Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I think you're shifting onto slightly new ground there. Are you saying that there comes a point where fundamentalism and extremism are essentially the same thing?

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

Thank you for your use of 'probably'. In fact, if you read the Gospels and become familiar with them, and especially with Jesus' style of teaching, it is blindingly obvious when he's using parables and when he's not. Even on the occasions when the text doesn't say, "and Jesus gave this parable...", which it most often does.

Jesus' teaching was mostly confined to certain basic, dare I say fundamental themes, with the more complex theology left to the apostles to bring afterwards. Again, if you allow yourself to become familiar with the entirety of the gospels these themes become clear enough because Jesus' teaching is consistent. That guards against the 'different slants' you talk about.

It doesn't make them impossible to fall into, but it certainly guards against them. Bear in mind that there is overwhelming agreement, even between Protestant, Catholic and Eastern Christian movements, about the basics of the Christian message and what is necessary for a person to be 'saved'. If it were as easy as you seem to believe for different, competing teachings to arise, then this would not be the case.

Sorry, but I'm not indulging your obsession with the theoretical wrath of a god you don't believe in this evening. We've been round in circles on that point many times already. ;) Besides, I've already touched on the subject of national judgement and punishment earlier in this thread.
I think you would have to find an extremist and ask him. :)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

You brought it up Chris, mentioning that it was wrong to attribute that passage to what followers should do because it was reserved for your god to perform.
However, fundementalists, and even people like yourself are versed enough on the bible to know that it states that on several occasions your god used followers to enforce his wrath.

As for being concerned over the plans and instructions given by a deity which I don't believe in, I ask you this; Do you believe Allah exists?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Yep i agree time to unsubscribe from this thread as well it is like the M$ and Apple rants you can never have a debate as there is always some entrenched belief of being right.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Seriously Chris, what alternative "characters and situations" representative of "other things" could Jesus possibly have been referring to in that particular parable?

That particular parable is anything but a complex allegory - quite simply Jesus states that anyone who does not acknowledge him as their ruler should be brought to him (at whatever place he was at that time) and slain.

Black and white, advocating violence and slaughter - no complex allegory either used nor required.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not shifting onto new ground. I have been saying all along that religious fundamentalism can lead to religious extremism. You cannot exhibit extremism without first being a fundamentalist ( I believe) and at that point you are both...
The 'good' bishop is heading towards that end of the scale....imo

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I'm not trying to make out that it is complex allegory. If you re-read what I posted, you will see that I am saying that parables are not complex allegory because that would defeat their purpose.

The parable has a very simple meaning, and it is this:

The place Jesus is 'at the time' the parable speaks of, as you put it, is enthroned as king at the end of the age.

The passage begins in verse 11 by saying Jesus told the parable because people thought he was going to Jerusalem to set up his kingdom right there and then. Jesus, in verse 12, makes clear that these things are to take place after he has gone away and come back again.

At that point - after Jesus has gone away and come back again - there is judgement and banishment from God's presence in store for those who don't belong to him. In the parable this is depicted as being put to death before a king.

There really is nothing contentious about it. The fact that there will be judgement at the end of the age in no way affects the call for Jesus disciples here and now to be peaceful and non-violent.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

I wonder whether you consider your own beliefs to be entrenched?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The bishop fundamentally believes that God brings 'punishment' to ill-doers and to people who disregard his commandments. There are accounts in both the Bible and the Koran of this happening. So I think all he is doing is re-iterating/preaching what he (and as have countless of people ) read in the Bible, and what he believes in. I do not thing that is extreme. Im sure it happens in Churches all the time as it does in Mosques over the world.

Now in this instance his audience has been Christians and non christians alike, and some non CHristians have taken offence. I can see the point that both Russ & Chris have made, if you don't believe in it why would you get upset by it. Yes the bishop is blaming gays for the floods but he's reciting his fundamental belives. He's not saying that gays should be shot/killed/stoned etc etc etc. All he is saying is that this is what the Bible says. Should we ban the bible? or Just ban people from reciting it in public (which Im sure would contradict how Jesus wanted Christianity to spread).

