Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, at some point in the near future, I think it would be a good idea to create an entity-relationship diagram for all the members of BT, Phorm, Home Office, etc. who are involved. Even better would be a time line of who did what and when.

It would help us to clarify the picture and would be a good thing to show other people who are suspicious about the way the Phorm scandal has developed in the UK.

Furthermore, I agree with Alex that it was a very successful day, but it was slightly disappointing that more people didn't show up. We know that there are hundreds of people reading this forum topic and thousands of people who are aware of the issue nationally. Given that is the case, the percentage turnout was very low.

Anyway, on a positive note, Alex and Dephormation were absolute stars today. :clap: :handshake

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 ----------

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Those of you who went to the PIA meeting back in April should be able to remember an elderly gentleman in the audience who was literally choking on his own emotions when he asked a question about Phorm. It was one of the most humbling experiences you could ever have, a man who defended our futures fighting in the war, making sacrifices beyond our comprehension, moved to tears over this issue of privacy. It is the actions of people like him who gave us these rights in the first place; European Convention on Human Rights was bourne out of that war, a time of darkness and loss for millions and here we are just 60 years on throwing it all away.

We should all try to remember him a little more often when we need a reminder of just how important this is.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good idea but we should be really be using UML (actors and stakeholders) ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pete, its gotta be said - good work bud :D

Other areas of interest include the Directives covering the following:

- Children and Consent
- Protection of human Rights
- Equalities

I have a lot of references to these on my main PC; and will be home about teatime today and will post what I can. But pleaes also spend some time Pete, the more info we have the better.

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I promised myself I would never, ever again use UML after I graduated from Uni. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

do we have space anywhere where we can place EC directive etc and links to them so as to get the full picture on our rights and what regs and rules we believe they have broken and why, if poss cross ref to exact directive, section, paragraph etc

then we need someone to go through and check we have drawn the correct conclusion and place it in a repository so we can sort the wheat from the chaff

i know richard clayton did a fair bit for us in his paper but there has got to be more, as we have many people on here with diferent thought processes and views

much better to be able to quote ec reg xyz section one, para 4 rather than just ec reg xyz this would look much more professional and organised, the only issue is do we hide it from public view to keep our cards covered or lay them on the table for all to see, including BT and phorm?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a section for technical and legal papers on the NoDPI Phorm forum.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

next bit

********
Article 20 Prior checking
1:- Member States shall determine the processing operations likely to present specific risks to the rights and freedoms of data subjects and shall check that these processing operations are examined prior to the start thereof. (that just about blows trial out the water)

2:- Such prior checks shall be carried out by the supervisory authority following receipt of a notification from the controller or by the data protection official(now when did BT talk to ICO first???), who, in cases of doubt, must consult the supervisory authority.

3:- Member States may also carry out such checks in the context of preparation either of a measure of the national parliament or of a measure based on such a legislative measure, which define the nature of the processing and lay down appropriate safeguards( hmm that sounds like something the ICO should have done)
************

oh well time for sleep, got to be up just after 6

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to wonder about some of that :shocked:

To the best of my knowledge for this period, they were still 121Media and they were still stealth installing ContextPlus and the Apropos rootkit. I was removing those infections from systems into 2006.

So they used the income earned from a despicable technological means of forced installation and forced advertising to develop an even more despicable technological means of serving advertising. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

2005 Interim Results

We are making good progress in using the information generated by PageSense Javascript...
We are also close to finalising a partnership agreement with one of the largest ISPs in the US, which we believe will set an important precedent for the deployment of PageSense throughout the ISP market.

what happen to that relationship??? who were they??? why did it not go ahead???

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You have about as much chance of finding that out as Kent does of realising his £500 stock options ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

quote from kent
"I am very pleased with our progress to
date and excited that we are playing such a key role in redefining a new pricing model
for ISPs. 121Media’s progress is the direct result of the recent convergence of significant
pressure on ISP margins,"

does that sound familiar to anyone, that was from http://www.phorm.com/reports/Trading...e_Jan-2006.pdf

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They seem to have made progress in 4 years from `close to finalising a partnership agreement with one of the largest ISPs in the US', to `Phorm may also be eyeing the U.S. market' on Mar 5, 2008.

