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-   -   Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712196)

Pierre 08-12-2023 21:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166252)
The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution on a ceasefire. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.
Just seen that flash up on my device, so haven’t read any detail.

That said, a UN resolution is meaningless in a practical sense.

Israeli is free to ignore it.

The UN is a joke and should probably be dissolved, if Russia can sit as a permanent member of the security council, whilst destabilising security in Europe and the wider world. Why would you take any notice of the UN?

1andrew1 08-12-2023 21:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166252)
The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire and the immediate, unconditional release of all hostages. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.
Disappointing. When push came to shove, Biden bottled it.

In other news
Quote:
Palestinian Authority and US work up postwar plan for Gaza

Palestinian premier Mohammad Shtayyeh favours junior role for Hamas in future state-building efforts

The Palestinian Authority is working with US officials on a plan to run Gaza once the war between Israel and Hamas is over, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh has said.

Shtayyeh said he did not think Israel could destroy Hamas and that his preferred solution was for Hamas to become a junior partner in the umbrella Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) and help build an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

“If [Hamas] are ready to come to an agreement and accept the political platform of the PLO, then there will be room for talk. Palestinians should not be divided,” Shtayyeh said in an interview with Bloomberg.

“We need to put together a mechanism, something we’re working on with the international community. There will be huge needs in terms of relief and reconstruction to remedy the wounds.”

US officials have been pushing for the PA, which exercises limited self-rule in parts of the occupied West Bank and also ruled Gaza until it was driven out by Hamas in 2007, to play a key role in governing postwar Gaza, and have floated the idea of an international force helping to manage security in the enclave for an interim period.

However, Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the idea of the PA being involved in Gaza’s postwar governance, and ruled out accepting an international peacekeeping force in the enclave, insisting only Israeli forces could ensure his country’s security.
https://www.ft.com/content/5d7c4c62-...8-97ad8591b7a3

jfman 08-12-2023 21:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166253)
Just seen that flash up on my device, so haven’t read any detail.

That said, a UN resolution is meaningless in a practical sense.

Israeli is free to ignore it.

The UN is a joke and should probably be dissolved, if Russia can sit as a permanent member of the security council, whilst destabilising security in Europe and the wider world. Why would you take any notice of the UN?
Likewise America has been in one war or another since its inception destabilising Governments in countries on almost every continent (including democratically elected ones in Europe).

I agree it’s of limited meaning or value, but it shows that the Israeli position is increasing isolated on the world stage, and in all probability reduces the time that the United States are likely to continue to permit their ongoing military crusade in the absence of any clear, achievable and defined goals.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166254)
Disappointing. When push came to shove, Biden bottled it.

In other news

https://www.ft.com/content/5d7c4c62-...8-97ad8591b7a3
The message is out there to all the emerging economies of the Middle East, North Africa and the global south. China and Russia will be rubbing their hands at the soft power opportunities going forward.

1andrew1 08-12-2023 21:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166255)
Likewise America has been in one war or another since its inception destabilising Governments in countries on almost every continent (including democratically elected ones in Europe).

I agree it’s of limited meaning or value, but it shows that the Israeli position is increasing isolated on the world stage, and in all probability reduces the time that the United States are likely to continue to permit their ongoing military crusade in the absence of any clear, achievable and defined goals.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------



The message is out there to all the emerging economies of the Middle East, North Africa and the global south. China and Russia will be rubbing their hands at the soft power opportunities going forward.
Exactly. And where's Putin been recently?

Putin makes rare trip to Middle East to meet with UAE and Saudi leaders

jfman 08-12-2023 21:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166257)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gaza-ceasefire

This part made me laugh:

Quote:
The US for its part is furious that Guterres raised the crisis in such a dramatic fashion, and feel he has played into the hands of Russia and China by damaging US standing with the so-called global south.
Perhaps America would improve it’s standing in the global south by not adopting a policy that, at face value, could be easily portrayed by it’s enemies as valuing the lives of Jews in Israel above Muslims in Palestine.

Russia can, unfortunately, easily draw parallels with the situation in Ukraine and point out that America is no arbiter of moral fairness. If, and it remains an if at this point, the USA sell out Ukraine as a price worth paying for their military industrial complex to redirect resources into the Middle East that will cause further friction.

It’d be inevitable European countries will ask themselves if the price that they have paid economically to support a cause America dropped on a whim was worth it.

I dread to think the potential consequences for politics in European countries with sizeable Muslim minorities or Ukrainian refugees.

TheDaddy 09-12-2023 16:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166218)

Another swerve from you.

Had Hamas carried out a different type of attack, with no barbarity, might not Israel's retaliation have been different and of lower consequences for the Gazan population.

My 'enough is enough' observation is spot on.
Another swerve, coming from the guy who still hasn't answered Russ' question at aprox the 300th time of asking and the reason you can't answer his question is because you don't know what you're talking about, much like here if you think your observation is spot on, my observation is people don't think you're up to discussing this like an adult and therefore have stopped engaging with you on it, I think I'll join them

Sephiroth 09-12-2023 22:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The notion that Hamas should be a junior partner in the umbrella organisation of the PLO is strange, particularly as the PLO Premier is talking about 'state building'. I note that this isn't a stated view from the US side.

Israel will remain the occupying power and they will not (imo) countenance any role for Hamas. In particular, it is possible that Israel will not have eliminated Hamas at the eventual ceasefire point.

Also, seeing that Iran is Hamas' puppet master, this dimension will play into Israel's decisions on the governance of Gaza.

However, there is more from a non-paywalled source with in depth analysis. The Palestinian PM makes a valid point, seen from here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-plan-for-gaza

Quote:
Asked why Israel can’t eliminate Hamas, Shtayyeh said: “Hamas is in Lebanon, everybody knows Hamas leadership is in Qatar and they are here in the West Bank.”



jfman 09-12-2023 23:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166307)
Israel will remain the occupying power
And if they don’t adhere to their responsibilties remain a legitimate military target for the Palestinian people in which ever form they decide to mobilise.

I’m sure when that inevitably means Israeli civilian casualties the forum will coalesce around the established position of “war, innit?”.

Pierre 09-12-2023 23:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166307)
Israel will remain the occupying power
Israel is not an occupying power.

The West Bank issue aside, and I don’t agree with Israel’s actions there.

Other than that, Israel does not occupy anyone.

Sephiroth 09-12-2023 23:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166310)
Israel is not an occupying power.

The West Bank issue aside, and I don’t agree with Israel’s actions there.

Other than that, Israel does not occupy anyone.
That's Israel's claim.

The USA says otherwise:

https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-r...d-territories/

Quote:
The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), with the division of responsibilities overlapping in much of the territory.

Pierre 09-12-2023 23:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
The West Bank as I state, yes. Gaza has been free of Israeli occupation since 2005, and before Israel took it, it was part of Egypt.

But that’s semantics, the term occupiers, has been levelled at Israel for existing, that’s what I object to.

Palestine doesn’t exist, has never existed, you can’t occupy something that doesn’t exist.

Paul 09-12-2023 23:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166311)
The USA says otherwise:
Well clearly they appear to be wrong. If Gaza was already "occupied" then Israel would not have had to move into it again after the Oct 7th Hamas events (indeed, they probably wish they had still occupied it, as those events would likely not have happened).

jfman 10-12-2023 00:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Ouch!

---------- Post added 10-12-2023 at 00:00 ---------- Previous post was 09-12-2023 at 23:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166314)
Well clearly they appear to be wrong. If Gaza was already "occupied" then Israel would not have had to move into it again after the Oct 7th Hamas events (indeed, they probably wish they had still occupied it, as those events would likely not have happened).
More inclined to believe the United States Government than someone on an internet forum tbf.

