re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sure no one is advocating kicking the ones out who are already here. I see the point though but the solution is easy. Anyone coming into this country for medical care (NHS Tourists) should pay for it. By definition the NHS should be free at the point of access for UK Citizens, not all and sundry.

As to Immigration: I favour the Australian style where you have to have work or someone has to claim you. In the case of the latter, they have to prove they can support you.

As to Trade: I don't believe copying another system is the way to go. Try to cherry-pick the best bits from them all and negotiate that.

As to Jobs: I don't believe for one second that 3 million jobs will just go. There will be at least a 2 year negotiation period for negotiating with the EU and it will probably take about 10 years to break from it completely.

As to Security: There is no way in hell that leaving the EU will either raise or diminish the threat of a terrorist attack. They are here already and can strike whenever they like. How would leaving the EU raise the threat?

As to the Economy: How will leaving the EU diminish the Economy when it will benefit to the tune of £375 bn. per year with the savings we make?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's not just a question of who contributes what in the long term though, it's the very massive and rapid population growth which is largely a result of EU migration which causes so many problems. It's all very well people having the freedom to move from one country to another but surely we have to take notice of the extra demands being placed on the NHS and as we all know it takes time to train doctors, build facilities, provide services etc. etc. etc. As it stands, we're forever trying to play catch up and frankly getting further and further behind every year. We can all see in various EU countries what inevitably happens when large numbers of people start arriving and placing demands on services etc. in an uncontrolled manner. Well that's what the EU's obsession with free movement leads to and although the naïve 'welcomes' and smokescreen of denial have long gone, the Eurocrats still don't accept that free movement is a problem.

I've always had a issue with the notion that the answer to our problems is more migration. It may well be a relatively short term benefit in some ways but if ever there was an ultimately self defeating policy that would be it. If we're taking a long term view, about what's sustainable, which we should be, we need to control population growth not the opposite because even young, fit migrants get old. If we had a system in which people had the right to work for a certain period of time and then go home that would be one thing but there's absolutely nothing to stop millions of people deciding they want to come to the UK not to work but to start new lives, have children etc. and never leave. In what way does that make sense when there are so many relatively poor countries in the EU with populations who, for the most part, could never dream of the incomes and services they can expect here? If it were a relatively even playing field across the EU it wouldn't be so bad but when certain countries become the target of huge migration we've seen what problems inevitably follow.

The flip side of the coin, in places like Greece is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/wo...oves.html?_r=0

Yes, it's true they could go elsewhere regardless of free movement within the EU too, but many are choosing to remain in the EU, mainly Germany.

Free movement is, IMHO, a disaster and one of the main reasons why we need to get out of the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

https://fullfact.org/health/health-t...-and-who-pays/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The NHS is safe, because you me and 70million others in Britain won't let it be killed off. Just like PiP , Tax credits, ect ect we won't allow it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Although I'm not an 'Outer' , I don't for a moment believe Jeremy Hunt on anything. He's obviously on the 'Project Fear' rota this weekend, whilst Cameron's roughing it in Lanzagrotty. I think the In campaign need to be careful they don't use the most unpopular politicians to make the case (not that I can think of anyone that's popular !).
3 more months of lies back and fore - the public ain't listening or believing either side anymore.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

EU exit 'would banish UK austerity', says John Redwood

The UK could end austerity if it left the EU by reinvesting the money spent on contributions in the economy and the NHS, Tory MP John Redwoood has said.

Mr Redwood, from pro-exit Conservatives for Britain, said the UK would be able to guarantee the current EU funding farmers and universities receive.

It would have £10bn left to spend on new nurses and doctors and to cut "unfair EU taxes" he said, as he set out what a post-exit first Budget could look like.

