Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He's not the Prince of Darkness, He's a very naughty boy.:)

Pat Hewitt's arrow should point to BT Group should it not?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If we start deciding who are the good and bad guys based on the "I was only following orders" defence then we are becoming totally subjective.

I'm sure that there are people who would tell us what a nice guy Kent is and point to some charitable work that he's also done in his time but it's irrelevent to this issue.

If I question the behaviour of Phorm's staff, BT's staff, the ICO, ministers and MPs or anyone else who has been in any way involved in this no-one complains so there is no way that I can accept that it's right to exempt anyone including Simon Davies from criticism on the basis that it's "bashing".

Once we start making excuses or applying our own justification for some people but not others then we are guilty of discrimination and we will be guilty of bullying certain people because we chose to.

The role of Simon Davies in 80/20Thinking and Privacy International raises serious and relevent issues and needs to be open to discussion without prejudice from any quarter or from either side of the debate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its clear that a small number of BT people were involved, but a single extra server, who would notice? If you walked into a server room, could you tell what every box did? Maybe they were told it was a simple traffic monitoring server for a test project, but I'm guessing now. And especially if the server was designed right, appearing as just another conduit, who would question it?

Its easier to answer why the javascript injections weren't noticed - the network people monitor don't monitor page contents. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To clarify my previous post. no ad hominem attacks on Simon Davies

To question the sense of 80/20 thinking entering into a commercial arrangement with Phorm is reasonable. Whether that then informs any future dealings a person might have with him is a different topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I vote for keeping them on there... because PI are never short of words to damn Google (and hurrah for that)... but not one cotton picking word to say about Phorm.

I find that very 'hard to comprehend' personally, for want of a different word.

And there's only one word I would expect to see in a PIA for mass surveillance. "Never".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So the question remains - why is Privacy International, an organisation that describes itself as "Human rights "watchdog" organization focused on privacy intrusions by government and businesses" so quiet on the subject of Phorm?

This is the same organisation that complained about Google - Kent's favourite target - in writing to the European Commission and included the statement "The entire domain of online advertising is in great need of some transparency and accountability to both nurture it and to ensure that consumers are protected."

It's not possible that PI are unaware of the issue and it falls entirely within their remit so why are they distancing themselves from this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dave Gwozdz Senior VP of Sales & Business Development (Phorm)

Chris Hogan VP of Advertising Partnerships (Phorm)

Wanted help setting up an office in Seoul and approaching the two Korean companies Naver and Daum with an online business opportunity in the behavioral targeting space.

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Okay - here's a couple of treats from BT Beta forums that you guys have missed. You really must keep up!!! :D

Firstly a bit of encouragement - put Phorm into Google and then click on the News link at the top of the page. Then read what you see, and think of all the money that Kent has spent on PR. Enjoy.

Next - we all need a laugh and over on BT Beta we need a laugh more than most. Firstly we are BT customers which is sad enough, and second - we end up with the posters CF rejects. (Like the John West salmon advert). And it is another google gem - I see now why Kent hates Google.

Do a straight google for Phorm again - you may have missed the first entry because it is always Phorm.com - but look more carefully and read the "details" entry. If you don't want to know what it is from this post, but want the full pleasure of doing the google search yourself then look away now - quickly - or if you can't wait - scroll down.
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
Phorm, Inc (formerly 121Media) revolutionizes online advertising and privacy, serving advertising and content tailored to you, while providing fraud ...

and then think about how much money Kent paid for web design and website promotion. This man is in advertising/marketing and ends up with a google entry like that (or maybe google edited it carefully? No that can't be right - I'm sure they didn't!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In an earlier post, it was stated that kent Ertugrul was bad mouthing Alexander to MPs, whilst hawking his wares around the House of Commons. Now I'm sure that people are not allowed to just wander in to the HoC, so who sponsored him? Can we expect to see an MP joining the board of Phorm soon?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No need - BT have already got Patricia Hewitt on their payroll.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's got to be as good as Emma and the Wipe-o-matic!

linky

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL was just about to point that one out! How very apt.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is the word "fraud" in their sales brochure a reference to their cookie hijacking or is it more sinister (can they be anymore sinister?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another weekend nearly gone by and still Virgin Media will not get off that fence. Will they? Wont they?

Gosh, you would think that they are oblivious to the reality that if Phorm/Webwise was adopted by them they would be quids out of pocket.

They surely would lose far more money than BT per customer due to all the other services that would be severed for each account that was closed when customers vote with their feet and go elsewhere.

