Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Indeed some privates companies have a increasing habit of deceiving to make more profits.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...illions-pounds

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Also of course just because the company doesn't 'have a policy of lying' doesn't mean it's staff feel the same way.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Maybe they do but,"they lie saying the ill are fit to work" and "They lie end of" is what i replied to and what i think is an idiotic statement

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------


Jesus ,do you lot realise how paranoid and ridiculous you sound ,.......everybody are liars and out to get you :rolleyes:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

well if they lie to say the ill are fit for work then they also lie end of

You are right everybody does lie even you of that I am sure

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Its nothing about being paranoid at all but just stating facts that some might find hard to digest due to their slanted bias and prejudice towards certain subjects and threads.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

so nothing to do with paranoia then ..........

Den you and some others on here really need to stop thinking that everybody is against you if everybody doesn't agree with you

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Interesting I don't recall saying everyone is out to get me. Still I suppose putting words in my mouth helps your point along no end.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

he thinks it does but it does not lol

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

i didn't say you did .......paranoid much ?

You do however seem to expect others to lie as a matter of course

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

yes you did as you posted it I'll let you find it.

People do lie and I'd love to live in a world where they don't to be honest.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I did not say that you think everybody is out to get you ,it is how it looks to me especially as you seem to expect people to lie as a matter of course .Also we aren't talking about people lieing we are talking about ATOS personnel lieing specifically ....note, Weenie said lieing not getting it wrong or advised incorrectly but lieing which implies that ATOS personnel are deliberately ruining peoples lives out of some sort of malicious intent ,i find that somewhat paranoid ,you and a few more of the usual suspects seem to agree that ATOS are lieing ,make of that what you will

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Marty so atos don't lie but you presumerably believe those who worked in the sector got disillusioned with how the system works came out and blew the whistle are lying ?. I'm not paranoid at all but I've seen the system first hand and I've worked as a volunteer helping people that opened my eyes a lot. For you to come on here endlessly defending a system that so many from those who worked in it to those who helped create the system and those who advised on it in the past have come out and said it doesn't work with one calling it cruel is a bit funny to me when you talk about people not seeing things as they are. I got the decision that was right for me and I still oppose atos and the way the DWP operate so why am I when by your logic I should be quiet and happy :confused:.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Way to totally miss the point . Weenie said ATOS are liars ,i disagreed ,let me clear i don't think they are liars that is not the same as saying they get it right all the time and what they do is always correct ,i am simply saying they don't lie to deliberately cause people problems as Weenie said

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

ATOS do lie they have targets to meet how could they do their job properly? The DWP denied target but an expose found that that was a lie to. You are defending a lost cause marty but that is your choice

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

you are wrong

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No I haven't missed the point at all the system is broken and atos do OK let's be nice not lie they misrepresent the truth on forms and in regard to the actual health of many they see. Now to answer your question of why would they do that as has been said before they do it to meet the targets set by the DWP which is not even much of a secret anymore and every time the DWP Denys it now they just look more stupid and more duplicitous. Think it's paranoia put in an foi request about the contract between atos and the DWP actually don't bother because even MP's cannot get an unedited version of it why the secrecy if everything is above board. I'm not asking you to take my word or opinion for anything it's all out there for you to read yourself and why people who helped create the system would now turn on that system if all was well I don't know. Disabled people are the political football between two political teams one wants everyone dependent on the state to some degree and the other despises the welfare system and hits too many genuine every time they are in unless it suits either of them to misuse it for their own agenda.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And yet despite all this lying from the nasty baby eaters roughly 3.5 million manage to claim some form of disability payment

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yes they are IMO and here is some interesting reading http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...it-work-report

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

'Nasty bay eaters'? - and yet you claim my points are idiotic?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

An article suggesting reasons why the system gets it wrong sometimes is not proof that ATOS are liars .You need to get some perspective and look at how many are successful in their efforts to be supported by a very generous state.You (and a few others) may then start to realise how difficult a task it is to run that kind of system fairly and cost effectively

