Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the thing is the music industry have a big voice and big bucks behind them, the poor little backyard webmaster do a lot of it for a hobby and have no voice and little money so big business think they can treat us like dirt (thats the polite expression)

wonder if a few emails for FACT etc could enlighten them as they are the "Federation Against Copyright Theft"

and BT WebWise IS copyright theft using Phorm supplied Equipment and software, which if it goes ahead will also be used by Virgin Media and Talk Talk (AKA Carphone warehouse )

peter

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 ----------

something else to throw into the mix,

look at http://www.out-law.com/page-9293

*****

"In the most recent of these three … the [USPTO] takes the position that process inventions generally are unpatentable unless they 'result in a physical transformation of an article' or are 'tied to a particular machine'," he wrote.

It has been assumed that software patents will survive this ruling because they are tied to a machine, since they cannot be useful without a computer on which to run.

But Duffy claims that more recent USPTO rulings say that a general purpose computer is not a machine in that sense, and that software is not patentable if it has to rely on a computer being the machine in that definition.

****

then later in the article

*****

The rules require first that an invention create a 'physical transformation of an article'. Duffy said that cannot be said to be true of Google's system

"The total output from the Google patent is just a mass of intangible data, and worse still it is intangible data about intangible documents. Simply put, there’s no 'physical,' no 'transformation,' and no 'article.'," wrote Duffy. "It seems impossible to imagine that a process would qualify where it only scores virtual documents by virtual links to other virtual documents."
*****

dose that not seem to be similar to the phorms system, so if my reading is correct that is phorms patents blown out the water!! and phorms patents are useless

so therefor they can't even hope for a takeover or buy out as they do not hold enforcable patents on their technology

interesting situation

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I certainly think they're relevant if they can be shown to be directly linked to the discussion at hand.

However (comma) if you want to discuss the intricacies of learning how to use and interpret traceroute, or if you want some help understanding how and why it works, then we have a wonderful (and quite friendly, if sometimes a little mad) 'Networking' section of Cable Forum which is just perfect for that sort of discussion.

You might even find that some of the techies who hang out there haven't been following this thread, but are able to give you some great advice on the subject of traceroutes ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After the music industry and 6 ISP's announced the plan to send letters to people who they 'suspect' of downloading music.

I sent my own letter to Emma, as I suspect that BT during the 2006/2007 tests of Phorm infringed my copyright of my website.

I have informed her that If Phorm is switched on, and my website is profiled, I will be billing BT for infringement, using the same level of proof the Music industry is using.

OH and I did seek legal advice through my Union membership which gives me free 30 minutes with a solicitor. I was told much the same as has been stated before by other members of this forum.

I have informed Emma that I have taken legal advice, and will be acting on that advice once Phorm is tested by the 10,000 in the first wave.

It will be interesting to see her reply. Her leegal advice VS my legal advice.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She will ask you to send the name and proof the domian name is yours then they will add it to a black list to not be profiled, which is wrong it is upto BT to make sure they follow robot.txt or any legal on website the says Phorm is forbidden to harvest, phorm the website.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ACtually the phrase you should use is "sought, er.. obtained er legal advi - er opinion" - you are being far too UNambiguous. If you continue to make such precise statements there is a danger that people will know what you mean!!

;)

Good on you. But I will be surprised if you get a reply. You can also try the BT Retail legal boys - they don't reply either.

Chief Counsel Commercial Law (Consumer),

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Big credit for that - getting free advice from the Union solicitor was a very nice move.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it time a group of people start up a vouluntary help group bit like one that deals with helping small website owners fight larger companies using copyrighted content. Sure if one was started then we could try to get help from the EU just as other groups looking after the evironment, human rights etc.

Is it time to get more organised.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've given this a lot of thought, with help from friends and solicitors... Don't want to say too much else at this stage... But it is going to happen if Phorm is ever switched on again.

And BT/Phorm are in for a very unwelcome suprise too.

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regulars will know that I am very wary of us being seen as "organised".

I think that one of the strongest things working in our favour is that we are simply customers of the main ISPs who object to a new proposal that will affect our privacy. If we become a single voice then we lose that advantage and it just becomes a fight between two large groups and people may not identify with us in the same way.

My experience is that once a movement becomes "organised" it becomes seen as political and the accusations start to fly about the "real reasons" for any protests. We'd end up spending any air-time justifying our existence and most likely alienate the whole of Middle England who still smell commies at every turn.

I would have thought that these forums should suffice especially this one as it has the PM facility. It is also wide open to scrutiny and transparency is one of our key issues.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 ----------

Consider my interest as thoroughly peaked...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might even be worth looking at a registration fee to allow you to dsiplay a logo saying you are a partner to this body and any infringments would be dealt with...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i think that is a good idea as a sort of representaive body in general for webmaster with legal issues, phorm being one of many but i tend to agree with peter n

and this is diluting the topic

if you start anything pm me though

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know what you are saying and I wouldn't normally say get more organised but if Phorm does start to be rolled out vis all larger ISPs then small website developers, those with charity websites do need something. I would have said the ICO, ripa etc would do the job but sadly they seem to be lacking in vision, responsibility or understanding that or blindly led by the nose through all the BS.. MPO

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you,

I have a lot of copyright publications that has been given to me for free by the publishers and authors. They are on a secure section of the site, for the benefit of my members only.

One interesting point also came up..

Would the use of BT by implimenting the Phorm profiling system be an intent to breach website copyright?

Unfortunatly a test case may be needed to decide the answer to that one. A case could be taken forward before the system went live, and that case would be strengthened by the fact that as BT have publicly admitted profiling sites in 2006.

Unfortunatly a question was just raised in the session, and would be something for a more experienced solicitor would need to look at.

It is a nice warm cuddly feeling to know as a web master I have lots of rights in my favour.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fair enough - thanks for the link Rob.
gnilddif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

started a new thread over on the networking bit requesting help with route monitoring here .

will let you all know if anything turns up

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd say that it's another one of those back-boiler ideas - not needed just yet but it may be very useful later. At the moment we have nothing to fight in this way because the system is not in use and we don't know how it will be implemented when it finally raises it's head above the parrapets.

In the meantime pointing people to the existing forums and sites like The Register should suffice to raise awareness and maybe encourage some more people to take an active interest.

