Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that SMharman. I havent made the time to read the Ernst and Young report yet. Not sure that I like the sounds of this though. I am dead set against phorm but I am on a low income and cant afford to change ISP (No BT line and no other options without one) but if VM do make this opt-out rather than opt-in I will downgrade my services to the lowest tier in protest. At least then they WILL be losing money.

As per the 14 day logs for research and debugging, I arent quite sure what to make of that. The AOL debacle last year showed that so called "anonymising" does not work and I guess it largely depends exactly how they define this "research." Personally I dont trust Phorm one iota. What I would like to say to the CEO of Phorm isnt polite enough for this forum.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That seems so stupid why do businesses think shooting thermselves in the foot is good for business. They just had there best quarter for a long time turning the company round.

The feel good factor was growing services was being upgraded and some snooty idiot in some office had a brainwave to test the resolve of its customers by doing this.

Have they thought about risk assesment management in VM. Did they honestly thought customers would go oh well we have cttv camera's every inch of the uk surely the wont mind us going to bed with some dodgy hackers who make rootkits for spyware. So we can snoop and profile there habits just to give us more junk, but oh wait it will be only adverts we would be interested in.

I sometimes wonder if these educated people who are in positions to make decisions have any brains at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As long as they come up with stupid idea's VM will listen to them :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No, not postcards. Go back and read those posts you listed, as they explain to you why the packet is a letter not a postcard.

[EDIT: To be honest it's a bogus distinction anyway. Even if it's a postcard, are you seriously suggesting that it would be okay for the Post Office to read the contents of a postcard and sell the information that whoever was sending it had e.g. gone to Greece on holiday and liked the food, so that some junk mail company could send me "Win a holiday" promotions and adverts for feta? The people posting it might be able to read the info, but legally they're not allowed to do anything with it. Even if it's on a postcard - it's none of their damn business where I've been or what my friends and relatives think of their diving trip or whatever. You're right, a postcard you don't have any expectation that it won't be read - however, an expectation that that knowledge will not be exploited for commercial gain is perfectly reasonable.]

I notice you ignored the major substance of my post, which is that the Home Office advice clearly states that this kind of action IS illegal under the RIPA unless it is a) with the explicit consent of both the communicating parties, or b) necessary to provide the contracted service of delivery of communications.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reading on the BBC news technology section wed 12th that Talk Talk are considering making it "Opt In"
If VM do go ahead with the system I hope they don't make the "opt out" as obscure as some other opt out systems companies have used in the past.

Yahoo a few years ago had an opt out for something but was placed so hidden away it was a miricle if you found it. Then only if you knew it was there in the first place by word of mouth.

E-mailing every user with details would have to be a must, and a quick link to opting out.

Not everyone goes to the company web page and reads through. Yep companies will put things up in small corners of their own company pages, and say well we have complied with the law, even though you need to have the eyesight of the "6 Million Dollar Man" to find it. Yes I am showing my ages with that quote hahaha

I can only see this having a very big negative impact for users and companies involved.
Especially for the users stuck or who can't end their contracts and move onto other isp's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

By definition, if VM decide to go purely for an opt-out then it's not worth having as they'll still be hijacking your clickstream ("but honestly we're not peeking!").

Should that happen, I'll be joining the queue to dump cable and getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+.
And BT (Wholesale) don't offer anything like VM's 30-day guarantee on new installs -- I'll be committed for 18 months (half-price installation) no matter how VM might adjust their position after they've brought it in.


VM have had several weeks to consider the grassroots reaction to Phorm and have done (virtually) nothing. My guess is that either they don't value our privacy or the potential extra income from the targeted adverts is worth more than our subscriptions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Post :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu::tu: Yes I am taking the BT half price reconnection it is only valued until may 2008 but since my trust in VM has dropped to 0 I am on my way back to BT. Just waiting for my money to go in and the order will be in BT line ASAP already ordered my ADSL modem/router.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't use BT as your ISP though.. they're up to their necks in this scam as well...

