they are representative of all. I think you already know I don't think that. I'm not even thinking about religion as a whole when I think of Deborah. I just think of Deborah as a girl who has been brought up fearing life by thinking that she has to become someone else through fear of going to hell. that fear has been force fed her by her parents.

---------- Post added at 10:19 ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 ----------

It will be interesting to see the next part of the documentary where she's grown up a bit and the parents fix her up with a nice Christian lad to make babies.

Re: The existence of God
 

The point of me showing that wasn't to say God made him a different person (although it wouldn't be a massive leap of the imagination to suggest he may well feel he has more of a purpose in life - to give hope to others - now that he has God) but to show how positive, peaceful and loving someone can be as Christian.

This was needed as a counter to the 'Deborah' clip.

Re: The existence of God
 

Not necessarily. he hardly says anything really about God all through the clip. it's mostly just music and song about God. I wouldn't say it was inspirational. unless we focus too much on him having no limbs.

Why?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm assuming you've only listened to the first minute or so before giving up? Watch it again but all the way through and he talks about how God has given him purpose and understanding.

Because, and not for the first time, you're centering on the negative.

Re: The existence of God
 

I have watched it all. don't assume that I'm doing something wrong just because I don't see what I'm supposed to see.

Here we go. I'm being told I'm a bad person again :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

No has said you're bad but you're not giving a balanced view.

Re: The existence of God
 

I have given my view about 3 or 4 times. it's my honest view.

Your view on Deborah is
Every section of society has extremist, her family especially. Of course, you don't think they represent anything more than the minority, right?

That isn't balanced. that is just one sided.
I asked what your view on one girls life is.

Re: The existence of God
 

If you're asking me my view on one heavily-one-sided situation then it's hard to be balanced.

One thing I try not to do is criticise someone's parenting skills - I've had people do that to me even though they know nothing of me. Another thing I avoid is how another Christian exercises their faith in their own lives.

On that particular film all I will say is it's certainly not the way I'll be bringing up my own daughter.

Re: The existence of God
 

It doesn't have to be a heavily-one-sided view. it's about one girls life.
do you feel sorry for her in the way that she has been taught this from birth?
there is no way that she could have refused being taught this all through her life.

But you can criticise by having an opinion. such as if it's wrong or right.
I think if it was anything other than religion that this girl (and her brothers and sisters) are being forced to learn, then more people will have a strong view or opinion of what is happening to them.

Re: The existence of God
 

And I've given my opinion - it's not the way I bring up my daughter. Christianity is a personal thing and its followers apply it appropriately to their lives. What works for me might not work for someone else, this is why I don't like to criticise another follower. But by the time my daughter gets to Deborah's age I'm pretty sure she'll have a different outlook to what is shown on that clip.

Re: The existence of God
 

I accept your opinion. I just want to know if you feel sorry for her?

Re: The existence of God
 

Do you feel sorry for the drunken fresher girl who came up to them and asked if they wanted to sign her breasts?

Re: The existence of God
 

Am I sorry she has God in her life? No. Am I sorry her life is being restricted to the point of her never knowing what a normal teenager's upbringing is like? Yes.

Re: The existence of God
 

No. should I? :confused:

Re: The existence of God
 

So you think that's acceptable behaviour for a teenage girl? What if was your daughter or your sister?

What he said.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ok I'll be more specific. are you sorry that she has been force fed God from birth. and that she thinks that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?

That is what she thinks. she said it in the film.

Re: The existence of God
 

We have seen 1 hours edit out of 100 hours filming; you are asking us to comment on a sub-set which will have been chosen for it's "news-worthiness".

Also, what are we supposed to be "sorry" for? The way someone else brings up their children? Should I be apologetic for the fact that some parents in South Yorkshire brought up their children in a way that led to the violent assault on two other young children?

Re: The existence of God
 

It's normal behaviour for a drunken girl. it might not be acceptable, but it's normal.

---------- Post added at 11:40 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

I'm asking you to comment on what she herself said. not an edited version of what she said.

Re: The existence of God
 

Might be in your friends and family, buddy, but not in mine.