One suspects their definition of “occupied” is more robust than the selective interpretations we see on here to absolve Israel of its humanitarian responsibilities. A damning indictment of the views of some on here as to whether Palestinians have humanitarian rights at all.

1andrew1 10-12-2023 00:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166307)

However, there is more from a non-paywalled source with in depth analysis. The Palestinian PM makes a valid point, seen from here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-plan-for-gaza
That's an interesting find that makes sense.

Also Sky News is saying that the US will countenance Israel's invasion until the end of the year but Israel wants longer.
https://news.sky.com/story/the-clock...ution-13026178
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
More inclined to believe the United States Government than someone on an internet forum tbf.

One suspects their definition of “occupied” is more robust than the selective interpretations we see on here to absolve Israel of its humanitarian responsibilities. A damning indictment of the views of some on here as to whether Palestinians have humanitarian rights at all.
Yes, it's about the definition. Discussed here. The article lists a selection of bodies who categorise Gaza as being occupied and notes
Quote:
While they acknowledge that Israel no longer had the traditional marker of effective control after the disengagement—a military presence—they hold that with the help of technology, it has maintained the requisite control in other ways.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...rnational-law/

jfman 10-12-2023 00:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166319)
That's an interesting find that makes sense.

Also Sky News is saying that the US will countenance Israel's invasion until the end of the year but Israel wants longer.
https://news.sky.com/story/the-clock...ution-13026178
More inclined to believe the United States Government than someone on an internet forum tbf.

One suspects their definition of “occupied” is more robust than the selective interpretations we see on here to absolve Israel of its humanitarian responsibilities. A damning indictment of the views of some on here as to whether Palestinians have humanitarian rights at all.
Yes, it's about the definition. Discussed here. The article lists a selection of bodies who categorise Gaza as being occupied and notes

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...rnational-law/
I’d personally take the view that anything the US says is the minimum tolerable position.

As Israel’s only ally, they will naturally push back (regardless of evidence) against claims of war crimes or ethnic cleansing, and of course the worst accusations made by Palestinians of genocide.

.

Paul 10-12-2023 03:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166321)
I’d personally take the view that anything the US says is the minimum tolerable position.
Of course, how could I forget, your view is the only one that matters. :dozey:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166321)
As Israel’s only ally, they will naturally push back
Only ally ? Based on what exactly ?

1andrew1 11-12-2023 11:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166323)
Of course, how could I forget, your view is the only one that matters. :dozey:
I don't think that jfman is stating that his opinion is the only one that matters.

ianch99 12-12-2023 19:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Even the USA are starting to wobble on backing the ongoing slaughter in Gaza:

Biden says Netanyahu must change Israel government, losing global support

Quote:
U.S. President Joe Biden said on Tuesday that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu needs to change his hardline government and that Israel cannot say no in the future to a Palestinian state, ramping up pressure on the Israelis.

Biden's remarks at a fundraising event for his 2024 re-election campaign was a further sign of growing U.S. concern at Israel's bombing in Gaza in which thousands of Palestinian civilians have been killed.

"They're starting to lose that support," Biden said, referring to the international community's alarm at the bombing.

Biden specifically mentioned Israel's far-right politician Itamar Ben-Gvir, who is Israel's national security minister, and said "this is the most conservative government in Israel's history."

"He (Netanyahu) has to change this government. This government in Israel is making it very difficult," Biden said.

He also said that ultimately Israel "can't say no" to a Palestinian state, which Israeli hardliners oppose.

Sephiroth 12-12-2023 21:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166468)
Even the USA are starting to wobble on backing the ongoing slaughter in Gaza:

Biden says Netanyahu must change Israel government, losing global support
It would be good if you, Andrew, jfman and others who only seem to have bad words for Israel, could acknowledge Israel's single minded purpose of eliminating Hamas. You should want that too - although none of us would want the civilian casualties that accompany war.

ianch99 12-12-2023 21:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166474)
It would be good if you, Andrew, jfman and others who only seem to have bad words for Israel, could acknowledge Israel's single minded purpose of eliminating Hamas. You should want that too - although none of us would want the civilian casualties that accompany war.
You mean, of course, their single minded purpose in killing civilians ... sorry, damaging collateral.

Meanwhile, back in the grown up world:

UN backs demand for immediate Gaza ceasefire

Quote:
The UN General Assembly has overwhelmingly adopted a non-binding resolution calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza.

153 member states voted in favour, 10 against and there were 23 abstentions.

Sephiroth 12-12-2023 22:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166475)
You mean, of course, their single minded purpose in killing civilians ... sorry, damaging collateral.

Meanwhile, back in the grown up world:

UN backs demand for immediate Gaza ceasefire


It's quite telling that you have doubled down on the casualties aspect without taking into account the barbaric actions of Hamas on 7-Oct. And then the condescending "grown up" remark that you needn't have made.

Why would Israel have a 'single minded purpose in killing civilians'? That's an awful thing to say. The civilians are suffering through collateral damage, which is not intentional. However it is clear that Israel's mission against Hamas comes first and collateral damage matters less to them than eliminating Hamas.

If you and those who take a similar line to yours could come from the aspect I've stated, we could have a reasonable debate. At the moment, you ignore what's driving Israel.

ianch99 13-12-2023 10:48
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166476)


It's quite telling that you have doubled down on the casualties aspect without taking into account the barbaric actions of Hamas on 7-Oct. And then the condescending "grown up" remark that you needn't have made.

Why would Israel have a 'single minded purpose in killing civilians'? That's an awful thing to say. The civilians are suffering through collateral damage, which is not intentional. However it is clear that Israel's mission against Hamas comes first and collateral damage matters less to them than eliminating Hamas.

If you and those who take a similar line to yours could come from the aspect I've stated, we could have a reasonable debate. At the moment, you ignore what's driving Israel.
So many times now, I, and others, have absolutely condemned Hamas and its actions. Are you such a pedant that every post must includes the words "and I also condemns Hamas and its barbaric actions"?

Seriously, I do not know how to respond to posts like these.

Sephiroth 13-12-2023 11:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166501)
So many times now, I, and others, have absolutely condemned Hamas and its actions. Are you such a pedant that every post must includes the words "and I also condemns Hamas and its barbaric actions"?

Seriously, I do not know how to respond to posts like these.
There is a huge gap between what you write, condemning Israel as distinct from condemning Hamas.

I know exactly what you mean: It's the question as to whether or not Israel should continue its mission in the light of the civilian deaths.

Your answer is obviously 'No'. But you are not on the receiving end of Hamas rockets; you were not involved in the barbaric murders of 1200 Israelis. From Israel's point of view, eliminating Hamas is the goal they must achieve.

Then you'll say that Hamas will never be eliminated; the next generation will rise from the ashes etc. And then you might go on to say that a political solution for 2-states must be negotiated to avoid the next catastrophe..

Well yes, you'd probably be right but the 2-state solution requires will on both sides and that includes the Ultras of Israel and the cooperation of Iran. All pigs will fly stuff.

So what will stop the Israeli military action?

1. They've captured the Hamas leaders;

2. They declare their mission accomplished. That's possible and 31-Dec looms.

3. External political pressure (and no further supply of materiel) wins the day.

I know how to answer you. I can quite see why you don't know how to answer me.

1andrew1 13-12-2023 11:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166502)
There is a huge gap between what you write, condemning Israel as distinct from condemning Hamas.

I know exactly what you mean: It's the question as to whether or not Israel should continue its mission in the light of the civilian deaths.

Your answer is obviously 'No'. But you are not on the receiving end of Hamas rockets; you were not involved in the barbaric murders of 1200 Israelis. From Israel's point of view, eliminating Hamas is the goal they must achieve.

Then you'll say that Hamas will never be eliminated; the next generation will rise from the ashes etc. And then you might go on to say that a political solution for 2-states must be negotiated to avoid the next catastrophe..

