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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

Sephiroth 30-07-2021 09:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36087923)
You need to own your decision to vote for Johnson and Brexit and not try and push the responsibility for sorting the situation out onto others.

Your MP may be worth consulting - after all it was he who said 'Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.'
No - you can't wriggle out of it by blaming me.

Why would you be content for the UK to improve relations with the EU with the result that they then call all the shots?

1andrew1 30-07-2021 09:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36087924)
No - you can't wriggle out of it by blaming me.

Why would you be content for the UK to improve relations with the EU with the result that they then call all the shots?
I've not actually said the latter and you've still not advised me what cards we hold. You know everything is a question of trade-offs and hopefully appreciate you can't have your cake and eat it.

Sephiroth 30-07-2021 09:29
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36087926)
I've not actually said the latter and you've still not advised me what cards we hold. You know everything is a question of trade-offs and hopefully appreciate you can't have your cake and eat it.
You're still wriggling, Andrew. You want a "deft negotiator" (no objection there) to bring the UK into a better relationship with the EU knowing that the EU holds all the cards. By reductio ad absurdum, you are content that whatever emerges will advantage the EU more than the UK - the EU would call the shots going forward. That is unacceptable.

As to the cards held by the UK, I take your point well. But your point is predicated on improving relations with the EU. We don't need to improve relations, imo. If we hold any cards, it's "deftly" getting the blame for any disruption or disorder in NI blamed on the EU.

jonbxx 30-07-2021 10:13
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36087928)
You're still wriggling, Andrew. You want a "deft negotiator" (no objection there) to bring the UK into a better relationship with the EU knowing that the EU holds all the cards. By reductio ad absurdum, you are content that whatever emerges will advantage the EU more than the UK - the EU would call the shots going forward. That is unacceptable.

As to the cards held by the UK, I take your point well. But your point is predicated on improving relations with the EU. We don't need to improve relations, imo. If we hold any cards, it's "deftly" getting the blame for any disruption or disorder in NI blamed on the EU.
If the EU has things we want, then, by definition, the EU holds cards. It's up to us now to decide if the price is worth paying to get access. You get nothing for free in this world, even if you are the United Kingdom.

The price of maintaining the Peace Process in Northern Ireland was Northern Ireland still being somewhat in the EU, that was clear. If we as a nation decide that a few months later, that isn't a price worth paying, then the Peace Process collapses. That's on us.

mrmistoffelees 30-07-2021 10:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36087934)
If the EU has things we want, then, by definition, the EU holds cards. It's up to us now to decide if the price is worth paying to get access. You get nothing for free in this world, even if you are the United Kingdom.

The price of maintaining the Peace Process in Northern Ireland was Northern Ireland still being somewhat in the EU, that was clear. If we as a nation decide that a few months later, that isn't a price worth paying, then the Peace Process collapses. That's on us.
Eloquently put, simply explained.

Alas, people will still try and argue that black is white.

Carth 30-07-2021 10:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36087937)
Eloquently put, simply explained.

Alas, people will still try and argue that black is white.
In a room with no light source, white is also black ;)

mrmistoffelees 30-07-2021 10:38
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36087939)
In a room with no light source, white is also black ;)
It also means people can't see what's in front of them....

Sephiroth 30-07-2021 10:50
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36087934)
If the EU has things we want, then, by definition, the EU holds cards. It's up to us now to decide if the price is worth paying to get access. You get nothing for free in this world, even if you are the United Kingdom.

The price of maintaining the Peace Process in Northern Ireland was Northern Ireland still being somewhat in the EU, that was clear. If we as a nation decide that a few months later, that isn't a price worth paying, then the Peace Process collapses. That's on us.
For all your eloquence, Jon I'm not sure what you mean in your first paragraph - "get access". Andrew was idealistically saying that we need to have a better relationship with the EU. He went no further than that other than to curse the current negotiators.

On your second paragraph, the result of what we signed is a tight implementation of the NI Protocol by the EU. I don't think for one moment the nation doesn't want to protect peace in NI; but clearly the EU's implementation of the Protocol is disrupting the peace. Something has to be done about that and the price that the EU wants to exact is to call the shots elsewhere in the name of "better relations".

papa smurf 30-07-2021 11:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36087941)
It also means people can't see what's in front of them....
or what's behind them.

Carth 30-07-2021 11:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I'm not a big card player, but I think that if someone holds all the cards it means:

1) they've got over 21 and bust
2) they're cheating
3) it's their turn to deal

jonbxx 30-07-2021 12:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36087947)
For all your eloquence, Jon I'm not sure what you mean in your first paragraph - "get access". Andrew was idealistically saying that we need to have a better relationship with the EU. He went no further than that other than to curse the current negotiators.

On your second paragraph, the result of what we signed is a tight implementation of the NI Protocol by the EU. I don't think for one moment the nation doesn't want to protect peace in NI; but clearly the EU's implementation of the Protocol is disrupting the peace. Something has to be done about that and the price that the EU wants to exact is to call the shots elsewhere in the name of "better relations".
By access, I mean access for trade, protection of mutual interests, etc. We don't necessarily need good relations with our neighbours to get a warm fuzzy feeling, we want and need good relations for our own benefit.

Remember Charles De Gaulle - 'No nation has friends only interests' (yes I know he's French...)

On the Northern Ireland thing, The EUs job was to represent Irelands place in the Peace Process, not the UKs. Ireland stance is that the border should remain open and the NI Protocol does that. What happens with Unionists in the North is the UKs issue. If the border is to stay open, the UK has to either anger Northern Irish Unionists by keeping the Irish Sea 'border' or Conservative back benchers (and most of the people on this forum) by aligning more closely with the EU. Based on that, Boris Johnson is throwing Unionists under the bus in a heartbeat

1andrew1 30-07-2021 12:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36087947)
For all your eloquence, Jon I'm not sure what you mean in your first paragraph - "get access". Andrew was idealistically saying that we need to have a better relationship with the EU. He went no further than that other than to curse the current negotiators.
It's not an idealistic thing to want better relations with your key trading partner, it's a pragmatic one.

And I did go beyond this and this is a point jonbxx has expanded upon:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36087926)
You know everything is a question of trade-offs

pip08456 30-07-2021 13:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36087965)
By access, I mean access for trade, protection of mutual interests, etc. We don't necessarily need good relations with our neighbours to get a warm fuzzy feeling, we want and need good relations for our own benefit.

Remember Charles De Gaulle - 'No nation has friends only interests' (yes I know he's French...)

On the Northern Ireland thing, The EUs job was to represent Irelands place in the Peace Process, not the UKs. Ireland stance is that the border should remain open and the NI Protocol does that. What happens with Unionists in the North is the UKs issue. If the border is to stay open, the UK has to either anger Northern Irish Unionists by keeping the Irish Sea 'border' or Conservative back benchers (and most of the people on this forum) by aligning more closely with the EU. Based on that, Boris Johnson is throwing Unionists under the bus in a heartbeat
He was my hero!

Quote:
Britain first began talks to join the EEC in July 1961. The UK's applications to join in 1963 and 1967 were vetoed by the President of France, Charles de Gaulle.

Sephiroth 30-07-2021 13:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36087973)
He was my hero!
Quote:
Britain first began talks to join the EEC in July 1961. The UK's applications to join in 1963 and 1967 were vetoed by the President of France, Charles de Gaulle.
Perfidious then, perfidious now.

1andrew1 30-07-2021 13:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36087975)
Perfidious then, perfidious now.
He's dead isn't he?


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