If you take a wander down Croydon on a saturday you will sometimes see a couple of tables put up where young muslim men selling books based on verses/passages from the Koran. Read a few of these and there will be articles on the punishment in the hereafter for gays/adulterors/non belivers of God/Idol worshippers etc etc. A lot will also be citing 100s of natural distasters as 'God's punishment'. Most people walk straight past because they don't believe in it. They simply see it as a trio of nutters preaching some religion that has nothing to do with them so they dont bother getting upset. The only people that take stock of whats said is muslims.

All I'm trying to say is that if you dont believe in it I dont see any need to get upset by it. Its not like people in liberal Britain will suddenly make homosexuality illegal, or start to attack or blame homosexuals/non believers for natural calamities. We're not living in the Dark Ages are we? It's more likely that the Church will lose some more credibility amongst the 'non-believers' which will work against it in the long run. (This problem of spreading religion without losing credibility also occurs in Islam)

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I don't believe in Allah, but I still get upset when people kill others in his name.
I don't believe in god, but I still get upset when people say they believe his slaughtering of non-christians is good.

Am I wrong to get upset at the call from certain muslims to murder people in the west?
Should I just shrug my shoulders when I think of those who died in the 9/11 attacks and say "oh well, never mind, it's not like I believe allah exists"

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Is that what I said, its definately not how i meant to come across as saying...... The line you quoted is embedded in a paragraph relating to what the bishop said. He has not advocated killing of anyone, my point being what he's said will not climax in this happening. He's not being extremist either, in my opinion.

Now I believe in Allah/God and I was upset at 9/11 and the tube bombings and Madrid and Bali and I will continue to get upset at future such acts. I am just trying to say that in the context of whats been said (by the Bishop) I dont think its such a big deal.

Now if he said that we should go and kill all gays just incase the next flood wipes us all out, then thats a bit different, and my stance would be different. I am trying to say that we shouldn't label all fundamental followers of religion as extremists.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Unfortunately, religious extremists don't need to be told directly to kill or even just be prejudice against others, they just need someone in religious authority to meet them half way.
Say "giving gays more rights has caused the flooding" is a red flag to a bull to give nutters the justification to discriminate against gays for instance (and to the extreme, harm homosexuals in the name of their religion).

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

I do understand what you're saying. Maybe he thought that there aren't any christian nutters in the UK that would go out killing gays based on his religion's viewpoint.

The problem then becomes what do you preach from the Bible? only that which is deemed to be politically correct and non offensive to certain groups. This in turn leads us back full circle, where if that becomes the case then we are admitting that religion is wrong/not applicable.

This argument has been raging on for centuries, I dont think we will get any answers from the Cable Forum.... do you?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Throughout society a minority of irresponsible people have always caused activities to be curtailed to the detriment of the majority who participate.
Apply the same rules to religions with unacceptable content.
If this upsets a deity, then so be it.
Is it worth worshiping a deity who sanctions discrimination and murder?

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

Seeing as our legal system recognises the possibility of both lawful and unlawful killing, I think it's fair to ask in what way you believe the killing of a person by God to be 'unlawful' ... murder, of course, being unlawful killing rather than simply the act of taking another life.

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

A level headed piont of view, one that the worlds muslims could perhaps take on board in their dealings with faiths other than their own :D
It's all very well saying not to get upset by someones misguided ramblings but unfortunately that bishop has influence over the thoughts and possibly deeds of many christians.
This is even more worrying when you consider the massively greater influence that muslim religious leaders seem to have have over the thoughts and deeds of their flocks...
Despite my deep distrust of religion I feel that it can be a force for the good if applied moderately. Blaming a part of our population for the floods is not however moderate....I'm surprise that he hasn't been cautioned by the police (but then i suppose he didn't call a police horse 'gay') :disturbd:

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

And there is the central problem of religion these days (apart from circular arguments to 'prove' the existence of god and it's pathetic attempts at creationism)
It is increasingly being demonstrated to be a negative force in the world.
Take various pronouncements on condoms, female circumcision, burning widows, anti gay views, masturbation, freedom of women, suppression of other religions and destruction of historical works of art.
Historically, religion has been a major damper on scientific discovery. From anatomy to medicine to physics to astronomy; religion has proven itself to be a massive negative force....

Re: Floods are a judgement on society, say bishops
 

The lawful status of a death doesn't come into it, it's the morality.
For instance, it's been lawful to kill a Welshman inside the limits of certain cities after sunset with a longbow, but it doesn't make such a killing moral.
It also doesn't have to be a death, using religion to justify prejudice against others is a more widespread issue.