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...=2612&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

#1113
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
"
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof
-------------------------------------------------------
thats a very good question, it seems this question and many more are being ignored by the many news outlets.

you have to wonder why?, as theres far more mobile users out there than even BB users, is it that people just dont care if this 'Interception For Sale' expands to all mobile browsing and other related area's, id think not.

it seems clear , the investors and markets are just hopeing this all goes away and gets forgotten.

the question remains, other than 'the register', why havent the other news outlets covered any of this new mobile IFS.

and perhaps even more worrying,why (other than here)havent the online messageboards and blogs also linked this into the current ISP/Phorm concerns?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Writing, not since I used demon internet dial up did I use an ISPs email service. Neither NTL/VM or Cablevision in the US know my email address, both set me up an email account on their system but I could not access it if you paid me $1M, well if you paid me $1M I would go on line and find out how to get to it, but you see where I am coming from.

This is a fundamental change to T&Cs and would need to be in writing anyway.

I have not talked to my parents about this, they still use VM as their ISP, I am waiting to see if they ask me about changes to their T&Cs or whether the documents, like when your bank changes parts of their T&Cs just gets ignored and binned. This way I will see what the average user who just wants a broadband connection to send a few emails and book a vacation sees and understands of this change.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes we know BT are into phorm aswell I am off to Aquiss who are not going to be phorm(ed). :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Virgin Media cant use email for 'official notification' Now anyway, as they removed that option from their T&Cs ages ago.

probably as a way to make it harder for you to send them any 'official notice', but it works both ways and they seem to have forgotten that.

OC, its possible they may re-include the Electronic Official Notice option into the T&C at some point, as they would have to do so for any popup 'do you agree' type options they and the other ISPs think constitutes getting 'explicit consent' (it doesnt AFAIC).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well if everyone leaves who is against this Then VM are stupid to ignore the general feeling of their customers. Less customers will lead to less revenue from targeted ads, i will also be leaving if they implement this infringement on privacy. I also have a BT line already here that just needs the switch flicking, so mine is not an empty threat as i don't have to worry about a line installation

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can certainly vouch for Aquiss. I have dealt with them in the past and they were always polite, well informed and truthful to their word. Defiantly (by far) the best ADSL provider I'd ever been with.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for your kind words, Sirius.

Wouldn't even think about it, mate.
That's why I wrote: "I'll be ... getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+"

Luckily for me, I have a choice of ADSL2+ providers (at ~7Mbps according to SamKnows Mapping) amongst Be Unlimited, O2, UK Online and Sky Max.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If BT make this a non-optional service, is there any way I can get out of a contract with them?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect your query would be better answered in the BT Community Forums than here. But we'll be rooting for you!


(More relevantly as you're 'inside the machine', how can we lobby the plonkers upstairs to make sure they realise how pis^u^u^u disappointed we are with their handling of the Phorm/WebWise issue?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A new short piece from the register regarding AVG, Trend Micro, Webroots classification of phorm etc:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...lassification/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When it goes live there will have to be a significant change to BT's T&C's. Once this occurs it will provide a means of severing your contract without penalty.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You can only get onto OrangeWorld with a Orange SIM

hth

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

utter rubbish!! if you land in the uk with a foriegn sim you get texts asking you to use there service you do not need a orange sim to use orangeworld

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Other UK sims don't work on orangeworld, certain services from abroad may have arranged roaming rights but not all

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I found this article quite informative http://www.economist.com/printeditio...ry_id=10789393

Though the article talks about what is happening in the USA it does suggest that similar thing will be used in Europe. The way I see it, the only reason someone like Virgin Media have been talking to Phorm is due the requirement to tap all web use. With the deal the ISP doesn't have to pay to host the equipment and yet will be able comply with the law and monitor all use. Revenue raised from the advertising would be a 'bonus'

It would also seem to imply that ALL ISPs would be required to have monitors so regardless of where people defect to, they are likely to be monitored.