Remember, when you lose trust you lose trust forever. Check out my thoughts on 121Media if you need to understand that last statement.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought it might bring a little joy.

The page source reveals the full Description tag - if only they'd been a little more restrained in their self-praise...

Let that be a lesson to all you website owners - count the words in your description tag! Otherwise you could lose your ...protection.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see Phorm got 3 SOS's today. VM so far the most votes?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Phorm web pages are actually not very good when you look at them .. looks like a real amateur effort to me!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you make a very good point. It occurs to me that it might be time to write to our MPs again to try to counter whatever falsehoods Ertugrul was peddling about the campaign.
@Alex - do you know how widespread this lobbying was? I gather from what you said in this thread that the general line Ertugrul took was to paint the campaign as having extreme aims. Can you suggest any particular points you think need bringing to the attention of MPs in the light of Ertugrul's lobbying?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is this the Digital PR Agency Phorm chose to help it deal with the interweb?:

http://www.hillandknowlton.com/

Or is that an older PR agency?

it's listed on:

http://news.phorm.com/

And Hillandknowlton claim to be experts in the tech field with regards to PR. Check out their website.

---------- Post added at 00:15 ---------- Previous post was at 00:13 ----------

I keep saying, this is why we need to have a press conference.

We only need a few select 'representatives' - say five - and an audience. We can make clear our aims to the wider press as well as Parliament.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I mailed Bruce a while back and got a nice reply. Though he is now part of BT, we should not be labelling BT employees as enemies by default.

As has been said previous, a great many BT employees do not like the partnership with Phorm.

For Mr Schneiers feelings have a look at this article on wired:
http://www.wired.com/politics/securi...tymatters_0515

"Our data is a part of us. It's intimate and personal, and we have basic rights to it. It should be protected from unwanted touch."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't imagine he's very happy with Phorm or BT right now at all...

---------- Post added at 01:20 ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 ----------

This just in... post from a friend on another talkboard:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"A second Euro MP [Labour] has contacted me. He's written to the UK Information Commisioner to say that it's his opinion that Unless citizens go out of their way to sign up to Phorm, then it is my opinion that Phorm is performing illegal activities and will be challenged by the European Court.

He reminds Richard Thomas of: Directive 95/46/EC on Data Protection, which specifically states that “Member States shall provide that personal data may be processed only if: (a) the data subject has unambiguously given his consent.�

And that this quite clearly suggests that no personal data may be processed unless a citizen has given their consent, rather than “opting out� as that assumes consent has already been given, when it has not.

He seems a lot more aware than most other MPs on IT and privacy issues."

The MP is:

Richard Corbett - Labour Member of the European Parliament for Yorkshire & Humber.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The risk of having a press conference is it makes the opposition to ISP level DPI look like the opposition comes from a single organisation which plays right into Kent's hands.

You also have to face the fact that a press conference requires the press to attend and that is unlikely to happen. The UK general press stays well away from technical issues because it makes poor copy for the papers and their almost total lack of interest in the privacy debate is not about to change.

The only way that this subject is going to get greater attention is to put the technical discussions onto the back-boiler and go straight for the single most basic question for the average person - "Do you want someone reading through ever single thing you do on the internet?"

Very few people would want the government to do that even if it was for supposed security reasons and yet they are not getting fired up about a company doing it for profit.

Instead of aiming for some big National coverage and talking about DPI, e-mail headers and cookies it would be better to go for grass-roots support. Write to local papers and contact local radio stations with the simple message that these huge ISPs are going to read internet usage. Get ordinary people to ask themselves if they would accept this from the Royal Mail and if not why should ISPs be any different.

Go back to all of the questions and point that appeared on these forums back in February and March when the whole subject came to light and you'll realise that it was these simple points that got all of us involved. It is these points that will fire the debate for the average Joe & Josephine who will only be put off by all of the techy stuff. Avoid the use of buzz words and phrases and stick to plain English - "reading" rather than "intercepting" for example.

Go for local or national radio phone-ins rather than trying to get straight on to the BBC tea-time news. Most of all thry to get the 15,000 people who signed the Downing St petition involved and let the press and politicians see this as a subject that actually does concern the general public rather than being an intellectual debate amongst a group of geeks and stop Phorm from twisting the core issue away from basic privacy and towards the information being anonymously used.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the input, Peter N. You make some very good points.

