Re: Brexit discussion
 

The problem here is that many incompetent people don't actually know they're useless because nobody dare tell them so, it's just not done in this PC world.

And pathological liars reach the stage where they are 100% certain that they aren't even telling lies.

If anyone ever confronted him as a waste of space lying shyster they'd probably end up in court with a career in tatters :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Looks like Donald Tusk is having a press conference tomorrow to move onto the next stage of talks. Maybe something has been agreed with Ireland.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I fed of of the idiots saying it can be stopped or even trying to stop it.

The worst are those traitors have made a Union Flag with the EU stars on it:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ah, yes, those impact assessments beloved of the 'elf 'n' safety brigade.

The problem when you start working on impact assessments is that you soon find that if you tried to address everything that could possibly go wrong, you would still be scratching your head and writing stuff down a decade on.

Better to concentrate on the positives - what you are actually trying to achieve - while addressing the negatives as you go.

That's a much more sensible approach that will get you where you want to be rather quicker.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:LOL:

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

I think a sensible approach would be to be prepared for the impact of what you're doing.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes, but what I am saying is that preparing an impact assessment is not the right way to do it.

I am sure you have taken many big decisions in your life without preparing a risk assessment first - like when you got married...!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A big difference between marriage and Brexit OB and a bit of a insult to all those married couples out there as to them getting married was one of the biggest decisions in their life one suspects.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It was one big decision in most married people's lives, I would imagine Den! Divorce is even bigger, and I shouldn't think many people do risk assessments for that either!

Neat little linkage there with Brexit, my thanks to you for that!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's not a risk assessment though it's an assessment of what could happen to each sector of industry. It seems wise to be prepared for it. Instead, as has been the plan for all of it, it's just being made up as we go along. I also wonder why the government have been suggesting there were all these technical assessments when there were not.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I wonder if Tony Blair did a risk assessment becore going to war with Iraq? Or Gordon Brown when he gave more independence to the banks

Of course not! The dangers would have been apparent to everyone in any case.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think people give too much of a pass to the Government on Brexit matters because they confuse criticising how the Government is managing Brexit with criticising the decision itself personally. It's crazy to me the lack of preparation being undertaken for something that is just over a year away.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Absolutely criminally inept when you think its one of the most important events happening in this country for at least 70 years.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They only accept the sort of democracy which suits them you see...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I haven’t heard them calling anyone who disagrees with them as traitors...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So now it’s truly the EU’s intention to create a Federal Europe, AKA, U.S.E : Martin Schulz Tweeted this intention to be carried out by 2025, any member state refusing this will automatically leave the EU. Guy Verhofstadt, Tweeted in agreement.

What a bunch of corrupted pricks. Thank goodness we are leaving.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...s-europe-2025/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Deal agreed.

No border between North and South, East or West. So are we in the customs union? No detail yet but Junker seems happy so looks like stage 2 is here.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Some information here Damien.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...int_report.pdf

https://twitter.com/rosschawkins/sta...k-markets-live

https://twitter.com/rosschawkins

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So we’re in the Customs Union for anything that trades with Ireland?

---------- Post added at 07:21 ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 ----------

The ECJ gets 8 years after leaving in which it still has oversight of EU citizens rights. More than what the government wanted but less than the 10 years we thought the EU would get.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Here is the relevant section of the agreement:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Seems a bit of a fudge but ultimately the government will not do anything that requires customs checks?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Pretty much a soft Brexit for the whole of the UK. Mirroring EU standards and regulations into perpetuity but not shaping those standards as we do now. So this is what taking back control looks like, lol.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It’s only agreed once the whole deal is. Although it now looks like either no deal or a more involved deal than just a trade one.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It’s a German politician’s view, swiftly dismissed by Merkel.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Actually the deal text says if we don’t agree a deal we’ll maintain regulation with the EU? Overall pretty happy with the agreement.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is a awful long way to go yet as this is 'Just the end of the beginning'

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So all the EU has to do is not agree to anything and we are still lumbered? Not sure where it says that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Haven't looked at the detail yet but Nigel 'swivel eyed' Farage says its 'not acceptable', so it must be a reasonable compromise !