One thought springs to mind however. The article refers to Skype and how packets are encrypted. Would it be practical to use Skype as pseudo dial up, rather than send voice over it data. I don't know what performance would be like, but just a thought :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No. Unless the EU and our government completely lose what little sense they have, the only ways in which this could be legal are a) after the granting of a warrant/court order (which is allowed for in the DPA, but even then there must be just cause, i.e. reason to suspect you are or may be committing criminal acts - not merely because some gort wants to deluge you with targeted ads!), or b) if the current laws are changed. My scepticism re this government and the EU notwithstanding, I really can't see that happening. Certainly in this country some serious questions would be asked in the House, which I imagine the PM is woefully ill-equipped to answer. In fact, any such change would have to conform to EU legislation as well.

Besides, Virgin won't be paying to host the equipment - Phorm will be paying them to do it, that's the whole point. Except for the (hopefully large) number of broadband subscribers they're going to lose, Virgin's costs will be minimal - unless one or more subscribers sue them as a result of data security leaks and subsequent financial or other damage to them.
How do you mean, "required"? In order to make this work at all, that might be true - but in the legal framework of RIPA, the DPA and several other pieces of legislation, the ISPs can only be 'required' to perform such monitoring if ordered to do so by the Police or HMG. If you reread Rob's form letter (and hey, Rob: have you had any reply yet?), one key point which I don't think has been mentioned for a while is that before all this started, Virgin's T & Cs stated that they would not perform any such monitoring...and that particular clause has disappeared. If this is legal as Phorm allege, one has to wonder why Virgin felt they had to make such a change.
I'm not techie enough to say yea or nay to that, but I suspect it either wouldn't be practical or it simply wouldn't work. Besides, why the hell should we be expected to encrypt all our traffic if all we're doing is looking something up on Wikipedia or just idly browsing Amazon? Let's get something straight: it is none of Virgin's business, nor that of Phorm, nor, in fact, of ANYONE ON THIS FREAKIN' PLANET, what websites I browse or who I email or what I buy online!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That article is not worth the time and trouble of reading.

The UK telephone network changed to a packet switching digital network around a decade ago. The article is comparing the non existent long since redundant analogue network with packet switching internet networks which are highly comparable with modern telephony methods.

There are legal requirements to intercept telephony communications and IMO the exact same requirements should apply to internet packets whatever the use.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, I've been following the debate with interest on here and other forums and thought I would give my two penniesworth.

I (part time) develop bespoke Web applications and test these on several flavours of browsers IE, Opera, Firefox - and I certainly would want to opt-out. So then with the currently proposed opt-out approach I would have to opt-out in all browsers on all machines, sounds like fun.

Also I do not see it being a big problem as a developer, to put a bit of script on a website that was using this 'Spyware' to marry up the 'Random (ish) number of the Phorm cookie and the IP address and header info of the browser requesting the page. So unless they have come up with a new way of communication over the Internet it does not seem too anonymous to me.

Default opt out which bypasses the Phorm system is the only civilised thing for any ISP to do. I just hope they do that.

Life is too short and there are far more interesting things to be doing. Fighting corperate EGO's and greed is not one of them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This thread has just been shown on the BBC's "Click!"
TradUK is famous lol.

Anyway keep up the good work everyone. No Surrender!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is indeed good news for the customers of BT & VM! :)

Will there be a repeat of it or a webshow of it anytime in the future as I would be really interested to watch / listen to it!

This is what we need, more publicity on what is going on / intended to go on if PHORM get their way, and must be stopped dead!

More people have to know & protest at this or we will wont win the war against PHORM! :):)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With any luck Phorm's ip addresses & all there severs will be added to the blocklists in peerguardian & protowall, then if everyone uses these ip blockers it will surely render Phorm's system entirely useless

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well..., a 10 second mention (07.42 mins into it)and a pan of the poll (when it was 21 'im quite happys), but enough for the viewer to just about work out were it came from anyway.

the click! researchers should come in here and ask far more questions on our views and many subjects ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ne/4137816.stm
click the 'watch now' link to start the java code that opens the player window.

i cant be bothered to find the real link to the direct stream so you can play it in any stand alone OS app....

