Re: US Election 2016
 

You mean 9/11 but I am not sure if it's to make a wider point? I don't think anyone can begrudge America when it comes to whose benefited from NATO. It's undoubtedly Europe IMO.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Actually, the reason for NATO was to provide America a buffer to the Soviet Union.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/nato

Re: US Election 2016
 

Well yeah but by stopping Europe getting overrun by the Soviets which helps us. :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

Fair point...:D

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/...-voting-trump/

It was all too real for the kids.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I struggle to articulate how disgusted i am with that specimen and will never again use the word parent in relation to her. The more i see of so called liberals the more i don't think the word means the same thing as i was bought up to think of as liberal.

Re: US Election 2016
 

That's horrid. :(

Similar but luckily not as extreme as child abuse, some people may relate. I grew up in the north as you'd expect from the side bar. I grew up in labour household. You all get that though, it's 'We vote labour' not 'I vote labour' So all members of my household were expected to vote labour. Upon getting to voting age I didn't do that though, I voted for another party. to which I was asked why I'd do such a thing when I know it's a labour house. I dunno, maybe it's because I get to make my OWN mind up :dunce:

So not as severe but you can bet this still happens. You get a household of 5 all voting for labour when in reality it's two people getting 3 extra votes. :erm:

In the case above it's blatant child abuse but even though he's not of legal voting age, she should still be charged with peverting the course of democracy too because it's blatantly clear he'd be pressured into voting the same as her at any given time thus allowing her 2 votes.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Is this supposed to impress anyone except the gullible?

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

Michael Moore said this before the election:

Michael Moore Explains Why TRUMP Will Win

Michael Moore: Donald Trump won't do "A DAMN THING" For White Voters

He explains perfectly why Trump will (and did) win ...

.. the problem is the man who got behind these people and their real and legitimate grievances is a certain Donald J Trump: a flawed, misogynist, narcissistic sociopath.

Trouble with dancing with the devil? ... you risk being burned :devsmoke:

Re: US Election 2016
 

Climate change is what worries me most about Donald. All countries in the World agreed in Paris that its a massive threat to everyone ( when did all countries in the world last agree on anything?). If the US runs away, it'll collapse. Surely these corporate climate change deniers must realise it'll hit their profitsand families at some stage, probably sooner than they think. So greedy, so short sighted,and not giving a ***** to future generations, who will be unable to change anything.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It is to make a wider point and America has benefitted from nato, it neatly fitted in with their foreign policy, meant they were in charge rather than a supporting ally to a gulp European army and of course when they were attacked it meant nato supported them with or without that lapdog Blair. Some countries probably should spend more but let's not be daft enough to think it's only about money

Re: US Election 2016
 

NATO is a mutually beneficial alliance. I don't think America is using it as a charity but at the same time they're by the far the biggest contributor to an alliance predominately designed to secure Europe, especially from Russian aggression.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It is mutually beneficial but the way some people have gone on both here and in the media people would be forgiven for thinking it's all one way which it clearly isn't

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://www.msnbc.com/kate-snow/watch...e-811643459642

Romney being considered for Secretary of State. This would be by far the best appointment out of those rumoured to be in contention. The weird thing is though Romney is very hawkish on Russia, the opposite of Trump. Why would Trump give Secretary of State to him?

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think this can all change in December, when the electoral colleges meet.

Clinton won the vote of the Nation. Similar to the UK voting system

Re: US Election 2016
 

Oh for gods sake Arthur give it a rest will you Trump won the election and if you think there's been trouble so far watch what would happen if the election was overturned now even though there is more chance of bacon sandwiches flying onto people's plates. If you want to know the biggest problem these days it's you Arthur people who the second they don't get what they want stamp their feet have a sulk and then demand things change to how they want it. Your supposed to be near pension please start acting in a way befitting your age and get on with things.

Re: US Election 2016
 

No it can't and no she did not, because the 'Nation' is not spread out evenly across the US. I pointed out in the image I posted pages back, which you have either blatantly ignored or missed, illustrates why the Electoral College vote exists.