Well yes, you'd probably be right but the 2-state solution requires will on both sides and that includes the Ultras of Israel and the cooperation of Iran. All pigs will fly stuff.

So what will stop the Israeli military action?

1. They've captured the Hamas leaders;

2. They declare their mission accomplished. That's possible and 31-Dec looms.

3. External political pressure (and no further supply of materiel) wins the day.

I know how to answer you. I can quite see why you don't know how to answer me.
Cessation of support from the US and more pressure from the international community will likely end the invasion.

I think we all must also acknowledge that the method chosen by Israel to try and eliminate Hamas was chosen by some extent by the objective of keeping Netanyahu in power.

I am concerned that there is no robust plan for governing the Gaza when this happens.

Sephiroth 13-12-2023 11:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Who would want Gaza? It was Egyptian territory in 1976 and they didn't want it back.

Poor Israel, one might say. Now look what's happened.

ianch99 13-12-2023 11:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166502)
There is a huge gap between what you write, condemning Israel as distinct from condemning Hamas.

I know exactly what you mean: It's the question as to whether or not Israel should continue its mission in the light of the civilian deaths.

Your answer is obviously 'No'. But you are not on the receiving end of Hamas rockets; you were not involved in the barbaric murders of 1200 Israelis. From Israel's point of view, eliminating Hamas is the goal they must achieve.

Then you'll say that Hamas will never be eliminated; the next generation will rise from the ashes etc. And then you might go on to say that a political solution for 2-states must be negotiated to avoid the next catastrophe..

Well yes, you'd probably be right but the 2-state solution requires will on both sides and that includes the Ultras of Israel and the cooperation of Iran. All pigs will fly stuff.

So what will stop the Israeli military action?

1. They've captured the Hamas leaders;

2. They declare their mission accomplished. That's possible and 31-Dec looms.

3. External political pressure (and no further supply of materiel) wins the day.

I know how to answer you. I can quite see why you don't know how to answer me.
You have not asked a cogent question from what I can see. Maybe you should rephrase it?

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166505)
Who would want Gaza? It was Egyptian territory in 1976 and they didn't want it back.

Poor Israel, one might say. Now look what's happened.
The Palestinians, as part of their 2 state solution.

1andrew1 13-12-2023 12:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166505)
Who would want Gaza?
Obviously the Palestinians who live there as they have nowhere else to live. But without governance by the corrupt, underfunded and ineffectual Palestinian Authority or the Hamas dictatorship.

And I think some members of the more right-wing members of the current Israeli government want it too.

Paul 13-12-2023 13:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Since much of it is now demolished, whoever "wants" it is going to have to spend a lot of time & money rebuilding it (and hope its not all destroyed again).

Pierre 13-12-2023 17:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166468)
Even the USA are starting to wobble on backing the ongoing slaughter in Gaza:

Biden says Netanyahu must change Israel government, losing global support
Quote:
He also said that ultimately Israel "can't say no" to a Palestinian state, which Israeli hardliners oppose.
What if Palestinians say no to a Palestine state (whilst Israel exists) which is what they have done……repeatedly?

Sephiroth 13-12-2023 18:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166506)
You have not asked a cogent question from what I can see. Maybe you should rephrase it?

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------



The Palestinians, as part of their 2 state solution.
What 2-state solution? Do the Palestinians think that is going to happen?

That's 2x cogent questions I've asked.

Hugh 13-12-2023 18:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
You appear to be confusing "questions you’ve asked which you believe are cogent" and "cogent questions"…

Just because you believe they are cogent does not make it true…

Paul 13-12-2023 18:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Stick to the topic please, this nitpicking is getting tiresome.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

In relevant news, Israels foreign minister has stated Israel will continue the war "with or without international support".

Sephiroth 13-12-2023 19:16
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36166528)
You appear to be confusing "questions you’ve asked which you believe are cogent" and "cogent questions"…

Just because you believe they are cogent does not make it true…
Deleted by Seph. The email will suffice.

ianch99 13-12-2023 22:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166527)
What 2-state solution? Do the Palestinians think that is going to happen?

That's 2x cogent questions I've asked.
I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

Sephiroth 13-12-2023 23:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166536)
I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.

I genuinely believe that you are not thinking straight due to some form of bias.

There can be little doubt that Israel's actions include a "revenge" element. But it is not a "campaign of revenge" - it is a campaign to eliminate Hamas.

It shows some form of conscious bias that you skew your answers so as to make Israel the villain. It's all very well t say that you've already condemned Hamas; but you condemn Israel in every post and then complain when I point out how one sided you are.

Plus, of course, you have no idea on what else Israel should have done following 7-Oct's barbarism by Hamas.

Pierre 13-12-2023 23:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166536)
Israel continues their campaign of revenge.
It’s evident you have me on ignore. These words show you for who you are, what you think and that you are not in this discussion impartially or in good faith.

Which is fine.

We know now you.

TheDaddy 14-12-2023 02:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166536)
I have already posted my answer to the first question and the answer to the second is that I am guessing that most do but less over time as Israel continues their campaign of revenge.
Interesting term, revenge campaign, not sure I'd have come up with that but President Biden made a speech the other day where he said words to the effect of Israel is losing international support due to indiscriminate bombing and then a non binding vote 153 countries voted for an end to the violence with an immediate ceasefire, 12 more than what criticised Russia so strongly for invading Ukraine, so I'd say he had a point. I also see that Biden imposed new sanctions on the leaders of hamas too going after their finances but according to Sephiroth I was talking pie in the sky when suggesting that :rolleyes: as he said I was when saying hamas would take over the west bank too if they weren't stopped and guess what, support for them there is growing massively although that's not really surprising when 13 year old children are being killed there and the sick are made to wait in ambulances till they die, that's without mentioning the thousands rounded up for a bit of detention without trial and a roughing up in there no doubt, anyway back to revenge campaign, 18500 dead that we know of well over 50000 injured and thousands more buried under rubble and Israeli officials begging the world not to believe the figures, probably because they're just to horrifying

ianch99 14-12-2023 10:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166548)
Interesting term, revenge campaign, not sure I'd have come up with that but President Biden made a speech the other day where he said words to the effect of Israel is losing international support due to indiscriminate bombing and then a non binding vote 153 countries voted for an end to the violence with an immediate ceasefire, 12 more than what criticised Russia so strongly for invading Ukraine, so I'd say he had a point. I also see that Biden imposed new sanctions on the leaders of hamas too going after their finances but according to Sephiroth I was talking pie in the sky when suggesting that :rolleyes: as he said I was when saying hamas would take over the west bank too if they weren't stopped and guess what, support for them there is growing massively although that's not really surprising when 13 year old children are being killed there and the sick are made to wait in ambulances till they die, that's without mentioning the thousands rounded up for a bit of detention without trial and a roughing up in there no doubt, anyway back to revenge campaign, 18500 dead that we know of well over 50000 injured and thousands more buried under rubble and Israeli officials begging the world not to believe the figures, probably because they're just to horrifying
"Revenge"

Quote:
the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands
Seems fair to me. Don't forget, Israel has effectively locked down Gaza from external monitoring so what they are doing there, to a large extent, is beyond prying eyes.

Whether this was the plan at the beginning, we'll never know but what is playing out now is the ethnic cleaning of at least northern Gaza. The wholesale destruction of housing, plus, more importantly, hospitals & schools means that resettlement, even if allowed, would be an immense challenge.

Likud are now saying the quiet bits out loud:

'We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023,' Israeli Minister Says on Northern Gaza Strip Evacuation

Quote:
Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) was asked in a news interview on Saturday whether the images of northern Gaza Strip residents evacuating south on the IDF’s orders are comparable to images of the Nakba. He replied: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war – as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza – with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.”