Dephormation Pete has a knack of being one step ahead of most of us so I'm going to sit back and wait to see his take on this. I suspect that it will be loud and proud whatever it is.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have to agree with you Peter in the mean time keep plugging on slipping in the odd reminder and a mention of the marriage between British Telecom and Webwise/phorm seemed funny having a poster unregistered posting on ISPreview from France and knows about Phorm so we are getting the message far and wide...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see BT have extended the £29.99 reconnect offer to September.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....html?t=878915

Now if VM would have some bottle and state whether they intend to deploy phorm`s bot or not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did you see the link I posted a few days ago?

The Tehran Times has covered the story and I even found a link to it on the Iraq Museum International website of all places.

At this rate we may even see a story or two in the British press.

Speaking of which - anybody want to predict which football team will be sponsored by Phorm next season - my money is on Web Scam United. :cool:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope will be a local team like the Walsall Webwise or Peterborough Phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unless they go abroad - then they could sponsor Into Mi-line

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:32 ----------

If anyone was wondering how Phorm plan to implement their no medical, religious etc policy and thought that the system wouldn't create a profile then you may be enlightened by this quote from an interview with Kent.

"We will not let advertisers use words that might relate to sensitive topics such as adult content, medical conditions and so on."

In other words they are still going to gather the information and can process it and the only "control" on the use of that information is that the advertisers will be given a black-list of key words. Hardly the most secure solution since this is exactly how spam filters work and the amount of spam has increased year on year.

It is also worth noting that the above statment was made on 10th April 2008 - exactly two months to the day after Phorm received the Interim Privacy Report from 80/20 Thinking which stated that...

"...information from websites and queries regarding sexual content, political
preferences, medical health, racial origin should be blocked from
processing."

So Phorm have clearly decided to ignore the Interim PIA and will continue to harvest and process this extremely personal and private information and there's nothing in his staement to say that the "random" number cookie will not contain references based on this information.

All this is saying is that if you have a stroke you won't get adverts from any clinics but you will be bombarded with adverts for a day trip to Lourdes or a one handed tin-openner.

---------- Post added at 15:16 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Did I really say that?

"We're.. always using (the Web) as an integration platform and a collaboration platform, rather than just seeing it as a rather opportunistic punt." - Hugo Drayton CEO UK Phorm Speaking in February 2004 when he was Manager of the Telegraph Group of newspapers.

Amazing how some people lose their principles when you wave a few fivers in front of them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting, a quick Google for quotes by Hugo Drayton also reveals a sincerely held concern for protecting private business from negative impact;

Where [BBC] is not helping UK plc is in doing anything that has a negative impact on private businesses in Britain," said Hugo Drayton, chairman of the British Internet Publishers' Association. "Selling ads is not very helpful and is clearly detrimental to others."

Rather like Phorm really. What business would want their private unencrypted communications with their customers intercepted, and the marketing intelligence used to sell advertising for lazy competitors? That would have a negative impact on private business in Britain, and clearly be detrimental.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Q - How many Phorm execs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

A1 - None - they can't afford a new bulb.
A2 - None - they'll just steal someone elses light.
A3 - Only one. Kent will hold the bulb while the whole world revolves around him.
A4 - None - they're all too busy screwing us.
A5 - None - they just click their fingers and the ICO does it for them.
A6 - Two - one to fit the bulb and another one to search through your cupboards.
A7 - Four Hundred - one to fit the bulb and three hundred and ninety-nine to tell everyone why the new bulb is better than Google.
A8 - Ten Thousand and one - one to fit the bulb and ten thousand to try and find the off switch.
A9 - Fish (Surrealist joke)
A10 - One - but he'll do it when you're not looking and you won't be told about it for two years.
A11 - One - but he'll try to sell you something whilst he's doing it.
A12 - None - why screw when you can spin.
A13 - None - they'd rather keep us in the dark.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Florence

I have a number of websites that ar Non Profit and host a number of websites for Non Profit Groops and charity websites as well, all of them ar covered by DHEA's Terms and Conditions what is very long.

From the T&C's
I think this will put a spanner in the works for Phorm. :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:D

Make sure you get over to Dephormation site to look at the Webmaster tools, including the Webwise blocking/redirection ones and the invoicing ones that roll off logs and invoices to send to the ISP's running Webwise.
www.dephormation.org.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You have not yet received one of Emma's little emails then, telling you that the wording on the site does not matter: the parsing script can't read it as it only looks at the 10 most popular non noise words. If you let google visit your site, phorm is free to visit too, make a copy and profile all your visitors from your content.

The one thing about this that makes me want to spit is that BT/phorm have the instruction all wrong. An intercept does not take place if the site being profiled hosts the oix advertising script. What is needed is a whitelist of all these sites: they are part of the oix partnership and can be profiled as much as they like (as long as they have the targeted ad script on their site).

Phormed ISPs, OIX partners and the handful of phorm shareholders who are happy to be profiled can all play in the little pond all on their own. Well away from the rest of us.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

It would not surprise me too much if BT's in-house lawyers are busy catching up on everything to do with DPI and who may complain, who may need compensation, and who may be canceling holiday plans for a few years. One or two were happy to ask many questions a week ago. I expect they are not yet up to steam.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

Most copyright / royalty issued are handled by just one body on behalf of everyone, i.e. records played on radio.

For website copyright / royalties to succeed they will need to be 'managed' by a similar body. Once it is set up, claims will be much easier to process. It is all a matter of getting everyone to agree the steps from A to B.

It is really easy for ISPs to report on which copyrighted sites have been visited by phormed customers - they have all the router logs - and from there it is a simple matter to add in the royalty charge for each 'impression'. No need to give any IP address information - all nice and anonymous.

If website owners want phorm to succeed then they charge less royalty than the ISPs' share of the advertising revenue. Charge just 1p more and the ISPs will soon want to be free of all the hassle of auditing the royalties due. [Anyone who supplies the copying equipment is also liable for royalties, so don't feel you have to limit what you charge for royalties to the ISPs' share.]