Full Story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35873996

On a lighter note I'm reminded of the Conservative Leadership Election when John Major, I think it was, gave up. The headline read:

Redwood & Deadwood.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Equally as much cobblers as Hunts NHS scare. Tit for tat, lie for lie.
Redwood would be wanting tax cuts for himself if there was any money going anyway. He wouldn't spend it on the NHS as he doesn't use it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Garbage of the first order. He'd have no choice. One man doesn't make a Party.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Problem is Brian, its the way most Tories think. Spending on the NHS won't be a priority, tax cuts for the rich will ( see George's Fudget as an example of this).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow what a load of absolute crap, one man does not demand tax cuts instead of NHS spending. I was starting to give some of your posts a consideration, the above comment shows how you may not fully understand what you are commenting on.

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

There is no problem, but as a leftie you believe the common man cannot be trusted with important decisions and must be told what to do. Go back to 1970 you'll be happy there.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed they do but I don't think Labour would let them away with it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The amazing and diverse people of The UK will not let them get away with it. Labour are currently incapable of achieving anything.

Is anyone ever going to tell Corbyns Labour that the average man now has access to the Internet, 24 hour news, smart phones, it's not 1970 anymore. News channels can tell us what they want. But the many many pro and anti establishment websites will give us a balanced view. An we can be trusted to get our news from many sources.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thanks for that. I do like that website.

I think that would suggest the NHS is not being driven to breaking point by EU migration. £1.8 billion (or let's say £2.1 billion) on a budget of around £100 billion, even if we say those that come here don't contribute a penny, isn't ramming it.

I would think the NHS is being strained far more by an ageing population. In fact diabetes alone is costing the NHS £13 billion! :arm: I didn't expect that figure when I googled it.

Personally I don't think the NHS is going too badly hit either way. The problems it does have seem to me to be far more systematic and deep-rooted than the EU and the solution to those problems probably don't involve the EU either.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

£100Billion is only around £14 per person per year in the UK, unfortunately that's not the reality. The selfish people crippling the NHS don't care as they abuse it week in and week out. The alcoholics, the smokers the "bad back" or "bad knee" brigade.

The only sad thing about the NHS is it relies on honesty. I know someone who relies on the NHS due to a bad back, doesn't seem to stop him carrying 7tonnes of fishing equipment to his Mobility car then half a mile to his fishing peg. He doesn't care about the NHS, he is selfish and nasty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hence the sugar tax. Booze, fags and bad diet are the real reasons our NHS is groaning under the pressure.

The principal downside of a health system without any form of co-payment is it removes all incentive for the users to try to avoid having to.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Eh?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

£100bn shared across the entire population of the UK is more like £1,500 per person.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Forgive me, I'm stupid lol.

---------- Post added at 21:31 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------


OMG , I seem to have done my math based on £1 billion lolol. I admit it, I apologise, I'm taking the shame. So everyone who works an contributes pays at least £30 a week to the NHS.


When you think about it, XXX unemployed , XXX below the income tax threshold, XXX paid I sickness benefits,PiP, ESA, JSA, Tax credits, child benefit ......

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And who was it that defeated the Disability cuts? Labour and the SNP.

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

£2.1 bn. can buy a lot of Doctors and Nurses and allow the NHS to run more smoothly.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just waiting for someone from the IN campaign to come on here claiming that if we had more EU migrants that figure would be lower... :spin: :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's hardly enough to make a big dent in the NHS and besides that was purposefully excluding any contributions made by EU citizens either though taxation or staffing. In the context of government budgets £2.1 billion is a drop in the ocean.

And if we don't see the perfect trade deals the Out campaign are saying we'll get and the economy does stutter then far more than £2.1 billion will be wiped from government coffers in a blink of the eye.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To be fair the 'remain' side don't need to do much, they can rely on the ineptitude of leave.eu and, to a lesser extent, Vote Leave to do their job for them.