If it went with the Popular vote, the West/East Coast, typically leaning democratic and very heavily populated compared to rest of US, would always be the areas which decide the Election and you cannot have that because vast rural areas of Middle America's voting population would not get a second look in.

AND...

Even if they DO some how decide to vote against their own States wishes, the final decision will then go before the Republican controlled congress on 6th Jan 2017, who would then have the ultimate final decision on the Electoral College votes.

Re: US Election 2016
 

keep your friends close and your enemies even closer;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

Let's wait and see. There is little coherence in what he has done so far. Romney would make a lot of people less nervous but he is completely at odds with what little we know of Trump's foreign policy.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Trump has no policies on anything. His entire election strategy was to say what he needed to say to get votes. The policies of his administration will be those of the people he puts in each job.

Much better than the one he picked: STEVE BANNON!!!!

I tell ya THEY ARE GONNA DESTROY THE USA FOR ALL BUT THE RICH!!!!!!!!

Its very scary........

Re: US Election 2016
 

And Sessions in as Attorney General :D

At least now there is a chance Hillary might actually get put away as she deserves.

Re: US Election 2016
 

There's calls for Clinton to be pardoned anyway via Obama on the way out so I wouldn't read too far into it. That should finally bury it and leave it solely for the conspiracy nuts.

Re: US Election 2016
 

As we all seem to need some light relief: Ladies and gentlemen (ok, mainly gentlemen). It has come to my attention that it is possible to google nude pictures of the (future) first lady. How weird is that? :D :rofl:

Re: US Election 2016
 

its better than pics of Hillary ;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

Took you longer than it took me :p:

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm 'special' :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

In which case you should be on benefits :D.

Re: US Election 2016
 

The ugly side of Trump's success:

US election: The white supremacist grateful for Donald Trump

Marine Le Pen: 'Trump made the impossible possible'

Pandora's box is well and truly open ..

Re: US Election 2016
 

Trump handed his businesses to his kids instead of a blind trust and now those children are sitting in on meetings with world leaders: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/us...hinzo-abe.html

and he is still meeting business partners: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-t...-in-spotlight/

http://time.com/4578431/donald-trump...interest-list/

This is kind of thing people were apparently upset for Clinton about.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Some possible positive consequences of Trump's victory for American home buyers:
https://tranio.com/world/news/what-t...y-market_5219/

Trump is so unpredictable that some real estate investors are now worried about the local property market and hesitate to spend the money. So less investments means falling housing prices in the US which is not bad, isn't it?

Re: US Election 2016
 

No, those things were the pay-to-play for schemes, while she WAS in office as Secretary of State, he is not in office yet.

He is still attending business meetings because he is not yet the President. He is the President-Elect, until he will be sworn in on Jan 20th 2017, of course if you had raised this issue after this day, you would have a point.

As for his kids sitting in meetings. What meetings? Again he is not in office, so any meetings he is currently undertaking are unofficial. I believe Japan PM Abe, was just passing through and decided to pay Trump a visit. It was not ascertained if his daughter was actually sat there in the discussions but not surprising the Anti-Trump press, such as the NYT, would try and make something out of nothing.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You don't think that his impending position as President of the United States isn't going to give him some sway in those meetings?

What about when he is President and his company is still being run by his children rather than placed in a blind trust? What happens when the Trump organisation is seeking permits from local governments whilst he, as President, is dealing with them?

Re: US Election 2016
 

That remains to be seen. Everyone seems quick to judge him before he's got there. You never know he may surprise us all and be one of the best presidents ever.

I'm not holding my breath though.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think Trump has given us more than enough material for us to judge him on. He might suddenly reverse all that, although he is still responsible for what he has said, but his transition period hasn't given us much confidence that he will.

I think the biggest surprise will be that he means what he said. He really will spend billions on a wall, he really will attempt to make Muslims sign a registry and punish women for abortions. It's some sign of how depressing this is for some that we hope the President Elect was lying.