I'll type slowly, so you understand...
a) what you saw was an edited version, cut down from 100 hours to 1 hour
b) Why do I (or others) have to be sorry for someone else's action?

btw, I don't agree with the way she has been brought up (home-schooling, little exposure to the "real world"), but then again, you probably don't agree with the way I have brought my children up (C of E schools, no TV in the bedrooms, etc).

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you are forgetting that the girl was drunk. so are you saying that it's not normal to get drunk in your family, or that when someone in your family is drunk it's not normal for them to ask someone to sign their boobs?
So you want me to say it's not acceptable (which I did) and it's not normal? (which it is)
will that make you feel like you've won something if I did?


Was it exactly 100 hours, or was it a bit more? link?
Is what she said not the truth. did she really say the opposite and they may have edited it to make it sound like she said it?

Deborah as a child. not her parents and how they are, but Deborah herself.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

What about being taught about Jesus every other day of their lives for the last 13 years?
Do you think as a Father, that Deborah is a scared girl?

Re: The existence of God
 

Nothing wrong with that. I see my daughter twice a week and I phone her most days/evenings too. Whenever possible I mention Jesus to her in some way, not something I find difficult as she goes to a Christian-based school and they're in the middle of teaching them basic Bible studies at the moment. When she stays over I make sure she prays to God as well. No-one should ever feel ashamed or embarrassed about having Jesus in their children's lives.

However what I am not comfortable with is parents bombarding a child's life with any specific subject or matter which encroaches on their development and restricts their ability to have a normal upbringing.

Re: The existence of God
 

Again, what he said.

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

It's not normal to ask to have boobs signed, imho.


That's what Deborah states on her blog

Once again, you seem to have missed the point - if 99% of what was filmed was not shown, perhaps (and only perhaps, because one should be open to all possibilities) it didn't show where she qualified this in some way? Having been filmed for political programmes, I have first hand experience where they miss out parts of what filmed to make it "more interesting".

Re: The existence of God
 

It is when she's drunk and there's a camera crew around.
it's not as if she was going around to everyone asking the same question. it just wouldn't happen. and I don't even know why we are even discussing it really when it doesn't really have anything to do with much.

No, it's just you and your point you are trying to make that isn't really relevant to the question/s being asked.

Re: The existence of God
 

Unfortunately .... There's no other way to make television programs.

The fact of the matter is she is a very disturbed little girl as a result of having God rammed down her throat 24/7 for 13 years.

I shall type VERY SLOWLY for you to understand but I can guarantee you won't .... THIS IS WHAT BRAINWASHING DOES. Given time, you can make anyone believe in anything, no matter how ridiculous. ie God.

Re: The existence of God
 

Mmmmmm - brainwashing.
"Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or reeducation) consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person — beliefs sometimes unwelcome or in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge" - oh, the irony.

It must be that which makes people polemical, close-minded and unwilling to see others viewpoints, and use emotive perjorative language to make their points.......;)

Re: The existence of God
 

That is the truth of it really. she has been brainwashed. be it God or anything else. nobody really can say that this isn't what has happened to her.

She had no way of refusing it. and some people will say that it's not a bad thing. because it's God that she has been taught.

Re: The existence of God
 

And some people would disagree, as has been stated in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

Do you think she is scared?

She said that she's scared of going to heaven and being told that she's been bad and has to go to hell where there's gnashing teeth.

She was asked "what if heaven doesn't exist" she said she'll die and go to the grave, and it'll be a waste of her life.

Something else she said to her older brother.
She said something about it's ok to dance and have fun, and he said yeh but what if Jesus was there he wouldn't like to see us dancing and having fun (something like that)

She then agreed with him.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ B and foreverwar have no argument against that comment and will no doubt ignore like they've done with all the other challenging questions put to them in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

It's already been addressed, perhaps you missed it because I didn't answer in the way you hoped I would?

Also I'd be grateful if you could take the time to show me what else I've apparently ignored, otherwise your comment there is completely worthless and unwarranted.

Re: The existence of God
 

Not really Russ. you wasn't sure what question I was asking of you earlier, so gave me 2 of your own questions to answer.

