Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well - why not post your shopping list here, and I'm sure the rest of us can fill your (non disposable) carrier bag with urls and pdf files?
After all that's what we're here for.
And if you are REphorming your MP it is worth the effort. :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"What is Roman's connection with Stratis?"

Roman Gaufman is(was) a covert 121Media/Phorm operator who was instructed to insert various pieces of spying apparatus into the BT network. We suspect (and this has now been confirmed by anonymous BT employees [and Ex-BT]) due to the secretive nature of the spying-on-customers project only a handful of BT employees at the management and technical levels knew about this malicious surveillance scheme.

Stratis Scleparis (was) the CTO of BT Retail and is responsible for the overseeing of technical development and continued operations of the BT network, and any significant changes or additions to the BT Retail network are his responsibility as CTO. Stratis Scleparis very close secretive involvment with 121Media/Phorm is now obvious, evident by his sideways shift from CTO for BT Retail to CTO of Phorm long before the WebLies system became public. This could be seen as a career opportunity for making money, for the smooth transition and eventual wholesale insertion of the Phorm Intra-ISP 'webwise' spying network and inline Rootkits.

Given the personal importance of the spying-on-customers project to Stratis Scleparis and given the very secretive covert nature of the trials and insertion of equipment without the knowledge of senior BT engineers (as confirmed by anonymous BT technical staff) we can draw the conclusion that Stratis Scleparis and Roman Gaufman were infact in close personal contact for the duration of the installation and running of the covert trials. (see leaked BT whistleblower documents regarding installation/performance/operation of the spying network to draw further conclusions regarding Stratis Scleparis and Roman Gaufman close personal relationship).


I'll add more information to the badphorm.co.uk site as a lookup resource, which can be edited and kept current.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?7629

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BERR have an outfit called the "Companies Investigation Branch" who are supposed to investigate allegations of serious corporate misconduct.

But I haven't seen anything to indicate they are investigating BT. Sadly.

"Companies Investigation Branch (CIB) is part of the regulatory arm of the Department for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (BERR). Prior to the creation of BERR, it was part of the Department of Trade & Industry.

Although CIB is located within the Insolvency Service, an Executive Agency of BERR, it is not limited to companies that have become insolvent. In fact, most of its investigations are into companies that are actively trading. Please see our “Frequently Asked Questions� for details of what we can and cannot investigate."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Start him off with this flyer:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_MP.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that itmanagement earthweb article was fascinating - sort of blows a hole out of Kent Ertugruls arguments about how the public will welcome Webwise/Phorm, and digs an even deeper hole under BT's "Premium Browsing:Research Findings" (the survey that dare not speak its name) and their claims that BT customers really want Phorm/Webwise.

It would be a good article to copy to disk, and quote from/refer to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you or does anyone here actually know what's in the Premium Browsing:Research Findings?

Also re: hackeron don't you think he may just be some guy caught up in all this? He was only doing his job, after all. I don't think it's fair to drag people into this unless they have entered the debate themselves.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sad to say my MP is labour so presume the inability to research is a fault within Labour MPs. I will rise to the challenge to rephorm him back to a human being with understanding of morals, privacy and acceptable invaision plus unacceptable invaison of privacy...

Printed of the pdf to go in my next letter was thinking of getting ther ICO stuff but sadly a reformat lost me my emails from Watkin.. :(:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No - I don't know - I'm just guessing - the name pops up in the leaked BT trials document and I have just been floating it every now and then in the hope that a copy might drift out of a BT office window.

---------- Post added at 19:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

If it is the FOI stuff here are the links
http://dephormation.org.uk/?page=12

If it is the cryptome stuff
http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I interpret that differently. He is trying to say that if you write a postcard you know people can read it. Using the internet these days is like sending a postcard as far as privacy goes.
To look at a postcard requires being in the right place in the chain of delivery. The hotel front desk (the user terminal in a computer analagy), the postman that collects it (the host ISP), those who sort it on route (the Internet backbone providers), the postman that delivers it (recipient ISP). It does not require skill it requires being in the network.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

did they cover that in yes minister how to do the survey to get the results you want and not what the poeple want?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But what you expect and what it actually is are two different things, already, even before the most intrusive of inspection systems is put into place.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So would you share Lord West's view, or do you mean that we should behave as though Internet communications are no more secure than sending a postcard?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With permission from the guy who posted this on BT Beta and apologies if it has surfaced here before - there is a Wikipedia article here about the introduction of exchange telephone equipment which was introduced to solve the problem of telephone operators listening in to conversations (Father Ted comes to mind!).

The irony is that we now have some more equipment introduced into the heart of the modern equivalent - the internet exchange (RAS?) designed to reverse the effects of that original invention - to enable a man in the middle once again to intercept and monitor communications.

Might be an example worth using to REphorm the UNinphormed and DEphormed.

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

I think Baroness Miller and Lord Northesk have been doing quite a good job in that direction, after taking the trouble to get herself REphormed and balance the Phorm PR with information from the people at the AGM demo.

---------- Post added at 19:53 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Just about EVERYTHING in politics is covered in Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister. I re-read them every two or three years just to stay alert!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its easy to burgle a house (allegedly).

But, never the less, you have a right to expect your house won't be burgled. The law says people who burgle houses are criminals.

Its easy for Post Office staff to intercept your mail. But it is criminal to do so.

Likewise people who illegally intercept electronic communications are criminals.