Which to me says, can you trust anything they say?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

have a look at http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article...419070000PB494

norice the ref to car phone warehouse about halfway down, this is from 2006???

notice same sales pitch and target audience

could have been from the last few months apart from mentions 121media and pagesense

they raised the capital, promised buy in from ISP's but never went live

de ja vue????

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Notice the line:

Sales and Administrative expenses (6,182,798) (2,063,848)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For the benefit of newcomers: Don't get too hung up about what phorm does or does not do. We have already seen how its claimed behaviour has been tweaked on the fly as more blatant examples of illegal practices have been uncovered. It is clear from the phorm patent application that it can potentially be far more intrusive than currently admitted to. In an injudicious moment they were also caught on the record boasting that 'phorm can see the entire Internet'.

The fact is that BT (or whatever ISP) is streaming a copy of all your browsed data into a 'black box' provided by phorm. No-one is able to audit or verify what goes on inside the box. We are expected to trust that the box will only do what they say. Would you trust a bunch of crooks who previously made their money by tricking people into downloading spyware? Because in its previous incarnation as 121media this is exactly what phorm did. They have now discovered that it is easier for them to bribe ISPs into providing the data instead.

BT Retail has been incredibly naive in going along with this so far, blinded no doubt by the prospect of easy money and maybe some inside help to sweetheart the technology into the company. That's why the only way to avoid the technology would be to move to a guaranteed phorm (or NebuAd ar Frontporch) -free ISP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Check this link
http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperfor.../Questions.htm
for the AGM questions - due to be published later today. I wonder if they will actually put them up?
Good link to use for publishing the issue as it is on the BT corporate website.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jackson beat me too it, but he was right.

Its luck rather than design that means Phorm can't exploit Safari. When that hole is plugged, Safari would become as vulnerable as any other browser. And Phorm aren't likely to warn you.

So, moving ISP is the only way to be certain you avoid Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

pete

well done yesterday, like your style, will be good to see what spin and gloss BT try and put on the questions you asked, you should have taken alex's digi recorder in with you

did you see my finds last night in eu docs?

seems like you may have some more FoI or dpa requests to write shortly

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It seems that even the Webwise anti-phishing figleaf is not without risk: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...r_false_alert/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A big thank you to all who where at the protest yesterday. :clap::clap:
It is very heart warming and good to know that people out there will stand up for other people’s rights.

Same excuse as most who couldn't attend, work commitments. But that is just an excuse and won't be used in the future. Pencil my name in for the next event.
I have done the correspondences to my MP(Labour, so not much use), and MEP. All I got was the same claptrap and Phorm pr spin that everyone else has received.
A few more letters will be going out once I digest the new information from the EU.

Doing my bit on the sidelines. Trying to keep a low profile so that I might be one of the ‘lucky’ few to be selected to trial the exciting new webwise, so that this group will have access to a connection that is being phormed.

For those of you at the forefront of the fight it is all very much appreciated.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done everyone for the AGM protest, sounds like it went well, Dephormation was certainly a bolt out of the blue. Sorry could not personally attend had a breakdown, was really looking forward to meeting you all, will use public transport next time.
Has anyone heard of any news coverage yet, or any planned late breaking news due to the other issues yesterday taking priority.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It looks like BT are hiding their news again. Anyone have a subscription for Telecom Paper, Netherlands?
http://www.telecom.paper.nl/site/new...ract&id=222900

"BT prepares fresh trials of Phorm targeted online ad system
Telecom Paper (subscription), Netherlands - 31 minutes ago
BT hopes this will allow it to exploit the online ad market. Speaking at the company's AGM, BT Retail head Gavin Patterson said that customers would again ..."

Where are the UK press?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The only piece of news I found about the AGM was on FT.com

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/18e53b76-5...nclick_check=1

No mention of Phorm or the protest though. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The morning after the AGM

:welcome:

Just to repeat last night's welcome to any BT shareholders or staff here for the first time having heard about Phorm/Webwise at the AGM yesterday. I won't repeat last night's post - but if you go here
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post11849.html
you will find a user friendly list of weblinks to sites that can tell you a lot more about Phorm/Webwise.
There is also a dedicated thread at the BT Beta forums here
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ISP review has a news story on the AGM protest but it was published before the event.