---------- Post added at 08:30 ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 ----------

That's because Remainers are more reasonable and much nicer people Hugh ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What is in there that the EU wouldn't have agreed with long before now?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Credit to the chivalrous EU. It wins every negotiation but let's Theresa May talk as if she's won. I guess BoJo doesn't mind being sent to Iran as his red lines are zigzagged.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The wording on Ireland says that in the event the UK and EU can't come to a trade deal that we'll maintain regulatory alignment with the EU in order to avoid a hard border. We're essentially saying no hard border no matter what.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...12/1.jpg:large

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's basically kicking the tin can down the alley. The issue is the EU27 know what they want but the UK Cabinet has yet to thrash it out.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Wonder if the DUP have actually read it this time ? Suspect they'll still cause trouble down the line whenever it suits them/ they want more money etc.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So I'm right in that the EU and Ireland doesn't have to agree to any proposals and we are lumbered with their rules and regulations without having a say on anything. Everybody but the English gets a say. So much for Democracy.:mad:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

yes, I can certainly see lots of eyes swivelling furiously this morning !

We've agreed to virtually everything the EU wanted. It's clear no deal is not an option for us, and they know it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

These are the terms agreed to by the democratically elected (albeit only just!) government of the UK. Also it's a failback in case negotiations fail because nobody wants a hard border in Ireland.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What's the big deal about a hard border between NI and Ireland?

The democracy deficit is that the rules and regulations would be set by the EU. They could impose very restrictive rules and we would have to follow. Also we couldn't have our own rules, whether more or less restrictive in nature.

Being forced to remain in a customs union would also mean we CAN'T do trade deals with other countries and have to impose the same tariffs as the EU TELLS US TO.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Beyond the fact that the current, soft, border has gone a long way to contributing to around 20 years of peace?

---------- Post added at 09:41 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

Hugh, there you go, bringing facts into a debate about the EU. You know how well that normally works.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More fake news, I'm afraid. I'm sorry you've been mislead again.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not just the German politician:

Source

This is what remain could mean, not the status quo.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

How? The reason for any previous "hard" border was the IRA. Strangely enough, it is the IRA insisting on a soft border. Why?

What peace? There is still constant threats of violence, ie end of the "peace process".

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Rubbish as always and I have never been misled (correct spelling btw). :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Begiining of the end for Brexit as we know it?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/f...exit-1.3320096

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Merkel, does not run the show, like she thinks she does, Verhofstadt, wants a U.S.E and so does Juncker. (They always have).

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

Keep on with the undemocratic dreaming.

Brexit is happening ! :dozey::dunce:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Leave.EU have accused May of being a 'traitor', they really do like that label.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, it's the view of a random German politician not the EU. So why the rant at the EU then?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It’s accurate.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

At least Vote Leave understand the implications of the deal. Many Brexiters still don't.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I will say this again, EU’s Verhofstadt and Juncker also want a U.S.E. Verhofstadt ‘agreed’ with Martin Schulz controversial tweet, saying those who don’t agree, will be forced to leave the EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

One German politician and one EU chap don't represent the entire EU. Nor does it make the EU corrupt. I don't want a United States of Europe, either.

---------- Post added at 10:56 ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 ----------

She's carrying out the will of the people is she not? Been told that a few times.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What a joke it's all turned out to be . . not that we really expected our politicians to do any other than capitulate at every opportunity.

The wheels on the gravy train keep turning :rolleyes:


*goes to look at house prices in Cape Town . . may as well be warm while being shafted*

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's not though and it's becoming tiresome that those who preach about democracy call all opposition to their politics traitors.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Those who put their faith in politicians will generally be disappointed with most of the outcomes.

---------- Post added at 11:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

They seem to want their cake and eat it..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU is corrupt, nothing you say will change my mind on that, the way they disgustingly behave means they are totally corrupt.

As for your 2nd point, May has not carried out the will of 17.4 Million people. It looks like we are leaving, only in name. We will still be aligned and have to adhere to the same pathetic, corrupted regulations.

The fact that Remainers seem happy with today’s deal, more than leavers, shows what a complete shambles Brexit is going to be. Theresa the crackpot and weak appeaser. She needs to go. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Democracy?

What’s that?