Just because it would be easy for an ISP to intercept your communications, doesn't make it any less criminal.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as far as the internet is concerned about id and personal stuff, that`s you the user if you want to fill in stuff on web sites with full consent from the user, places like face book my space and others but that is not the same as intercepting is it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even a postcard should be treated with respect by the postal service. Viewing the picture or the saucey joke on the front is very different fron reading the writing on the reverse.

Sherlock Holmes always said that he saw the same things as Watson - it was the act of observing rather than just seeing and the way that he used what he observed that was different.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Of course Mr Darling clearly doesn't understand the issues either if he thinks ICO are giving recomendations based on RIPA.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed Mr Hanff... Who is actually responsible for the enforcement of RIPA and who is responsible for prosecutions is unclear even today (unless I missed something? Apart from an acceptance by the London Police of your case file?)

According to RIPA itself, the one thing we do know is that the Interception of Communications Commissioner is responsible for ensuring that the effectiveness of the Act is monitored and reported on to the Government. And according to the ICC man's office (office of Sir Paul Kennedy I think it is), the people responsible for investigating alleged breeches of the Act are the Police and as regards prosecuting that's the role of the Crown Prosecution Service.

Of course, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office, Lord West of Spithead is not so clear. No. He answered the Earl of Northesk's question a little ambiguously...:

EoN: "Which law enforcement agency, Department or other statutory body has responsibility for investigating and prosecuting possible criminal breaches of ... the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000?" [from HO HL3267]

LWoS: "Investigation of breaches of RIPA would be investigated by the police or other relevant law enforcement agency; any subsequent prosecution would be taken forward by the CPS or other relevant prosecuting agency."


It's that use of "other relevant enforcement/prosecuting agency" which helps ensure that there is wriggle room left to mess around in! It keeps the water muddy so no one can quite see through - a masterly answer which Sir Humphrey Applebee would have been proud of!!

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It makes sense once you realise that RIPA was never intended for corporate cases. The armed forces and some areas of the public services are allowed to run their own cases outside of the usual courts and away from the police and the CPS.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They sure did and you can read in it this very thread, actually; I posted the whole thing a while back.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post10063.html

Enjoy!

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes Minister... on the topic of Big Brother...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJv3U9RlWQ

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I expect he's a bit busy right now..;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi guys. Made it to Italy. :)

Have you guys seen this yet?:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...lating_to_line

Originally posted on BadPhorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Odd... "Considering a qualified exemption/s and the Public Interest Test."?

So the Force Solicitor may have issued a legal opinion on the actions by BT and Phorm whilst conducting the 'Phorm Trials' in 2006 and 2007, but what that opinion actually is might not be shared because to do so might not be in the public interest?

So if the Force Solicitor thought it was legal what might that cause in terms of issues against the public interest? Answers on a postcard (or maybe you should seal your answers in an envelope for privacy reasons)

Or, what if the solicitor said it was illegal as per the papers by our eminent colleagues in this campaign? How would disclosing that under FOI be against the public interest? (Other than showing that the police may have ignored something which their force solicitor said could be against the law?)

Looking forward to seeing the answers...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also, Kent and Phorm make the summer issue of Focus magazine (bought at airport). That's BBC Focus magazine issue #192:

For and Against:

Is using data mining to target ads a step too far?

No
Kent Ertugrul
Ceo, Phorm (data mining firm that aims to 'deliver the right ads to the right people')

THere are several problems with the web today. It doesn't adequately address people's privacy concerns and there's no obvious way to pay for a better, faster browsing experience. In addition, only a handful of internet publishers make any money online and it's hard for offline publishers to move online successfully.

Phorm's technology helps address those needs. It improves customer protection against fraudulent internet sites and reduces the number of irrelevant ads people see -- all without storing any personal information, making it simply impossible to reverse engineer the anonymisation process. Users benefit because the adds will be far more relevant to them. Also, because of its greater accuracyt, more money overall will be spent on internet advertising, and even small websites can now get a much larget slice of the £2.8 billion spent on internet advertising last year. That will allow greater investment in the content and services that people enjoy today - mostly for free. Our technology is a groundbreaking step forward in online privacy, and has the potential to radically improve the internet.



Yes
Becky Hogge
Executive Director, Open Rights Group

We are used to websites setting cookies so they can track our behaviour, but what the company Phorm proposes is to track your online activity not just at the browsing level, but at hte network level, by tracking the activities associated with your internet connection. If you think about how much of life people now conduct on the internet - everything from banking to private email, to online support groups for health conditions - a lot of that material is deeply private.
Phorm has been careful to explain some of the steps it is taking to exclude private material like email, but these aren't going to exclude everything. In the end, why would consumers consent to risk their privacy in this manner? What are they getting in return? It's like letting the Royal Mail open all your letters just so it can send you a better class of junk mail.
Until there is a qualified regulator, we simply have to trust that the software does what it says it does.

---------- Post added at 22:07 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

You can send in letters to:

focus -at- bbcmagazinesbristol -dot- com

Yes, that's magazineS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So they wrote to him on the 22nd July to tell him that they couldn't reply until the 19th July :shrug:

Here's the info explaining the Qualified Exemption and Public Interest Tests. I'll not comment on the reasons for the police taking this line but it is worth pointing out the factors that are taken into account in the Test.