Re: US Election 2016
 

You mean the same type of evidence we got from our brexit and remain politicians?

Re: US Election 2016
 

The words that came out of Trump's own mouth.

Re: US Election 2016
 

As came out of our politicians.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Little light joy from Jane Moore's column in my redtop today:

:D

Re: US Election 2016
 

You can see why so many have a very low opinion of politicians in the US and UK.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Mr Trump will be the new US President. The UK will leave the EU.

Go with the facts and save yourself all that hand-wringing angst :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm not denying he is President. I am criticising his actions as President Elect.

Re: US Election 2016
 

And you're not in the least being prematurely negative about 2 democratic elections that didn't go your preferred way..

You are going to be apoplectic with rage when Nigel becomes the new ambassador to the US :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

Nah I wouldn't feel rage, I don't tend to have such visceral emotions to the news, although I do think it would be a mistake to appoint him and don't believe May will.

I am obviously negative about Trump because I don't think he has the ability, temperament or decency to be President. However he will be President and I will continue to be negative about him until he proves me wrong - I don't expect he will. I won't be the only one criticizing him and you should be more concerned about more prominent people doing so than some insignificant poster on the internet such as myself.

Although I would advise that you should focus more on the issue than the poster. :Peaceman:

Re: US Election 2016
 

I am focussing on the issue; it is incidental that you are the poster; don't be so sensitive ;). I am 'concerned' that even before either have started a new President and Brexit is being denigrated. Whatever happened to fair play?

When the facts change, I will change my opinion (to quote someone whose name I can't recall) but I won't be making my mind up before then.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It's opposition. Not really sure fair play is an issue, I am not lying about him to the best of my knowledge. My criticism of Trump remains the same as it was before the election.

As for Brexit I've posted good news about it as well but largely I still think that is a mistake as well. I want it to go well because I would lose out if it didn't.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Ok fair enough. For my part I don't feel I really know anything about President Trump. I have seen the election circus but I'm not sure what we see in that is anything to go by. I too want Brexit to work but I know there are risks so we're on the same page.

And there I was doing my best to be a nice person and not get rested again :D

Re: US Election 2016
 

Thing is with Trump we have years of experience of his views,actions and attitude ,there isn't really much guesswork .We know he hasn't the first clue how to run a country the size of America so he will rely heavily on advisers and other politicians to do the work for him while he takes the credit or blame depending on how things go.

Brexit is pure guesswork we have no idea how it will work or how long it will take

Re: US Election 2016
 

Hit the nail on the head there Martyn. Who on earth would vote for that unknown? The penny will drop soon that we're in deep 'do do's'.

As for Trump his 'advisers' seem to consist of immediate family. Suggestions that he might not be that bad after all are wishful thinking.

Re: US Election 2016
 

All Presidents, and other leaders for that matter, have advisers. Statesmanship might be a quality some do not expect in the new President. As for brexit, the Remain alternative is possibly just as much of an unknown.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Just over half the voters .Just because something is unknown doesn't mean we shouldn't do it after all the Yanks are testing the unknown as well

Re: US Election 2016
 

Actually, just under half the voters...;)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...nton/94214826/ However, Trump won the majority of the Electoral College votes, which is what counts.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Everyone in the USA is obsessing about the popular vote as if they never knew about the electoral college.

The college acts to give slightly greater weight to the votes of people living in smaller states who might otherwise be ignored as candidates concentrated their campaigning and their policy offerings on the relatively few areas of high population density across the states. Both candidates were fully aware that it was college votes they needed to win, and targeted their campaign resources accordingly.

Had the aim of the game been to win the highest number of ballots cast, then they would have played it by those rules. But that wasn't the game, and that's not how they played it.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Agreed - I was just clarifying an incorrect assertion.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I agree with the argument the popular vote isn't a useful measure in this case because people would have voted differently. Could have been more or less for Clinton. Trump is the legitimate President. However the popular vote reminds us this was a close election and it's a divided country.