There is no such thing, as this deal today shows.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Told you it wouldn't really happen Mick ! Brexit is a name only. Mainstream politicians maybe mad but they're not that mad.

I think Theresa is a mastermind, she's seen off the swivel eyed loons and totally out manoeuvred Gove/Boris. They've said what a wonderful deal it is today, and I really don't think they've totally understood it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It was never going to happen in the way that people like Farage described it. Why bother on impact studies when the future will be as it is now just a bit more red tape?
The only way to "take back control" is to re-join the EU but I doubt that would go down well in some places!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I've said it before that it's easy to criticise what May tries to negotiate but harder to suggest alternatives. Especially from Vote Leave who were full of assurances before the vote but don't seem to have any ideas afterwards.

In the end though Brexiters are still largely getting what they want. It seems the idea any concessions were made at all is upsetting them.

In other news the EU and Japan have agreed to a trade deal: https://www.ft.com/content/f0f093fb-...a-39a789c321a1

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The way it's going at the minute tis like watching an episode of spitting image

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

Well the EU might try and box the UK in now with trade deals we would go for that they would never have considered to undercut the UK

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They started talks in 2013 and had been looking at it before that.

But the EU will be competing against us now certainly.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I’ve said before Vote Leave, was a campaign, it’s objective was to get people to vote leave, it ceased to be a campaign after 23rd June 2016. So not sure what expections should be once it’s done what it set out to do.

Yes, because it’s taking the best part of 5/6 years to leave from when the vote took place, it’s really not acceptable the amount of appeasing May has done, to drag this process on and on.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I am talking about the people in it. The Irish border wasn't going to be a problem and we held all the cards in talks for a trade deal. Many of them are in the cabinet so if they have yet to have any ideas of what we can do then the decision is left with May.

However if Vote Leave is done and those leading it are not responsible for their promises then there is even less reason for why May should be bound by it either.

She has a mandate to leave the European Union and that is what is happening. The terms are ultimately up to her and her government. Posters on here didn't even want Parliament to be involved!

Alternately maybe people had a unrealistic idea of how strong our hand would be in these negotiations? The reason we have to sort out the border is because Ireland demanded it be so and the rest of the bloc stood behind them.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Stop referring to leave voters as swivel eyed loons.

You can kiss goodbye to me having any respect for Democratic principles ever again. There is none in this country. Voter apathy for life here I come and this is the real danger here, millions of people who will now never vote again and wtf will blame them/us?

The democratic decision has been shafted. So there is no point in holding future democratic processes, because the result can be neglected and ignored if it’s not liked.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Because it's not being ignored, we're leaving.....The vote didn't specify exactly what 'leave' would mean and they have no way of knowing.

For example the current path of the deal means no free movement, no ECJ oversight after eight years and we're not part of any of their trade deals.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

In name only, even Mr K says it like it is.

Leaving in a half-hearted way, not what I envisioned when I cast my leave vote.

It was said in a £9,000,000 Government leaflet the Government will act on what we the people decide. What a joke and what a complete travesty future democracy will hold in the U.K.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It was only ever in Brextremists' heads that the vote was for a hard Brexit so no democratic process has been thwarted. Both leave campaigns promised a borderless Ireland. When I asked on here how this could be achieved, the silence was deafening. As others have said, it's easier to criticise than to solve such situations.

I get that many people feel that Farage and BoJo fooled them with talk of no big payments to the EU or that no deal was better than a bad deal. It was naïve to believe this and people can only blame themselves for believing such nonsense and not Theresa May for trying to make the best of a bad hand.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Why? as a leader has to give and take IMO.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The Government aren't mindreaders. What did you have in mind?

I think it's reasonably accepted that free-movement has the biggest issue people voted on and that'll stop. Leaving the ECJ was another, 'make our own laws', and we're leaving that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So because the deal is not agreeable to some on the Brexit side that makes her a crackpot or appeaser as what would you suggest Mick?.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

But was not the referendum a democratised vote? which you thoroughly agreed with it and its result and have quoted it since on countless occasions.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

So much for democracy...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It will be a typical British fudge which will probably represent the country's views far more accurately than either the leave or remain camps ever did! ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Give and take on both sides Andrew.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Very undemocratic of them. Parliament = democracy and we should respect it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

At least Mr Osborne is happy (which is nice ;) )
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-a3714136.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The people vote = Parliament should respect it = Democracy.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Is he actually now saying something positive about the person who sacked him? That Christmas spirit must be spreading! Maybe Mick and I will even catch some of it! ;)

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

Which they did = democracy.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I wonder if he still has serial killer ambitions, which involves a freezer, large bag and a chopping knife and board, oh and TM?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So Brexit has happened! Hurrah!