Based on guidance information and other publications, relevant factors that should be considered by an Institution include: -

* the general public interest in accessible information;
* would disclosure contribute to the administration of justice or enforcement of law?;
* would disclosure inform the public of any danger to public health or safety?;
* would disclosure contribute to a debate of importance?; and
* would disclosure prejudice a person's privacy rights?

Factors which should NOT be taken into account by an Institution include: -

* the possible embarrassment of Institutions or other officials;
* the possible loss of confidence in Institutions or public authority;
* the seniority of persons involved; and
* the risk of an applicant misinterpreting the information.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>So they wrote to him on the 22nd July to tell him that they couldn't reply until the 19th July

Sorry, a post on BadPhorm later explains that that's a typo: it's meant to say Aug 19th.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Er yes there is Kent... Provide services customers want and will pay for.

As I type that, I want to do that expression Kent did in the BBC Click video when he pretended to be confused and shocked by something Alexander said.

D'oh! So obvious really. So obvious but yet so unclear to Kent who, bless, cannot understand why consumers would not want his Phorm Webwise 'service'. Awwww.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Internet communication should be as secure as sending a letter. The packet headers (or envelope) are read to deliver the letter. Already DPI is occuring to monitor the type of traffic, this means the envelope is being opened making the envelope more akin to an unsealed letter with the flap tucked in.

I don't share Lord Wests view, I feel Internet communications are no more secure than sending a postcard, then again I know that everything I do on the internet and email connections I am predominantly in front of is subject to retention and review anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, I didn't see that warning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was about to wade into each point you made but I think I'll do the same, no comment (for now - until about August 19th anyway)

:)

Good night all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7520598.stm

Not greatly related to Phorm but of course a good example of how power without checks and balances can corrupt and be misused. While Phorm now say of course we won't look at... Over time...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said, "Power does not corrupt men; fools, however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power"

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:14 ----------

It was quite a Kent'ish moment. Such a natural actor... Not!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Decided it is time for another FoI request.
We have heard too many times that BT 'sought legal advice'. Its time it was made public.
What are the chances of the information being released?

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...#outgoing-1864

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you think the situation being investigated by the Police courtesy of Alex might explain it?

---------- Post added at 08:05 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------

It's worth pointing out to the non technical that the IP packets that everyone refers to has two sections.
1. IP Header
2. Payload

The IP header contains information to allow the packet to traverse the internet. Source IP, Destination IP, protocol type etc.

You should note that the information in this header cannot be used for traffic shaping of http traffic and the like as it would only mention the protocol 'tcp'.

You have to process this packet to 'strip off the outer layer' thus revealing the payload to consist of the following (let's continue with the http example)..

1. TCP Header
2. Payload

The TCP header contains other information for the processing computer so it knows what to do with it and how the packet fits in with other packets. Key fields in this header are the source and destination ports.

Most people will know by now that http runs on tcp/80, and this is all the information you really need to shape this traffic. You could distinguish between ftp, http and bit-torrent traffic at this level assuming everyone is using the standard ports for such protocols.

What DPI does is to look into the payload section which contains information for the application that is listening on the mentioned port, in this case port 80. For the sake of simplicity this is where your personal information is kept and you could also analyse the payload to see if you really are looking at http traffic or if you have disguised a bit-torrent stream on port 80.

My point is, it is nothing like a postcard apart from the fact that the packet isn't encrypted. (With encrypted traffic you would typically only see the IP header information so it can get where it's going).

It is very much like an envelope within an envelope within an envelope.

Anyone wishing to understand further is encouraged to google 'osi 7 layer model' - you should be able to find some general overviews. Even the wiki pages might be understandable :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have no idea if this is relevant or not as it is too technical for me - but as a BT customer I now find that the ThinkBroadband speed test on default settings does not give me an accurate reading - generally very very low- I have to rerun it using the port 80 alternative to get a proper result.

And the BT official speedtester has a weird Firefox related fault (for some people, including me, who get a java socket error in the results and the test hangs) that can be overcome by using either IE7 (with same Java) or using our Firefox, putting in the IP address, instead of the url.

These are the sort of problems that BT "investigate" but never seem to be able to solve nowadays.

Might this be in any way connected ? (quite happy to be totally wrong here - please educate me)

---------- Post added at 08:19 ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 ----------

Not sure there is a lot of point as BT being a commercial company and not a public body, won't be required to disclose commercial legal advice. AFAIK

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

catching up as have been very busy lately

phorms profiler is supposed to strip the phorm related data back out of the cookie on the fly when a website requests it, but if a web site switches from port 80 to another port 443(ssl) for instance that information will not be stripped and will then be visible to the website

so the cookie can leak you UID
peter

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 ----------

still catching up.

on thing you miss, the data is available to the system admins in the form of the diagnostic logs, which we are told are kept for upto 14 days but not told what happens after that

peter

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

not sure if below is relevant

***************
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, the Home Office provides guidance about lawful interception conducted under warrant for law-enforcement purposes. This is separate from advice provided by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform on the relevant business facing legislation. ISPs may, with the consent of the consumer, use information about consumers’ internet use for the provision of value-added services. The Information Commissioner provides information to the public on privacy issues.
***************


my bold / UL so is this say that the HO should only give advice regarding interception under warrant? if so does that mean that phorm spoke to the wrong dept and got duff info?

and that DBERR are the ones they should be checking with and so should we? anyone done an FoI request to DBERR?

note the important point "provision of value add service" AKA anti phishing

could it not be argued that to be a value add service it would need to be a service users required not duplicate one they already have? if this were so then webwise would lose its immunity from perc as it would no longer be a value add service?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What you are doing here is bypassing the DNS lookup phase (udp/53).