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

all the proof is in this program the same one I have linked to before it is all in there all the proof you need to see the whole system is built on BS https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xw...t-filming_news

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not being on benefits I would not know the true fairness of the system but going by what I read and have heard it does seem unfair to declare people for work who clearly cannot hold down a job due to being ill, but if I were ill or disabled and ATOS declared me fit when I clearly was not fit for work due to an illness or disability, then I would class them as liars. Like I say I know there are some people who claim that should not be on benefits, but to class all the same is wrong especially when medical evidence suggests otherwise just my opinion. I do realise it must be hard and really difficult task to run a system that is fair but when the evidence is clear that someone is ill, I am at a loss as why to declare them fit for work surely this costs more in the long run...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

but how would you know ? just because someone is in a wheelchair or has cancer does not mean they cannot work ,you may think it is unfair but the reality is that many people with disabilities or serious illness do work and declaring someone fit for work when you think they are not does not make them a liar not by any definition

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But ATOS report people fit for work when they are not and later found not.

Watch the program marty it proves ATOS is built on lies but I doubt you will as it doe snot support your view

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

TBH I don't as I have never experienced being on the sickness benefit, but a friend of mine was declared fit when she was anything but and it cost the government more in the long run as they were in hospital for many weeks as the stress made there illness worse due to the fact ATOS took them off sickness benefit, then when she appealed she was awarded and backdated payments. The illness she has, she cannot really cope with stress as it seems to make it worse. I am mainly going by her experience of ATOS. They made her out to the liar when it was them who lied as they did not state all she told them, sorry I believe my friend I have known for many years also I used to work with them and I know them as trustworthy...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Putting aside the rather silly emotive terms which I don't think help either side if used no where have I seen anyone say there are not people getting benefit that shouldn't Marty in fact you'll find most of us have agreed that point. My biggest problem with not only the welfare system but a few others as well is that they are too politicised to be effective any longer. We need independent professionals to recreate from the ground up a new fair welfare system free from political interference or misuse. What is never right though be you red, blue or yellow is attack the people in a system that they have no say on being in. It really is time we demanded more from those elected to represent us instead of allowing them time and again to turn one section of society against another section to distract from the wholly pathetic job they are doing. It would also be good for the majority to research things for themselves then accept what any politician tells them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I haven't disagreed either so not sure what your point is

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It was in reply to your "3.5million" comment but I'm sure you knew that.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No, you where very vague .
My point was if 3.5 million are getting the disability benefits (and according to you, you have all agreed that is the case) then what exactly are you all moaning about,when you get down to it people do get financial help from the state ,they are not left in the gutter to fend for themselves and generally speaking most people have an acceptable quality of life on benefits .
Some of the whingers and moaners on here will no doubt think differently and be horrified that i have said that but is the case

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Atos quits disability benefit work.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/atos-quits...benefit-work-1

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5040557.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not to worry, they`ll still keep their fingers in the pie, they`ve got the childcare contract.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...o-9203256.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And they also got some of the PIP contract so lets see if they make a mess of that as well.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

For all the guff from this gvernment we now know the bedroom tax has been 6% effective well worth all the hassle, cost and misery it has caused but still they will keep it because they are more worried about being seen to go soft then do something useful with welfare.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Without putting that figure into context it's a bit of a misleading figure Rizzy .What it actually means is that around 30,000 people have moved since the HB reduction started saving over £1.3m per day which in anybodies books is a good saving .

