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Nothing good can come out of Europe Andrew, you should know that by now ;) They are all evil people and foreigners to boot ! E.g. French cheese and champagne is rotten stuff. Give me a US hormone infused burger, fries and cola instead :rolleyes:

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Oh I don't know Mr K, Newcastle Brown is now brewed in Europe. (I bet you didn't know that!).

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Yes I have seen the wasteland that was the Newccy Brown brewery in Newcastle. Lots of EU money no longer coming to that region ...

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What are you on about? The site has already been purchased.

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One, two, three, all together now:

“Net Contributor!”

Hooray!

For the hard of thinking: there is no such thing as EU money.

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For the harder of thinking: There is such a thing as the European Investment Bank that lends money to UK projects. http://www.eib.org/en/projects/regio...gdom/index.htm

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To be tried when I get back from Mauritius.

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Brexit news is never quiet, unfortunately!
David Davis voted for the plan when he was at the Chequers meeting but apparently wanted a second and different vote on the deal so resigned from the Government. ;)
The maths will be interesting on whatever deal gets put to Parliament. No one should assume that Labour is any more united than the Conservative Party.
I think everyone on this thread whichever way they voted has been quiet recently. I attribute this to well-deserved holidays. ;)

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Maybe we are just speechless at this government's ineptitude and the grandstanding of the circling vultures around the carcase of Brexit.

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The EIB also lends a ton of cash to projects already outside the EU. (10% of the total value of current loans, in fact). It is also operationally independent of the European Commission and is looking for a post-Brexit relationship with the UK. Nice try, but no cigar.

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For those in the North East and South West of England there is Chris. It helps fund many projects. If the money comes back to us will we directing it to these areas ? After the wreck Brexit will make of our economy, there'll be nothing but cuts.

You think the the Govt. will pump money into these areas ? Remember the 'Northern Powerhouse' ? I was desperately looking for it out of the window on my the 1970s clapped out, overcrowded, overpriced, late diesel train this morning ! But money for CrossRail and the South East seems to be limitless. Think we know who the Tories will be looking after (themselves mostly). The EU was some protection from them and protection for us.

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Oh yes. It's one of my great treats when I visit our Munich office - a nice Hefeweizen beer along with Schweinshaxe (roast pork hock served with sauerkraut and potato dumplings) or maybe currywurst (a British invention funnily enough)

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Wrong ... there is no EU money, only British, German, and French money, plus that of a half dozen or so other net contributors. Minus any goodwill payment or reasonable discharge of our obligations, post Brexit that money will remain in British control, for spending directly on British priorities.

Well here’s the thing. We can’t vote out the European Commission. We have a minimal influence over the composition of the European Parliament. We can, however, change the composition of our own Parliament and therefore our government every five years. That money will be directed wherever the government we elect decides. If we don’t like that, we know what to do.

Mmm. Is this the same ‘nothing but cuts’ as the one we were assured would immediately follow a leave vote?

Slightly off topic, but: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelli...he-nova-fleets

They even have the same uber-modern black front end and LED headlights as the new Crossrail trains.

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Spot on. I favour zero tariff on Japanese alcohol. Saki nothad too.

---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

Genau. Some Sainsburys do the Haxe.

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Utter bollocks. Same FAKE foresight that you had after the leave vote. That there would job losses, a recession. None of which has occurred. We do not need to be in a corrupted EU to thrive.

Drunken Juncker I’ve read recently, spends £10,000 a month of our money on expenses, probably propping up a bar somewhere the piss head that he is and he recently spent £24,000+ on a one night travel via private jet to Rome.

Yes there will be cuts, the U.K. will be cutting the funding of this wretched old fool and his cronies, once and for good, when it ceases it’s con job, membership fee contributions.

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Brexit hasn't happened yet Mick, as you keep being told, but we've already seen the effects of the weak pound.