DNS has a default timeout of 2 seconds, and since the traffic is udp (connectionless) if the packet is 'lost' along the way there is no automatic re-submission.

If the DNS is busy (this takes a lot but it depends on which dns servers you have configured) you can easily wait up to 6 seconds for a dns response (an eternity!) or even get a page not found error in your browser (which tells you to refresh which effectively resubmits the dns request).

This has been a public service announcement by the geek-squad :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think this was mentioned. If they keep any logs that contain what is deemed communication data then would likely be an interception under RIPA (if it's stored it can be accessed by someone). However, they may well change what is logged for the roll out and we don't know what was logged during the trials either. If they logged IP addresses, I don't think that is communication data, but traffic data, so may not fall fowl of RIPA. It would however come under DPA, as it is PII.

Looking at the bigger picture -

There are many potential legal problems with what phorm is trying to do. Whilst it may be possible to work within the bounds of the law, it certainly isn't easy. The trials seem to fall well short of the requirements for legality. (no consent from anyone at all, code injection, etc.) However a lot of the evidence relating to the trials has probably conveniently disappeared now. All that we are left with is the claims of phorm and BT. The same claims that got them the all clear from the legal advice they sought.

I imagine an exchange something like this:

"We don't store anything and We don't use any PII"
"Well it should be legal then"

Of course, they do store various bits of data, and they do process PII, and they do copy copyrighted content. All of which puts the legality into serious doubt.

I know some of you don't care about the legality or not - "it simply must be stopped". To which I say this: If it is found to be illegal by a court, then it will be stopped - dead. :)

P.S. (Going off on a tangent slightly) I'm surprised that any lawyer would give a simple statement that something was legal. It'd leave them too vulnerable. Instead I'd expect something along the lines of "Based on the information available to me at this time, I believe that the proposal in its current form is unlikely to be in breach of <specific act of parliament>"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In phorm's case won't this 'other data' consist of keywords that originally were 'part of the communication' ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The request is to disclose the information in the posession of the ICO
(assuming BT has provided it as requested by the ICO).

I would consider it to be in the public interest to disclose. Failure to disclose (by the ICO) could cause people to assume the advice was flawed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I could offer my opinion of weather that counts as communication data, but this really is something that a court must decide.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are no current FoI requests regarding BT/Phorm lodged with BERR
I know that BERR, along with the ICO, have been in discussions with BT over the webwise technology.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/berr

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Conversely if the Home Office remit is providing guidance about lawful interception conducted under warrant for law-enforcement purposes... separate from... business facing legislation...

Why did they spend over 6 months advising BT/Phorm?

I haven't done an FoI to BERR, but I understand the HoL have some questions pending, which may reveal more.

An FoI request to BERR would be a good idea, usual sort of questions;

• When were BERR first contacted by BT/Phorm to discuss internet advertising?
• What correspondence has been exchanged concerning internet advertising between BERR and BT/Phorm since 2006?
• When have BERR met with BT/Phorm to discuss internet advertising, what were the minutes and agenda of those meetings?
• When were BERR first made aware of the trials of Phorm systems in 2006/2007?
• What evidence have BERR sought concerning the secret trials in 2006/7?
• When were Shriti Vadera, Tom McNulty, Jacqui Smith first advised that covert trails of Phorm/121Media systems had been conducted in 2006/7?
• Have the Insolvency Service Companies Investigation Branch opened an investigation into the secret trials in 2006/7?
• What evidence have the CIB sought concerning the secret trials in 2006/7?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just ran a speed test from here and got the following results

Download speed 209 Kbps (socket test)
Upload speed 185 Kbps (socket test)
Quality of service 5 %
Maximum pause 1348 ms
Round trip time 8 ms

proves what i thought a poor service

wonder if the quality of service has anything to do with the 2 additional hops BT put in my route this last week in prep( i assume) for PHORM / BT Webwise

peter

---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

why have BT have put so many extra hops in my route to the net? 18 hops to get to google, used to be 14 a few months ago and only 12 on my ZEN line.

as you can see below i start in the 217.47.66 subnet, up to 217.41.159 subnet, then upto 217.41.171 subnet, turn round then all the way back???

i fail to see the logic of that route? and think it looks on face value as poor network design, and before you say off topic the only reason i can see for this is that they are preparing to put the phorm / BT WebWise kit on the 217.41.171.x subnet and having to route my traffic halfway round the country to get to it. if that is the case there is not way that route when combined with the 307 redirect delays will not affect the performance of my broadband when browsing, i am alreeady seeming delays

or is BT Retail already trialing phorm / BT Webwise covertly again??

and as hop 2 says kingston5.broadband.bt.net i assume i am on the kingston RAS and will be affected by the trial !!!!

please note BT and PHORM we are still watching you watching us watching you, with great interest when you make network changes ;)