They have also picked up on the story that the EU has Threatened UK with European Court Over Phorm Failings (Just added to Digg)
A footnote to this story states that a summary of yesterdays anti-Phorm protest outside BT's Annual General Meeting is available on nodpi.org

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone want a job on the inside.

Vacancy Title: Senior Information Officer (SIO) - Office for Security and Counter Terrorism

Location(s): London

Reference: 4578
Department: Home Office
Salary: £35543 - £41809

Brief description: The Office for Security and Counter Terrorism (OSCT) was set up in 2007 to bring greater coherence and drive to the Government's aim to reduce the risk to the UK and its interests overseas from international terrorism. The OSCT is also responsible for overseeing the delivery of the Government's counter terrorism objectives through partnership with a range of Government departments and other agencies.

The IMP which sits within OSCT has been established by the Home Office in response to the rapidly changing communications environment and in particular the move toward Internet Protocol (IP) based networks. The IMP has been set up to deliver a programme which will maintain the UK's capability to obtain and exploit Lawful Intercept (LI) product and Communications Data (CD) during and beyond the change over from circuit-switched to IP based networks. The programme is a major, multi year undertaking incorporating the efforts of a broad community of stakeholders.
It will also be utilising a range of new technologies and techniques.



Working Arrangement(s): Full Time, Job Share, Part Time Closing Date: 4 August 2008 More Information:

http://careers.civil-service.gov.uk/...ideDocID=42392


Maybe the FOI HO respsonse might shed some light on the whole phorm/HO speculated involement.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is why they don't have anyone decent doing this stuff within government - they pay crap wages.

No offence meant to anyone who's trade doesn't reach these levels, but I would have thought they would have to double that amount in the private sector to get someone worth their salt.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT to begin further trials of ad technology

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34c59420-5...077b07658.html

"Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also run trials."

A misinformed journalist perhaps or is there more to it?

"Gavin Patterson, head of BT Retail, told the group’s annual general meeting that customers would again have to opt-in for the service." (my bold emphasis)

Isn't this more deliberate misinformation? The previous trials were not opt in... they didn't even have an opt out!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe someone can phone up the press offices for the other ISP and ask them outright about the trials refered to in the FT article.


any takers on that, maybe someone could get el Reg to call them up?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It seems that article is full of mis-information.
Remember that the Financial Times have expressed interest in joining the OIX.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

www.phorm.com seems to be down. Can anyone confirm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Confirmed....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh dear - more errors

"BT will begin further trials in the next few weeks" - they've been saying that since March. Care to name the day? As the song goes, "For Gavin's sake, get me to the trials on time"

"Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also run trials." - really? How interesting. I'm sure the ICO and the customers would like to know about that. Perhaps even VM and CPW would like to know too.Or were you referring to small scale intranet "lab trials" and hoping we were asleep?

"customers would again have to opt-in for the service." - when did customers ever get the chance to opt-IN previously? They never even had the chance to opt-OUT. They just got snooped on covertly. so let's ignore that FALSE UNTRUTHFUL word "again" shall we Gavin? Let's admit the truth and say the last time you did a trial it was COVERT, and the customers not only didn't get asked for consent, when they DID contact BT, they got told porkies. (ask Stephen Mainwaring)

"He added that the Information Commissioner had also cleared the technology of breaching data laws."

- Really?

Which Information Commissioner was that?

The one who said that there had probably been a "technical" breach? I don't remember any Information Commissioner giving the covert trials a clean bill of health on the area of legality. In fact he said, in a letter to BT on 30th May 2008 (part of the FOI bundlefrom Dephormation's request)

"Whilst it does appear likely that a technical breach of the requirements of the Regulations occurred in the 2006 and 2007 trials, there is no evidence to suggest significant detriment to the individuals involved." (and Stepeh Mainwaring's evidence as to his having suffered significant detriment is now with the ICO and police)

Come on Gavin. Start taking some truth pills. This sort of statement from a highly paid BT exec is nothing short of disgraceful. Talk about "economical with the truth". It's downright stingy. It certainly won't wash in the police interviews.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tracing to www.phorm.com yup busted.