It would be awesome if those two could pack in their urinating contest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No one from Out has ever claimed we will get 'perfect trade deals'. We don't exactly have perfect ones now. What we are saying is they can't be much worse and won't have so many conditions and red tape attached to them.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:30 ----------

Oh I don't know. I think the Tories are doing a pretty good job for Leave at the moment.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU's doing a pretty good job for the OUT campaign too. Chaos and disharmony almost everywhere you look...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The defeat in the House of Lords had nothing to do with the SNP...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6838581.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Was talking about the recent Budget.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which vote was it that Labour and the SNP defeated the Government on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35877442

Osborne dropped the disability cuts due to the rebellion in his own party, including IDS's resignation, rather than due to anything Labour/SNP did, but happy to be proven wrong, as it might mean there is an active and effective opposition.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You can keep thinking that but I'm pretty well off and I've seen no tax cuts worth cheering about. Plenty of tax hikes though. I feel like the country is being run by a left wing government, not the conservatives.
HMRC are being allowed to run around acting like bully boys, breaking their own rules, threatening and using underhand tactics to try to extract more tax from the well off.
It's got so bad that I'm going to sell half of my assets to pay off the other half (wiping out my debts/mortgages) so that I can downscale my work/income to just below the higher rate tax level because I feel like I'm running to stand still.
Screw 'em. I'm going to earn less so that I don't have to pay what feels like punitive levels of tax. It's that or sell up and emigrate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't say it was a vote. Lavour and the SNP along with Tory rebels made him think again. Labour and SNP spoke up in the Commons saying they would not support him on the cuts hence by making him think again they defeated him.

---------- Post added at 08:13 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------

No one can blame you for feeling like that. You are the exception to the rule. It's the top 1% they should be going after and those companies who profit in the UK but pay no, or very little tax.

I personally have nothing against a person who has made themselves by pure hard work and I wish them health to spend their wealth. What angers me is those who inherit and think the world owes them a living - Those born with a silver spoon in their mouth who wouldn't know a hard day's work if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.

However, if this country was run by a proper left-wing Government you would see a much fairer distribution of the country's wealth.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You'll find that his own party's dissent was the only thing to sway his decisions. To suggest that labour or SNP had even a minor role in his reversal is laughable..

Next you'll be suggesting that he'll be consulting corbyn before the next budget??

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Say what you like. The Budget would have been defeated if he hadn't changed his mind. Not laughable at all it's Politics in action. Personally I wouldn't consult Corbyn if I wanted to cross the road and I need help doing that as I'm severely visually impaired.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I presume you meant to use the word 'unfairer' :dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You seem to think that the labour party would vote for a conservative budget if it was a good budget :rofl: Labour will always vote against a conservative purely because it is a conservative budget and vise-versa. It's purely the party with a majority that has power over the budget.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Pretty sure he meant fairer. At the very top and to a lesser extent further down there are a bunch who are largely rentiers drawing far more value from the economy than they create.

The disconnect between high-end CEO compensation and average salaries, one that has grown far wider even in my adult life than before, comes to mind immediately. There are some financial services activities that are not a lot more than skimming the top off of other people's money, with those skimming being paid handsomely, too.

Nothing some unionisation, investors rather than groups on one another's compensation boards adjudicating salaries, a land value tax and some supply-side reforms and liberalisations in a few dysfunctional markets won't fix, alongside the banning of financial chicanery that achieves nothing beyond enriching a few at the expense of many.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well they have 8 times. So how come they were passed when they didn't have a big enough majority. I'll put it down to you not being awake yet.

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

No I know exactly what I meant.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd like to know what makes those who're certain that we should stay in the EU believe that what's happening across Europe right now is some sort of blip and it'll all work out in the end. It's not as though the EU is booming and everyone's united in a common cause. The absolute reverse is the case with the EU fragmenting to the extent that the financial crisis going on in Greece (and elsewhere) has been forgotten about. Isn't that just about the best possible indication anyone could have that the EU is already broken? After decades of trying to make it work, it's not as though the EU's riding high, an example to the rest of the world, is it? It's not as though they can seriously tell us we're lucky to be the EU's second largest net contributor whilst at the same time selling them less than they sell us.

Of course the IN brigade might be fully aware of how bad the EU's future looks but still believe we'd be better off inside it, in which case I'd ask why?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Both sides seem to forget Ockham's Razor :rolleyes:

Don't multiply needless assumptions. Yet that is exactly the raison d'etre of project fear.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. I can't for the life of me understand it either. Why stay in something that's crumbling around your ears? What really frightens me about remaining is the terrorists. I know we have our own but I honestly believe that remaining will heighten the risk to the UK. Hell, they couldn't even get that right. They arrest a man sure he's the one they are looking for and it turns out it isn't and the let him go, probably to commit a terrorist act elsewhere. How could they let him go if they found evidence in his flat? The best we could hope for was to charge him with a lesser offence. Apparently, their justice system doesn't work the way ours does. In the UK we would have probably found something to hold him on.