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

There is a lot more info to be gained from little quotes like that too. Advertisers can't use the words. Look at the other side of that coin too - I believe certain content sites from one of those phrases make up over 60% of search engine searches and are always looking for increase revenue from their advertising real estate. Of the rest, 10% now relate to pharmacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh I had one of them Mudslug she even asked me to prove which domain names were mine and she would add me to the black list. I am sure if I went into the library borrowed a book and took it for granted that bercause it is in the public library I can copy pages out of it without specifically contacting the author first to request permission.. Same with websites thye can see our rules so can whois the domain name and con tact us asking if we mind... then build their white list of sites they can phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Trace route would be like the post office writing on the back of a letter all the places the letter went on route

1 you taking it from your house to the post box (hop one)
2 the van to the sorting office,
3 the sorting office to the truck,
4 the truck to the sorting hub,
5 the hub to the correct local delivery office
6 local delivery office to the post man
7 postman to final destination.

Now it could get misrouted, say SG14 read as SO14 and sent to the wrong sorting office (Southampton, not Stevenage) and then need correcting so that would add other hops, a truck could break down and so a replacement truck would add into the list adding more hops.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks.

The concern was about how it relates to Phorm and Webwise. It was a gentle nudge in the direction of saying that the thread was getting a bit bogged down with technical discussions and note swapping that contained no actual Phorm related content.

The general agreement is that it doesn't directly relate at present but it needs to be monitored for possible signs of Phorm activity. The nice thing is that it was discussed and resolved without any problems - that does great credit to everyone here.

Pete (Bluecar1) has started a seperate thread for that subject and he'll let us know if anything comes to light.

It's important that every who can contributes - just run an occasional scan and keep our eyes open in general for anything unusual. The main reason that BT got away (so far) with their hidden trials in 2006/2007 was that most of us would have assumed that any problems were just "one of those things" - we know better now and we have the tools (or at least the friends with tools) to be able to check for ourselves.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm Inc US:dozey: sums it up well.
Did I miss the test again then?:cool:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First time poster long time lurker. I have followed this issue for several months, after first reading about it on El reg. I have had Virgin Media broadband for several years. In the whole it has been pretty good, although the past 6 months I have seen a downturn in the service. Connection issues such as DNS, DHCP problems, blank pages loading. The other day I had a blank browser page suddenly pop-up with an URL I had looked at earlier in the day. Had me paranoid, so did virus scan etc..

Virgin Media have been a little too quiet for my liking in regard to how deep they are in with Phorm. From Virgins own site "we have run a small technical lab test on a private internal network, not connected to the internet". Interesting how they add the last 5 words. Not sure how much they would glean from such a test.

If they were to introduce Webwise, they would lose all 4 services we have with them, even though it would cost a small fortune to move to other suppliers. I would make sure the whole estate knows about the scumware.

Clearly BT have jumped in with both feet, and are tied into a least doing a large scale trial. They probably have already purchased the servers required, and are currently gathering dust somewhere. I have read I few comments about whether Phorm kit is still sat on the Kingston RAS. Has anyone asked them that question?

I have been looking at the illegal downloads issue and found a link to the consultation paper that BERR have produced:-http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file47139.pdf

Alternative regulatory options considered:

Option A4: Requiring that ISPs allow the installation of filtering equipment
that will block infringing content (to reduce the level of copyright infringement taking
place over the internet) or requiring ISPs themselves to install filtering equipment that
will block infringing content.

I take it Phorms system could quite easily do this.

Hmmm interesting conversation between ISP's and government departments.
ISP: You want us to crack down on illegal activity, we have been in touch with a company called Phorm that have the technology called webwise which can see everything users visit on the internet, and there fore allows us to block infringing content. We gain revenue from the targeted ads we provide to our customers, but it also allows us to do the biding of your paymasters so its in both our interests.

Government: Sounds good to me, we cant see anything wrong with this, you'll be providing a valuable service to your customers......and to the government.

I find it rather unnerving that the government seems to be turning a blind eye to Webwise/Phorm, there's something bigger afoot. I will continue following this issue, as I believe that Webwise and other similar projects will break the WWW.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome:


Quite. What value would such a test present if it weren't consuming content from the Internet? I did ask them what content they used (with a view to probable copyright infringements), but they didn't reply.
Just a personal view, unless you act now to take the business away, I don't think they will feel the pain.
And look at it this way, if they do see sense, and you want to restore your services you always have that option.
I've been pleasantly surprised by my new ISP. Customer service and quality of services seems to be a big differentiator for the smaller ISPs.
If you believe Gavin Patterson of BT, this is the final week of the internet without spyware, before Phorm is switched on... for the third time. Of course, BT have been saying that since 14 February 2008.
Have you seen the FoI documents on Dephormation. If not you might find them interesting to read.
I still haven't been told by the Home Office, when they were first contacted about Phorm, who they were contacted by, and the details of the request and reply. How hard can that be? Its taken them 3 months, and I'm still waiting.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

1984 is not around the corner but it`s here now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just seen Phorm & friends have tried to nominate Alex for KFO. They have failed already.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Still all illegal btw dont forget ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent got two SOS votes today - I think they are his first ever. What's the chances that the same people who posted those are the ones who KFO'd Alex?

In fact I'll bet that most of us could name at least one of those people?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they maybe 3 now

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something I didn't mention earlier I'd like to thank the people who are trying to bring the ISP's to book. Every IT site I seem to read these days seems to mention the illegal trials.

Dephormation, I know where you are coming from regarding cancelling VM. I have looked into switching providers, something I would have never even thought of doing until I found out about Webwise. I'm quite some distance away from the exchange, plus would mean paying to have a BT line installed, although I believe that they are running an offer atm. There are other costs involved, in moving the other services. I'll do what VM are doing and sit on the fence for the time being.

I have read most of the details that have surfaced in regards to the BT trials and the Webwise system. Some of it regarding the technical analysis does go over my head a bit, but get the gist of most of it.

I am going back over stuff that I remember reading on this thread and elsewhere. Has anyone contacted/had any replies back from Google, in regards to BT/Phorm using the Googlebot to determine whether they are allowed to profile sites? Whether they are thinking of doing what Phorm are doing?