I think the electoral college has become a bad system though. It exists largely to separate the voters from the college votes (i.e the electors) to theoretically act as a check in case the voters did something stupid and because it's the United States of America and the concept of Federalism was even stronger when the college was implemented. The President was more of a distant figure to them.

I have seen the image floating around about how it's there to counterweight the coasts but America didn't have an West Coast when it was set up. It didn't have the area from the louisiana purchase either. It was a small collection of states on the East Coast. It was set up in a different time for a different America.

This is also the second time it's happened in the last 20 years. It's a problem.

Re: US Election 2016
 

The reason why something is created is often different than the reason it persists. The USA has many examples of that principle - gun ownership being one of them. The continuing constitutional right to bear arms has precisely nothing to do with the likelihood of an attempt by the British to recolonise. In our own country, arguments for retaining the monarchy would be unrecognisable to someone like Alfred the Great. Both times in the last 20 years the mismatch between the popular vote and the college has favoured the Republicans. It remains to be seen whether a future democrat president will attempt to change it.

Re: US Election 2016
 

No it is not, North America has vast amounts of rural areas compared to major densely populated Cities, like Miami and New York.

The Founding Fathers got it right hundreds of years ago, because if it went with the popular vote, only certain mass populated areas get to decide on a candidate and that is not right.

Even Hillary, in her Concession speech said the US Election system is a cherished system enshrined in to the Constitution and the result has to be accepted and respected.

As I have said elsewhere in this thread, the population in America is not spread out evenly and this is why the Electoral College exists.

I find it bemusing that had the result of this Election gone the other way, Clinton wins by College vote, but Trump wins the Popular vote, the lefties would not even be bringing up this argument at all. They are trying any which way they can to try and steal the Presidency back to Hillary.

---------- Post added at 04:38 ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 ----------

Who on Earth ? Clearly Over 17 Million people did. The penny won't drop either and we won't be in do do's.

You go on and on :zzz: about the leavers being uneducated, which is bollocks by the way, but I can't understand for the life of me why, if you profess to be educated, you want to remain in a corrupted entity as the EU that will collapse at some point in the future, surely it's smart to jump the sinking ship ? Anyway, brexit thread over there >>> :rolleyes:

Re: US Election 2016
 

I was referring to Brexit ;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

It's also favored the Democrats in 2012 although it didn't change the winner.

It's fair enough to separate the reasons as to why it was set up from why it should persist. I was addressing people who invoke the reasons it was set-up.

Anyway it shouldn't persist either because I don't believe the reasons people use are valid. First of all there is the argument you cited a few posts back that it helps people in smaller states be the focus of a campaign as opposed to high population areas. It doesn't. All it does it narrow the focus to a handful of swing states but with the exception of New Hampshire these states are actually pretty big. Look at this election. The campaigns focused on Florida (4th most populated state), Ohio (7th), North Carolina (10th), Pennsylvania (5th) and to lesser extents Michigan (9th), Nevada (35th) and New Hampshire (42nd). You have two exceptions there but otherwise the states that were paid the most attention where in the top 10 population wise.

The other argument people use is that it prevents the tyranny of the majority. As has already been mentioned it prevents the election being decided by those on the coasts. However the United States already has a mechanism for ensuring equality of the states - the Senate. Why does it need two? At what point does this become the tyranny of the minority instead?

In reality of course the election is decided by a handful of voters in a handful of the states. America is so partisan than only they matter as the rest goes blue/red no matter what.

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

I doubt Trump would have taken an Electoral college defeat well either. He wasn't too happy with it in 2012 when it seemed, for a brief moment, Obama would win the election but not the Popular Vote.

By the way with your own argument the 'lefities' wouldn't be stealing the election. The Electoral College was designed in such a way that the electors can override the will of their states. This was the intention of the founding fathers. It's obviously a rubbish idea and not one I am advocating but an example of why the EC is stupid.