Had to remove the first couple of hops as it would identify my workplace.


EDIT: Just spoken to gyron it seem they have no problems with their network, well no MSO's . so maybe phorm have taken the boxes offline for some reason.

I didn't try any social engineering to dig further as that would be wrong

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and webwise.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So phorm can't keep a single static web site up. It doesn't give me much faith in there ability to look after millions of internet connections. If phorm's kit in the isp goes down you can bet your entire net connection will go down with it (probably even if you are not opted in).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

<Wishful thinking>
Maby Phorm is Closing up Shop. :D
</Wishful thinking>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And the BT-Webwise sites also down (the ones run by Phorm but that BT say don't get any of our PII)
http://webwise.bt.com/

(except for the mirror on BT's own system, at
http://www.productsandservices.bt.co...=CON-WEBWISE-I
which I think BT may have forgotten is there
(I love the end of that domain name!! - CON-WEBWISE)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

same, but I was thinking raid by ICO/Police..

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quick check of some of the co-hosted domains

webwise.bt.com, www.webwise.com, www.phorm.com, all down

Also the 'cookie serving' domain a.webwise.net, I'm seeing nothing in response to ping.

Curious. Perhaps they don't want BT shareholders to see?

I wonder if the USA 'mirror' site (in PSInet) is still here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another 121Media/Phorm re-branding exercise, maybe?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now that would make my Day. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They're back

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And they're better - they're more glitzy - they've got more spin!
And they've got logos on again - well - 2 anyway, TalkTalk and BT.
It's a relaunch?

Now does this mean that the ISP's have given Kent the go ahead to put their logos back, or is he doing what he's done before - paddling his own canoe and hoping the ISP's will swim along in his rather turbulent PR wake?

Second - I got my first new poster on BT Beta Forums as a result of all your efforts yesterday. She's furious!! (with BT, not you lot!)

Third - as predicted yesterdays late sales coming through - £700K's worth at 714.55p, well below what the small purchases were yesterday and today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think theres been a change to the Source on webwise.bt.com, anyone confirm this?

---

anomaly 2:

Just typed phorm.com, and it loaded as http://bt.phorm.com/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did you mean WHOIS and hosting etc. ?

Here's my results

webwise.bt.com resolves to IP 89.145.112.32

That has WHOIS of

% Information related to '89.145.112.0 - 89.145.113.255'

inetnum: 89.145.112.0 - 89.145.113.255
netname: G-CUS-PH02
descr: Phorm IPv4 Assignment
country: GB
admin-c: GAT1-RIPE
tech-c: GAT1-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: GYRON-MNT
mnt-lower: GYRON-MNT
mnt-routes: GYRON-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

role: Gyron Admin Team
address: Gyron Internet Ltd
address: 6 Greenwich View Place
address: Millharbour
address: LONDON
address: E14 9NN
phone: +44 (0) 845 888 6900
fax-no: +44 (0) 845 888 6910
abuse-mailbox: abuse@gyron.net
admin-c: RB30-RIPE
tech-c: RB30-RIPE
tech-c: OB924-RIPE
tech-c: BPM1-RIPE
nic-hdl: GAT1-RIPE
remarks: Please use this contact in preference to any others
remarks: that may be listed in the RIPE database
source: RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '89.145.64.0/18AS29017'

route: 89.145.64.0/18
descr: GYRON-AGG Gyron Internet Ltd AS29017
origin: AS29017
mnt-by: GYRON-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

************

and for bt.phorm.com - same IP as webwise.bt.com and the WHOIS on bt.phorm.com is

Administrative Contact:

Cote, Chris chris.cote@phorm.com

Phorm, Inc.

264 W. 40th St., 16th Floor

New York, New York 10018

United States

2123592030 Fax --



Technical Contact:

Clark, Allan allan.clark@phorm.com

Phorm, Inc

264 W40 Street

16th Floor

New York, New York 10018

United States

2123592030 Fax --



Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.PHORM.COM

NS2.PHORM.COM

NS3.PHORM.COM

NS4.PHORM.COM

NS5.PHORM.COM

NS6.PHORM.COM

When I put phorm.com in my browser, I get sent to http://www.phorm.com/ and not to bt.phorm.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So they took the servers off line to update the content? Very professional :rolleyes:

The advertising sub-domain site doesn't look too pretty either:

http://advertising.phorm.com/

edit: Seems to be a problem with firefox - possibly related to caching of style sheets or something similar.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Warning!!! Do not follow the actions below unless you are an IT Professional with the relevant experience. The site that the actions will lead to may compromise your PC.