So far the democratic vote has not been fulfilled. I reserve judgement until such time.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Trade talks will not start until February at earliest, EU tells UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...st-eu-tells-uk

Re: Brexit discussion
 

At last things are a bit clearer...

So Brexit is still going ahead but at least we now know what 'no deal' will aim for;

'In the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that continued regulatory alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North South cooperation and the protection of the Good Friday Agreement'

So no deal will be remaining in the SM and CU as far as I can see

Re: Brexit discussion
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42279408

So the severe watering-down of brexit has truly begun. Many voted thinking EU nationals would only be able to work and live here with a visa or work permit for worthwhile jobs we require filling. Not scrap and clothing collectors, widow and car washers living off State Benefits. This has made a mockery of those hopes.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This was always going to be the case. It's simply too difficult to kick out all the EU nationals already here, they live here, moved here under the assumption they would be able to stay here and built their lives around that. You weren't going to get the police rock up in South Kensington to kick out all the French people.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You can deport EU nationals who come here and can't support themselves.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No rush, Juncker has to sober up and the others will be rubbing their hands with glee at Martin Schulz insistence of a United States of Europe by 2025 and how they can clobber the idea in to reality.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The last three words are the most poignant. Gone are the day-dreaming Brextremists' wild talk of the Italians needing us to buy their Prosecco and the Germans their cars.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Martin Schulz has as much influence on German politics and the EU as Jeremy Corbyn. I think his influence has been somewhat overstated...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

1) He is deciding whether to keep Merkel in power. That gives him power.
2) He is far from the only one with these ideas.
2012
June 2016

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's all theatrics, Andrew. We will end up exiting the common market, customs union and the EU with its enforcing ECJ. The reference to regulatory alignment is a matter that needs to be thrashed out in detail, but remainers shouldn't get too excited about that. These will simply be common sense arrangements to ensure the border arrangements do not cause a problem. As we already comply, that should not present the UK with a problem.

What this agreement has shown is that despite all the ludicrous comments that the Government was in chaos and would never be able to reach a deal with the EU which would implement the electoral result required, Theresa May has been steadily moving towards her goal.

The 'chaos' results from tne simple fact that the government is in a minority in the House of Commons. The fact that despite this, TM has achieved the nod to go forward to the second phase of negotiations, is testament to her professional approach and determination.

Jeremy Corbyn would have caved in by now.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I admire your faith in the PM

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well I guess we will all see with the fullness of time!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Of the two articles you posted. The first was from the Washington Post that went on to say why France, Spain, Netherlands, etc. Would be nervous about more German influence and would object to these plans.

The second was from the Daily Express.... Funnily enough, no blueprint to do away with nation states has appeared yet

Both articles were looking at the possibility of a central Eurozone treasury

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh bless.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The problem about the future is that you can't prove it until it happens.

We've done phase 1. Many thought we would not.

Be careful what you say about the grand finale, there may be a lot of hat eating taking place.

We will either end up with no deal (which is not a disaster, by the way), or we will get a deal.

Continuing participation in the Common Market or the Customs Union is not going to happen.

That is what the government is determined to achieve and that is what we will get. Anything can happen on the detail, but unless those main objectives are achieved, there will be no deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well if they can set a trade deal up with Japan then it should be easier for us?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes. It does not have to take as long as it takes for the EU to set up a trade deal.

It took 7 years for Canada, and it's taken over a decade with the USA (and it's still not agreed!). For God's sake, it's not that hard!

The EU must get the agreement of all EU countries before they can agree anything. Do you not see the flaw in that arrangement?

The EU really must have a centralised government to make this work. The problem is that no-one trusts such an arrangement that takes away the power of democratically elected politicians and puts it into the hands of bureaucrats.