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

Anyway it's not all bad: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ne...n-us-kbtt33v2k

Re: US Election 2016
 

Does that mean he will wait until Brexit and he is no longer an MEP or does he plan to still get paid and emigrate to the US in the meantime?

Re: US Election 2016
 

What is bollocks is being unable to accept that someone else who holds a different point of view is incapable of being "educated"

Re: US Election 2016
 

it will be completed March 2019.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I am not saying they would steal the election but they WANT to try, that is what I am on about. This talk of having faithless electors, ignoring their own States voting intentions and voting for Hillary instead, wouldn't work with a Republican controlled congress which has final say on the College votes, would just void any Rogue college electors and insist Trump becomes the 45th President of the United States.

breaking news in US Elections
 

Breaking news from USA Elections

There have been requests for recounts in THREE STATES in the US. In Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and another state.

Its on BBC News as Breaking News. Cannot find link

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:38 ----------

http://news.sky.com/story/green-part...onsin-10672212

Also on BBC news

Re: breaking news in US Elections
 

Won't make a difference to the result.

Re: US Election 2016
 

It will. IF they recount and it is found that Clinton won all 3, then she is President.

I find it amazing that the same people who slammed Trump for not saying he would accept a Democrat win are now refusing to accept a Republican win. OK she won the popular vote but that means diddly squat in American politics.

Re: US Election 2016
 

There is no basis in fact for the recounts. There is no evidence of any sort.

As far as a straight vote count is concerned, how many extra votes did Clinton get because certain states had a referendum on marijuana at the same time? How many people in California only went to vote on the referendum, but also voted for Clinton? Should a Presidential vote be separate from any other local issues?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Just the Green party not happy so won't change anything.

Re: US Election 2016
 

sour grapes then because Trump says global warming is a lie ;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

Jill Stein is only doing this to check the integrity of the vote count in those States. She is no fan of Hillary or Trump, but she did have concerns about the prospect of Hillary becoming President and potential of her going to war with Russia, dragging the rest of the World in to a bloody messy nuclear conflict.

Re: US Election 2016
 

As if she would be complaining if Clinton had won, and certainly she couldn't have raised the money if that had been the case.

Re: US Election 2016
 

If she didn't want Clinton to win why has she opened her mouth? She got the result she wanted after all.

Perhaps she has another agenda? I love conspiracy theories.;)

Re: US Election 2016
 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...67993036754944

Will he attempt to get flag burning to be a criminal offense?

Re: US Election 2016
 

:D

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think now that ALL politicians are liars.

Re: US Election 2016
 

i am truly shocked :shocked:

Re: US Election 2016
 

Took you a lot of years to realise that Arthur.

Everything about him is a JOKE Damien.. You have good reason to criticise EVERYTHING about him!!

Re: US Election 2016
 

That is a first.:)

Re: US Election 2016
 

I have a funny idea, that within six months of Trump being in the job. Someone will try and bump him off.

Remember, someone tried to do that before the election. And he was a Brit.

Re: US Election 2016
 

How many times are you going to post the same thing, in the same thread?

Re: US Election 2016
 

Hoping someone gets killed is very pathetic and given the other option in the US election I'm not so sure the worst option won.

Re: US Election 2016
 

He's not hoping someone gets killed he's saying that someone might try to kill Trump ,and i agree .The politics in America seem extremely polarised one way or the other and as i have said earlier in the thread it does seem to be America's preferred option if the ballot box fails going on past history.

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think the fact that Arthur has mentioned 'Assassination' and 'Trump' in same sentence about 5 times now? In this thread, gives me the impression and this is all it is, doesn't mean it is remotely accurate, but I get the impression, deep down, Arthur wants such an event to happen, why else would someone keep bringing it up like it is some kind of obsession, now if Arthur was to start discussing his obsession with famous actresses, like, e.g ... Jodie Foster, then that could be troubling.

Every President will have received death threats, Barack Obama has received the most, of any President, while in office. They take every threat serious and some, if not most of the threats are from people with mental disorders.