---------- Post added at 02:05 ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 ----------

Phorm (formerly 121Media) Under Fire

http://kickstand.typepad.com/metamus...-formerly.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given that two people who claim to have known Kent personally for several years have come out of the woodwork almost overnight to sing his praises about what a decent chap he is; the more sceptical amongst us might smell a rat.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Decided it's time for another letter to my MP and a letter of response to the letter recently received from Lady Vadera (BERR)

Was going to write to Viviene Redding in response to the recent letter I received via e-mail but decided to wait and see what the response is to the EU letter sent to Gov't and UK authorities.

Letters written and sent!

---------- Post added at 02:36 ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 ----------

"He's accustomed to getting what he wants, and he knows how to do it both through hard work and clever manipulation."

That's a nice quote. We would never have noticed that?
I wonder if the MP's and Lords enjoy being manipulated?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It looks to me as though Phorm's PR are trying to paint the situation as being you versus Kent as though this is just some personal vendetta.

He is a very smooth operator and has great presentation skills. Watch his various recorded appearences you soon see that he gives absolutely no technical descriptions and only ever talks about the system in very general terms. He follows the old sales doctrine of "sell the benefits, not the product".

Whilst it's vital to have the technical details to be able to back-up any arguments, those details don't need to be used to fight Phorm's PR. Fight them at their own game. If Kent says it's anonymous then we say it's private. If Phorm say it won't profile medical issues, we say that can profile health issues. If Kent says it's not as bad as Google, we say it's worse because we only use Google to get to the website.

I would not be surprised to see a personal attack on you coming from a source "outside" of Phorm fairly soon because you seem to have started attracting some good will. I'm sure that you'd agree that Kent has better presentation skills than you have but if he lets you become the underdog then he's lost. He's got to try and portray himself as the victim with you as the tarnished leader of a bunch of geeky fanatics who are just looking for a fight.

It's the same tactic that's often used by governments wherever there is massed protest - claim that there is a group with a hidden agenda orchestrating the protest and paint the rest of the protestors as decent but misguided. If nothing else it completely diverts attention away from the real issue.

The prime issue here is whether or not an ISP should be allowed to intercept and analyse their customers' and other internet users' communications. Phorm is just one company and even if they fail there will others. If DPI is outlawed there's always a new technology around the corner.

I can't stomach Kent - I think he's slimey and has all the morals of a fungus - but the real fight is about getting protection from ISP level abuse of our private communications and the only way to get any reasonable assurance of that is to get more people informed and interested.

If Kent starts fighting dirty then we should just ignore him as he and his company are really just a minor part of the problem. We can take the wind out of his sails by treating him as what he is - just another contractor working for the ISPs and not doing a very good job of it at that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Question if the IT specialists at BT are not privy to the Webwise/Phorm system who does check to see what KE's boxes are doing or is he just taken at his manipulating word that they only do what the spin says,has anyone checked the alteration that have been made to exploit the legality of the Webwise system or is BT about to test nationally and live on the web an uninspected,unexplained piece of kit that yet again the IT men in BT will not have access to monitor to prevent the truth leaking out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That blog article I read as somewhat analogous to the famous job interview question. What are your bad points? Or maybe what are Kent's bad points?
You try to point out the 'bad' points that are in fact the good points.

It's the first time I have seen it described as this:
"PeopleOnPage, which was a nifty browser add-on that showed you people on the same page as you".
I much prefer to believe f-secure's description:

That is similar to how I remember it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I liked this quote from the blog


Hmm what didn't he like ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's quite an old source article, March 2008 supposedly. Before the revelation of secret trials etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget to ask Emma our BT Bot has about as many answers as er er em don't worry
http://help11.creativevirtual.com/BTBot/?JSIN=1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:rofl:

"You asked me:
if i opt out of webwise, will all my browsing still pass through the profiler equipment?

My answer is:
Your profile is the place where your preferences, personal information and contact information are stored. You can:
Keep your email up to date and make changes to your personal information e.g. title and contact details
Create a new password and security question to manage your account online
Update your BT bill payment method e.g. Monthly Payment Plan and Whole Bill Direct Debit
Add details of other accounts you wish to manage online
Store details for up to three credit or debit cards used to pay for goods and services as well as BT bills
Save and update delivery address details as necessary
Elect to receive regular emails from us about special offers, products and services in the preferences section"

Still, I bet they're telling Emma more about Phorm/Webwise than they are their telephone support staff....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll second this. JR is a top bloke, and if for a second I thought he had been involved in this product I would a) have been surprised and b) would probably have trusted their claims a little more.

Anyone involved in network security will take about 2 seconds to discover who this person is as he is quite visible in the community. Campaigners might even be able to email him directly using the old firstname.lastname@domainname that is used at BT. Nuff said.

It's also worth pointing out that anything added or removed from BT's network (be it BT Retail or other group members) is subject to a change request being approved.