Right guys, I have found a blog belonging to the Phorm Comms Team. For those in the know, type blog.phorm.com into robtex - you will notice that the IP is one of Phorms.

Visiting http://blog.phorm.com is not an issue. However, visiting by IP flags a serious security alert with Norton.

(To mods: The site is in the public domain - and this is not given bad advice, on the contrary it is alerting users to a potential risk, which may be nothing knowing norton)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In terms of giving share holders an education on the subject that is a massive vindication, well done!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The PIA has been finished I understand, will it be published now ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now slightly closer to being correct:

"Carphone Warehouse’s Talk Talk and Virgin Media have also agreed to evaluate the service but are yet to run trials."

What about the print edition though? I suspect the original version may have had something to do with todays share price rise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Baroness Miller thinks it should be published on the Phorm site in the near future... no show so far.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps they tried to upload the PIA earlier but the webserver couldn't handle that much bad news which caused it to crash.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Article in question has still "NOT" been corrected properly the last paragraph states the ICO cleared then of wrong doing (effectively the 2006-2007 trial)
This is not true ICO said "technical breach".
ICO doesn't have enough power to prosecute is the real reason!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quite - the full (?) list of errors is here
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post11934.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very true. At least it was a step in the right direction. I've corrected my post. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:) If its that bad for them I think they will just conveniently forget they still have the interim version posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.8020thinking.com

Anyone else getting no pages?

UPDATE: Looks like a networks/routing/ISP issue round here. 8020 site is up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I tried using the contact us page to ask phorm when the PIA would be published. However, when I clicked the submit button it did nothing. Perhaps something to do with me claiming to be a Mr First Last with telephone number 0555 555 5555.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

Works fine for me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At least someone's turning up the heat!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...v=rss_business

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Strictly speaking, from a non technical understanding of the previous 800 pages and other things I have read while Safari is compatible, Safari screams and shouts and warns the user of all the 307 redirects going on (after all they could be phishing attacks) and makes Phormed browsing such an unpleasant and intrusive experience that Phorm decided to not intercept flow with x-safari or whatever it is in the browser description.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT AGM Questions posted:

http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperfor.../Questions.htm

I wouldn't get too excited though. The only relevant bit is as follows:

Webwise

Several questions were raised concerning BT’s proposed use of the technology of Phorm Inc., a US based software company, particularly over the nature of early technical trials conducted. Several members of the Board responded to these questions. They explained that BT and other companies have announced an agreement with Phorm to offer a free internet service, called Webwise. This provides protection against fraudulent websites and offers more relevant advertising based on sites that customers visit and the topics that they search for. In a competitive market this is a good commercial opportunity for BT. Two technical trials have already taken place, before which BT took legal advice. Another trial is due to begin shortly and customers will be free to choose if they wish to participate in it.

I leave it as an excercise for the reader to spot all of the errors and omissions in that bit of spin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's good of them isn't it. So if Phorm has similar technology, they could also. Of course we all know that they wouldn't don't we, after all, that would just not be British to do so.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something I haven't seen mentioned is how would in be possible to uniquely identify an individual browser/user without a cookie on that system especially also if the user normally surfs without scripting enabled!

Even when sharing a UID with phorm, could the system identify a Single Browser/Session or only the Account Holders UID?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think someone needs to rewrite their hymsheet! Since they stopped "engaging" the public you very much get the feeling they are just putting their fingers in their ears and wishing it would all just go away!

http://209.85.12.234/3776/92/emo/lalala.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:shocked: Blatant omission, well at least it will be obvious to all newly aware shareholders. Dephormed comments to follow no doubt ....