Really, would you?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's pretty much what Theresa May has done so you're probably right.
Charles Moore, Daily Telegraph: This Brexit deal is no breakthrough. It is a complete capitulation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-capitulation/

It is hard and the EU has been the most successful organisation at signing them. Anyone can sign a bad deal quickly but to get the right deal done takes time. I think you'll find that sorting out a trade deal with the US is not easy... as chlorinated chicken and Bombardier have shown.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Typically negative post from you, Andrew. Can you not see the positive in anything?

The point is, there is no capitulation on leaving the EU, no capitulation on the common market, and no capitulation on the customs union. These points were made abundantly clear by Theresa May last Wednesday in the House of Commons.

Where exactly are you going with this? Remember that your posts now will be available for all to see in just over a year's time.

And by the way, we are now into phase 2 of the talks! Did you foresee that?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think May has done well with the agreement she has got but as with the original post the customs union question does seem to be something she has moved on. The text promises that in the event a deal isn't reached there still will not be a harder border between Northern Ireland and Ireland or the island of Ireland and Britain. It's hard to square that with the idea we won't be in some version of a custom's union, that's sort of the point of it.

Phase 1 does so far seem to suggest a softer Brexit than we were expecting a week ago. While I think you can congratulate May on the deal struck it's a bit misleading to suggest that nothing has changed, it's there in black and white irrespective of what she said in the commons.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We wouldn't get as good a deal. 28 countries together have a lot more clout than 1 on its own.

---------- Post added at 08:25 ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 ----------

Theresa and Spreadsheet Phil are remainers, that's what they campaigned and voted for. It always was going to be a soft/cosmetic Brexit, its a matter of damage limitation. The swivel eyed loons in her cabinet are unelectable so she's played a blinder.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So what have we learned this past week or so?

We've learnt that "brexit means brexit" and "we've done shed loads of impact assessments" both seem to be phrases the government have plucked from their 'Conservative Big Book Of Things To Say When You're In A Hole'.

I would imagine some of our more hard-line Eurosceptic are sitting quietly in a darkened room hence why we've not heard much from them. Don't worry guys, just console yourselves with the thought of how much worse the deal would have been if we'd of had the soft swivel eyed lefties from Labour running the show instead of the hard as nails no nonsense no backing down Conservatives.

If it's true the PM had to ask the EU to cut her some slack so she could survive politically then the EU must be running their hands with glee about the upcoming talks next year.

Cheers

Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, no! The documents the Conservatives were referring to and have made available are industry evaluation assessments, not impact assessments, as was made clear in the House of Commons on Wednesday. What the government should, and is, concentrating on is getting the best deal for Britain.

The fact that the 'hard line' Brexiteers have gone quiet is because Theresa has successfully managed to get the EU Commission to recommend we go to Phase II, with our red lines of exiting the customs union and common market in tact. That in itself is a good achievement. I would have thought that 'hard line remainers' such as your good self would have welcomed the prospect of getting a deal with the EU. Isn't that what you guys have been obsessing over?

There's still a lot of negotiation to go and interpretations on what has been 'locked in' under Phase I to deal with, but we are on our way.

I think people should stop bitching from the sidelines and give the government a chance to deliver what the electorate voted for.

The DUP has done the government a favour, because it has highlighted for the EU negotiators the difficult job TM has in bringing all the parties together. This will clarify for Juncker and Barnier that they cannot push too hard because that will end in a 'no deal', which is not the result they want.

---------- Post added at 11:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Theresa May has not moved on the customs union issue and she would not be able to get Cabinet agreement on that. If there is a trade deal, there will be no need for a hard border. If there's not, the government has alternative plans to deal with that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think the Ireland settlement was bad news for Brextremists and Jeremy Corbyn whose chances of coming to power soon took a knock. But good news for many other people who didn't want the possibility of a hard Brexit. This text suggests to me that not only is it beginning to look a lot like Christmas, it's also beginning to look a lot like a soft Brexit:

I agree with Michael Gove that if the country does want a hard Brexit with the economic setbacks and border issues that entails, then people should vote accordingly in the next election.
I appreciate your optimism but you also need to stop believing and quoting everything politicians say and look at what was actually agreed.