When asked again whether this was the “Gaza Nakba”, Dichter – a member of the security cabinet and former Shin Bet director – said “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.”

When later asked if this means Gaza City residents won’t be allowed to return, he replied: “I don’t know how it’ll end up happening since Gaza City is one-third of the Strip – half the land’s population but a third of the territory.”
For reference, the Nakba is commonly defined as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

Quote:
The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') refers to the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region, including the occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip)


---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166537)

I genuinely believe that you are not thinking straight due to some form of bias.

There can be little doubt that Israel's actions include a "revenge" element. But it is not a "campaign of revenge" - it is a campaign to eliminate Hamas.

It shows some form of conscious bias that you skew your answers so as to make Israel the villain. It's all very well t say that you've already condemned Hamas; but you condemn Israel in every post and then complain when I point out how one sided you are.

Plus, of course, you have no idea on what else Israel should have done following 7-Oct's barbarism by Hamas.
Yet again, I have condemned Hamas multiple times but they are not currently killing Israelis by the thousands. Israel, however, are killing Gazans by the thousands hence the ongoing commentary on their actions. It really is quite a basic concept.

I have answered the question before on what I personally think they should have done post Oct 7, as has others, so stop trolling me.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166538)
It’s evident you have me on ignore. These words show you for who you are, what you think and that you are not in this discussion impartially or in good faith.

Which is fine.

We know now you.
Bless

1andrew1 14-12-2023 11:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Good questions from Sky News
Quote:
Israel's open rejection of a 'two-state solution' undermines US Middle East policy

There is no longer any pretence. Israel is no longer dancing around the idea of two states. It isn't going to happen - that is their policy....

America's backing for Israel's military offensive, which has now killed more than 18,000 Gazans, is predicated on the policy of two states at some point after.

Yet it's clear now that America is backing Israel militarily, with US weapons and funding, despite two starkly different end point objectives.

The ambassador's remarks now put Israel in open defiance of every American president's policy going back 40 years.

For many observers, Israel's objection to two states has been clear for years.

The facts on the ground have been shifting for decades and have accelerated in recent years, under the latest iteration of Netanyahu's government, with illegal Jewish settlements expanding rapidly in the occupied West Bank.

The scale and brutality of the Hamas attacks of 7 October have allowed Israel to make its objectives plain.

Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible? Israel is razing the strip.

The question is - how will America now respond to this?

If it is one state not two, then how does that possibly work? Equal rights for all? How do Israelis and Palestinians power share?

The truth is, they can't. So where now?
https://news.sky.com/story/israels-o...olicy-13029952

TheDaddy 14-12-2023 11:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166563)
"Revenge"

Seems fair to me. Don't forget, Israel has effectively locked down Gaza from external monitoring so what they are doing there, to a large extent, is beyond prying eyes.

Whether this was the plan at the beginning, we'll never know but what is playing out now is the ethnic cleaning of at least northern Gaza. The wholesale destruction of housing, plus, more importantly, hospitals & schools means that resettlement, even if allowed, would be an immense challenge.

Likud are now saying the quiet bits out loud:


For reference, the Nakba is commonly defined as:

Bless

Yes killing scores of journalists and aid workers is a pretty effective way of removing the prying eyes

Sephiroth 14-12-2023 12:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166563)
<SNIP>

Yet again, I have condemned Hamas multiple times but they are not currently killing Israelis by the thousands. Israel, however, are killing Gazans by the thousands hence the ongoing commentary on their actions. It really is quite a basic concept.

I have answered the question before on what I personally think they should have done post Oct 7, as has others, so stop trolling me.
<SNIP>
You have never answered, in this thread, the question of what Israel should have done in response to 7-Oct barbarism by Hamas.

All you've ever said is basically "not this way"; or "considered, measured & surgical". Meaningless words because they impart nothing tangible.

Israel is attacked; Israel responds militarily. Mission: eradicate Hamas.

How should Israel conduct its operation?

1andrew1 14-12-2023 12:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166574)
You have never answered, in this thread, the question of what Israel should have done in response to 7-Oct barbarism by Hamas.

All you've ever said is basically "not this way"; or "considered, measured & surgical". Meaningless words because they impart nothing tangible.

Israel is attacked; Israel responds militarily. Mission: eradicate Hamas.

How should Israel conduct its operation?
JFMan explained how and ianch99 said there should be fewer than 500 civilian casualties not the c20k that we're sadly fast approaching. No one's going to give you a military blue print!

Time to move on and answer those timely questions of Sky's:
  • Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible?
  • How will America now respond to this?
  • Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now?

Hugh 14-12-2023 13:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166574)
You have never answered, in this thread, the question of what Israel should have done in response to 7-Oct barbarism by Hamas.

All you've ever said is basically "not this way"; or "considered, measured & surgical". Meaningless words because they impart nothing tangible.

Israel is attacked; Israel responds militarily. Mission: eradicate Hamas.

How should Israel conduct its operation?
Any mission, like any Project, needs SMART objectives -

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Timely

Whilst the current Israeli Government mission is

Specific (wipe out Hamas)

it is neither

Measureable (how will they know when they have wiped out Hamas, as the leaders are in Qatar and the ground troops will just merge into the Palestinian population until the next uprising)
Achievable (see above)
Realistic (see above)
Timely (see above)

1andrew1 14-12-2023 13:48
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36166577)
Any mission, like any Project, needs SMART objectives -

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Timely

Whilst the current Israeli Government mission is

Specific (wipe out Hamas)

it is neither

Measureable (how will they know when they have wiped out Hamas, as the leaders are in Qatar and the ground troops will just merge into the Palestinian population until the next uprising)
Achievable (see above)
Realistic (see above)
Timely (see above)
I think Seph is being a gentleman about Israel's stated mission and taking it at face value.

In contrast, I'm applying a dollop of critical thinking. I believe Israel's government knows that everything in Hugh's post to be correct but has other objectives with its invasion.

ianch99 14-12-2023 17:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166576)
JFMan explained how and ianch99 said there should be fewer than 500 civilian casualties not the c20k that we're sadly fast approaching. No one's going to give you a military blue print!

Time to move on and answer those timely questions of Sky's:
  • Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible?
  • How will America now respond to this?
  • Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now?
Seph is basically saying that the ongoing killing & destruction in Gaza is sanctioned by him because he, personally, cannot comprehend any other solution. I am not sure I can help him with this.

To try and answer your questions:

1/ It is getting there. The killing & ethnic cleaning that is starting to emerge in Northern Gaza will not only deliver Hamas, or who ever replaces them, the next cadre of willing jihadists but it will move previously centrist Arabs in the region more towards the extremist Hamas position. This will destabilise the region further. An old testament saying seem apt here: "as you sow, so shall you reap". Israel is baking in more turmoil.

2/ The US is slowly moving towards a ceasefire position but is not there yet it seems. Don't forget the Jewish lobby in the US is a very powerful one and is ignored at your peril if you wish re-election.

3/ You say they can't share power and I suspect you are right. However, people point to the example of South Africa where an apartheid system was dismantled and a single democratic state emerged. Of course the elephant in this room is religion which fuels hatred on both sides. As history tells you, religious authority claimed over lands is tricky to reconcile.

Sephiroth 14-12-2023 19:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166576)
JFMan explained how and ianch99 said there should be fewer than 500 civilian casualties not the c20k that we're sadly fast approaching. No one's going to give you a military blue print!

Time to move on and answer those timely questions of Sky's:
  • Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible?
  • How will America now respond to this?
  • Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now?
You're nearly always worth engaging.

I'm dealing here with Ian's constant swerving of a proper answer. I spent a lot of time last night (I'm in Australia atm), reading each one of Ian's posts in this thread - trawling through 75+ pages. He has made quite clear how disgusting Hamas is and agrees that they need to be removed.