Reference Safari screaming 307 re-directs, could Firefox be modified to perform the same?, just wondering if the developers would appreciate a heads up for such (hopefully not) future technologies this feature could be popular for them also.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If there are any BT shareholders who are reading this and don't feel the AGM summary regarding Webwise is accurate or complete, feel free to send in feedback:

'We welcome feedback on the AGM and live webcast. Please email btgroup@bt.com and insert 'AGM feedback' in the subject line.'

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

By the way, if anyone here hasn't already done so, please notify the Anti-Phishing WorkGroup:

http://www.antiphishing.org/index.html

...which is linked to from the Phorm website, and tell them that you think it is inappropriate for an unethical spyware company to be a sponsor of the APWG. (http://www.antiphishing.org/sponsors.html)

Email one of the following email addresses:

Press inquiries:

pressrequest@antiphishing.org

Other general questions:

info@antiphishing.org

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Questions were raised, few answers received, particulary the question asking if Gavin Patterson authorised the trials.

In a competitive market, shooting both of your own feet off with your own shotgun is suicidal, not sound business planning, and not a good commercial opportunity to exploit.

For the truth about BT and Webwise visit the Inphormationdesk.

For the full story about the questions; see here.

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

Mr Ryles, you missed this one

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting article - and there is a photo of the protest :)

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...ing-trials.htm

edit:

That's interesting as in it has some good and some not-so good aspects. I quite like this bit:

"Protesters said BT had conducted at least two secret trials, in 2006 and 2007, that involved up to 350,000 customers, a figure BT did not deny at the AGM"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ahh thanks Deko my mistake ,should have checked dates lol as was bit surprised to see the link as i try to stay away from the webwise site as much as possible and only go in with the highest amount of protection as is technically possible as you never know which type of Russian flu you might pick up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they need to correct the article it says

Where as it should be opt-in no leway just opt-in with the option to opt-out if you change your mind.


@Azreal , welcome but that is the old Interim PIA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the link by rryles in computer weekly

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...ing-trials.htm

BT's plans to test an online advertising delivery service based on customers' use of the internet is likely to go ahead "within weeks" despite a protest at the telco's AGM yesterday.

BT Retail chief Gavin Patterson said he was thinking of publishing the results of market research that he said showed 96% of consumers were happy with the service

Guess he hasnt seen this one lol from the nodpi site

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/38754/...aten+ISPs.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just tried the Windows version of Safari with a "simulation" of a triple 307 redirect via webwise.net, it didn't complain and happily accepted the webwise.net UID cookie.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if this has been posted, but it seems the EC has decided that if the government doesn't act about Phorm, they will. They do not object to Phorm as such, but they *do* require it to be opt in, rather than opt out.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...uk_over_phorm/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Confirmed. :mad:

Can anyone confirm what the latest list of phorm domains and sub domains is now? I want to block (hosts) every one of their ******* sites if I can.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i'm not seeing that problem if i type phorm.com i get www.phorm.com from work

Just tried from a NTL leased line (yeah i know) get www.phorm.com

Also tried from a plus.net adsl @ home I get www.phorm.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same here - is it only BT users who get bt.phorm.com?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope, I get that site on PlusNet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm... must be something to do with both resolving to the same address - 89.145.112.32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

By IP I get www.phorm.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wouldn't make any difference, you can have multiple different web sites at the same address just with different domain names!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yup its called host header redirection methinks to allow multiple domains/sites on one IP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also now see bt.phorm.com resolves to same IP as phorm.com

but in addition not sure how significant though:-
www.bt.phorm.net
bt.phorm.net

which resolves to 209.59.187.150 ????

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:50 ----------

same as [phorm.net]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You all missed the really meaty result of the AGM protest which was the debate about the covert trials in HoL today!!!

http://www.publications.parliament.u...ldtoday/02.htm

BRAVO BARONESS MILLER AND EARL OF NORTHESK (PLUS VARIOUS OTHER PEERS).

Furthermore, HAPPY BIRTHDAY BARONESS MILLER!

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Superb ;)

Btw, we might need to be more cautious about the strategy of protest by physical attendance if we're to avoid the possibility of gifting the opposition with PR opportunities. There are a multitude of very valid reasons why people cannot attend events and we wouldn't want any correlation implied between turn out and the true opposition to webwise.