Peter

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [216.239.59.147]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 77 ms 99 ms 99 ms api.home [192.168.X.X]
2 16 ms 17 ms 17 ms esr11.kingston5.broadband.bt.net [217.47.66.142]
3 18 ms 16 ms 17 ms 217.47.66.13
4 17 ms 18 ms 17 ms 217.47.159.170
5 16 ms 17 ms 18 ms 217.41.217.9
6 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms 217.41.171.66
7 18 ms 18 ms 16 ms 217.41.171.134
8 16 ms 17 ms 17 ms 217.41.217.38
9 18 ms 18 ms 16 ms 217.47.66.99
10 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms core1-pos3-0.kingston.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.40.106]
11 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms core1-pos0-7-0-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.109]
12 19 ms 18 ms 18 ms core1-pos6-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.198]
13 19 ms 18 ms 18 ms 195.99.125.110
14 19 ms 20 ms 19 ms 209.85.255.175
15 33 ms 33 ms 34 ms 209.85.250.216
16 32 ms 32 ms 30 ms 66.249.95.169
17 34 ms 35 ms 34 ms 216.239.49.126
18 31 ms 31 ms 31 ms gv-in-f147.google.com [216.239.59.147]

Trace complete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well for i had 19 hops last week and this week it`s 18 but sadly my speed has dropped from 7.6 to 6.2 in the same time line, yes I am that close to the exchange and would expect after years of 7.6 it I would still get that but nope.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mine seems totaly different!

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.102.9.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.*.*
2 11 ms 9 ms 28 ms 10.247.120.1
3 7 ms 7 ms 9 ms lutn-t2cam1-a-v128.network.virginmedia.net [80.4.119.181]
4 8 ms 7 ms 45 ms lutn-t3core-1a-ge-011-0.network.virginmedia.net[62.252.64.85]
5 9 ms 7 ms 11 ms pop-bb-a-so-220-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.175.149]
6 8 ms 30 ms 9 ms pop-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.174.230]
7 12 ms 18 ms 27 ms tele-ic-2-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.184.6]
8 13 ms 15 ms 8 ms 212.250.14.138
9 10 ms 9 ms 30 ms 209.85.255.175
10 23 ms 25 ms 19 ms 209.85.251.190
11 23 ms 25 ms 23 ms 64.233.174.187
12 29 ms 49 ms 56 ms 64.233.174.18
13 32 ms 21 ms 22 ms lm-in-f104.google.com [66.102.9.104]

Trace complete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

your does not do a round trip to visit a friend to tell them where you are going and what you are doing (phorm ) who is not in yet (we assume), then come back before going where it should, as VM do not seem to be playing these games yet

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

1 92 ms 99 ms 99 ms xxxxxx xxxxxx 192.168.x.xxx]
2 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms esr5.sheffield3.broadband.bt.net [217.47.73.144]

3 23 ms 23 ms 22 ms 217.47.73.13
4 25 ms 24 ms 23 ms 217.47.110.6
5 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 217.41.176.25
6 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 217.41.176.146
7 23 ms 24 ms 23 ms 217.41.176.50
8 23 ms 22 ms 23 ms 217.47.73.50
9 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 217.32.171.241
10 26 ms 25 ms 25 ms core1-pos8-0.birmingham.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.204.
146]
11 32 ms 30 ms 31 ms core1-pos0-6-4-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.204.
58]
12 30 ms 29 ms 29 ms core1-pos6-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.1
98]
13 29 ms 29 ms 30 ms 194.74.65.38
14 29 ms 30 ms 30 ms 209.85.255.175
15 44 ms 45 ms 45 ms 209.85.250.216
16 40 ms 41 ms 43 ms 72.14.232.237
17 42 ms 52 ms 42 ms 64.233.174.18
18 42 ms 39 ms 40 ms lm-in-f104.google.com [66.102.9.104]

Trace complete.
i have posted other way back
like the way i go up north then south past where i started from

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps because you are going to a different IP address?

Also, when looking at these traceroutes bear in mind that when your packet traverses a (layer 2) switched network (MPLS/Frame Relay) etc. that you won't see a 'hop' as these are only registered at layer 3(IP).

It's possible to head into an mpls node in London and Pop out in San Francisco with it looking like 1 hop (although it's probably closer to 20)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have had the same happen to me full circle then off to google

1 40 ms 99 ms 99 ms api.home [192.168.xxx.xxx]
2 30 ms 34 ms 30 ms esr6.birmingham5.broadband.bt.net [217
]
3 48 ms 30 ms 47 ms 217.32.86.30
4 31 ms 31 ms 32 ms 217.41.221.174
5 29 ms 30 ms 30 ms 217.41.216.13
6 30 ms 29 ms 31 ms 217.41.172.65
7 33 ms 30 ms 32 ms 217.41.172.138
8 31 ms 31 ms 30 ms 217.41.216.34
9 34 ms 29 ms 29 ms 217.32.86.42
10 31 ms 36 ms 34 ms core1-pos9-5.birmingham.ukcore.bt.net
0.49]
11 34 ms 33 ms 32 ms core1-pos0-6-4-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net
58]
12 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms core1-pos6-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [1
98]
13 34 ms 34 ms 35 ms 194.74.65.38
14 33 ms 32 ms 34 ms 209.85.255.175
15 103 ms 101 ms 105 ms 72.14.236.216
16 118 ms 150 ms 118 ms 66.249.94.235
17 122 ms 121 ms * 209.85.248.221
18 126 ms 147 ms 128 ms 72.14.232.74
19 127 ms 130 ms 138 ms 72.14.232.70
20 133 ms 129 ms 130 ms py-in-f99.google.com [64.233.167.99]

Hop #11 alternates from Ilford to Ealing

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Okay. good point and agreed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I completed two tracerts one using google.com and the second the IP addres you had .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly the same here - up the hill from 217.32.99.186 on hop 2 and down again back to 217.32.99.50 on hop 9 having spent hops 3-8 skipping around the hill enjoying the rock phormations.