Junker - well if we're basing Brexit on one individual then we're being a bit foolish. The EU isn't perfect, but I'd suggest our government is no better. (Boris was also trying to get his own private jet from the tax payer wasn't he ? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...calls-12580411 )

The EU does protect us from our own government sometimes, workers rights, abolition of credit card charges, roaming charges, drug prices. Many protections and safeguards we have now will disappear. People are in for a shock - you don't what you've lost till its gone ......

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I thought those protections were being carried over into UK law.

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Initially yes, but only because that then alliows the Govt. the freedom to get rid of them.

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Doesn’t mean they will get rid of them.

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Your lack of awareness of political and historical context is shocking, and it leads you to make some pretty absurd assertions.

For starters, many of the safeguards we only have because of Europe, came by that route precisely because we were members of an organisation whose primary aim is regulation of these sorts of market mechanisms. And it is because our own government and civil service has allowed itself to be hollowed out, pleading duplication of effort and subcontracting its sovereignty to a supranational body over which we have limited influence, that many of us voted to leave.

These decisions properly belong to a democratic assembly that is accountable to its electors. And, for the record, that is what the Westminster Parliament is. It is not the sort of corrupt, tinpot regime you paint it to be when you absurdly plead that we need protecting from it. If we need protecting from Parliament, then ultimately we need protecting from ourselves. You may have so dim a view of your fellow citizens, but I do not.

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And it is exactly this that will be at risk once we leave and find ourselves in the low tax, low regulation, gig economy favoured by the Tories who are currently driving the Hard brexit agenda.

I do not share your faith, or maybe it is naivety, that our Westminster government will add to and uphold the market interventions that have protected the consumer for these years past. The free marketeers are literally rubbing their hands with glee at the prospects that a Hard brexit will bring.

When/If Mr Corbyn gets the keys to Number 10, I welcome your post applauding the choice of your fellow citizens :)

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I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on here but I'd love you to be right. Post-Brexit vote, the EIB is actually slashing its funding to the UK and this shows no sign of changing.
And yes, it does invest in the UK's regions:
https://www.ft.com/content/1d08aa82-...2-d7d59aace167

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When Satan skates to work my friend.

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Looks like the capitulation plan and May are both about to become toast.

Brexit here we come. :hyper:

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She should have started out on the basis that the EU will say no to everything other than capitulation. I told her that back in October.

I got the usual weasel words back that she will deliver the Brexit we voted for.

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Here's the leaflet:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...ns-if-we-leave

Can you highlight where it is "explaining exactly what brexit [is]"?

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There is no point in even trying to communicate with a mind so closed to leaving the EU as yours is so i will continue not bothering to try .

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Now now, play nicely :)

When people lie, I will challenge it. You may accept alternative facts, I don't ..

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Maybe we can solve this one if you can help point out to Mr K where it is in the leaflet now that Ian has kindly located it.

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It clearly says that staying in the EU guarantees staying in the single market, whereas leaving doesn’t.

It clearly states that no country out of the EU has been granted access to the single market without paying into the EU, acccepting EU laws and free movement of people.

It also goes on to state that being outside the single market and not being able to agree a deal we would have to negotiate a new FTA which could take a long time.

The leaflet is very clear that we cannot leave the EU and stay in the Single Market at the level we are now. It clearly states that we would have to negotiate access to the Single market which is not guaranteed

Clear to anyone that can read.

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

The whole leaflet explains what the probable outcomes are following a leave vote - which bits don’t you understand and i’ll Try and help you.

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Who lied?

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Pierre is 100% correct. Given that every household is supposed to have received the guvmin funded leaflet, they/most/some might have even read it.

It is quite clear from ordinary meaning of the leaflet, that if we voted leave, we would lose whatever "benefits" the guvmin was trying to sell.

52% of those voting chose to reject the guvmin's enticements to remain.

You should not be calling Pierre a liar particularly as I can't call that "piss head" Juncker a "turd".

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Problem always was with the referendum, the remain group could only sell the status quo. A dull factual booklet has no catch phrases.

The leave group seemed to sell the voters whatever they liked, which in the case of Farage included his belief of staying in the single market.
Then there was the NHS money and immigration, all nice simple things for people to vote for. Immigration was always under UK control the government was just very bad at dealing with it.