That aside, I think the EU will turn into a bloodbath before too long with all this terrorism. They appear to be leaving the UK alone so why not get out while the getting's good? If we vote to remain, will they then start to attack the UK?

Greece will bring down the EU eventually and probably cause another world economic crash. They can't keep bailing them out.

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

As there is fear being used on both sides of the fence, I wonder if it comes down to who can promote the most fear as to whether we remain or not?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well it depends what you mean.

If it's the Eurozone crisis - we're not part of the Eurozone.
If it's the Migration crisis - we're not part of open borders.

These can both still hurt us of course but only in ways that would affect us inside or outside the EU. The one exception would be if migrants becoming EU citizens but I consider that not too big a problem. Whatever happens the EU will still be there and a vote to leave wouldn't stop those problems and won't stop them harming us.

I question the material consequence a vote would have on my life. At the moment I can't see much about my live that would be improved by leaving the EU. However if there is economic uncertainty in the aftermath of leaving then that could hurt me. I work in a service industry and if that takes a hit then it's also bad for me.

A vote to leave doesn't seem to solve anything but could pose new issues. I would rather have the stability.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is economic uncertainty whether we stay or leave. The point of leaving would be that we have control over that uncertainty and can plan accordingly.

I disagree that it would make no difference to migration if we stay or leave. It stands to reason that it will make a big difference for the simple reason that we will no longer be obliged to let someone in just because they have an EU passport. Atm we have to have a damn good reason to refuse them entry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is always some uncertainty but this adds more on top. Voting in is the status-quo, the only uncertainty is that which would exist anyway, wondering what happens with the single market and all the trade deals currently in place is additionally uncertainty.

Also the idea we'll 'gain control' when everything is so interconnected is a bit of an illusion.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Since the stated aim of the EU is ever closer fiscal and political union, a vote for in is a vote for (eventually) adopting the euro and getting more political dictats from Brussels. Factor that into your thinking. :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I disagree ,voting in means embracing everything we have spent decades trying to avoid .An in vote is a vote of confidence in the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would agree. We can't keep opting out forever.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My point is not that these things don't/can't/won't affect us whether we're in or out but that they're examples of why the EU is a basket case. If that's the stability you speak of God only knows what the instability you fear will result from our exit looks like and why? What do you honestly think will happen if we stay in?

With the threat of the UK leaving gone and our negotiating position at rock bottom like it or not and sooner or later, new laws will be passed that benefit the rest of the EU and harm the UK's interests. As the second biggest contributor and the only one with any significant growth, we're going to be required to pay more in just for the privilege of keeping others afloat. They've already tried undermining the City of London and they'd love for Frankfurt to be numero uno. You need to understand that ever since we joined, they haven't had our interests at heart, they've had their own grand scheme at heart and they clearly aren't going to give that up any more than Hitler gave up ordering his model armies around as the Russians approached his bunker. There really is no greater uncertainty than putting yourself and your nation in the hands of people who only have one vision, patently refuse to learn from history and most worryingly of all refuse to change direction when all around them is chaos and they're heading towards a precipice. Having led us to where we are, God only knows what further madness they have in store for us.

For me the uncertainty of leaving is dwarfed by the certainty (based on what we can see going on around us) that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and failing concept which will continue to break apart. Now there's uncertainty for you. ;)

What you're suggesting would be like staying in a relationship with a deranged partner but refusing to leave because you're worried that you'll meet someone worse. ;) In such a situation the only sensible thing to do is to move on and make damned sure you're a lot more careful next time, learn from your mistakes and forge new relationships with likeminded people. I think the UK can do just that quite nicely but fully accept that there will be some short term pain. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So tell us what's so great about this EU. All we see is bickering and financial troubles?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we haven't joined the Eurozone or the open-borders arrangement and that will still be the case. We're not signing away our right to leave at a later date (i.e is the 'one-state' happens) and in fact I suspect that if we do vote to remain EU Referendum will join the Scottish Referendum in the list of things that never end.