It would be interesting if Google were to take action against BT/Phorm and block all BT's IP's, if they were to ever do another trial? It would be fun to see the BT execs and Kent's face, as he always seems happy, to want to chuck mud at Google.(Not saying Google are much better, at least I have a choice in whether to use Google or not, without having to switch ISP's).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm with BT and I've advised people on the BT forums not to rush to change suppliers just yet - unless they can get a better deal or better service - just because of Phorm.

If BT do introduce the system it is extremely likely that every single ISP will be doing the same thing within months and at least BT is on it's back foot in the "keeping things secret" stakes so fence-sitting is a very sensible thing to do at the mo.

The only thing I would advise is that no-one takes on a new fixed-term contract and if their ISP contacts them asking them to renew I suggest refusing and telling them why.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you do decide to sit on the fence, I'd strongly recommend you send one of these if you haven't done it already;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/dpa_notices/

It should help if you later discover BT/Virgin have been up to something naughty.

In my view, the safest best is moving ISP now, particularly if you're on BT (both because they've trialled in the past without telling you, and because they say they will only give you 24 hrs notice... yet it takes 5 days to get a MAC code).

Given Gavin Patterson's statements at the AGM, if you are on BT and fence sitting, call BT now and ask for a MAC code so that you can move if you need to (don't take any rubbish about the system being 'down', its always 'down', and you are entitled to receive your MAC code in 5 days).

Also, while I'm plugging my letter wizards, use one of these to get talking with your MP;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/letters/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome and great find. I'll study that document today. I think it opens up a new route for some focussed FOI requests to DBERR and also for informing MP's. I'll certainly be telling mine.

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

It occurs to me - is anyone in touch with the security services? I know it sounds daft - but it seems to me that although this "sounds" like it might have the security services at the back of it (snoop on the internet- great idea) the reality might be that it is all a politicians idea, (think of a conversation between Jim Hacker PM and Arnold - the retired cabinet secretary, publicly heading up the Freedom of Information campaign but secretly representing an entirely different agenda - Hacker in favour of DPI, and Arnold explaining gently to him that introducing DPI would be a very BAD idea) - maybe the real spooks are aghast - because of the massive level of public distrust it generates, and because it will lead to a rise in encrypted communication which they simply can't deal with.

Anyone got experience in talking to the spooks?
Counter terrorism - Special Branch - MI5 and MI6 "SIS" etc.

I think the sort of letter needed would be a clear summary of the situation so far (including the DBERR documents about filesharing), a very simple explanation of the kit and what it does, and an explanation of the likely outcome in terms of loss of trust in the internet and the rise in encrypted communication (which would become cheaper and more widely available if Phorm is introduced widely) with the implications of that, for the costs and feasibility of legitimate "routine" surveillance activity.

Any thoughts?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I sincerely doubt that you'll get a response of any substance from either MI5 or MI6.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wrote to google ages ago. No reply. (So that is BT Retail legal department, BT DPA request, ICO, Google, and a few others, including half my MEP's who haven't replied.)

But no reason not to write. I never worry too much about not getting replies. the letter still makes them think.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

I wasn't worried about getting a reply!

---------- Post added at 09:12 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

It occurs to me that even a CAT or a parrot can sign up to BT Webwise and effect a change in the primary account holders T&C's and hence, contract with the ISP. One keypress required when the invitation arrives - no password, no login.

M'Lud - my client BT plc holds that the cat and the parrot are legally competent and this contract is valid and enforceable. I rest my paws/beak.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The worrying thing is my cat regularly decides that she wants to attract my attention by walking on my keyboard whilst I am on-line. I shall attempt to inphorm her.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL Mr Jones, very funny!! Absolutely possible given the limited info about the opt in/out page they have shared with their customers. ROFL!

-----------

Indeed. If you get any resistance, just say you've already checked with OFCOM and you know your rights... could they just check the system again and see if it is coming back up online, you're happy to hold for them... The system might suddenly be working after 30-60secs on hold - worked for me. Oh, when you first get through and they say they are going to put you through to x, stop them! Ask them to check first that x is there and able to take the call. I also had a couple of times when I got a "Sorry this line is not available, please call back later" type messages until I used this tactic. I have got my MAC code now (valid until August) and when it expires I shall get another, ...and another..., until they decide what they are doing with the Webwise Phorm abhorent product and then I will decide (Should I stay or Shoud I Go...?)

...Make sure you use a free 0800 number to call them - I always look up 0870/0844/0845 numbers on www.SayNoTo0870.com to get the number I can dial free or included in my minutes bundle :)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL R Jones my cats have often walked across my keyboard one cat bless her she died last year used to move in and lie on it if she wanted attention and I was too busy...
But I wouldn't use BT for my internet just like I n o longer use Virgin Media for my intewrnet, mind they are trying to take over £30 for my last days billing so we now have th letter battle for a total breakdown on how they come up with the charges considering I moved last year to the 2meg BB and phone as I was only on incapaccity so could no longer afford their 4meg package, seems billing was amended to reflect my wishes but the package wasn't. Who is at fault me or them.... the fight will go on.

Entanet is a large company reselling IPstream on their own centrals they have no intentions of adding phorm since majority of their customers are business customers.
Zen have their own centrals plus some LLU in Rochdale they are also not planning on implementing Phorm on their network.

If you go via a small ISP that uses BT managed then Phorm on 21cn could be implemented so you have to check how they new ISP is supplied.

I have to say my service since leaving Virgin Media has been excelent i get faster speeds 24/7 if it slows down in the evening I still have a respectable 2meg unlike VM 512k

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

an interesting find due to the new copyright thread

from http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988...-ch2-pb1-l1g16

Rights of Copyright Owner

The acts restricted by copyright

16 The acts restricted by copyright in a work (1) The owner of the copyright in a work has, in accordance with the following provisions of this Chapter, the exclusive right to do the following acts in the United Kingdom—
(a) to copy the work (see section 17);
(b) to issue copies of the work to the public (see section 18);
(c) to perform, show or play the work in public (see section 19);
(d) to broadcast the work or include it in a cable programme service (see section 20);
(e) to make an adaptation of the work or do any of the above in relation to an adaptation (see section 21);
and those acts are referred to in this Part as the “acts restricted by the copyright”.
(2) Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who without the licence of the copyright owner does, or authorises another to do, any of the acts restricted by the copyright.
(3) References in this Part to the doing of an act restricted by the copyright in a work are to the doing of it—
(a) in relation to the work as a whole or any substantial part of it, and
(b) either directly or indirectly; and it is immaterial whether any intervening acts themselves infringe copyright.
(4) This Chapter has effect subject to—
(a) the provisions of Chapter III (acts permitted in relation to copyright works), and
(b) the provisions of Chapter VII (provisions with respect to copyright licensing).