Tracing route to google.com [64.233.187.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 44 ms 101 ms 97 ms api.home [192.***.*.***]
2 49 ms 48 ms 47 ms 217.32.99.186
3 48 ms 268 ms 84 ms 213.123.109.161
4 48 ms 50 ms 48 ms 213.123.109.6
5 49 ms 48 ms 47 ms 217.41.169.17
6 51 ms 48 ms 48 ms 217.41.169.66
7 48 ms 48 ms 49 ms 217.41.169.118
8 49 ms 48 ms 54 ms 217.41.169.54
9 49 ms 49 ms 47 ms 217.32.99.50
10 47 ms 47 ms 47 ms core1-pos9-2.reading.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.0.245]
11 50 ms 52 ms 49 ms core1-pos0-8-0-3.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.185]
12 53 ms 49 ms 50 ms core1-pos10-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.254]
13 51 ms 50 ms 50 ms 195.99.125.110
14 50 ms 55 ms 51 ms 209.85.252.76
15 121 ms 122 ms 122 ms 64.233.175.213
16 134 ms 134 ms 132 ms 209.85.248.216
17 148 ms 152 ms 149 ms 216.239.48.69
18 148 ms 152 ms 152 ms 216.239.47.1
19 152 ms 162 ms 161 ms 216.239.43.249
20 148 ms 149 ms 148 ms jc-in-f99.google.com [64.233.187.99]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It looks like only BT gets hopped around. I have similar hops from the DNS router out to google for the 216 address.
Has anyone checked the internal BT hops from mid-June when there were also multiple hops? - I thought that was less than the current 7 hops?

How does one check for a traceroute on port 443 - i.e. to nodpi.org?

It would be really interesting to be able to see if port 443 traffic has the same 7 internal hops.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Under *nix you can use tcptraceroute:

http://michael.toren.net/code/tcptraceroute/

tcptraceroute nodpi.org 443

I beleive there is something similar available for windows.

Edit - Windows Version Here:

http://tracetcp.sourceforge.net/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

R Jones I live in Reading as does my daughter we are both close to the main exchange She as you do goes via Reading but I go via Birmingham ........Idont understand!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When you consider RIPA, where both parties to the intercept have given permission for their communication to be intercepted, this is not an interception under RIPA.

See RIPA Chapter 10

"10.3 Section 3(l) of the Act authorises the interception of a
communication if both the person sending the communication and
the intended recipient(s) have consented to its interception, or where
the person conducting the interception has reasonable grounds for
believing that all parties have consented to the interception."

Which is where the thinking re the HO document and whether or not interception is occurring where users have opted in to receive adverts from sites that are displaying adverts.

From what BT have said (quoting Emma Sanderson) "Anyone who puts a webpage on the internet does so for the purpose of people making copies of it for the purpose of looking at it and assessing the information contained in it." so that covers the reasonable grounds clause, not.

Just noticed this on pg 36 of the RIPA document:
Chapter 9
CoMpLAINts
9.1 The Act establishes an independent Tribunal. This Tribunal will
be made up of senior members of the judiciary and the legal
profession and is independent of the Government. The Tribunal has
full powers to investigate and decide any case within its jurisdiction.
9.2 This code does not cover the exercise of the Tribunal’s functions.
Details of the relevant complaints procedure can be obtained from
the following address:
The Investigatory Powers Tribunal
PO Box 33220
London
SWIH 9ZQ
( 0207 273 4514

I am sure that somehow, rather than a FoI for RIPA, someone can put forward a complaint?

---------- Post added at 14:03 ---------- Previous post was at 13:58 ----------

The Mac does not understand tcptraceroute. Instead, the following works:

traceroute nodpi.org 443

(once I get to the hosting for nodpi, I just get bounced off the firewall)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

9.75...

I didn't think it would stay at just over a tenner for long. Kent may have to raid his ISA account again soon (or whatever it is that he does to periodically shore up the share price).

Can somebody please remind me exactly what it is that Phorm sell / do to make enough money to pay their staff these days?

Atm are they just reliant on the interest from the CEO's building society account to keep the business afloat?


:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking at iii, LondonStockExchange, GoogleFinance... I can't see any trades/any volume displayed for today.
Seem to recall this happened once before, so not sure there is anything to read into it. But currrrrious.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

traceroute is not the same thing as tcptraceroute. It will be using 443 as the packet size, not a port number. You'll have to install tcptraceroute somehow. I'm not up on macs unfortunately so can't help you with that bit. If all else fails, you should be able to download it from that site (might need to compile form source). If you can get it working it could be a very useful investigative tool.

This may help Mac users:

http://www.qsyssoft.com/machaxor/?p=4

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Being close to the exchange does not mean that you are both on the same exchange. Where I live, there are 4 exchanges. The one I am on only has about 9k users, just enough for one set of 123 XXXX numbers, and is due to receive 21CN 2 or 3 years earlier than the main exchanges that have 20k plus customers each.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, according to emma, websites that display a legal notice as follows:
...imply consent to interception by BT/Phorm for commercial gain?

I think not!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In theory any company that uses and stores peoples PII could presumably get large sums of money illeagaly.But they would never stoop that low would they.:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Almost the lighter side of ISP histories:

Part 1: http://technocrat.net/d/2008/7/22/46334

Part 2: http://technocrat.net/d/2008/7/23/46405

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, they are trying to live off the interest. In 2007 they received 688,843 USD in interest. However, there advertising revenue for that year was zero so after all that expensive R&D they ended the year with a net loss of 32,153,223 USD!