;)
i did it anyway
mms://wm-acl.bbc.co.uk/wms/news/media_acl/mps/fix/news/uk/video/159000/bb/159204_16x9_bb.wmv works for me in VLC and MPC

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This week's should be available from the page below from next Friday...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/default.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...And now BT are having a rethink, too...

According to Adam Liversage, the hapless BT employee who has been tasked with answering questions on the Phorm system from the lucky trialists over on the BT network;

"...BT can also confirm that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing an opt-out solution that would remove the need for opt-out cookies altogether."

The full thread is over at http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=165&tstart=0

So first TalkTalk listen to their customers, now BT appear to be doing the same...so the big question everyone here wants answered is: What are you going to do, Virgin Media?


Then again, maybe BT have done us all a favour and sunk Phorm before it can even get off the ground...at 10pm last night, the same BT spokesman posted the following:

"SYSIP.NET ISSUE - UPDATE

BT can confirm that we conducted a very small scale technical test of a prototype advertising platform on one exchange in June 2007. The test was specifically conducted to evaluate the functional and technical performance of the platform. Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this trial. As with all Service Providers, it is important for BT to ensure that, before any potential new technologies are employed, they are robust and fit for purpose."

Oh boy, now the crap is really going to hit the fan!!! Not least because BT have repeatedly denied having anything to do with the mysterious sysip.net server last year. Now it turns out they were running a secret trial using customers' data without informing them....I can't wait until The Register reads that one! :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like the BT trials have begun: http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=14293#14293

Opps, looks like I need to send BT my refusal of interception notice for my website ASAP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is that available to download and view iPlayer perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mick, use that direct mms i posted inside VLC and save it off that way

---------- Post added at 17:44 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

its also on http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=click if you just want to play it that way.

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

for your administered web site(s), you dont need to send BT VM or anyone else a notice, just put it on all your web pages.

if any Phorm opted-in trialists were to visit your website(s) and your web data was processed by the profiler(s) then your notice in there covers it, and they may be in serious trouble.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a passive way of doing it, and I will be doing that. But maybe a better way would be to send them a registered letter, give notice under RIPA and then request that they furnish me with the details of how they intend to comply with my notice. That way I've got it in writing from them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Out of interest. On what type of webpages do phorm inject their ads into?

I mean, if I use google to search for Car Insurance, will half the ads I would normally see be replaced with their injected ads? or if I am visiting a forum that is paid by ads, for example overclocking cpu's, would they inject their ads there and replace the normal ads i would see? or if I have ads on my own website, do they replace those? various news portals that have ads on? or myspace/facebook *shrug*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh dear!

http://www.nebuad.com/company/press_...s_01_22_08.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the poo will hit the fan now.

This is the trial and test that BT's own tech support classed as an adware infection, They later denied they ever did it. It was a test of what was to become the Phorm Spyware system

---------- Post added at 21:46 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------

Just found this on Skyuser Forum

http://www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/polls...tml#post135285

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

true, passive for most people will be the main easy option,you can be sure there are a few people getting ready to track the trackers and then take them to the cleaners :monkey: ;)

however, if you can get the ISPs to infact write you in response, then that too could be a very good stick to use later.

i suspect their first thought would be to put you into a blacklist file of some sort, but that too perhaps opens many legal doors you can then use against them.

how do they deal with an opted-in user wanting to visit an on notice website.

and thats ignoring the fact they cant really know if the sites got a no profiling notice until they have potentially unlawfully parsed the site and processed it in some way, its all starting to sound real expensive if not impossible.

---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:56 ----------

i liked this bit best.
"we’ll only implement a solution when we can use customer data in a responsible way which safeguards privacy"

they or indeed anyone never mentions anything about paying the users a licence fee for legal use of their data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They have GOT to be joking!

Have you read their "privacy" policy? http://www.nebuad.com/privacy/uk_servicesPrivacy.php

:LOL:
There are so many holes, obvious security concerns and legal grey areas in there that even I would be willing to stand up in court and present a case against them.