17 Infringement of copyright by copying
(1) The copying of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in every description of copyright work; and references in this Part to copying and copies shall be construed as follows.
(2) Copying in relation to a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work means reproducing the work in any material form.
This includes storing the work in any medium by electronic means.
(3) In relation to an artistic work copying includes the making of a copy in three dimensions of a two-dimensional work and the making of a copy in two dimensions of a three-dimensional work.
(4) Copying in relation to a film, television broadcast or cable programme includes making a photograph of the whole or any substantial part of any image forming part of the film, broadcast or cable programme.
(5) Copying in relation to the typographical arrangement of a published edition means making a facsimile copy of the arrangement.
(6) Copying in relation to any description of work includes the making of copies which are transient or are incidental to some other use of the work.

there is more but i will not dilute the thread here, well done to felix the cat over on BT forums

the discussion on copyright is here

so the initial mirror copy and the derivative work are both covered under "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988" and it is BT's / Phorm problem to ensure they do not break it, 16(2) above makes that clear

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some interesting documents on ukcrypto mentioned in a mailing by Simon Watkin.
Here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That link doesn't work (for me, anyway). Try this one
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=5239&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good point and well done!

When quoting links from BT Beta forums it is best to be logged OUT of the forum before copying the link. Links when you are logged IN will only work for another logged in member of BT Beta forums. (It is a wonderful piece of forum software they use over there - like trying to drive a car while wearing a full diving suit and a blindfold - but that's BT for you)

If you want to post over on BT Beta and in particular in any of the less obviously "webwise" places on that forum (there is only ONE official Webwise thread - we call it our Webwise ghetto) please PM me first. I'll explain in the PM what is going on there to widen customer awareness of Webwise despite forum restrictions. It would be helpful if anyone who posts there outside the official webwise ghetto thread, understands how to avoid spoiling the discussion. It's all in a good cause - INphorming lots more people with the aim of REphorming them.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------


Even better, get her to write to BT. She can ask about the Webwise invitation page and say she is worried about getting into trouble and will she be responsible for altering the T&C's and would she have to testify in court? If you are good at puns, then it could be a most amusing letter - but send it to the legal boys - they may get the point - and if it's funny, they will read it to the end. (and delay the trials a bit more)

Phrases like contract claws, paws for thought, fit fur purrpose, within a whisker of getting sued, spring to mind - I'm sure you can think of more.

I'm serious!! Why is everyone ROFL'ing ;) ;) :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Pete - I should have mentioned taking precautions :)

The "stay or go now" question is something for people to weigh-up and I can't fault your take on the situation. For me it's about knowing that BT are under the microscope - better the devil you know and all that - but only on the basis that the full roll-out hasn't been announced yet.

Certainly anyone who feels that they don't want to contribute anymore to BT's earnings can and should vote with the cash.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another Slashdot article on NebuAd and another ISP:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/07/25/232245.shtml

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see Nebuad's opt out page http://www.nebuad.com/privacy/optout.php now claims


However there does not appear to be any measures in place to prevent any remote website from opting you back-in.

For example, if you view google's cache of Nebuad's opt-in page
the a.faireagle.com and b.faireagle.com cookies created look suspiciously like opt-in cookies to me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Plusnet have a forum topic on Phorm:

http://community.plus.net/forum/inde...opic=61201.416

Damn:

"Please Note: Registration to Community is only available to customers of PlusNet, Force9, Free-Online and Metronet."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I read this Hansard article with some concern, to put it mildly.

See Baroness Vadera response to Baroness Miller...

http://www.publications.parliament.u...80722w0009.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From your reference, Pete:

I cannot believe I have just read that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Purrrfect post. If anything it will bring a smile to their faces, I bet Emma is like the cat who got all the cream.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dear Lady Vadera,

I am very concerned about a statement you made in Parliament in
response to a question posed by Baroness Miller on July 22nd. *The
question posed and your answer was:

'Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer asked Her Majesty's Government:

* * * What advice have they issued to internet service providers about
(a) obtaining consent from, and (b) informing internet users and
website owners about, trials of new technologies that utilise deep
packet inspection or cookies or both. [HL4867]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business,
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (Baroness Vadera): The Government have
not issued advice to the internet service providers (ISPs) on this
issue. It is the responsibility of the ISPs to reach a view on whether
any new service they provide is within the law.

The Government strongly support the use of technology that supports and
enhances, rather than hinders and intrudes upon, the privacy of users’
data. Both the Information Commissioner and the Home Office have
offered comments to internet users and ISPs on aspects of new services
aimed at targeted advertising.'

I sincerely hope that you did not have the company called 'Phorm' in
mind when replying to Baroness Miller.**I am aware that Kent Erturgrul,
CEO of Phorm has been meeting with Peers and Members of Parliament in
order to promote his company. *Unfortunately, I don't believe Mr.
Erturgrul to be an independent or trustworthy source of analysis of the
merits or demerits Phorm's adware technology. *

I would like you remind your Lordship that several independent bodies
and technical experts (The FIPR, Richard Clayton, The Open Rights
Group, and Tim Berners-Lee - among others) have raised serious concerns
about privacy and security issues with the use of Phorm's technology.

While I agree that it is the responsibility of ISPs to ensure they are
within the law, it is the responsibility of the government and state to
enforce the law. *Reassurances that certain behaviour does not break
the law from an ISP should carry as much merit as reassurances from
anyone else accused of committing a crime; the reassurance itself
should not suffice to dismiss the charges.

I do hope that the government intends to take the issue of data
protection and privacy more seriously.**A public loss of confidence in
data protection and privacy would have dramatic negative effects on UK
democracy, commerce, and internet freedom.