This CR has many details, such as a summary of the intended purpose, backout plans, and a list of approval groups that need to sign it off before it can be added to the network.

I can't imagine something that is placed in such a crucial position in the network would not have a CR. It would nice if that information made it into the public domain wouldn't it ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that sounds helpful - I think Mr Corbett is one of the less "spinnable" Labour MP's and certainly familiar with being outspoken in disagreement with his whips.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

An update on the Philip Stafford FT article. Although I didn't ever get a reply to my online complaint about the inaccuracy of this article, (anyone else?) I see that the article has had yet another correction.

If you remember the original had several faults and was quickly corrected in one respect when presumably the VM and CPW people pointed out that they had NOT conducted trials. But there was still a claim that other UK ISP's had conducted trials apart from BT. That was what I wrote in about to FT, and reminded them that in view of their alleged connection OIX they needed to make sure they weren't influencing Phorm's share price with inaccurate reporting or else the regulator might be interested.

And I see the article has now been corrected again - here's the comparison

Mark 1 version included this:
"BT will begin further trials in the next few weeks of a controversial advertising technology that it hopes will give it a slice of the lucrative online advertising market.

The group is one of three UK internet service providers which have conducted trials of technology developed by Phorm, an Aim-listed company, which tracks the web-surfing habits of its internet users to enable it to target advertising more tightly.

Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also run trials."

Then they produced Mark 2 which altered the final sentence above to read:

"Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also agreed to evaluate the service but are yet to run trials."

the current version (Mark 3?) has instead:
BT will begin further trials in the next few weeks of a controversial advertising technology that it hopes will give it a slice of the lucrative online advertising market.

The group has conducted trials of technology developed by Phorm, an Aim-listed company, which tracks the web-surfing habits of its internet users to enable it to target advertising more tightly.

Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also agreed to evaluate the service but are yet to run trials.

So thank you FT. And remember - it's always worth complaining!!

So - the only people still in the frame for having conducted trials are BT.
VM Webwise page states unequivocally that they have NOT tested the technology.
The relative ease with which we were able to get the FT article corrected suggests that maybe, just maybe, there is a little more corporate nervousness around than there was a few months ago.

The FT may have been UNinphormed,
and perhaps some were suspicious that it was DEphormed, (OIX)
but after they got INphormed, (complaints)
we saw evidence that at least that article got REphormed.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34c59420-5...nclick_check=1

Folks just keep adding up the situations where you are seeing a gradual shift in perception - be encouraged. People - opinion formers, enforcers, legislators and ordinary members of the public ARE slowly getting the picture. So keep it simple, keep it coming, and keep going.

And a hello to any BT execs reading this. It's my "voracious appetite for detail" you see. I think YOU need a few people with a voracious appetite for detail too - like people who can read statutes carefully?

Watching you watching us. Best wishes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.btcustomerevents.com/secu.../john_regnault

You would have thought that this person would have been involved in advising the BT board about the trials wouldn't you?

And Bruce Schneiers' blog is a good read btw
http://www.schneier.com/blog/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Morning, I have just been reading yesterdays "Mail On Sunday" and in the "Financial Mail" section there is an article headed "BT Rivals Pay Broadband Toll". At the end of this article there is this bit -

"Meanwhile Vivienne Reding, European Commissioner for Information Society and Media, demanded that Ofcom should investigate BT's secret trials to spy on internet customers' browsing habits in order to target advertisements"

I hope that this will make a few more people aware of what is going on.

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting that the meeting was on 20th June 2007 - just when the 2007 trial started and the agenda includes: The security threat environment is constantly changing. By the end of 2007, Gartner* predicts that ‘75% of enterprises will be affected with financially motivated, targeted malware that evaded their traditional perimeter and host defences.’ - BT's bold.

The only thing they got wrong is that the threat level is now at 100%.

And: Senior BT executives will outline the critical threats keeping security officers awake at night. They will be joined by senior security professionals from the DTI and Reuters who will share their valuable experiences in securing large scale networks.

If I wasn't such an innocent I may suspect that BT were on a fishing expedition.

Has anyone written to any other speakers at that meeting? Who talked about DPI for profiling and anti-phishing. Was it discussed under 'Ethical hacking - preventing the unthinkable'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While we are thinking about network security and how it works within BT - I found this document (while trying to research who shot JR)

http://www.btglobalservices.com/busi...sestudy_EN.pdf

There are quite a few names in there, they may or may not be current, and remembering the BT email principle - firstnameDOTlastnameATbtDOTcom - maybe we could contact them to ask about how involved they were with the 2006 and 2007 trials?