I see that it would be perceived as a stamp of approval though but such symbolism is partly countered by the symbolism of having 'Britain is not part of ever closer union' stamped all over the place.

I think a vote to remain would be a begrudging pragmatic acceptance than access to the single market is not worth losing.

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

This isn't a marriage with an abusive partner though. It's more like a business deal between two companies that don't quite trust each other. However that business deal allows us to address a much bigger market so we put up with it.

My fear is that we would see our industries, especially services, stall in growth and maybe even recede as their access to the European market diminishes and we're faced with having to redo the existing trade deals which could take many years and result in worse deals. If we stay in I think things will be as they are. We will moan about the EU and occasionally get angry at some bit of stupidity but ultimately our economy will be more important.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More scaremongering, this time it's a lost generation cut off from the world FGS!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35911017

Would they be like the lost generation of unemployed, helpless youth in places like Spain, Greece, France, Portugal?...

How can anyone seriously argue that our leaving the EU would cut anyone off from the world? :nutter:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think it will far too easy for any future government to use an in vote to absolve themselves of any responsibility and sign all their powers over to the European superstate ,that's exactly what happened as a result of the last referendum we had

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't mention marriage. ;)

It may have escaped you but the EU has an effect on virtually aspect of our lives - much more like a relationship than a business deal IMHO. If it was just about business things wouldn't be so bad. It's not about trust, the problems are about their fundamental vision for the EU, including the other states they have their greedy eyes on despite already presiding over a very unhappy club of 28.

If I were a young person in the UK, I'd be far more worried about hordes more EU migrants coming here attracted by a National Living Wage which is far more than they'd ever hope to earn back at home. Now that's a certainty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Perhaps that's all people bother looking for to support their viewpoint. The benefits all get swept under the carpet so instead of trusting people to make an informed choice they expect people to agree with only their choice :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, our bargaining position will be shot and there'll be pressure to sign us up to all sorts of additional nonsense as quickly as possible.

What we'll be giving up is our right to determine our own future and we'll be entrusting our fate to people who for decades have disagreed with, objected to and resisted just about every reform we've ever suggested. They like us paying the bills but patently don't feel obliged to listen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Isn't it diminishing now? What's the difference? The risks are the same.

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

You just got that off the NEWS. Can't you make your own mind up?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You've lost me. :confused:

Yes my link is to the BBC news website like many I post. Yes, I can make my mind up and already have. I'm voting OUT.

However, I see it as my duty to point out the reasons why and to try to influence those who aren't yet sure or who're just plain wrong like Damien is... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

no it was what was said in that link by someone else about lost generation. As I read it, it came on the news. Spooky.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

lol :)

Actually I heard about it on the radio yesterday but only posted it today when I'd find a link.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the In Campaign say if we leave jobs will go? Tell that to the Steel Workers in Scunthorpe of Port Talbot. It doesn't matter if we're in or out jobs are going.

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

Well it's a load of scaremongering at best.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's scraping to bottom of the scaremongering barrel I reckon.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

3 months left to go yet. Both sides can and will use all the dirty tactics they can; they're going to scrape the barrel lower because they believe that works. It does a lot of the time, depressingly.

There's a danger the public will switch off completely or believe some of the tripe being spouted and make a decision they regret. This is incredibly important, but we're just getting negative scare from both sides. We need more of the positives of either staying or going. I believe we're better staying, but many haven't made their minds up and need facts and figures, not Project Fear.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bored of all of this now.

Can we just through a 20-sided die and if it lands 1-11 we stay, 12-20 we leave?

Be about as representative as the referendum given the level of propaganda and misinformation we're having thrown at us from both sides of the argument.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Much as I'd like to see us exit, I don't think we will, a combination of apathy, fear of change, and the realisation that new trade deals etc won't take * 5 minutes* to set up and there might be a bit of pain will be enough to make sure the IN lot get their way, I'm realistic enough to see this, what will be interesting will be how close it ends up. The Scottish one was a lot closer than I anticipated.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is the most sensible post you have made in this thread and you are correct.