At the end of the year they had under 17 millions USD in cash and various other smaller assets. Unless they've got funding recently, or cut their expenditure, they must be getting rather low on funds. :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are you taking into account $65M raised in March?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A typical Bt support response from India..

http://www.complain2.co.uk/pcsite/bt.html

I feel for the customer as the BT support worker didn't have a clue...


add this to BT's competance with Phorm, DBA, RIPA it is really sad day for British people...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That would come under "they've got funding recently". I wasn't aware of that. It confirms that they were getting low and needed a top up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wasn't that when Morgan and stanley invested into this diabolical idea...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.paidcontent.co.uk/entry/4...with-more-isps

From April...
"Phorm said it was funded by $5 million from Morgan Stanley Principal Investments in February 2007, a $30 million share placing in June 2007 and raised a further $65 million last month, boasting: “In these current times of uncertainty in the financial markets, the fact that we were able to raise significant funds is testament to the strength and potential of our business model.” It’s now got $16.6 million in the bank. "

So after raising $65M, they had $16M in the bank in April, if I read that correctly. Where did $84M go? And how much of that $16M is left now?

That same article says they burned $22.4 million cash in the previous year... At that burn rate they won't have much left by November.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34577959 some old ones

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Gather round boys and girls and let me tell you about MPs and their concern for data protection and privacy.

I have as many have been, in regular contact with my MP about Phorm albeit with limited sucess. So to my surprise there was a letter waiting from me when i got home last night.

Unable to contain my anticipation I opened to find a rather bland letter confirming that she has written to BERR on my behalf and has enclosed the reply from Shriti Vadera.

Not so bad a hear you musing but here is the kicker.

The letter from BERR did not reference me at all. In fact it was the photocopy of a response from BERR that my MP's office has recieved from a seperate complaint about Phorm. Bad enough and yet there was worse....

The response from BERR contained the full name, address and phone number of the other individual who had written to complain about Phorm.

It really makes me wonder if the majority of Parliament live in cloud cuckoo land and have no concept of data protection!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They sure do know how to spend money. Can't wait until September when we'll see their interim results. (Assuming they are still around then ;))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Paying PROs to patrol forums like this one is an expensive business, I imagine. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I assume you weren't referring to the mods ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking at the IP ranges people are seeing bouncing around, they are basically made up of 4 different ranges:

217.32.99.186
inetnum: 217.32.96.0 - 217.32.103.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB

217.41.176.17
inetnum: 217.41.168.0 - 217.41.176.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB

213.123.109.161
inetnum: 213.123.96.0 - 213.123.111.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB

217.47.73.13 - common to many traceroutes
inetnum: 217.47.30.0 - 217.47.153.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: RAS Boxes
country: GB

The following named routers, birmingham, ilford, etc - 194. ranges look like DNS routers

Here is a theory, techies welcome to tear it apart.

it looks like the 217.47 and 217.32 ranges are the reverse DNS for the broadband connection - can this be confirmed from the router settings? That is what picks up the data stream from your computer, before it is sent anywhere. What does not make sense is that the in and out IP addresses are different (that was commented about as a possible problem with the 2006 trial)

That leaves the 217.41 and 213.123 ranges sitting with question marks over them and the jury is still out on the 217.47 range.

Two questions:
What are the browser logs showing - in and out responses?
What happens if you block the 217.41 range at your router/firewall level?

3rd Question - any BT customers who are not seeing the bounces?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Of course you are reporting all that to the ICO aren't you? Report the DBERR and report the MP. Did neither of them spot that? Oh definitely - make a formal report and then follow it up for the enforcement response. At least it will get a correspondence going between BERR and ICO. if they don't say much back to you, then someone else can stick in an FOI response (in a few weeks once your complaint has run its course) and ask if the ICO have had cause to warn the BERR about DPA breaches.

Then when you have all that in your hands, (having anonymised any information provided by anyone else!!) go back to the BERR via your MP, and ask them both if they think DPA is important, in the light of their slackness, and start again with your question, on the basis that maybe now they appreciate the subject a little better and pay a little bit more attention to you than they did last time. I think they will be a little more focussed second time. These people hate being caught out.

The wheels of justice do grind slow - the trick is to keep turning them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Personally, I would call the other person, apologise for the inconvenience, aim them in the right direction, light the blue touch paper, retreat and watch the fireworks.
<edit>
The reason being, they have a right to know their privacy has been compromised.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which government department(s) is/are directly responsible for IT and communications as it relates to the general public?

It seems to me that there is no ministerial responsibility and that we are scatting about trying to find someone with knowledge and authority. Is it worth asking the known contacts at Westminster if establishing such a department is a possibility especially as we are now in the 21st century.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet another piece of information that states "exclusive agreements with UK internet service providers BT plc, TalkTalk and Virgin Media Inc, to implement Phorm's advertising platform".

Granted, the document is dated March 2008, and Virgin publicly announced that it had not agreed to deploy or adopt the system on May 1st. But the fact is this company is gaining funding on false claims.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget, whatever Virgin Media might be saying at the moment, no one forced them to put these words on their website (captured in April)

We are currently at the early stages of working to deliver the Webwise solution and will be writing to you nearer the time to advise when the solution will be ‘switched on’ providing more detail of what this will mean to you. Given the benefits of Webwise, we’re pleased to be offering you this service and making your web experience safer and more relevant.