But then he, and jfman (a different case, though), can only criticise Israel for the collateral damage that is occurring and cannot answer the question as to how else Israel should be dealing with Hamas. Considered, surgical measures is the best he can offer.

Israel is dealing with a murderous terrorist organisation that has taken things too far. The matter of response is indeed binary, which is why Ian can only come up with not this way responses.

Hamas invades Israel and brutally murder120 Israelis taking 200+ hostage.
Israel retaliates militarily (binary choice).

His answer is Considered, surgical measures; what does that mean? This is armchair nonsense.

Hamas operates from tunnels: Israel has to find the tunnels, get to the tunnels, destroy the tunnels and Hamas within. Where are the tunnels? Under civilian infrastructure.

So we come to [I]surgical[I]: This is probably Ian's code for not bombing the crap out of the civilian infrastructure. What is Ian expecting Measured: House to house fighting will cost Israeli lives on an unacceptable scale in Israel's eyes and Israel doesn't really know where tunnels are. So to considered: Israel tells civilians to leave the North and head South. Which brings us back to surgical: Send the ground forces in to the levelled zone and find the tunnels.

You don't have to be a military strategist to come up with that high level view. It's binary: if Hamas is to be destroyed, they have to be found.


Quote:
  • Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible? I'm glad you say 'politically' because the signs are not good. Unless Likud ditches the Ultras and reaches a political deal with the opposition, the 2-state project cannot be resurrected.
    I don't think the Gaza business is making a Palestinian state impossible; it's the parliamentary makeup in Israel combined with deliberate Israeli settlements being created in West Bank that currently makes Palestine impossible.
  • How will America now respond to this? Who knows?
    They virtue signal with one mouth and .do the opposite wit their hands because the Jewish vote matters in an elections.
  • Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now? Good question. I think Israel has real problems stacked up in front of it, not least kindling of additional terrorism from the West Bank, stoked up by Iran. Again, it's a binary matter (imo); the two sides are now even more incompatible than before.
Real shit is going to happen inside Israel and its West Bank settlements, so I forecast unless there is governmental change and all Israeli settlers in West Bank are pulled out. And the settlers are well armed.


---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166592)
Seph is basically saying that the ongoing killing & destruction in Gaza is sanctioned by him because he, personally, cannot comprehend any other solution. I am not sure I can help him with this.

To try and answer your questions:

1/ It is getting there. The killing & ethnic cleaning that is starting to emerge in Northern Gaza will not only deliver Hamas, or who ever replaces them, the next cadre of willing jihadists but it will move previously centrist Arabs in the region more towards the extremist Hamas position. This will destabilise the region further. An old testament saying seem apt here: "as you sow, so shall you reap". Israel is baking in more turmoil.

2/ The US is slowly moving towards a ceasefire position but is not there yet it seems. Don't forget the Jewish lobby in the US is a very powerful one and is ignored at your peril if you wish re-election.

3/ You say they can't share power and I suspect you are right. However, people point to the example of South Africa where an apartheid system was dismantled and a single democratic state emerged. Of course the elephant in this room is religion which fuels hatred on both sides. As history tells you, religious authority claimed over lands is tricky to reconcile.
Wow. Something upon which Ian and I agree.

His first sentence is utter tripe. I sanction nothing (as I've said before). Instead, I rationalise it all out and have reached the conclusion (an unanswered question): what else should have Israel done in response to the Hamas attack.

ianch99 14-12-2023 20:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166599)
You're nearly always worth engaging.

I'm dealing here with Ian's constant swerving of a proper answer. I spent a lot of time last night (I'm in Australia atm), reading each one of Ian's posts in this thread - trawling through 75+ pages. He has made quite clear how disgusting Hamas is and agrees that they need to be removed.

But then he, and jfman (a different case, though), can only criticise Israel for the collateral damage that is occurring and cannot answer the question as to how else Israel should be dealing with Hamas. Considered, surgical measures is the best he can offer.

Israel is dealing with a murderous terrorist organisation that has taken things too far. The matter of response is indeed binary, which is why Ian can only come up with not this way responses.

Hamas invades Israel and brutally murder120 Israelis taking 200+ hostage.
Israel retaliates militarily (binary choice).

His answer is Considered, surgical measures; what does that mean? This is armchair nonsense.

Hamas operates from tunnels: Israel has to find the tunnels, get to the tunnels, destroy the tunnels and Hamas within. Where are the tunnels? Under civilian infrastructure.

So we come to [I]surgical[I]: This is probably Ian's code for not bombing the crap out of the civilian infrastructure. What is Ian expecting Measured: House to house fighting will cost Israeli lives on an unacceptable scale in Israel's eyes and Israel doesn't really know where tunnels are. So to considered: Israel tells civilians to leave the North and head South. Which brings us back to surgical: Send the ground forces in to the levelled zone and find the tunnels.

You don't have to be a military strategist to come up with that high level view. It's binary: if Hamas is to be destroyed, they have to be found.




Real shit is going to happen inside Israel and its West Bank settlements, so I forecast unless there is governmental change and all Israeli settlers in West Bank are pulled out. And the settlers are well armed.


---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------



Wow. Something upon which Ian and I agree.

His first sentence is utter tripe. I sanction nothing (as I've said before). Instead, I rationalise it all out and have reached the conclusion (an unanswered question): what else should have Israel done in response to the Hamas attack.
G'Day Seph. You have to realise that detailed military campaign tactics are not really my speciality as, I suspect, neither yours. You complain that I provide no detail however you refuse to even go near the very simple, straightforward question i.e. should Israel keep killing civilians and razing Gaza. It really is that simple. Either they should continue (your implicit position) or they should not.

I came across this article which touches on the alternate approach that could have been considered:

Transforming Counterinsurgent Strategy: Using the Topography of Intelligence

Quote:
Ultimately, modern technology has succeeded in enabling new intelligence assets and capabilities to trigger a transformation in the character of strategies pursued in defeating insurgencies. The advent of such sequentially-conducted intelligence-based campaigns allows the counterinsurgent to strip away the one piece of protection every insurgent relies upon: the ability to avoid his enemy. With this defence gone, almost any insurgency might be open to destruction as was AQI, provided that the necessary intelligence assets—manpower, hardware and software—are available.
Granted this article is not discussing a direct map to the Gaza situation but it gives enough illumination into an intelligence-led, carefully considered, longer burn of a campaign. Any such approach undoubtedly requires US intelligence & surveillance assets. The use of RF/phone tapping/tracking, drone monitoring, AI-based correlation of record calls to primary assets, RF blackout during surgical ops, etc.

In parallel, you can start economic & other sanctions on countries harbouring Hamas leadership clusters and, failing all, take them out via Special Ops missions like they did with Bin Laden. Just needs a more thoughtful approach as opposed to lobbing JDAMS at civilian housing.

Sephiroth 14-12-2023 21:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166603)
G'Day Seph. You have to realise that detailed military campaign tactics are not really my speciality as, I suspect, neither yours. You complain that I provide no detail however you refuse to even go near the very simple, straightforward question i.e. should Israel keep killing civilians and razing Gaza. It really is that simple. Either they should continue (your implicit position) or they should not.

I came across this article which touches on the alternate approach that could have been considered:

Transforming Counterinsurgent Strategy: Using the Topography of Intelligence


Granted this article is not discussing a direct map to the Gaza situation but it gives enough illumination into an intelligence-led, carefully considered, longer burn of a campaign. Any such approach undoubtedly requires US intelligence & surveillance assets. The use of RF/phone tapping/tracking, drone monitoring, AI-based correlation of record calls to primary assets, RF blackout during surgical ops, etc.