Yours sincerely,

-phormwatch

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What assessment they have made of the sufficiency of implied consent for the interception for commercial purposes of internet users' unencrypted communications by internet service providers. [HL4900]

Perhaps we should propose our own "intra-ISP" DPI system - one that still DPI's end user's communications but instead of using it to build a profile of the end-user, builds a profile of websites, collecting potentially commercially sensitive information, and ask the goverment if it stands by the implied consent argument :)

Suppose our system collects information about commercial websites such as the number of people who click on the "add to basket" link for each product on a site, and the price of the product at the time it was clicked on. The total number of visits to every webpage, and the average amount of time spent looking at each page. The post popular search terms used to find the page.

If like Phorm aims we can get 70% or better coverage, we'll see enough of end-users communications with commercial websites to build a detailed picture of the websites' businesses, and will be able to offer this for sale to whoever is interested.

Or we could have a system that monitors what goods an end user adds to their shopping basket on one site and pops up an offer to undercut their purchases. So for example you might be shopping on tesco and when you click on the checkout link, a page would pop-up offering the same basket of goods for 10% less if you complete your purchase with another site, the great thing is having profiled your purchases, the other site wouldn't need to spend much money designing its site as you'd already chosen the goods, so it would just need a checkout page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am a member of the PlusNet's Forum, I have a Force9 account and a PlusNet account as well. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pretty grim, but what a performance by the Baroness Miller! That lady asked some well Phormed questions. See what a REphormed politician can do! Those are the best questions I've seen ANYONE ask at that level and the beauty of it is that the answers, lamentable though they are, are now on the record.

Well done Baroness Miller.

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 ----------

Great. If you want to refer them to various information sites you can post a link to my C/F welcome post 11849.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ever the optimist I see a hint of the Govt saying that the ISP have the responsibility to make sure that they don't cross the line on spying,thus if the police do take action then the ISP cannot involve any Govt departments in their defence. Maybe;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The government still on full charge stampede to spy on us but also backtracking a little incase it turns round to bite them in the backside.

Baroness Miller has to be recomended the women is doing a great job she has listened to both sides and made her own mind up about Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did wonder about that. "Its legal if its legal; hey, we never said it is legal".

But sadly she defers to the Home Office (who've issued that advice note which strips web sites of the right to expect private unencrypted communication) and the ICO (who can't see anything seriously wrong with tens of thousands of people having their private communications intercepted twice).

I'd prefer to read something that indicates BERR understand the parasitic effect of systems like Phorm on ecommerce.

So I wrote to Baroness Vadera anyway. Just to remind her.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I like to see something that indicated any technological expertise in any government, my own included. At least in the US there seems to be some members with technology backgrounds. Our parliament here seems to be made up of ex civil servants and party officials, lawyers, accountants and farming interests. I don't think there is one scientist or engineer among them. Don't know about your lot.

This paper was linked on BadPhorm. It's a valuable insight into privacy and conceptions of privacy. In particular, it debunks the "nothing to hide" argument.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...ract_id=998565

There is a link to download the PDF. Worth reading from end to end. There are several arguments that may help convince those that don't understand the implications of a loss of a right to privacy and what it really means.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Full Tiddles post is here:
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=0&start=1440

gnilddif

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

I informed Google about a month ago and had no reply.
gnilddif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is slightly off-topic but is another appalling invasion of our privacy that makes Phorm almost seem mild in comparison and has drawn criticism from Simon Davies and other parties. It makes you wonder what on earth our leaders are smoking. In fact this one is so ludicrously bad I want to scream.

Apparently we will be subjected to round-the-clock Olympic broadcasts from giant big-brother-type screens in 60 towns and cities, and these screens will be made permanent:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle4393535.ece

No doubt advertising is going to play a big part in this and councils will get a big fat payoff.

How can anyone even begin to think that is a good idea that won't cause a storm of protest? I can't believe this isn't some kind of hallucination or bad joke.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

our town got one of them and guess what it not making money infact it is costing the tax payers.

on a side note anyone seen the new friends reunited ad, does it remind you of another company?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent read and very enlightening views on the meaning of privacy. I notice once again our good friend Bruce Schneier (Chief Security Technology Officer of BT) is well quoted from the Eternal Value of Privacy article on "wired.com" .

This BT/Phorm/Webwise/ (Government spying??) relationship must sit very heavy on his conscience. It seems to go against many beliefs he has written about.

Incidentally, I love Bruce's quote in that article in "wired.com" on countering the faulty premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong.

"Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy." The real choice is liberty versus control. Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny. Liberty requires security without intrusion, security plus privacy. Widespread police surveillance is the very definition of a police state. And that's why we should champion privacy even when we have nothing to hide"

@R Jones - You should use that quote in some targeted BT correspondence to Emma ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Morning, all. If anyone is interested, I've exported and sanitized a version of all my Google email alerts from April to July 2008 on the word 'Phorm'. I compiled all the emails into one big text file, which I have just uploaded to BadPhorm.

It is currently awaiting approval.

I thought this might come in handy for anyone looking for a news article on Phorm which appeared on the web in the past few months or is doing some other kind of research. If I had the time, I would measure (subjectively) the ratio of positive vs. negative articles, and how this changed over time.

Anyway, I'll post the URL shortly.

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

A *very interesting* technological solution to ISP snooping:

http://code.google.com/p/obstcp/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No disrespect but I think you are possibly mixing up privacy (the right to peace and quiet) with privacy (I don't want all my date wire tapped). I don't think Phorm is mild by comparison as Phorm/WebWise affects everybody in the world who has a website with HTTP and certainly those on BT. These large screens only affect 0.00001% of the worlds population at a guess.

But saying that I do agree that it is a disgraceful invasion of our privacy and you are right to complain ;) albeit slightly off-topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome:

To any Plusnet customers here to learn about Phorm/Webwise. (And any other guests/lurkers)

If you are new to the whole subject, then there some helpful links here in my welcome post 11849.

One piece of advice - learn to read between the lines of any public statement or reassuring email from your ISP. It's more important what they DON'T say, than what they DO say.

ISP's can say a number of reassuring things that sound as if they are not using or going to use Phorm. They may even deny ever having a relationship with the company or ever having done trials - but experience tells us that they may be being economical with the truth, they may be lying and they may be simply trying to confuse you with semantics.