These people actually make the Phorm guys seem competent, and that takes some doing!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Only the pages that contain OIX advert panels

Only if half the ad panels on that page are being rented by Phorm/OIX

No.

Not unless you sell advertising space to Phorm



For the record, I'm 100% against this system, but we need to get our facts straight if we're going to avoid being labelled as a "paranoid minority".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So true. Thanks for the answer. ATM my ISP is not signed up with these guys, and hopefully they never will. I'm an ex-ntl/VM customer, always interesting to keep up with the gossip ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I envy you - I moved to NTL just before they became Virgin because ADSL to my address was awful (fastest I could get was 1Mb, and I lost the connection completely every time it rained) due to very poor quality copper running to the house - BT admitted as much, and said it wasn't worth their while replacing it. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap:

Or even simply asking if we'd mind them making money out of it...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its a bit ridiculous.

We have to pay rent to use their technology, so why shouldnt we be able to charge then for using our property? (Our personal data)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a quick thought. My website URL itself is surely personally identifying info as I am the registered owner and a whois of my URL will bring up my name and address.

In refusing to allow Phorm/isp's to intercept my website for advertising purposes, I am also refusing to allow them to intercept my URL, or even put my URL on any form of opt-out list, as it's personally identifying data - and anyway, they say they don't collect any such data.

So, hows they gonna block my website from being intercepted by their software?

Gottcha!

With BT now admitting they lied - and the fallout and legal headache they are now gonna face, I'm hoping that ISP's will drop Phorm, or any such similar interception software. Phorm will then hopefully die a quick death. Fingers crossed!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But let's not leave it to chance. Let's keep up the intelligent discussion and, as importantly, spread the word. There are millions of internet users who don't even know about this scheme yet.

My guess is that ISP's will wait for the sting of initial reaction to fall away in the hope that people will lose interest.

This post will now unashamedly become one of those horrible little chain mail thingies:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

a small mention at the end of this "BT spin-off bans spyware"
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/ar...9&in_page_id=2
"
BBC iPlayer fans face hidden costs

"Simon Fluendy, Financial Mail
16 March 2008, 11:17am
....
BT spin-off bans spyware PlusNet has broken ranks with its parent BT by banning spyware company Phorm from its network.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm surprised that other ad companies are not either:
a: Trying to get a piece of this pie or
b: Kicking up a stink over unfair competition
If Phorm is the only ad company with their nose in our entire browsing experience at the invitation of our ISPs, then they have a significant advantage over ads that only target the site content or use spy cookies covering several sites in their network.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely this comes under data protection act and is illegal its bad enough with all the carp we get on tv about being security wise with normal mail and untrustworthy persons without isp's tying to do it under the noses of there customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

DPA covers information that can identify you, this system is more about privacy.

Your ISP has a legal duty to protect you as the data subject, the issue here is whether the information that is passed to Phorm is sufficiently anonymous to prevent breaches of the DPA.

Other topics here suggest now that there are other companies coming into this so called "contectual advertising" business. I for one think that because of the tight profit margins in the BB industry in the UK, this kind of advertising is inevitable if many ISP's want to make a profit.

I don't like it, but I think these are the issues facing ISPs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet another phorm exploit as found by Mel on ispreview.

http://www.toobadcs.co.uk/phorm/Phor...in_exploit.htm

Sorry if it has already been found..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So are you saying that you have just linked me to a site that has placed a Phorm cookie on my PC without my permission or could have ?

Just shows how easy its going to be to be infected with this spyware from Virgin Media.

And before you say Its Phorm not Virgin Media, Its Virgin Media as the servers are going to be in Virgin Media's pop sites so its Virgin Media that will be infecting us with this spyware.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Im sure it is on here somewere ,but what are you using to detect Phorm in simple terms .Please

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

have a look here

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure my website URL is personally identifying data, as any whois lookup will show my name and address.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sky have said they are looking into this as a possible revenue source. Sky make no money on their BB service at the moment, and anything that can add ££ per user/month has to be a tempting offer. You only have to look at their online portal content to see what kind of money they could make from targeted advertising.