It does occur to me that the police might want to have a ferret around the staff involved in BT network security and ask who did and who didn't know about the secret trials.

This page of google might repay a little investigation - I've searched on
"President, Security" then refined with a Search Within string of "BT"
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...n%C2%A0results

There is a video of Bruce Schneier from 2007 here
http://www.networked.bt.com/bigthinkers_security.php
Includes a panel member from F-Secure (who have since formed a negative view of Phorm's technology)

Must go - have a good day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it worth contacting David Davies, the Conservative MP who recently resigned over the 42 day detention policy? He is a big advocate re 'defending our basic freedoms' and in this particular article (http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...&obj_id=145275) says:

'We will soon have the most intrusive ID card system in the world. There is a CCTV camera for every 14 citizens - despite growing evidence of their ineffectiveness as deployed. We have the largest DNA database in the world, larger than any dictatorship, with thousands of innocent children and millions of innocent citizens on it.'

and in this article (http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...bj_id=145263):

'This may be the last speech I make to the House. Of course, that would be a cause of deep regret to me.

But at least my electorate, and the nation as a whole, would have had the opportunity to debate and consider one of the most fundamental issues of the day the ever intrusive power of the state into their daily lives, the loss of privacy, the loss of freedom and the steady attrition undermining the rule of law.'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Online at http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...9&in_page_id=3

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just read through Bruce Schneiers' blog back until February and nary a mention of Phorm (expect a couple of people mentioning it in the comments).

Now that tells a story in itself.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would seem, at last, that mainstream media is finally starting to report snippets of the BT/Phorm scandal.

BBC News has published an extract from the HoL questions last thursday:

'Test case'

Lord West was also asked about trials by BT of an online system of advertising involving more than 30,000 of its customers, known as Phorm.

In 2006 and 2007 this matched adverts to users' web habits, although BT did not inform customers they were part of such a project.

The peer said the government was "not aware" of the tests beforehand, and an investigation was now checking if these had been "appropriate".

Since then BT had made a formal approach to begin a trial "of about 10,000 broadband subscribers", Lord West said, but he was unclear if this was "covered by law".

A test case might be needed to consider whether this was a form of "interception", he added.

©BBC News

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - the message IS penetrating. And it is important to remember - these guys (who make media editing decisions - not the reporters themselves) are as yet UNinphormed, and may even have been DEphormed. But that doesn't make them enemies. We need to take it gently and not rant at them just because we have been living with this for a few months and get frustrated at the MISinphormation.

It just needs a new non techie, non patronising vocabulary, focussed on technophobes or technilliterates, that makes it clear in politically astute, PR conscious language, that ordinary people will resonate with.

So - words like
interception of your broadband line, snooping, keeping track of where you go/what web sites you visit, watching you while you are online, hitting you with targetted adverts, making the internet more complicated and more fragile, making your web pages load slower, making your browsing less safe, and less private. Exposing your children to unnecessary risk by following THEM round the internet. Assuming everyone wants this unless they actually switch it off. Justifying it by using secret unpublished research that no one has actually seen.

And for the politicians - making the internet less trusting - do the security services want to see everyone using an encrypted internet? Or will that make protecting national security a lot harder? Do they want e-commerce to become vulnerable? Do they want MP's and home workers to have their data traffic snooped on by a Russian linked company?

Meanwhile, with the more INphormed - carry on the technical analysis and really show them we (well you - I don't understand it at all!) know what you are talking about, and that the technical people are very alarmed about this vulnerable man-in-the-middle weak Phorm controlled DPI link in the infrastructure. Root out the Gibsons, the JR's, the Claytons, and keep them talking.

The downside of this is that it will probably result in "scaremongering" accusations - but I think we can live with that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also from Beeb article.

ouch.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that piece of independent googling. I'll email the gentleman with the initials JR. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Slight correction. "...enjoy being cleverly manipulated" ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the

http://kickstand.typepad.com/metamus...-formerly.html comments section.

my bold !


Jonah you on here ? PM me if you are.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hail the honest whistleblowers that have to live with their conscience!
three cheers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Entity-Relationship diagram updated (July 21):

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9408/phormumlil1.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not to be forgotten : webwise.net and its various subdomains - the cookie king

Plus the 2 Korean companies and the NY marketing folk setting it up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, definitely. If someone could please list all the alias domains, that would be useful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lots on badphorm (including the weird PSInet server)

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?7062

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also check this list.

http://toolbar.netcraft.com/netblock...89.145.113.255

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not sure how productive the inclusion of every domain and IP address will be as they change so often.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Latest:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1674/phormumlax4.jpg

Didn't include all domains because they actually resolve to different websites.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might be easier to just type a link to BadPhorm's list.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another mainstream newspaper piece, this time in last Friday’s business section of theTelegraph.