It might be better to describe attendees at future events as a delegation that represents thousands of internet users?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its very rare for a war to be won on the first battle. We have come a long way and made a big impact. The petition, home office, ICO, EU, BT shareholders, BT Directors, VM, TT and loads more I am sure we could all add to represent people who would not know if not for us.
The emotional and personal attacts on us by inversters and others shows we have made a difference.
The next target I suggest is the mainstream press.
Maybe we can get some of the big retailers concerned. I have written to Tesco's & Sainsbury's many more to choose from.
Retailers have a vested interest in keeping their customers their customers, not in allowing their customers browsing habits being passed to their compeditors.

Just a few thoughts.

Also it was good to put faces to people yesterday, hope to see you all again.

Regards

Chris

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm can try and spin the protest any way they wish, it won't change the fact that over a thousand new people are now aware and angry about BT's plans. It won't change the fact that the EU Commission are very likely to use the EU Court if the UK Authorities don't act against Phorm and BT for the covert trials. It won't change the fact that 65% of British broadband users would leave their ISP if they deploy Phorm or similar behavioural advertising methods. And it certainly won't change the fact that Phorm are $850 million USD worse off as a result of their lies and actions.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suppose again, strictly speaking ;), (and correct me again if I am wrong) while Phorm may have decided at the time not to intercept flow, initially to avoid the redirect issues for Safari browsers and therefore not serve the adverts, the data itself is still intercepted (as it effectively still in-line).

The difference being is that they are inasmuch simulating an opt out scenario.

It is my understanding that there is still nothing theoretically and technically speaking that could stop Phorm copying everything that is going on in that particular browsing session for whatever reason. Unless Opt out totally avoids Phorm's equipment altogether at account level we are relying purely on trust that this does not and will not occur.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firstly, Happy Birthday to Baroness Miller. We thank you for your interest and support!

Secondly, can someone please refer/remind me of the statement by the ICO(?) that Phorm needs to 'allay customer concerns' and 'engage with the public' regarding its technology?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We do indeed thank Baroness Miller et al. If we are going by the HOL proceedings, however, it is Baroness Gardner of Parkes who has a birthday today.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who attended the gathering, everyone who supported it with posters etc, and everyone who donated to the costs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ahhhhh my mistake, I just totally confused Richard her researcher on that too lol.

Well happy birthday to Baroness Gardner then ;)

I just got off the phone with Baroness Miller's researcher and asked him relay the thanks of everyone who attended the event and also the wider public group campaigning against this technology.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are possibly a lot of persons such as myself who witnessed their browser hijack and the clicking as it was redirected and complained to BT as I did even got PIN num for tech help in UK but ended up formatting PC's for fear of virus that could not be removed but as the help desk new nothing we did not know that this was BT carrying out covert trials with Phorm/Webwise.We are the agrieved here where is our protection from BT and Phorm thuggery even now My surfing habits have changed and the enjoyment of the net has been taken from myself and many others,Isnt it a wonder we are very angry with our ISP's,so why are we continualy painted as the bad guys in this ,remeber Kent data collection stores your past record and not one person here put you up to your data theft and previous Rootkits Etc Etc. Come on ICO and Police protect the public from serial offenders all we want is privacy and justice.

from a very unhappy BT customer Bob aka Tarquin G Loombreaker-smythe

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

did i read the HOL right they need a test case in court?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't get bt.phorm.com and I'm on BT

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

D'you know I feel moved. I might even write to the Baroness again since she has gone far further than I asked of her. And hats off to those who made the London event and to Alexander again... That Lord's record above is truly recognition of the efforts of you and all.

Much still to do! I'll report on our chief constable's response to my report of the bt activity soon I hope. Sent recorded delivery to ensure if understands I consider it important enough.

To echo what's been said already... And for the record, anyone pro Phorm / Webwise who thinks my lack of adding to the numbers in London is a sign of disinterest: wrong!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm in a rush - but does what the HO minister said about no contacts prior to... pan out with what is in Dephormation's FOI bundles on Counter Terrorism unit contacts about Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would appear to be the case yes.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My bad, someone else corrected earlier, it is to do with Safari handling of third party cookies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A test case in court Alexander? I wonder if anyone has given the police enough evidence to hand to the CPS and get that going already. Either in London or in a county elsewhere. Interesting.