I'd suggest though that this will take months. Virgin are already waiting to see what happens to BT/CPW (in terms of whether they make this an opt-in system, or provide a stronger opt-out that isn't just cookie based), their talks with Phorm are nothing more than that. Your sister should be safe to move to Sky.

---------- Post added at 23:22 ---------- Previous post was at 23:21 ----------

So what is the opt-out cookie provided by Webwise?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that sums it up that this opt out cookie useless.

The fact we are being told its not live.

Like I found days back this thing is being intermittent.

I found my phrom informer told me couple times there is phorm which bypassed there lump of rubbish opt out cookie.

I had a thought on this so called poll maybe its businesses who been asked they are hadly going to ask us they know the answer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The link I posted earlier holds information plus the image( which soesnt work since it is the cookie info image) which places the cookie on you pc. Please search through your cookies and delete the webwise cookie. That is how easy it is to aquire a cookie for webwise visiting any website thwey have infected with their scripts.

Phorm Opt-in cookie details

Name=uid
Content=XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|| (where XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is a 22 character "random" string)
Host=a.webwise.net
Path=/services/
Send for=Any type of connection
Expiry date 1 year

Phorm Opt-out cookie details

Name=OPTED_OUT
Content=YES
Domain=.webwise.net
Path=/
Send for=Any type of connection

The info the cookies give.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sir Tim says no to Phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well i think he has said all i need to hear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a heck of a slap in the face for Kent and the oily ad-men :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I heard about this during the night on radio 5 Live, and there's just been a piece about it on BBC Breakfast.

Having a man like this on our side could be a huge boost :)

Well done Sir Tim.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's heating up on the support forum for the BT version of this Spyware

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=210&tstart=0

If anything is posted that goes against BT or Phorm its removed by the look of things :rolleyes: BT at it's best.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thay might of not know of there past. Phorm is a new business name so searching with google would give them no info about there past issue.

It an issue of trust, I bet Phorm did not inform Virgin Media an Co. about there past history before public found out about it.

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------


He get this problem with Phorm and why it bad.

If dont know who Sir Tim Berners-Lee is, put it simply he is one who start this HTML thing in first place. He father web, with out him there would not be a:-
e-bay
google
phorm
etc

Day by day the news for Phorm get worse, next Phorm PR outfit will say Sir Tim Berners-Lee dosn't know what he is talking about. :dunce:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Tim_Berners-Lee

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From scanning through the BT forum link Sirius posted.

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...rt=45&tstart=0

Seems BadPhorm and Dephormation have been getting a lot of attention from Russia

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3drxqa

Maybe they're looking to protect their own browsing habits

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Irony: A company who claims
while secretly recording users personal data (at lease with phishing sites, they trick you into revealing personal info, phorm aren't even that open) and using it to serve "personalised" ads.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Until now I didnt really see what the issue was with Phorm on VM, and having read through many of the posts I do still think many are just nonsense bordering on conspiracy theory...

BUT sat watching TV I thought I wouldnt want anyone or anything to know what programmes I liked then making assumptions about what products interest me..

Nor would I want any system to know what food I eat every night, tailored advertising would limit my choice in some ways (Not sure if that makes sense)

On the reverse Tesco hold more information on most f you than any direct marketing software ever will.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Only if you have a clubcard, which I don't

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Picked up here too...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...17/nweb117.xml

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you don't have a clubcard and always pay by cash, they have no way of tracking you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Register has added a new piece after the weekend revelation from BT admitting they were using it last year despite lying to customers

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/17/bt_phorm_lies/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The bit that makes me chuckle in that article is the reason BT gave out at the time on the redirects to the Phorm domain:
Ironic really considering where we are now and the general customer perception of Phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like 121 media :angel: Phorm are up to there old tricks then. So PHORM if you are reading this what are your Spyware writers up to this time ??????????

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, too many posts to read, but have virgin signed up to phorm yet or not?

Or is it still only BT and talktalk?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, although unlike BT. they don't seem to have done any testing. Unlike Talk Talk they haven't currently announced any system that routes data from people who have opted out around Phorm's hardware.