In parallel, you can start economic & other sanctions on countries harbouring Hamas leadership clusters and, failing all, take them out via Special Ops missions like they did with Bin Laden. Just needs a more thoughtful approach as opposed to lobbing JDAMS at civilian housing.
I think that the debate you & I are having all boils down to this.

I've explained in my previous post how Israel must (and did) prosecute this war, certainly in the early days of the retaliation. Then they told civilians to move south, presumably on the understanding that whoever is left will generally be Hamas. Or so it seems to me with a logical eye.

I don't think you should hide behind vague expressions such as just needs a more thoughtful approach (because you're no military strategist). It might be better to concede that Israel had to go in and go in hard with a method that keeps its own troops as safe as possible.

So, given that we agree Hamas must be eliminated, how should that be done in the circumstances of Gaza?

TheDaddy 18-12-2023 13:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Not sure I can imagine a British General having to stress to his soldiers that people who are unarmed, with their hands in the air must be taken prisoner and not shot :shocking:

Paul 18-12-2023 14:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Well friendly fire has always been an issue in war, but this example does seem a bit extreme. Clearly someone was far too trigger happy, forcing the IDF to state it was against their own rules of engagement. Hamas kept them alive, only for them to be shot by their own soldiers. Very bad. :(

TheDaddy 18-12-2023 14:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166786)
Well friendly fire has always been an issue in war, but this example does seem a bit extreme. Clearly someone was far too trigger happy, forcing the IDF to state it was against their own rules of engagement. Hamas kept them alive, only for them to be shot by their own soldiers. Very bad. :(
It's terrible, makes me wonder if this happens routinely as well :(

1andrew1 18-12-2023 21:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166787)
It's terrible, makes me wonder if this happens routinely as well :(
Another situation came to light today.
Quote:
Church deaths a 'cold-blooded killing', cardinal says

An Israeli military sniper shot and killed two women inside the Holy Family Parish in Gaza City on Saturday, according to the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The mother and daughter were walking to the Sister's Convent, the patriarchate said, when gunfire erupted. "One was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety," it added.

"This [happened] within what has been clearly designated as a church place, which I cannot believe for a minute has rocket launchers in it [as Israel claims]," Cardinal Nichols said.

"It's a community that, since October, has sheltered hundreds of people and looked after them," he added.

The news led Pope Francis to condemn Israel, suggesting the country was using "terrorism" tactics in Gaza.

"It's certainly a cold-blooded killing," Cardinal Nichols said.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ga...-blog-12978800

Pierre 18-12-2023 22:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Portray Israel as the true evil, in the region.

Soon Oct 7th will be forgotten, well not soon, it’s already forgotten, and Israel will be forever the occupier, the evil one, the genocider……..we’ll just forget, conveniently, what happened in between.

Hugh 18-12-2023 23:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Not sure reporting factual events is portraying "Israel is the true evil"…

Pierre 18-12-2023 23:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36166809)
Not sure reporting factual events is portraying "Israel is the true evil"…
Oct 7th has been forgotten.

1andrew1 19-12-2023 00:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166810)
Oct 7th has been forgotten.
I think you're having some kind of ghastly groundhog day. Events subsequent to 7th October have occurred and should be discussed.

Sephiroth 19-12-2023 02:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166787)
It's terrible, makes me wonder if this happens routinely as well :(
Of course it makes YOU wonder - the Israeli Army are such b'stards, no?

Paul 19-12-2023 02:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166810)
Oct 7th has been forgotten.
Overshadowed by events since (events of their own making).

Sephiroth 19-12-2023 02:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166806)
Another situation came to light today.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ga...-blog-12978800
Might be one of those hospital jobs.

Hugh 19-12-2023 07:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166810)
Oct 7th has been forgotten.
Its not a binary situation

Pierre 19-12-2023 22:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166817)
Overshadowed by events since (events of their own making).
Depends were you’re planting your stake, but I take your point.

---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36166829)
Its not a binary situation
Absolutely, I fully understand that Israel can be criticised, and should be, for some of their actions post Oct 7th.

I agree that a solution cannot be reached by military means.

That said, we should not ever lose sight of what instigated this conflict.

Hugh 19-12-2023 23:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166885)
Depends were you’re planting your stake, but I take your point.

---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------



Absolutely, I fully understand that Israel can be criticised, and should be, for some of their actions post Oct 7th.

I agree that a solution cannot be reached by military means.

That said, we should not ever lose sight of what instigated this conflict.
Agreed

jfman 22-12-2023 01:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I’d avoided the thread for a bit but it’s a shame it’s taken the deaths of 3 jews and a couple of Catholics for the obvious to become apparent.

ianch99 22-12-2023 11:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36167023)
I’d avoided the thread for a bit but it’s a shame it’s taken the deaths of 3 jews and a couple of Catholics for the obvious to become apparent.
Not apparent to all it seems. It is interesting that the alternate approach that you & I, and others, were advocating is now starting to be discussed aloud:

Blinken steps up call for Israel to spare civilians in strongest remarks yet

Quote:
Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October killed 1,200 people with around 240 others taken hostage. Since then, Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry says Israel has killed more than 14,800 Palestinians in its retaliatory campaign, including about 6,000 children.

Israeli military strikes have hit hospitals and schools and rendered northern Gaza a moonscape of destruction.

The unfolding devastation has shifted the approach of President Joe Biden's administration, from unequivocal support for Israel right after the attack, to a growing emphasis on civilian protection and a focus on alleviating the desperate humanitarian conditions in Gaza.

That evolution has been propelled by anger from Arab allies, and significant dissent to Mr Biden's policies within the administration itself.

Senior officials had been previewing Mr Blinken's message for a more surgical approach when Israel focuses its offensive on southern Gaza, where more than 1.5 million Palestinians have fled to escape bombing in the north.

Paul 22-12-2023 14:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36167023)
I’d avoided the thread for a bit but it’s a shame it’s taken the deaths of 3 jews and a couple of Catholics for the obvious to become apparent.
What is this so called "obvious" ?

jfman 22-12-2023 15:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36167050)
What is this so called "obvious" ?
That Israel aren’t taking meaningful steps to protect civilian lives.

Shooting bare chested men waving a white t-shirt to took like a flag would, for anyone else, be an undeniable war crime. It only made the news because they were hostages.

Occam’s razor would suggest it’s more likely than not that they have shot unarmed civilians before.

Chris 22-12-2023 16:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Beforehand, it was easy enough - if you really wanted to - to tell yourself the IDF were taking all precautions to avoid civilian casualties and the high civilian death toll was entirely due to the difficult urban environment and Hamas’ preference for hiding amongst civilians in order to generate newsreel images favourable to their cause.

However, since they shot dead three Israeli hostages who were waving a massive white flag with Hebrew writing on it and shouting for help, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that they might be being just a little reckless.

Paul 22-12-2023 18:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36167054)
That Israel aren’t taking meaningful steps to protect civilian lives.
What would be "meaningful" steps then ?

mrmistoffelees 23-12-2023 17:40
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36167067)
What would be "meaningful" steps then ?
Well they could start by not shooting dead three Israeli hostages who were waving a massive white flag with Hebrew writing on it and shouting for help.

Just a thought

Paul 23-12-2023 18:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36167103)
Well they could start by not shooting dead three Israeli hostages who were waving a massive white flag with Hebrew writing on it and shouting for help.
Yes, because that was clearly deliberate policy. :rolleyes:

Actually got any sensible answers ?

mrmistoffelees 23-12-2023 18:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36167105)
Yes, because that was clearly deliberate policy. :rolleyes:

Actually got any sensible answers ?
Sorry but it’s a perfectly sensible answer, you might not like it but it’s true. If they can’t take due care when clearly unarmed people have a raised white flag with Hebrew written on it then that’s don’t hold much hope for their decision making in less clear situations.