I was more specific in my question in post #1262

Re: The existence of God
 

It wasn't aimed at you because you hadn't accused me of ignoring anything. But the answer I gave here still applies.

Re: The existence of God
 

You've just ignored it AGAIN with your repetitive method of answering a question, with a question. You've done this many times throughout this thread!!!

Re: The existence of God
 

No, like he said you are answering a question with a question.

Re: The existence of God
 

Your question (from post 1262): "are you sorry that she has been force fed God from birth. and that she thinks that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?"

My answer (from post 1267): ".......I am not comfortable with...parents bombarding a child's life with any specific subject or matter which encroaches on their development and restricts their ability to have a normal upbringing.". Which is not a question.

Re: The existence of God
 

My daughter has been told or reminded about God & Islam everyday for the last 3 years of her life (She will be 5 soon). Is this brainwashing? I want her brought up as a muslim - does this make me a bad parent?

So far she hasn't had a restricted upbringing, and is developing extremely well. She also goes to an Islamic based faith school (Reception Year) and her non Islamic studying is going great.

I didn't see the programme thats being debated above but arent there exceptions to everything in life?

Re: The existence of God
 

I would suggest you and I have very similar ideas regarding parenting :tu:

Re: The existence of God
 

Surely at the end of the day there is a responsibility on a parent to install some values and morals on their child based on their own experiences and lifestyle. You bring your daughter up as a Christian, I as a muslim. Why should we be accused of brainwashing our kids into believing about God and the religion we follow.

Can we then accuse those of not following any religion, and not believing in God, of not opening their children's mind (by telling them God doesnt exist or by choosing to not to tell them about God?)

Re: The existence of God
 

But which of your religions do you think is the true one? Do you see each other as atheists?

Re: The existence of God
 

Ok, here it is again.
are you sorry that she has been force fed God from birth, and that she thinks that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?

You say you are not comfortable with bombardments of any specific subject or matter. so I think you are saying that this case is the same.
but you have not answered the second part of the question. are you sorry for her thinking that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?

---------- Post added at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was at 14:32 ----------

But Deborah seems to be thinking that unless she has God and preaches God she will go to hell. she has said this, and that is what is being said about her being brainwashed.
she believes that unless she is perfect and does what is expected of her, by even converting others, then she is a bad person and will have to go to hell.

I think you'd have a better understanding if you were to watch it.

Re: The existence of God
 

WHY?? if your god exists then why the constant reminders? surely he will show himself to your daughter. Atheists don't have to remind their children every day that there is no god.

Re: The existence of God
 

Islam teaches us that it has come after Christianity and that Muhammed was sent down by God to to further reiniforce the messages sent down by Moses, Jesus and other prophets. We believe that the God that the Jews and Christians believe in is the same as the one we believe in. We also respect the religions before us (i.e of the books that God sent down - Torah, OT, Koran).

The fundamental differences are that a) We belive Muhammed is the last prophet of God, and b) Jesus was merely a prophet like Muhammed (so we dont believe in the holy trinity - which i still fail to understand what its about).

I wouldn't call Russ (or any other Christian) an athiest. I'd question his interpretation of Christianity, and the emphasis that Christians put on Jesus (i.e that he is part of God). Personally I see Chrisitianity today having moved very drastically away from the message that Jesus supposedly bought down. I do not believe he claimed to be the Son of God or part of God either. I think those are the fundamental differences.

At the end of the day I'm not out to convert anyone to Islam. I am perfectly content with what I believe in, it works for me, and I have a strong believe that its the right religion for me to follow (isn't that what faith is). I will also do my best to ensure that my religious values are practised and passed down to my kids.

I believe in God and don't feel i have to prove his existence. You either believe or you dont.

Re: The existence of God
 

No, that's what I believe too. It would seem her parents have been very aggressive with their parenting regarding Christianity. Like I said I avoid criticising other peoples' faith and parenting skills but I don't think that what appears to be such harsh doctrine is advisable. I consider it perfectly feasible to bring a child up in Christianity (or any faith really) and still give him or her a normal life.