Last we heard, they were considering their options.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent! Well done Sir Tim :nworthy:

Let's hope the national media make a big deal of this...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tesco and it clubcard or as it was callled once Tesco Loyal card (1993). Was started just so they could get information on customers. They need to get better information customers buying habbit's to better mange stock. Old way of doing was asking customers what buy etc. Which was expensive and people do not always tell the truth in polls.

They could of use customers Credit/Debit card number do this, but Tesco decided against doing this from linking customers to C/D cards due to Data Protection Act.

Now today we have Phorm. Yes Phorm people do not always tell the truth in polls. I would love to find out what Phorm asked/told people when ask people about Internet Add's.

PS Clubcard is an Opt-In.
Phorm is SPYCOMS.

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

It might be worth editing wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Tim_Berners-Lee

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually, I didn't mean to imply that Tesco did track people by credit/debit card nos (although, technically at least, it is feasable if not legal). I have no idea if they do. I was making the point that by using their clubcard, you do opt in, and get rewarded with point IIRC..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you have a tesco credit card that doubles up as a Club Card then they do know what you spend on the card as you get points for every £ spent on the card. And with a credit card you cant opt out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you have /wish to use the credit card, you can't opt out. However, you have the option of using cash.

If you don't want Phorm tracking your browsing then unless you wish to risk TOR, have access to a VPN or can change ISPs (usually a major hassle even assuming you can use another ISP), or are willing to trust them, then you have no option but to avoid using the internet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like BT are just as devious and untrustworthy as all the other ISP's that are in bed with Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good point but if it was easy enough for joe public to find the true identy its still no excuse for poor management. They need to go back to university learn how to run a business again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And herin lies the rub. Most people are willing to give up some element of privacy for an element of payback.
Clubcard - you allow Tesco to track your buying habits, in return they give you money and customised money off coupons. With clubcard rewards they then build in an escalator to the value of the money so ten quid of vouchers becomes forty quid of meal or cinema vouchers etc.

Google - you acknowledge they know your search history (if you are logged into google when you search), in return their searches find what you are looking for, otherwise the adverts are customised to that search, as a search page is dynamically built this is not unreasonable. The Phorm approach means you might be searching for Cars and seing adverts about iPods because you searched or surfed for them last week.

Sky multiroom - You allow the boxes to dial in to get the discount for having more than one box. You also allow them to monitor some of your viewing habits.

Phorm - they put customised adverts in some of the advertising spaces that already exist on a website. They protect you from Phising (but so does IE7 out of the box, and Safari? and you can get plugins for other browsers to do the same for free). So where is the value add to the consumer. There is none.
Or as TBL put it http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have 8 of these webwise.net uid in the first webwise folder. Thanks to our nice add on it tells them to respect my privacy.

What gets me I am VM user so my question WHY are they there.

I dont think we are be told the truth and lot of porkies. An ultimate question concidering PHORM shady past. How easy would it to make the opt out cookie an opt in cookie instead.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well only have till 28th March till BT phone line then BB will be a smaller ISP. One that is to small to be of any value to phorm also one that has already promised to not jump into bed with phorm.

I left BT over 15yrs ago I am now returning to them been through enough cable companies and stuck with them but this is the end, VM response to customers fears on Phorm and the links that are about that seem to prove they are still into the old ways is enough to make me move back.

Good luck to those who stay but I pay for a service to use as I wish I dont use it for anything illegal so feel this is an intrusion into my privacy something I refuse to give up.