I don't know what Plusnet are up to. But push hard for clear explanations and denials that are UNambiguous, keep pushing, and don't be satisfied with the sort of platitudes or lies that have been used by ISP's such as BT - or the fence sitting that Virgin Media have indulged in.

Anyway welcome to the debate - great to have you onboard.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google 'Phorm' Alerts compilation is here:

http://badphorm.co.uk/download.php?view.21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's important for people to realise that this is not just a BT issue.

BT is just the main focus of many of the discussions because they are known to have have conducted secret trials of Webwise and have publicly announced - albeit under pressure - that they plan to use this system.

From an ISPs point of view this is potentially a big money maker and if it goes ahead all of the other ISPs will effectively have to join in or close down.

Even if they didn't it will still affect you because Phorm and BT will be reading and processing everything that you send or receive to any BT customers. BT have not said that they won't use this information to profile and target other ISPs customer but you should read this article from the BBC which reports that BT have already identified and targetted Tiscali customers and are likely to be sued for this behaviour.

If you wouldn't want your postman to open and read your letters then you need to join the fight to stop ISPs from being allowed to open and read your internet data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To add more intrugue into this on another forum a person posting as unregistered picke dup on my spelling mistake ifnore instead of ignore all others had understood but he said it was confusing, I got curious since he said he followed a link from another site to the thread.

He seems to be from here so why are they interested in phorm?

@ R Jones I started a thread on ISPreview knowing we have a forum rep checking weekly and one member posted a link to a scanned copy of his letter. link to scanned letter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Personally I don't think it is a great money spinner if customers have the legal opt in choice as instructed by the ICO. That is why Phorm craftily had it originally (illegally) as opt out as the only choice as default. We have to ensure that if it ever does see light of day customers are fully aware of what happens if they opt in and the implications on their privacy. We should also ensure that they know that under the current model of operation their data is intercepted opt in or opt out so they can vote with their feet should they wish to do so.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well; like DPI, it's another intrusion, and there are other points of similarity with Phorm: unwanted advertising, the lack of an opt-in choice (unless you count shutting your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears, which has H&S implications), and no doubt there will be CCTV cameras attached to (or near) the screens to record any attempts to smash the wretched things. I was intrigued (and heartened) by Simon Davies/Privacy International's condemnation of them, Simon being an expert on public CCTV.

Apart from anything else, the sheer lack of taste is staggering, as is the arrogance in thinking we're all interested in sport.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even with a 10% take up amongst the big three ISPs, you're still looking at 1,700,000 people. If Phorm pay the ISP's £1 per opted-in customer per week you are still looking at £88,400,000 per year.

That's a lot of money for basically allowing Phorm to do all of the work - they don't even have to pay for the equipment.

In order to reduce the ISP's income by the same amount of money you'd need to persuade over 5,000,000 customers to move to a none Phorm using ISP - assuming that there are any left.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi - this Anti-Phorm website I started a while back is unfinished:

http://business-openletter.blogspot.com/

If anyone would like to finish the text in full, I will publish it immediately. I could use some help, as I have many things on my table at the moment.

If we can get this done, we can publish it on business community websites, forums, and newsgroups.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's a few huge difference that make it irrelevent to this discussion - it's not targetted and it's nothing to do with Phorm, ISPs or internet privacy.

Phorm have tried many times to create this sort of false comparison - saying that Webwise is not as bad as something else. It never stands up to basic scrutiny and is only ever done to distract people. It usually happens just around the same time that there is a big fall in Phorm's share prices.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Assuming you were correct (we could argue hypothetically all day ;) percentages ) all you will need is one national Phorm-Free ISP and think they could clean up and reduce that figure considerably. (Virgin Media I hope your listening).

All ISP's who commit to Phorm could lose considerable custom to a Phorm free ISP. I also think its not impossible that 5,000,000 inPhormed customers could move once public opinion and knowledge is widespread (Lets face it it's not very difficult to do). And you are not taking not taking into account any money paid out by ISP's due to copyright issues, or court cases, maybe because hackers have messed around with the WebWise cookies to their advantage and seriously affected a large organisation in some way. (The system is then deemed then not as secure as was stated).

There are many issues that could affect the financial viability. As I have said before, once trust is gone, it's usually gone forever. Members of an ISP who move I don't think will come back. I take on-board you points but I think there are many other unforeseen costs to the Phorm infected ISP that are only beginning to be imagined even now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:notopic:
Julian, I think big screens in city centres are definitely off topic for this thread, and would be best dealt with in a separate thread if you and others want to pursue it. I just can't see how discussing that, is going to help us move forward on the topic of Phorm/Webwise/targetted behavioural advertising/deep packet inspection/interception of internet traffic.
That's just my personal opinion. No personal criticism intended.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you've taken my posts the wrong way.

I was only trying to advise non-BT/VM/CPW customers that they need to get involved now before it's too late and all ISPs start using DPI to boost their income.

I'm not sure that saying that the ISPs will lose money is realistic - if it is then why are we bothering fighting them when they will either srop DPI or go bust? What I do know is that we have to fight Phorm and any other similar system based on what we know - it's intrusive, unregulated and just around the corner.

We don't want to send the wrong message to forum vistors - this system will be online this year unless we actively fight it right now. Even if Phorm's business model is flawed it still leaves the door wide open for other companies with equally despicable pieces of spyware to come along until one has the PR or presentation to make it financially viable.

We can't leave this open - we need to push and push until we get legislation that will prevent any such system from ever being used by ISPs. Combatting Phorm and the three big ISPs is only a battle - there's a whole war needs fighting if we don't want to see these systems or have this same struggle every six months from now on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Peter, I was not trying to say they would all lose money directly, but with the inPhormed publicity that Phorm would love people to avoid, any gains may not outweigh the bad press and risks involved.

Businesses like to have good costings. Because of the nature of WebWise, copyright issues and the inherent risk to privacy outlined in many references to academic papers and similar within this thread and others, there may well be a lot of unknown negative costings to consider for an ISP thinking of adopting WebWise (or similar). Some of these issues are still being discovered. This apart from any current legality issues.