People really need to look at who actually lied.

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on the contrary, Farage has always been against staying in the single market

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-anna-soubry

Because he knows that staying in the single market means signing up to the four freedoms and ECJ jurisdiction.

The government was and still is, able to control non-EU immigration. Which it is bad at.

It is not able to control movement of EU nationals, however it did have the option of delaying freedom of movement to the new eastern European members that the Labour Gov at the time declined to do.

The NHS statement was catchy campaign headline nothing more.

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At the moment there is so much crap floating about it's more confusing than it was before we voted.

I don't even think the EU know what they are doing let alone the UK. This is a test case of a country leaving the EU. It's never been done before especially a country that has been in a long time with so many financial ties.

Leaving which I still vote on will damage the UK as much as it will damage the EU. They need to find a middle ground that won't start the ball rolling for others in the EU to take the same route which I understand from the EU side of it.

However if the chain snaps then it shows how weak the EU project really is and I think they know this.

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Indeed - from your link

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sorry, there's nothing in that article that pins Farage as saying he wants the UK to stay in the single market

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Gavin has it.

They are scared schmittless that others might sooner or later leave their poxy project.

Btw, the reason that the European Parliament is so pro-federation is that they’ll trump national parliaments. The Fourth Reich so to speak.

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That is not Farage advocating staying in the single market.

That is Farage commenting on the happiness of two countries.

That is the author putting two things together to try and make a story.

If Farage was quoted as saying:

“Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing, ...........and it's because they're in the single market"
—Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

Then you might have had something, but he didn't, and you don't.

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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...premium-europe

The fudge is coming

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Of course a fudge is coming, there can be no other way. The big countries of the EU will not sacrifice their economies on the alter of the four freedoms and ECJ jurisdiction, by cutting adrift trade and possible future payments into the EU budget for the UK to access the Single Market......but they can't be seen to be cutting such a deal.

So it will be fudge, after fudge, after fudge until we reach an acceptable equilibrium for both sides.

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And equally the UK is not keen on falling back to W.T.O rules.

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Some are some aren't it's not quite that black and white .

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This just seems to be kicking the tin can down the road.

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The current position of the U.K. government is to avoid WTO even if it involves stalling IMO.

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Just to clarify a few things:
-Newcastle Brown was brewed in Newcastle upon Tyne until 2005
-From 2005 until 2010 it was brewed across the Tyne in Gateshead
-From 2010 onwards it has been brewed further south at the John Smith's Brewery in Tadcaster, North Yorkshire
-The Tadcaster production was joined in 2017 by production at Heineken's brewery in the Netherlands. The Tadcaster brewery has not closed and continues to produce Newcastle Brown and John Smith's ales for the UK.

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Newcastle Brown for the US market is now produced in the Netherlands but production for the UK is still made in Tadcaster.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-G...ucts/255237427
https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb...rown-ale-550ml

The Federation Brewery in Dunstone has an interesting history as until its sale to Scottish & Newcastle, it was collectively owned by the working men's clubs in the region.

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Fudge, arrlllll (droowl) fudge.

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I liked the bit in the Torygraph today reporting that Raab had told Barnier that the EU would have to order Ireland to erect a boarder if there was no deal. Barnier was reported to be "furious". Should have been said months ago.

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Seems a bit questionable. The U.K Government do not want a hard border either. I think they would consider just having an open border even without any formal agreement than putting up an actual border.

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AS BoJo joins the singles market :D , Eurosceptics decide not to publish their plans.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...rint-5rxnblpql

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It’s up to the Irish as to what security controls they want to have at the border. If the U.K. and Ireland don’t want a hard border then there doesn’t have to be one.

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If either country wants to follow WTO rules and keep different rules in key areas from the other, they won't qualify for WTO membership without a hard border. If the Eurosceptics had a workable solution to this problem, why would they withdraw it from publication?

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Why not?