Re: The existence of God
 

Brianwashing takes time and the young are very susceptible to it especially from someone the trust.

Are the believers brianwashing your children just as they were brainwashed as a child..... yes.

Could you be made to believe the world was flat ... yes.

Can you be made to believe in a invisible man who floats in the sky ... yes.

You can be made to passionately believe in ANYTHING even when faced with the impossibility of it all.

Re: The existence of God
 

That is the proverbial bull brown-stuff. You have no idea of my childhood.

Should I bring my child up the way I think is best or the way YOU think is best? No point in you even considering that question for more than a nano-second.

You have no idea what I teach my child. You have no idea how I or she sees the world. I make no apologies for bringing her up in Christianity. Many parents don't even bother with any sort of morals or principles.

Re: The existence of God
 

When my boy asks / asked (as he has done on occasion) about God and the bible, I tell him what I think and he tells me what he's taught at school.

Anyway he will have to make his own mind up when he's older.

Luckily his RE at school is covering a lot of different religions and has several visits to different places or worship.

Re: The existence of God
 

Are you bringing your child up the way you think is best or the way God tells you is best?

Re: The existence of God
 

The way I think is best.

Re: The existence of God
 

Why is she reminded every day? a) because she shes either me or her mum pray every day, and b) since the age of 2 she has been going to nursery and reception faith based establishments.

Athiests dont have to remind their children that there is no God? Their own actions i.e believing that there is no god is what the child sees every day from their parents. So there is a valid argument that they are reminded everyday from their parents that there is no god. If you never pray, never acknowledge the existent of God, then it could be argued that your children will believe that there is no God. If we are talking about actions 'brainwashing' kids, then my actions of making my daughter aware of God or a daily basis is equal to your brainwashing of your child by making her aware on a daily basis that God does not exist.

Do you see where Im coming from?

As for God showing himself to my daughter if he wanted to, I believe that there are signs of God in everyday life on a daily basis. You just need faith to believe that, and that is what I'm hoping my daughter gets. I cannot guarantee she will be a muslim in later years, I cannot guarantee that she will pray, there have been huge periods of times (years) when I have not prayed as much as I should, but I see nothing wrong in instilling religious beliefs in her from now. She can make her choices later on, but at least she will have the ability to balance her choices up.

Re: The existence of God
 

:clap:

Who'd have thunk it, a Christian and a Muslim agreeing on so many things...

Re: The existence of God
 

I think that's a bit of an odd argument. Not telling you kid there is a God and telling your kid there is no God are decidedly different, in particular when it is debatable there is a God.

Re: The existence of God
 

What I'm trying to say as a believer in God I will tell my kid there is a god. Further more my kid has demonstrated a believe in God based on my actions. In a similar way an athiest's actions would more than likely instill a belief into their child that there is no God.

My daughter 'supports' Chelsea. She knows nothing about football, but she boos when Man Utd & Liverpool come on, and she chants all night when Chelsea are playing. I don't have to tell her that CHelsea are the best team in the premiership -albeit a little unlucky this season ;), she just knows it from watching her dad watch football.

I believe in God so I won't tell my daughter there might not be a God. Why should I be accused of brainwashing her because I believe in something. You(not you specifically but Im talking generally here) might not believe in God, so you wont tell your kid that God might exist.

Where's the difference between not telling someone that something might exist just because it's debateable as opposed to telling someone something might exist even tho it is debateable.

Re: The existence of God
 

Nothing odd about it if it's debatable that there is a god, then it's just as debatable that there isn't. SAAF I think your confusing atheists with heathens, I don't believe in god, my children were never christened, gave them the option to decide when they were old enough. But they were still taught respect for others and there property, not all atheists are scutters from council estates.;);)

Re: The existence of God
 

You're not sorry that she feels that unless she has God in her life she will go to hell?

In the film she tells people that even a little white lie means that you're going to hell. if you get killed by a car and you never asked for forgiveness before you step out in front of the car, you're going to hell.

She said a few times that it's a scary thought of going to hell for eternity. that is why she is so screwed up in the head for, because someone has taught her that she is a bad person and she is going to hell.