EC concerned over Phorm’s advertising

The European Commission has warned the Government it needs to take action to protect consumer privacy due to concerns about targeted advertising company Phorm.

Phorm’s technology tracks consumer activity on the internet and the company has agreements with the UK’s three largest internet service providers, BT, Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media. A Phorm spokesman said he was unaware of the development, adding the company complies with all the relevant UK laws.


--John

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You need to add naughty hacker Roman Gaufman (aka Hackeron) he is linked to

[ * ] 121Media (his employer)
[ * ] Stratis Scleparis (his BT collaborator)
[ * ] BT Retail (the place where he unleashed his malware)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seeing as The Telegraph have expressed interest to join the OIX, I wonder if this piece of excellent [but factually inaccurate] reporting will make them reconsider?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's obviously come from the same press release as inspired the FT article as it has the same mistakes about CPW, and VM and "trials".

Okay - here we go again. Phorm PR obviously still totally useless.

Anyone got the full text? reading it more carefully (slap self on wrist) the text you quoted doesn't repeat the claims about 3 ISPs doing trials, but I wonder if VM and CPW would be happy about the text claiming Phorm has "agreements" with them? I thought only BT had an agreement and VM had a memorandum of understanding, and CPW was just keeping its head down and hoping no one noticed?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a small note regarding the relationship diagram.
121Media is still in existence, except now it's a subsidiary of Phorm.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It could simply be 'copycat journalism', in which case it is the editors fault for failing to substantiate the content of the article.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The petition is up to 15,721 Signatures Total on 21/07/2008 :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Got a reply but holiday season has intervened so I'll have to wait another week or so for a genuine personal response.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will also be away for a few days starting tomorrow, so I may not be able to post as frequently.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Robert

If you are referring to the text in my post #12458, then that is the entire text - it was just a small piece in the 'In Brief' column.

--John

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can someone please explain what Roman Gaufman did when he worked at 121Media and what he wrote for BT Retail?

Is the BT Retail connection about the Javascript web injections?

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:13 ----------

What is Roman's connection with Stratis?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

from linkedin


felixcatuk on the BT beta forum has a copy of his CV if you wan't it.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?4330

Maybe contact him at his cctv company !!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This puppy's getting a bit unwieldy. Will have to explode the diagram soon.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4673/phormumlla5.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's the complicated web they weave!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem is that the whole thing is layered rather than mapped so 2D diagram is going to be all but impossible.

What is it that you are actually hoping to show with your diagram? If you can ut it into words it may hel you to organise your thoughts and perhaps starting again would be easier than trying to correct the existing chart.

Just a suggestion but maybe the user should be at the centre of your map.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Someone has suggested to me in a PM that I drop dabs.com from the diagram. The reason being that it is actually a pretty sound company (I agree) and that it has nothing to do with Phorm at all.

I originally put dabs.com there so people can put more pressure on BT through a boycott.

What do people think? Should we get dabs involved? Keep it? Remove it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You could just add it as a line in the BT company box along with BT Telephony, Wholesale, OpenReach etc. I'm not sure on why it needs to be mentioned though - BT is a huge multi-National with dozens of divisions and companies under it's belt.

---------- Post added at 00:59 ---------- Previous post was at 00:40 ----------

Going anywhere nice?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a nice one - The Tehran Times, an Iranian newspaper, carries a story about BT's 2006/2007 trials. That's more than some British newspapers have managed to do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Being getting a few calls from BT about renewing my contract for another 12 months. Every time I mention Phorm, Webwise, or profiling, the teley rep doesn't know anyting about it, suprise, suprise. Of course I try to inphorm them and send them to badphorm, noDPI and the BT forums. There are enought links there to get them to here, I don't want to overwhelm them but get them at least aware of the issues.
Had a call last night, asked them again about Phorm, Webwise and was immediately told to contact customer services with any questions?
Whether that is just a cop out line or not I don't know as I haven't called them yet.
Account is in wife's name so of course I can't contact them directly, need the misses to do it first.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd leave it on there. Many people don't realise they're linked, and anything that brings pressure on BT is a good thing.

Bear in mind too, suppose BT blacklist Dabs, but not Dixons, Action Electronics, RS, JohnLewis... Dabs will gain an unfair competitive advantage because its private unencrypted communications are not being used to profile customers.