All remeber if you visit webwise site for anything to search for the cookie and delete it as they are already active on the web.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thrust me i will be joining you very soon. At the moment it will be Be Unlimited for my Broadband, Sky for my TV and BT for my Phone.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might be wise to hold off on a move to BE until there are cast iron assurances that they will not implement phorm - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...opic.php?51.10

there's speculation that they may at least be in talks with them :/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking at the bottom of www.webwise.com it says:

"When Webwise is on, you receive all benefits at no additional cost if you’re a customer of one of these leading ISPs:"

then there are just two logo's

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/03/7.gif

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

If Virgin are signed up, why arn't they there? :erm:

or have I got confused about your answer?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Their logo was there when this thread started. It has subsequently been removed, at whose behest we do not know.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good. All seems to be one big privacy scam.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT have disgusted me more than ever, I'm certainly changing for the better. By the looks of the BT community forum, BT are not even interested in replying to customer's concerns so what's the point in complaining, let them crash and burn. I encourage everyone to change ISP if BT do not stop stealing our personal information.

*RANT!!*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

FFS i just wish Phorm would go jump off a cliff. Every good ISP will be a target of these Spyware pedalers soon :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes we have sky for TV will be BT for phone and Aquiss for internet since they are small good and have assured me they are not interested in introducing phorm.

If it is any use this link will help you get the phone line back at half price. http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/p...Impl133605.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another legal problem for Phorm (SPYCOMS)

Copyright Law.

Everything you do how ever trival, you automatical own the Copyright to. Everything you type etc. Now just by typing URL's you do not own the copyright to domain name but you own Copyright to it order it was entered (History). Sounds daft but that is IP law for you.

You get DVD covermount on a computer magazine. Now there little chance that magazine ownes copyright to software upon that DVD, but they own Copyright to DVD disk.

Now start charge ISP/Phorm for unauthorised reproduction and storage of you IP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IE7, Firefox and Opera all come with phishing protection built-in. Safari doesn't, but ironically that's the only major browser Phorm don't support. So there's definitely no added value for the majority of users.

For me, Phorms phishing protection is a value-subtracting proposition since I actively disable browser features I don't like; google safebrowsing, search suggestions, HTML5 ping, prefetching, HTTP referer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Woke up to find that BT has admitted lying over testing with Phorm last summer: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/17/bt_phorm_lies/

It took long enough for Virgin Media to get a response to me but I have it here. I wrote to the Group Compliance Office, 160 Great Portland Street, London W1W 5QA.

It reads:

"14th March 2008

Dear CaptHunter

I write in response to your letter received 5th March 2008.

First I would like to clarify that whilst there has been a lot of press speculation regarding a tie up between Virgin Media and Phrom, nothing has yet been implemented and we are still carrying out our analysis of how we will deploy Phorm's product offering, together with any potential impact of this operationally and from a customer perspective. Further analysis and testing is anticipated prior to any deployment of the Phorm product offering by us.

Before any new technology is implemented onto Virgin Media's network we always ensure that the technology is subject to rigorous due diligence and we will not roll out new technology until we are satisfied that it is compliant, as such we will ensure that all relevant legal and privacy compliance issues are appropriately addressed to our satisfaction before rollout.

You may be interested to know that independently Phorm have been in discussion with Ofcom, Home Office, UK Information Commissioner and are talking to the European Commission regarding their product, to provide clarity on how their product offering works and to directly address and placate any concerns that are/have been raised by these bodies. I trust that this demonstrates that they are also ensuring that they are taking concerns of users on board and that they are seeking to ensure their product is compliant and meets the requirements of the various regulatory bodies that regulate this area.

When Virgin Media does roll out this solution provided by Phorm, all customers who are due to receive the service will be notified of such and will not be forced to use the system, fully in accordance with Regulation 6 of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003. However, to reiterate, no solution has yet been implemented and will not be until we are confident that it is compliant to do so.

Yours sincerely

Ian Woodham
Virgin Media Group Data Protection Officer"

No reference is made to my refusal to allow any data to be passed on to any other companies, nor is any detailed mention of the "due diligence" (a phrase I have utter contempt for as it's always covered up in my experience), the shadowy past and questionable ethics of Phorm or the point that I shouldn't have to accept a cookie to opt out.

It's not quite a complete whitewash with all the bs about improved web experience but it could have been more detailed given the 12 day wait I've had before getting this response.

I'll think for a while before putting a response together. Thoughts anyone?


---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:30 ----------

The Foundation for Information Policy Research argues that Phorm is illegal: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7301379.stm