<edit>
There are two fights as I see it. Public awareness and political awareness. Both are important IMHO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well for one when Ebay changed their t&c to allow them profile and not just on their system but outside and asking users to opt out in stead of in, I left and told them why and took 6 emails back and forth for them to get the message to del my A/C, complaining i was not using my email addy i used to open a A/C lot of fun i say, but i wont have it, they make enough money already just pigging GREED, same will happen to my a/c with my isp..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another possible contact to approach regarding Phorm and ISP level interception - the Freedom Association

A spokesman for the FA is quoted in this article but the organiation itself doesn't seem to be involved as yet judging by a search of their website.

You may want to look at this Wiki entry for the FA to see who is involved with the organisation as it includes a number of ploiticians and members of the House of Lords.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another technological method solution may be to use a rc4 randomizing synchronized driver, clocked between endpoints.

This would make mirroring & keyword searches much harder without the overhead of full encryption.
(Another Envelope).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think a few ISPs will remain opposed to exploiting their customers in this way. There is clearly a market for a Phorm free ISP, and they may well be able to charge a premium for providing it above and beyond any income they could hope to derive from phorming.

The trouble is, if Phorm is deemed a success and the Phorm Three all go ahead, then there will be much less competition for the custom of those of us who object to phorming and probably no large non-phorming ISPs, so we can expect to pay a fair bit more.

Worse still the ISP market in the UK is consolidating, an ISP that is vehermently anti-phorm today, could be bought out by a phorming ISP tomorrow, so no-one is really safe from phorming until the practice is outlawed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if this is of use but this site was mentioned over on Lifehacker, http://url-info.appspot.com/

You can use it to get a bit more info about various sites, there's a mention of a PIA on the Phorm site. The more techy amongst us may know this info already, but I thought i'd post in case it could be useful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If BT et al use any income from Phorm to drop their montly fees then the other ISPs will either sign-up or go bust.

BT could even drop their prices for a few months as a special offer to lure more people into 18 month contracts just to get the maximum number of punters using Phorm. I call this the Tesco effect because that company is notorious for dropping prices on any item or range that is sold locally by any other shop - you open a small record shop and they put you out of business by selling chart CDs at below cost. They make the money back in the long term by creating a monopoly.

All of the normal rules of supply and demand go out of the window when you deal with a company as big as BT and they are not going to worry too much about fighting a couple of small ISPs for business when they know that they have such vast resources behind them.

Webwise will be advertised in such a way that the average person has no idea of the privacy inmplications and they'll be lead to believe that all internet use is risky and that this is no big deal. That's the track that Phorm have gone down and BT are Phorm's faithful dog.

You pay less than £1 a day for internet usage and after you take the overheads from that I doubt if the ISPs make more than a few pounds per year per houshold. Compared with the overhead free income offered by Phorm then losing even a few million customers to the smaller ISPs - most of whom pay BT for the lines and bandwidth anyway - is not going to worry them too much. It would be a different matter if those people were to migrate to Virgin or Carphone Warehouse but that's not going to happen and BT will remain way up at the top of the ISP tree.

Bear in mind that BT is also the first choice ISP for so many non-technically minded people who still think of BT as being a public organisation and you'll have to go a long way before you can make even a tiny dent in their profits and unless ISP level DPI interception is completely outlawed or tightly controlled then we are going to be spid on by all ISPs because market forces will be such that an "ethical" ISP will not exist to migrate to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hang on I thought we were going to get this stopped not talk damage limitation, or am I the only one wanting this stopped before it rolls out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you really see that happening?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats the only reason I'm here I have fought many campaigns at govt level and would not have bothered if I didn't believe in winning

Ut prosim vince mallum bono

To overcome evil with good ,my old school Badge.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're not the only one!!
It must be stopped!!

But in case DPI mirroring is contemplated in the future, it is a wise precaution to attempt to provide technological means to make such a system unworkable!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Although I doubt that BT would pass on any 'profits' made via the Phorm WebWise system it is this reason why everybody should take on-board the possibility that if we bury our heads in the sand and do nothing this could be our worst nightmare. Destruction of the web as we know it!

We must all complain and complain loudly. Don't leave it to somebody else. As shown earlier this week on this board, apart from all the privacy and interception issues do we want WebWise or None WebWise
Alternatively.
As illustrated in post #12346
Network Neutrality or Network Parasite Neutrality

Which horrifyingly leads to The end result

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Company as big as BT that got stopped in its tracks by one astute person asking difficult questions well done Dephormation pete for showing us the way to the Achilles heel,we just have to keep on the pressure I have seen no factual proof to support Phorm Webwise for months but our challenge must grow .I have said before how hypothesising does no good what so ever except to divert peoples efforts . ask the questions ,demand the answers, and above all speak with one voice, do we want Phorm ,do we ...............

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is some strange activity around on invite only forums and one linking into ISPreview with a poll I had asking about the BT planned page asking for informed consent what people thought it meant if BT popped it up on thjeir screen.. Mark.J did some updatinjg and seemed to allow unregistered to vote hence pro phorm pr spoilt the poll.
Below copy of the post on ISPr.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a thought it might be silly - but - If Phorm is rolled out and I start browsing away and thereby produce a profile linked to MY UID then surely the profile is MY DATA and I am entitled to know what data is held on me.
It matters not that Phorm/ISP says it cannot know who I am, it is MY UID against which is MY PROFILE containing MY DATA. I should be able to check it for accuracy, be able to contest it if need be etc.
Any thoughts or should I have an early night?

Chris

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hadn't noticed anyone doing that.

Were you referring to a particular post or discussion?

It also depends on what you mean by "...getting this stopped" - do you mean Phorm, the current "arrangements" with BT/VM/CW or do you mean interception of data by ISPs or anyone else without a warrant?

There are many levels to this discussion and the Phorm tie-in is only part of them. If we fight and win against Phorm as a company the problem of DPI and spying by ISPs will remain and will resurface like a dose of herpes.

Far better to address the issues behind the headlines than to become too focussed on Phorm. They are a piddling little spyware company and seeing them off is not enough to protect anyone's privacy in the medium to long term. I don't want to have to go through all of this again and I don't think that people should have to spend the next five years running tracerts and looking at the fine-print of every contract in order to use what is basically a delivery service.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely it cannot be much of a surprise that internet security and management forums may be "invite only" ? I am a member of one myself and you'd hardly want security discussed in public.

Why do you believe this is ?