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It's a WTO requirement unless we give zero tariffs to every country in the world which is not on the agenda.
Per Professor O’Donoghue of Durham Law School
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3058337

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I had hoped that it answers the question succinctly, accurately and provides a link to supporting material. I'm not sure how I can help you further on this but maybe someone else can.

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Where does it say that there has to be an EU imposed hard border?

In any event, nobody is saying that there won’t be tarriffs and other checks, but you don’t need physical infrastructure to achieve it it.

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If the EU members didn't have hard borders with countries that are not aligned through the single market and customs union then the EU ceases to become compliant with WTO regulations unless it has zero tariffs with every country and it has no intention of doing so. Otherwise, you will be letting through goods that have different standards (eg chlorinated chicken) or are subsidised (eg US maize) or have tariffs on (eg Chinese-made cars) which will damage the single market. So not EU-imposed, but they would probably be the messenger boy as the EU is the WTO member.
No serious player now believes that wishful thinking about no physical infrastructure being needed for a hard border. The Irish border is the elephant in the room and always has been.
From a hard/clean Brexit point of view, keeping NI in the EU customs union and the single market is probably the best solution given the interdependent nature of the two countries making up the island of Ireland, but getting the DUP on board may be tricky.

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Hmm, I know that things have understandably got heated in the Brexit debate but BoJo describing the Chequers plan a suicide vest is in very poor taste.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45462900

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Problem is WTO rules require hard borders.

Not in the EU and looking to use WTO rules and NI border becomes a huge issue.

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I think you’re really saying that WTO rules imply hard borders.

There is no written WTO rule about hard borders. And the NI customs border can be policed by more modern means via technology.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

I’ve changed my position. I previously had reached the point of admitting that remaining in the EU would be better than Chequers, provided that we could continue sticking it to the EC.

However, today’s report in the Sunday Times that Merkel is pushing for a German to take over from Juncker when his term is up next year, that German being none other than the arch **** Martin Selmayr, has changed all that.

I’ve repeatedly warned you all about German hegemony; now the United States of Germany is edging closer. We must leave this wretched EU on 29-March.

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What technology?

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The Canadian customs technology, perhaps?

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This article, shows why how we trade may cause problems, if we do not have the right agreements.

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Please elaborate?

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Btw, even if it’s not going to be Selmayr, but another German, my United States of Germany description still stands. Merkel wants to tighten Germany’s grip on the EU.

Is that what the Remainers want?

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WTO does not require hard borders.

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/...their-borders/

We could, I repeat, could, fall foul of MFN most favoured nation rule, if another wto member complained.

In the meantime, a technological solution can be explored and implemented. The EU have already undertaken a study on a model for a frictionless border in N.I.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...9596828_EN.pdf

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From your link Everyone keeps saying ‘a Technology solution’ can be implemented - anyone who thinks a major technological solution with supporting infrastructure, processes, and training can be implemented in six months has never actually implemented one.

They haven’t even begunn the tender process...

There is an interesting (non-biased) article in Wired about the challenges.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/iris...er-brexit-tech

Don’t forget, the UK’s EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (section 10.2b) stipulates that no new ‘physical infrastructure be created, including border posts, checks or controls.

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Duh....that’s what I said????

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But you also said and the article also states Which contradicts that...

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Exactly.

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. “May”

FFS......Read the article.

There is no contradiction, engage brain before posting.

The WTO does not require a hard border.

However, another member of the WTO may object under the MFN rule. ( not guaranteed and would take some time). In the mean time a solution could be sought.

Just read the article....................

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

Read the article, and engage your brain.

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If a solution could be found, why wouldn't it be deployed first time round to save winding up potential trading partners by waiting for them to complain before deploying it? It couldn't and I suspect that I am not alone in deducing this.

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I’m sure it would.

Just draw a line under this particular discussion, you & others, have stated that the WTO “demand”. that we have a hard border.

That isn’t the case. Now that we have laid that myth to bed we can move on to something else.

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Why are they installing public loos along side the route to the Euro-tunnel?

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If countries followed your understanding of WTO rules then I would expect there to be some soft borders between countries whose regulations and tariffs are not harmonised. There are no such examples.