I'd be interested to know what other business BT own, so I can boycott them too.

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 ----------

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/9.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I too have already started boycotting dabs since I found out they are owned by BT.

Again I have lagged behind a bit so apologies but I'm picking up on the mention of cookies earlier in the thread.

Another "anti-competitive" thought I had on this whole sorry saga surrounds cookies. Now this is just a thought, I am not saying that they will do this... it's purely hypothetical.

We know that the device that intercepts your requests strips out the forged cookies that they create. What is to stop them stripping out any cookies from competing ad networks? Eg doubleclick, google etc. I'm not saying that I approve of the other ad networks but there is definately an unfair advantage to be gained by doing so.

Also, (catching up again) there was suggestion that they do not actually tamper with the data stream because the processing gets performed on a mirrored copy of the page (at least in the latest known version of the system). Would the setting of forged cookies then stripping them out not count as modifying the data stream? (even though it is invisible to the website the user is visiting)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It certainly would. They peform n redirects in order to set the cookies in the first place (which in itself is a corruption of the communication), then set fake cookies, then strip them out on the outward request, and require you to retain an opt out cookie if you don't want to be profiled that you wouldn't otherwise require. And latency is added to your communication as a consequence of an additional 'network hop'.

Its a technical shambles. Phorm want you to get hung up on the details. Phorm will always counter that we've misunderstood their 'genius', or it will be fixed in version n+1, or simply lie and obfuscate the truth.

Its the essence, the principle of the thing that is wrong. No one should do this to private unencrypted communications (commercial or personal). Period. Its the fact they are intercepting communication without consent of both parties to the dialog that is deeply profoundly wrong... and all else follows.

The tech details are barely relevant. :) Phorm must be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The basic principle of the operation is a proxy service, which by default is an interception as it terminates your connection before making the onward connection on your behalf.

If they claim they are just mirroring the datastream for analysis, how the hell are they supposed to inject different adverts?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The same way that all the other targeted systems do. The script which displays the advert uses the UID in the domain cookie to talk to the Webwise/OIX UID databases - not within the ISP side of the firewall, and then deliver the advert.

As the code which calls the script is hosted by a webpage which the user has requested, the browser trusts it and calls the script. The same way that the browser trusts the google-analytics script. It gets around the usual 3rd party script/cookie blocking by using the domain name of the web page.

All the initial datastream will have is the ad script so there won't be any modification there by the proxy. Have to assume that there is no bouncing around when the ad script talks to the external ad serving database. If there were, by the time the advert was delivered, most people would already have clicked away from the page.

If you think of it - the script is delivered by the proxy, the analysis by the mirror, which advert you see/last saw is handled by the webwise/oix database server. (No wonder there were comments about power usage)

The above is open to correction: I just can't see any other way it could be done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

sounds not very green

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You worry about competing ad networks? How about when Phorm was trying to sign up as an affiliate at all the ad networks - would you trust them not to modify the affiliate ID? No one would expect them to modify 100% of the IDs because that would be too easy to trace. What about 1% - or even 0.1%?

When someone sits in the middle of a datastream, you really do have to trust them with everything. Start to think about it and the only conclusion that you can come to is that if just one thing can be injected into the datastream then the final delivery can no longer be trusted. Neither the up nor the down stream is pure.

Where DPI is used for traffic control, the worst thing that happens is that the ISP router delays some data packets in preference for other data packets. There is no modification of or addition to the data packets.

With Phorm, there are additional data packets and those packets can contain anything. Only cookies, as far as we know. UIDs are stored in cookies. Affiliate IDs are stored in cookies. Passwords are stored in cookies. Usernames are stored in cookies. IP addresses are stored in cookies. Anything can be stored in cookies.

Trust.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, the diagram was not intended for general public consumption - though they are more than welcome to look at it if they please. My original intention was to show all the people involved and their relationships to help clarify *in my mind* what was going on. Then I realised it could be useful for the anti-Phorm campaign, since it would give us a bigger picture of what is going on and areas to investigate.

Therefore, I think it's right that Phorm stays in the middle of the diagram.

As for dabs - I've already heard a few people claim to have started a boycott with this information. Many people seem to want to leave it. Unless someone can come up with a very good reason to remove it, I shall leave it there for the time being.

I'm off to Italy today. Will try to post while I'm there, but it's not certain.

Keep up the fight!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That makes sense to me.