Could you perhaps demonstrate what steps the IDF have taken to minimise civilian casualties ?

I’d suggest that they’re being indiscriminate as a whole based on the % of casualties being women and children, unless of course you or anyone else thinks they’re all active members of Hamas

jfman 23-12-2023 18:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36167105)
Yes, because that was clearly deliberate policy. :rolleyes:

Actually got any sensible answers ?
It doesn’t need to be a deliberate policy, being reckless, careless or just complete incompetence aren’t really acceptable qualities for a military force as it massacres civilians, and hostages, “by accident”.

Not bombing refugee camps, hospitals that don’t actually have tunnels under them, churches, mosques or other areas generally recognised as refuges for civilians.

Oh, and don’t bomb the areas you tell civilians to evacuate to for their own safety.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...d-dbfcc0bb0000

All perfectly sensible.

Pierre 23-12-2023 20:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36167111)
Sorry but it’s a perfectly sensible answer, you might not like it but it’s true. If they can’t take due care when clearly unarmed people have a raised white flag with Hebrew written on it then that’s don’t hold much hope for their decision making in less clear situations.
The actions of what were probably reservist soldiers is not representative of the whole IDF.

Quote:
Could you perhaps demonstrate what steps the IDF have taken to minimise civilian casualties ?
That’s very easy and well documented

https://www.jns.org/how-the-idf-is-r...lties-in-gaza/

Quote:
I’d suggest that they’re being indiscriminate as a whole based on the % of casualties being women and children, unless of course you or anyone else thinks they’re all active members of Hamas
Well you can suggest Al you like, but you’d be wrong.

TheDaddy 24-12-2023 02:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36167125)
The actions of what were probably reservist soldiers is not representative of the whole IDF.
Always an excuse :rolleyes:

What's not been mentioned here yet is that one of the hostages survived the initial executions and was hiding in a building wounded, shouting in Hebrew that he was a hostage and was then killed nevertheless and it's so unrepresentative of the IDF as a whole it's leader felt compelled to tell his soldiers they are absolutely not permitted to shoot those surrendering


Quote:
Well you can suggest Al you like, but you’d be wrong.
Suppose Joe Biden is wrong too when he said Israel is losing international support due to it's indiscriminate bombing of civilians

mrmistoffelees 28-12-2023 18:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36167125)
The actions of what were probably reservist soldiers is not representative of the whole IDF.



That’s very easy and well documented

https://www.jns.org/how-the-idf-is-r...lties-in-gaza/



Well you can suggest Al you like, but you’d be wrong.


Perhaps they could add ‘using the right munitions’ for the required situation.

For all their military superiority, intelligence gathering services and overseas backing the IDF’s approach appears to be at best
lackadaisical

jfman 28-12-2023 19:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36167363)
Perhaps they could add ‘using the right munitions’ for the required situation.

For all their military superiority, intelligence gathering services and overseas backing the IDF’s approach appears to be at best
lackadaisical
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510

The Jerusalem Post has the answer… ethnic cleansing.

Paul 28-12-2023 21:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Um, what does that article have to do with "ethnic cleansing" ?

jfman 28-12-2023 21:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Forcibly moving Palestinians from Gaza to the Sinai would be ethnic cleansing.

Quote:
The ongoing obliteration of Hamas, which terrorizes Palestinian Authority officials and many Gaza residents, may pave the way to the emergence of the proposed Sinai solution, if presented in a wise and discrete manner that conforms to the Middle East mentality.
Terrorising residents here is being sold as a positive.

Pierre 02-01-2024 20:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-dep...ah-tv-13041022

Mossad, no doubt.

Paul 02-01-2024 20:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I would think so.

Pierre 18-02-2024 20:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Amazing how this has fallen off the radar.

Anyway, this is just a reminder that the actions in Gaza is not a genocide.

And if you need to understand what a genocide is, let me help you educate yourself.

Listen to this. It’ll take up a lot your time. Listen in the car or when walking the dog.

If, at times, it doesn’t bring you almost to tears or make you feel physically sick in your stomach…..well it will.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000645418266

You’ll be a lot more informed and potentially smarter having listened to this……….your welcome.

jfman 18-02-2024 20:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I’m sure the 1.5 million refugees that Israel are threatening to push into Egypt will care for the distinction from Jewish historians as to why Palestinian suffering isn’t as meaningful as theirs.

It’s probably fell of the radar because even those who initially found Israel’s actions in some way defensible ceased to do so. Or others felt like it was going round in circles.

At least nobody is pretending Israel don’t target hospitals any more.

Pierre 18-02-2024 20:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170423)
I’m sure the 1.5 million refugees that Israel are threatening to push into Egypt will care for the distinction from Jewish historians as to why Palestinian suffering isn’t as meaningful as theirs.

It’s probably fell of the radar because even those who initially found Israel’s actions in some way defensible ceased to do so. Or others felt like it was going round in circles.

At least nobody is pretending Israel don’t target hospitals any more.
You haven’t listened to it.

Dan Carlin is not a historian, let alone a Jewish one.

Listen to it then comment otherwise you’re just being a dick.

Listen to it, please. Listen to it then we discuss.

What’s happening in Gaza is terrible, and I’m not playing top trumps, but anyone that says what’s happening in Gaza is a genocide, is not to be taken seriously.

ianch99 19-02-2024 10:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36167365)
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510

The Jerusalem Post has the answer… ethnic cleansing.
I think that when they originally started this war after the Hamas attack, they did not have ethnic cleansing explicitly in mind but as they made progress into Gaza, then I am sure this came up as an option. The excessive destruction of the housing and infrastructure lends itself to achieving de facto ethnic cleaning together with the hostile attitude to the Gazan civilians - "animals" etc.

Sephiroth 19-02-2024 11:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170446)
I think that when they originally started this war after the Hamas attack, they did not have ethnic cleansing explicitly in mind but as they made progress into Gaza, then I am sure this came up as an option. The excessive destruction of the housing and infrastructure lends itself to achieving de facto ethnic cleaning together with the hostile attitude to the Gazan civilians - "animals" etc.
John went to the extreme by calling relocation of Gazans to Sinai peninsular 'ethnic cleansing'.

Note that the JP article does not contain the word "animals". I don't know where that came from. But here is a quote from the JP article that sums it up reasonably well [my emboldenment of text].

Quote:
In other words, the metropolis has to be fully evacuated, redesigned, monitored, and only then rebuilt to provide habitable and economic conducive conditions. Such an effort requires unique expertise and immense funding and will take considerable time that cannot be calculated. Therefore, the war is anticipated to end with a unique humanitarian challenge of how to construct a better future for the people of Gaza.

Since Israel’s unconditional turnover of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority in 2005, Gazans have completely failed to generate a productive Palestinian-administered entity, despite generous economic support, mainly from America, Europe, Qatar, and the UN. This may be associated with the coupled effect of an intrinsic hatred-focused, fanatic, anti-Israel Islamic culture, and links with Iran, along with limited geographical conditions, poor natural and human resources, and a high population density. This situation raises serious doubts that any type of future self-sustainable efforts will yield a stable and free socioeconomic culture and promising future in the Strip. A creative solution is needed ASAP.
For what my opinion and that of the JP is worth, there is not a kangaroo's fart of a chance that any of this will work. And it's not helped by the Israeli Ultras who. perversely, seem to favour ethnic cleansing judging by their actions in the West Bank.

This is not going to end well - except possibly for the eradication of the current Hamas set.

jfman 19-02-2024 12:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Relocating people from the land they are currently on into another country on the basis of ethnicity by force is absolutely ethnic cleansing.