Both sides are using scaremongering instead of reasoned debate.

Let's have a look at the benefits expressed so far in this thread for remaining in.

EXPORTS:

Do you really think they will stop immediately with a Brexit vote. Yes the trade deal will be renegotiated but the Status Quo will still exist until that time. Germany cannot afford it not to,

IMPORTS

Germany would not to give up that trade but we will be free to negotiate not just with our Commonwealth countries without restriction but also with the rest of the world. Don't forget trade deals are a two way street. I'll buy off you if you buy off me.

WTD

In 1974 no-one was contractually required to work more than 40hrs a week. Anything over and above that was by choice and had nothing to do with the EU (it was 2 years in the making with the involvement of the unions) as it was only the EC then, just a closer trading partner.

The 48hr limit later imposed by the EU (as it became) only affected workers who were willing to do overtime and stopped them earning extra money.

JOBS & SERVICE INDUSTRIES

Jobs will come and go as they always have. Just now we've been told our steel industry is being sold off with the loss of a few thousand jobs due to competition with China. If we had a trade deal with China there may have still been job losses in the steel industry but opportunities elsewhere. That's what trade deals do (see imports above).

Service industries not being able to recruit the best from the rest of Europe? What a load of twaddle! Industry has always been able to recruit from anywhere in the world if the skillset is not available in the home country. Just look at the Govenor of The Bank of England. He wasn't an EU resident.

I could go on but IMHO we gain nothing from being a member of the EU but have to pay for the privaledge.

Better out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

^ This.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One of the biggest scaremongering stories by the Remain Campaign is that if we left the EU, the border would move from Calais to Dover. This is now proven to be untrue. For one thing, the agreement between France and the UK is bi-lateral and cannot be effected by leaving the EU. Another reason is that the Remain Campaign are going against what Hollande and other French Ministers are saying and are still trying to use this tactic. French Ministers have assured the UK that a Brexit will NOT effect the agreement. This is from a French paper in February.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160208/woul...rder-back-home

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is, as stated before, a gross oversimplification.

Trade deals are a two way street but they are not symmetrical. They can only apply to certain industries, they can allow access to a market for one of the countries but not the other, they can require regulations, they can require laws be passed as a requirement of the agreement and more besides. They are big complicated agreements which is why they can take several years to a decade to agree.

The deal with Canada-EU excludes financial services and took 6 years to negotiate. It also required an overhaul of the Canadian law when it comes to copyright.

These things are not 'I'll buy off you if you buy off me'. We're not playing Civilization here. I know I have said this time and time again on here but then time and time again people have characterized it as 'we'll get a trade deal because Germany sells us cars'.

It is a wildly optimistic scenario. http://www.economist.com/news/britai...le-trade-winds

https://next.ft.com/content/aba86dce...b-5a6d4728f74e

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK so if we disregard everything on both sides that's only supposition regarding 'what will happen if...' we're still left with the undeniable facts of the last 40 years. 40 years of seeing how the EU works, how it responds, how it copes in a crisis and what's its long term intentions and objectives are. Take a long hard look at what they've done, where the EU is right now and where it's heading. Is an epiphany amongst the Eurocrats ahead or will it be more of the same chaos? IMHO these are the fundamental factors involved in the decision. Does the UK tether itself to this or do we do the opposite of what people like Nicky Morgan suggest and open ourselves up to the world.

Some of us have lived through what we were told the EU (EEC) would be and discovered what it was always intended to become, albeit without our knowledge at the time. Anyone who wants to remain within the EU either needs to believe it's a good thing regardless of the widespread chaos we're witnessing or that it will change for the better at some future point when all the evidence of history and previous attempts at reform suggests I won't. Could life outside a floundering, bloated, EU be that bad? It really is as simple as that isn't it?