For those who love a bit of history:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attemp..._Ronald_Reagan

Some entertainment
 

Here is a typical SHEEPLE TRUMP SUPPORTING MORON! (A few off colour words can be heard)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT5KrRGfJBI

Re: US Election 2016
 

I'm starting to think you both might be right. He's not even in office and he's going back on everything he said, people might be used to politicians lying to them but not before they've even assumed office, looks to me as well that he's starting some sort of oligarchy to with all his billionaire chums on board. I was quite glad he won as I thought he might be amusing for a while but he's just going to offer more of the same or possibly even worse

All of them do that..... THEY SAY WHAT THEY HAVE TO to get the sheep on thier side........ THEN THEY DO WHAT THEY PLEASE.......

They keep falling for the same BS!!

Re: US Election 2016
 

Not normally so soon and they don't normally rub people's faces in it, you know there's a vicious rumour that he's charging the secret service for staying in trump tower, no wonder he doesn't want the presidential salary, it's chicken feed as boring boris would say

Re: US Election 2016
 

4chan and Reddit Pizza conspiracy leads to man letting off rounds at a pizza shop.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38205885

Re: US Election 2016
 

Accommodation doesn't come free you know surely? And I doubt he is charging them personally, there would be a Secret Service budget that would pay for all those kind of things, that's if the so called vicious rumor is even remotely true and why it is vicious? If you were away on business and you were put up in a hotel, your employers would be expected to foot the bill, so this is the same for the Secret Service, their expenses would cover those costs, so what is so vicious about that?

Also and the most fundamental obvious fact at the moment is that he cannot move in to the White house, there is still the 44th President and his First Lady still residing there. What is he to do FFS? He is receiving all these death threats from people who struggle to accept democracy, so with his own protection team, he has beefed up security protecting him in Trump Tower in New York and the way things work in the World, someone has to pay for their keep, even though they are on a job to protect him.

Re: US Election 2016
 

The reason it's a vicious rumour is exactly because the 44th president still lives there, time will tell if he splits he's time between new york and a perfectly good house that 44 other presidents have managed just fine with.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Russia hacked the Republicans too: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us...smtyp=cur&_r=1

Re: US Election 2016
 

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2016-...pted-gun-grab/

I hope this guy gets in the New Years honours list. He sounds saner than most in the US.

Re: US Election 2016
 

That's a really dumb thing to say.

Re: US Election 2016
 

If you really think that, you need help.

Re: US Election 2016
 

He needs help and locking-up, not honours.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Just when i think you cannot get any more stupid Mr K you lower the bar even further if we need to point out why your comment is totally stupid there's no point really.

Re: US Election 2016
 

Bit of an Arthur comment. :erm:

Re: US Election 2016
 

What an uneducated comment that was Mr K. :nono:

In other news, it's Official, the Electoral College elects Donald J. Trump as the 45th President of the United States.

There was more 'Faithless' Electors in Clinton's camp than there was in Trumps.

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/19/506188...-few-surprises

Re: US Election 2016
 

I think the Colleges have made the worst decision possible in American history. It like having UKIP as the new Government.

Trump will cause trouble all over the World with his 'so called decisions that doesn't concern him on a daily basis' like he said the other day regarding. Daily security briefings.

The system is wrong.
Clinton WON the peoples vote. So therefore she should have won the election

His vommenst were 'Idont need to be told the same thing each day.

He will get rid of about 80% of Obamacare. He will NOT allow his countries armed service to fight in other ounctries as part of NATO

And he will carry out his wishes, and to hell with the poor of America.

It would not surprise me that there will be attempts on his life.

Re: US Election 2016
 

For once, I agree with Arthur. Sadly, much like Piers Morgan with his guns message, Brits and other countries telling America they need to change their election process will only end badly. Saying that, there is more chance of them changing the electoral process before we see a female POTUS. I don't think we will see one in my lifetime anyway.