As a rule of thumb as yourself “if Russia did it what would it be called?”. If the answer is something else from Israel doing it then the problem isn’t in Palestine it is staring you in the face in the mirror.

Pierre 19-02-2024 16:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170459)
Relocating people from the land they are currently on into another country on the basis of ethnicity by force is absolutely ethnic cleansing.

As a rule of thumb as yourself “if Russia did it what would it be called?”. If the answer is something else from Israel doing it then the problem isn’t in Palestine it is staring you in the face in the mirror.
I don't think it can be argued that Israel haven't taken it to the very limit and then beyond.

I think the term Ethnic Cleansing is valid and using dehumanising language, which I also believe to be true, is worrying.

There is no doubt, that Hamas are animals, but innocent Palestinians are not and dehumanising humans makes it easier to justify mis-treatment.

Whilst comparisons between what actions Israel has undertaken and the actions of Nazi Germany are ludicrous and insulting, Israel should stop and take stock.

They had a valid and just reason to take action. They have now, I would assume, severely affected Hamas. They have clearly showed what they are capable of doing in response to any further future attack, either by Hamas or anyone else.

I think now is the time to stop, they retain the option to restart should they have to.

I also think Hamas need to release the remaining hostages.

ianch99 19-02-2024 16:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170450)
John went to the extreme by calling relocation of Gazans to Sinai peninsular 'ethnic cleansing'.

Note that the JP article does not contain the word "animals". I don't know where that came from. But here is a quote from the JP article that sums it up reasonably well [my emboldenment of text].



For what my opinion and that of the JP is worth, there is not a kangaroo's fart of a chance that any of this will work. And it's not helped by the Israeli Ultras who. perversely, seem to favour ethnic cleansing judging by their actions in the West Bank.

This is not going to end well - except possibly for the eradication of the current Hamas set.
I am surprised you do not understand the concept of ethnic cleaning? Here's the currrent UN definition:

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml

Quote:
"… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”
As for the animals quote, here you go:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/

Quote:
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds
https://twitter.com/SReports2/status...62775293280467

Quote:
Israeli army's Major General Ghassan Alian speaks to Hamas and and the residents of Gaza: "Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell."

jfman 19-02-2024 17:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36170500)
I don't think it can be argued that Israel haven't taken it to the very limit and then beyond.

I think the term Ethnic Cleansing is valid and using dehumanising language, which I also believe to be true, is worrying.

There is no doubt, that Hamas are animals, but innocent Palestinians are not and dehumanising humans makes it easier to justify mis-treatment.

Whilst comparisons between what actions Israel has undertaken and the actions of Nazi Germany are ludicrous and insulting, Israel should stop and take stock.

They had a valid and just reason to take action. They have now, I would assume, severely affected Hamas. They have clearly showed what they are capable of doing in response to any further future attack, either by Hamas or anyone else.

I think now is the time to stop, they retain the option to restart should they have to.

I also think Hamas need to release the remaining hostages.
Anyone carrying out similar alleged war crimes (on the same level as what Israel are doing in the occupied territories) on Jews with their politicians openly using the rhetoric of ethnic cleaning would absolutely and legitimately be compared with the Nazis. No-one would even pause to consider such a comparison as controversial.

Truth hurts I guess.

Sephiroth 19-02-2024 17:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170501)
I am surprised you do not understand the concept of ethnic cleaning? Here's the currrent UN definition:

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml



As for the animals quote, here you go:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...-food-or-fuel/



https://twitter.com/SReports2/status...62775293280467
Hamas are worse than animals.

Hugh 19-02-2024 17:06
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170506)
Hamas are worse than animals.
However, the Israeli General wasn’t just talking about Hamas…

jfman 19-02-2024 17:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
If that's the bits he's willing to say in public one can only fear for the motivational speeches he gives his troops as they go in to slaughter innocent women and children. The videos of piles of children laid out in Gaza, gunned down by sniper fire, might give us a clue.

Sephiroth 19-02-2024 17:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36170507)
However, the Israeli General wasn’t just talking about Hamas…
I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.

TheDaddy 19-02-2024 17:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170510)
I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.
Course you did, the piles of dead children tell me who his remark applied to

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170509)
The videos of piles of children laid out in Gaza, gunned down by sniper fire, might give us a clue.

Hugh 19-02-2024 17:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170510)
I judged that his animals remark applied to Hamas.
Your judgement is not congruent with actuality.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...will-get-hell/

Quote:
In a video statement, Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, head of COGAT, says: “Kidnapping, abusing and murdering children, women and elderly people is not human. There is no justification for that. Hamas has turned into ISIS, and the residents of Gaza, instead of being appalled, are celebrating.

“Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

Pierre 19-02-2024 19:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170504)
Anyone carrying out similar alleged war crimes (on the same level as what Israel are doing in the occupied territories) on Jews with their politicians openly using the rhetoric of ethnic cleaning would absolutely and legitimately be compared with the Nazis. No-one would even pause to consider such a comparison as controversial.

Truth hurts I guess.
You very obviously have not listened to the Dan Carlin pod cast, the atrocities undertaken by the Nazis eclipse anything done by Hamas or Israel.

ISIS come close, but lack scale.

jfman 19-02-2024 19:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I have no interest in reading a propaganda piece timed to claim that some people have a monopoly on who can (and who can not) invoke the word genocide.

Esteemed members of the forum routinely used it in the Russia invading Ukraine thread. A short checklist of the reasons for doing so have been met and egregiously exceeded by the Israeli state by any metric going. Deaths of civilians (in particular women and children), attacks on hospitals, attacks on places of worship, attacks on universities or other cultural symbols.

I didn’t see this podcast (or any similar ones) released to seek to police the language used following Russia beginning the special military operation. The West were more than happy to throw around claims of genocide then, I see no reason for to back away now.

One may say genocide “as commonly understood”.

1andrew1 19-02-2024 20:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36170525)
You very obviously have not listened to the Dan Carlin pod cast, the atrocities undertaken by the Nazis eclipse anything done by Hamas or Israel.

ISIS come close, but lack scale.
I'm struggling to see the relevance or indeed value of a genocide ranking here.

Pierre 19-02-2024 20:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36170534)
I have no interest in reading a propaganda piece timed to claim that some people have a monopoly on who can (and who can not) invoke the word genocide.
I didn’t ask you read it, I asked you to listen.

It’s not a propaganda piece, it’s factual history.

Anyway if you don’t want to listen that’s fine. I’ll recount a story from it.

Quote:
The Jews, families, were made to queue. As they moved along the queue they were ordered to undress at stations by SS. 1st remove all jewellery, 2nd shoes, 3rd clothing. As they got closer to the mound of Earth they could hear gun fire.

Behind the mound, was a massive pit with steps cut into the Earth. Sat on the edge of the pit was an SS soldier with a machine gun firing into the pit.

After his salvo had finished the next group were ordered into pit. The man held the hand of his nine year son and whispered into ear and pointed to the sky, the woman held the two year old in her arms, grandparents and adolescents held each other.

Some already in the pit were still writhing around not yet dead. The group were ordered to lay down on the bodies already in the pit, and the SS soldier fired off another salvo.
Gaza is terrible on its own merits but it is nothing compared to the holocaust and should never ever try to be equated to it. That my point.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36170542)
I'm struggling to see the relevance or indeed value of a genocide ranking here.
It’s not a ranking, it an equivalence that is trying to be pushed, where there absolutely isn’t one.

jfman 19-02-2024 20:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36170548)
Gaza is terrible on its own merits
I fail to see the point in centring current Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israeli state around the historic suffering of Jews.

It’s up to others what terms they seek to use but I’m absolutely confident in those I have put forward in this thread. Historic events are irrelevant.

If the Jewish state cannot ground it’s own morality and treatment of others informed by history I fail to see why anyone should ground their judgement of it there.


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