For me that's enough.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And we still have 3 more months of lies and negativity yet to go though.:rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

1-11 we remain in the cave and get slaughtered by trolls, 12-20 and we leave the cave, get blinded by sunlight and end up forging an uneasy alliance with Vikings (chaotic neutral).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's a serious lack of true neutral in this debate.

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

Goodie.

Still, it should help generate some jobs at Full Fact.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Keep the faith and go and vote to leave. That vote could make all the difference.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'll vote leave regardless, I keep to my principles even when hopeless, I'm just well aware that I think we'll end up staying in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know what you mean. I too have that feeling. People are too scared of change and can't see the bigger picture.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or perhaps they just disagree with your/Outers' viewpoints, and have their own interpretation of the information they are receiving (speaking as a likely outer, balanced on the cusp at the moment).

If we are not careful, this could turn into a re-run of the Indy campaign, with vilification and demonisation taking over from rational discussions - we may not agree with others' views, but we should at least not denigrate them for disagreeing with us.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed I totally agree but I fear it will go exactly the way of the indy ref. In fact, it is already.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Britain won't be able to leave the EU for TWO YEARS because of biased Brussels rules, warns former head of the civil service

Britain's ex-top civil servant was today under withering attack for saying the idea of Britain quitting the EU is 'scary'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz44TQKb493


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...93/BritainWont be able to leave EU for 2 years because of Biased Brussels Rules warns

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would expect it to take a couple of years to re-negotiate all the appropriate treaties - it's not like selling a used car.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's what I thought. The two year rule would work in our favour (probably) if we vote out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Let's hope others see it as clearly as we do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That depends on what sort of car it is... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A Kiddie Car perhaps?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tata Steel state rescue likely to fall foul of Brussels

Perhaps something for Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Labour to consider if they can distract themselves from behaving like simpering sycophants to the European Union for long enough to read and absorb it.

The exact same issues would impede state support in Scotland, and it's pretty clear the SNP are big fans of state intervention in pretty much everything.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And people will still vote to stay in, even steel workers.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You're expecting joined up, intellectual effort from nationalists?

Labour, it has to be said, should know better.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/715868070577876992

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is disgraceful. What's wrong with good old British Steel?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Its price...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

.... in no small part due to the cost of power (green levy) to keep the furnaces operational.

Once again the UK is playing an international game by a very different set of environmental rules.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So why not do what China is doing? They dump cheap steel on Europe and pay for it by hiking up 43% tariffs an imports.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ask the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is because of the EU that we can't impose these tariffs or we can't Nationalise fully the Steel Industry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why can't we nationalise it temporarily, Italy did

http://www.thelocal.it/20141225/ital...ed-steel-plant

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We could, with EU permission, just as we nationalised RBS.

It's the permission bit I profoundly object to.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which is the point I made. It is because of the terms of EU membership that we can't act in the way we see fit for our own nation we have to get their 'permission'.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For a start, it costs too much beacause of UK govt imposed energy tax hikes to aid green energy production and (unilaterally) decrease carbon emissions. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because we have a Tory Government and we all know their motto - If it moves, Pravatise it.

---------- Post added at 07:08 ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 ----------

A stealth tax we, the consumer have to pay for. It seems incredible to me that the people who make these laws on taxes can actually claim back on their expenses the cost of whatever they use such as electricity, phones, transport, the very things that cause pollution in the first place.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK, so you want to blame the Tories for everything. Have you not factored in what the EU would say to any proposal to nationalise the steel industry? Once again, our ability to decide what is right for our own country is taken out of our hands.

In any case, when you look at how much the company is losing every day, I don't think that nationalisation is a sustainable solution. Think what it will do to the national debt!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not sure that a million a day can be considered a big deal in the terms of either our national debt or the deficit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All the more reason why we should leave the EU I'd have thought. And yes, I blame the Tories for a lot of what's happening in our own country. One word. Thatcher!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, PC, FRS was a British stateswoman and politician who was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and the Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990.

you could respect her achievements a little better than one word ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Who inherited "The sick man of Europe" from Callaghan's socialist failures with rubbish in the streets, massive loss making nationalised industries and the dead going unburied and took us to the powerhouse of Europe and envy of the world. We have a lot to be grateful for.