Have a good holiday and don't forget to send a postcard :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, just a quick update to the Hosts file inclusions....
I have contacted MVPS and received the following email which may be of interest :)

Thanks for the feedback ...

re: Please consider the following for inclusion"
I already have included the following:

# [NebuAd]
127.0.0.1 a.faireagle.com
127.0.0.1 www.faireagle.com
127.0.0.1 www.nebuad.com

As for Phorm ... most of the entries you included are not valid.
Most of those sites are now "For Sale" and thus no longer legit.

Once any valid evidence of what entries are "in use" I will surely
add those to the HOSTS file ...

Microsoft MVP - Internet Explorer & Consumer Security
"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Slightly OT, FYI


For all those commenting on the odd share price PHRM LN is not a SETS stock its a market maker stock.


They are

KAUP
WINS
CANA

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I keep seeing this quoted in various stories and it's beginning to annoy me. Is this the standard by which policy is being made by senior figures in government and elsewhere? Looking at a postcard only requires opportunity and the ability to read. Viewing my net activity requires deliberate interception by skilled people using expensive network kit. If my net activity is being routinely intercepted and "looked at" who exactly is doing it and under what authority?

Why am I reminded of "Senator tubes" over in the US when I read this sort of comment from a senior figure?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I definately don't worry about competing ad networks. ;) I was just trying to highlight the sort of abuse that the system is open to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There have been so many MOD laptops left on busses and in taxis over the last couple of years that Data Protection is clearly not that well understood by the military.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree. He has chosen the wrong analogy. I would expect my unencrypted Internet communications to be as secure as a postal letter. To view the contents of a letter you have to open it, which is illegal (except under very specific conditions) if you are a third party.

So ... who is volunteering to persuade Lord West to alter his position?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem is, it has been said, and quoted all over the place.

It's like a lawyer making a statement in court only for the judge to say "the jury will disregard that comment" Too late! it has been said and the jury is influenced.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When all of this came to light in February, I don't think any of us realised just how unsecured our daily internet usage really is. Although his Lordship's remarks are inaccurate I think that people reading them will at least be more alert to the risks and receptive to the case for controls.

I don't believe that anyone would read that and think that it means it's too late to address the problem. More likely that they'll say "what can we do about it?" and it's up to people like us to provide at least some of the answers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey Guys

In regards to my post about receiving a letter form my MP, Rt Hon Alistair Darling MP, a few days ago - I emailed him and received another response today, touching on the view from BERR:

"Thank you for you email. Looking at Mr Hutton's letter again, he doesn't say that he has no real concerns about the Phorm system at all. He does say that the Government is committed to ensuring that people's privacy is protected. That's why the Information Commissioner's Office has been looking at these proposals and that it is compliant with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. Howver, I shall ask Mr Hutton to deal with the other points in your email and write to you again as soon as I can."

I thought it prudent to post this, as it clearly shows there is concern within BERR, and Mr Darling clearly wished to indicate this as soon as he could.

Again, Mr Darling is very hands on and I trust him to gain the information I requested.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I didn't think the ICO had anything to do with RIPA?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's a little unclear what he is saying in the line "That's why the Information Commissioner's Office has been looking at these proposals and that it is compliant with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act.". There seems to be a word missing between "proposals and" and "that it is".

He may mean "and is satisfied that" or he could mean "and will ensure that" - two very different statements as one implis that it is case closed.

Other than that it is good to get a response like this and to have someone of Darling's stature taking the time to reply. Well done you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lord West hasn't been REphormed yet. Patience!! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi,

"Deep-packet inspection can be a useful tool for network management, said David Farber, a computer science and public policy professor at Carnegie Mellon. "What's almost obscene is the fact that people are using it to gather information about what I'm sending on the network and selling that information to other people," Farber said. "That is completely obscene and should be stopped."

Taken from here -


http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...c=netflash-rss

and this -

"During some highly contentious hearings on Capitol Hill, it seems to have come as a shock and surprise to the executives at NebuAd that people might have a problem with having their Internet connection spied upon for advertising purposes.

Taken from here -

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/sec...ike+Spying.htm

Dave.

and just seen this ref. the BT/Tiscali row -

"Some privacy experts have questioned how BT got hold of customer details but BT insisted that it used "reputable external sources".

From here -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7519625.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe that BERR may have some responsibilty, the extent of which I am waiting for confirmation for.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a letter back from my MP he apologised for the late reply then I was shocked to read further. He has been unable to trace any information on the specific concerns I mentioned... He asked me for further information..

Well I know I mentionied phorm, webwise, BT stealth trials 2006/7, interception forged cookies and suppose I now need to sit down and rethink this and try to find a way to give him all the information he needs without his need to research...