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Would the borders between Sweden and Norway and lots of countries and Switzerland be considered soft borders. See here for the implications of soft borders - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ders-1.2829910

I was away last week with colleagues from two EU countries and a country that wants to join the EU. Later, I will summarise their opinions on Brexit discussed over a few beers...

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You remember the famous leaflet that was "posted through the door explaining exactly what brexit was"? Can you remind me which Brexit did it exactly explain?

1. No Deal (WTO)
2. Chequers
3. Canada+
4. EFTA

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

At least he is now trying honesty:

I can’t promise life will be rosy after Brexit, says Liam Fox

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Read and inwardly digest the above post .

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But I do not believe that your mind is so closed. So, tell us, which is the Brexit you saw so exactly in that leaflet?

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I saw in the leaflet, the antithesis of what the leaflet was actually saying about how wonderful the EU was.

It enabled me to judge that despite the Project Fear being instilled, I would still vote to come out of the EU. That is the Brexit I saw.

Also I had no doubt that the reason the guvmin wanted us to vote Remain was so that DC and his cabinet could still have their slice of power at the big table. Even to the extent of handing them £10 billion net of our money p.a.

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I will share my experiences of what my European colleagues thought about Brexit at some point but in the meantime, want to know what sort of projects our £350m per week have funded in your neighbourhood? Then check this out - https://www.myeu.uk/

Nearly a million within a mile of my home. Blimey.

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£1.7 M within a mile or so of me, interfering corrupt Europeans, how dare they. ;)

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Whose decision was it to spend those millions? Ours or theirs?

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It looks like, for the few I have looked at that it is like research council funding. The funding body decides the strategic direction and asks for applicants. These are then judged on their merits by independent fund governors. See EPSRC, BBSRC, NERC, etc. for more local examples.

For example, one big one close to me is funded by ECO-SEE which looks at green building design. Representatives from Skanska UK, The Building Research Establishment and a couple of UK universities are on the board. If it’s ‘our’ or ‘their’ decision, it’s neither.

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Let's take back control and spend that money in London instead! They might finally agree with Brexit after all.

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Perhaps a better way to look at it is "How much of that £350m per week has not been spent on UK projects", you may then see the true cost of membership.

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What £350m?:D:D:D

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Just had a play here - http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/i...e/index_en.cfm In 2017, we spent €6326.3m and received €3199m so a deficit of €3127.3m or €60.1m per week. Based on an annual average EUR to GBP exchange rate in 2017 of 0.88, that is £52.9m per week.

That's an extra 81p per person, per week. Nice.

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Applause as Jean-Claude Juncker tells UK 'you can't pick and choose'

The European Commission president warns Britain will not be treated the same when it leaves the bloc.

The UK will not be allowed to pick and choose to be part of some of the single market after Brexit, the EU has warned.

In the final State of the European Union address before the UK leaves the bloc, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said he respected Britain's decision to leave the bloc and that the UK would never be "an ordinary third country".

But he asked the British government to understand that the UK "cannot be in the same privileged position as a member state" when it leaves.


https://news.sky.com/story/applause-...hoose-11495799

Also......

PMQs: May hints UK might not pay Brexit 'divorce bill'

The prime minister tells MPs "the position changes" on the UK's £39bn divorce bill if there is a "no-deal" Brexit.

May asked about Brexit "divorce bill"

Conservative MP Chris Philp asks if payment of Britain's obligations to the EU is dependent on a deal being agreed with Brussels, noting the PM had previously said "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".

May responds by saying that Britain is a country that abides by its international obligations. Although she notes that if there is a "no-deal" Brexit, "the position changes".

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Fine. We voted to leave. That means not being a member of any bits of the EU. Leave means leave. We are negotiating access to, not membership of. Enough of the rhetoric, time to just get the job finished.

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Shock news
If we crash out without a deal the Eu will force us to drive on the right hand side of the road when travelling in Europe.

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See today's news
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8535496.html

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latest video from Pat Condell