Why has Virgin Media partnered with Phorm?
We are very keen to ensure our customers have a safer online experience, but without blocking access. In this respect Webwise allows us to alert customers that they may be attempting to visit a site known to be fraudulent. Additionally, by providing customers with more relevant advertising, they should be able to find products and services that are more interesting for them.

Brings back happy memories of asking questions... then being confined to Fergals 'Webwise' thread... getting no answers... Fergal and Alex not responding to anything for months...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reference this article:

The European Court of Human Rights has ordered the Finnish government to pay out €34,000 because it failed to protect a citizen's personal data. One data protection expert said that the case creates a vital link between data security and human rights.
http://www.out-law.com/page-9287

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After what Virgin Media has subsequently said regarding their relationship with Phorm according to reports over the last month or two, I think either Virgin Media or Phorm have been possibly somewhat economical with the truth.

If I was a self respecting ISP owner and considering all the outrage against Phorm by ISP customers, I would go out of my way to ensure anything quoted about my company's current relationship with Phorm, was correct, even if I was considering dealing with Phorm in the future.

Something smells fishy IMHO and has done so for quite some time. Virgin Media seem happy to leave hard evidence by Phorm about their relationship, open on the table.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VM are just sitting waiting for BT to win or lose to make their next move..

Do you feel lucky would you trust them in a sticky position?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes it is but the fact that I feel Lord West is trying to get out is that the envelope is already regularly opened and the content looked at, just now it will be opened for the purpose of sending the recipient a higher quality of junk mail, sorry advertising.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if posted already. ComputerWeekly has a pic of The Reps of The Campaign outside the BT AGM and story BT Pushes On With Webwise.

www.computerweekly.com/231510.htm

And page 5 of this week's edition in News Of The Week. I'd type more but doing this on my mobile not easy :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh how nice a timely they link tot he public meeting where 80/20 thinking organised it and promised the video up within mins. Phorm were so open and transparent they still sitting on the video..

Again selective news to make phorm look good kent could sell sand to the Arabs and get away with it. Bt are the fool that is soon to be parted from its money...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like The Financial Times and Guardian have seen the light.


From http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...3076075812.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's one for The Register, methinks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is this the first sighting we have of the FT turning it's back on OIX? I believe a different source is required for confirmation. Good find, Zwade.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see a known Phorm PR poster has the first comment. See
#2672 for the same name.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Evening All, just seen this -

"However, surely the bigger question is whether consumers want to be targeted in this way and whether it will be able to deliver advertising that is truly relevant."

And

"Consumers appear to be wary of this kind of targeting too. New Media Age published research last week stating that 65 per cent of those queried would leave their internet service provider if it introduced behavioural targeting."

From Retail Week -

http://www.retail-week.com/ChannelCo...ood_phorm.html

Dave.

Nebuad Rant! -

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/fea...le.php/3760401

Search for Phorm on ebay and it comes up as a "Sponsored Link" -


Phorm
Creating two revolutions: in online advertising and in privacy
www.phorm.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

New Niches, Pinker Pages, No More Subscribers (23 June 2008)

Quotes Grimshaw, MD of FT.com...

Advertising: Grimshaw said a downturn is unavoidable in this economy but: “Over the next three to five years, �there’s going to be this big flood of money coming out of traditional media on to the web so, regardless of how the advertising economy is doing, the web should be pretty buoyant through that period�.

Grimshaw said FT.com has had discussions to run ads from controversial behavioural ad targeter Phorm, describing it as “an interesting technology� though “there are clearly some privacy concerns around it that are legitimate to some extent� - so he’s watching and waiting before deciding to opt in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they should take note of the fact it is now has to be opt in and the customers are aware of it and will leave isp using it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see Tiscali are beginning legal proceedings against BT.

The BBC Web site is saying

"Tiscali has begun legal proceedings against BT after the telco sent letters to its customers hoping to persuade them to swap to BT's broadband service."

and then later on the quote:

"Some privacy experts have questioned how BT got hold of customer details but BT insisted that it used "reputable external sources". "
is mentioned by the BBC.

This is the problem how I see it.

If Phorm/WebWise came into being. Would this be one of the reputable external sources as well? Who monitors the interceptors. Where would be the accountability.

Maybe even now, some other ISP's may be thinking, BT don't play fair.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've not seen this mentioned yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7522334.stm

I'd be keen to see the intersection of that set of six with the set of ISPs planning to intercept for advertising. Although as BT and Virgin have both sent letters on the matter recently, perhaps not that surprised.

So now they appear to want to act as investigator, judge and jury over file sharing. Oh and I suppose they'll HAVE to intercept the communications to do that. And not just on port 80. As anyone who legally [down/up]loads Linux distributions over P2P will know, you can use any port you like.

Bring on the self signed certificate - and then they'll know I'm a terrorist because I'm encrypting all my traffic. I really do hate the technology that pays my mortgage, when it gets into the wrong hands.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As a side note: anybody else noticing how many tracking cookies are being hosted by the sites carrying articles related to Phorm and NebuAd? And cgi scripts are tricking the browser into displaying 3rd party images - how many of them are also for tracking via logs and cookies?
Time to block images as well as cookies?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

found a odd one humanclickid no idea of ever allowing that one as all cookies have to go by me.