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...d-home-figures

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26770727

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Oh it's saved more then that because for the ninety four percent who couldn't move their monthly income has been reduced by as much as £125 if they had been given that as a raise there would have been uproar but cut it by that amount and it's great. It was and is a badly thought out policy if the aim was to free up housing but as a cash grab it has been a fantastic success.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It has never been just about saving money. It is about FAIRNESS. Additional savings will come from not having to build 3/4 bedroom social housing just to provide spare bedrooms for free.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Where do you get the figure of "94% who couldn't move" from .It seems to me that you are assuming that everyone affected by the benefit reduction will want to move or even need to move .Some will make savings in their household budget to avoid moving and also don't forget that a lot of people in receipt of HB are working so may a more flexible budget to work with .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Where do you get that for on given the enormous shortfall in social housing of all sizes?

Fascinating how interested the government are in fairness when it comes to those on lower incomes and welfare and how utterly disinterested they are in it when it comes to higher incomes.

This government should feel so proud. For all its work the housing benefit bill continues to rise and the majority of new claimants during this parliament are in work.

Some might say a fairer thing to do is invest in social housing and allow housing associations and councils to borrow based on future rents, bringing costs down and leaving an asset rather than continuing to shovel our money to landlords.

---------- Post added at 12:14 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

I thought that was the idea behind it? To free up larger properties for families?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Two of my friends have been able to either get a council house for the first time or move to a larger one now that properties are being freed up.

The thing is, this policy has been in place for years for those in private rented accommodation.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The fairness is that it is something that those in the private rented sector have had to deal with all along. People keep bitching about too little 1/2 bed social housing being built. Although in the area around me, quite a lot of 1/2 bed social housing has been built. It has been all too easy to put people in oversized housing, because the tenants didn't care about how the rent was going to be paid. The housing associations could build loads of unneeded 3/4 properties. Now they can concentrate more on building 1/2 bed properties, with demand for 3/4 bed ones being supplied by the ones freed up by people with spare bedrooms.

Housing associations are financed by central government and recycling rent money.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It's certainly part of the intention but you can't force people to move if they are up to date with rent

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

getting some on here to accept that is proving very hard

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 ----------

Exactly , this policy may actually focus some LA's and HA's in managing the stock a bit more efficiently

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Housing associations are also financed through borrowing. Borrowing is their main source of funding for building new properties.

Of course they're forced to sell properties off at substantial discounts with, contrary to government claims, a replacement rate on right to buy of about 1 to 7 rather than 1 to 1 but that's a different story.

Here's hoping it doesn't go the same way the private sector has, with family homes in tremendously short supply because developers went crazy building small flats. Due to high cost of land that was the way to get the most profit.

I'm not convinced, in any event, that we should use the private rented sector as any measure of what is fair. Our PRS is a disaster by any sensible measure.

---------- Post added at 14:36 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------


Perhaps another good way of assisting with management of stock would be to stop forcing social housing providers to sell stock into the private sector on substantial discounts.

Over 1/3rd of all right to buy has found its way into the private rented sector.

I entirely agree the social housing providers could do better with their stock, I'm merely of the opinion that enabling them to build more would be a far better way to both improve the availability of social housing and reduce the housing benefit bill.

EDIT: All this said, as we're talking about fairness perhaps you guys could enlighten me on why this only affects people of working age?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think that's spot on ,no way should the LA's have been allowed to sell off all the stock without replacing at least some of it (hindsight is a wonderful thing ;))

I must admit that i was surprised that the biggest offenders of under occupying have been given exempt status ,namely pensioners .I would have sooner that disabled people be given exempt status and pensioners given the reduction in benefit .I have today fit 10 windows in a 3 bed house occupied only by an 80 something old woman and there where bungalows built 3yrs ago behind her street on the grounds of an old school specifically for pensioners

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

-allowed +compelled.

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

Haven't pensioners been exempted from most of the 'austerity' measures? Not sure why this would be surprising. An absolute majority of pensioners vote Tory and they have the highest turnout.

Fairness is for those who wouldn't have voted Tory anyway.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Don't worry Marty. she might snuff it soon. and a nice big family can move in :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Actually, in 2010 it was 44%.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/pais/people/greaves/wellington_college_talk.ppt

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That is probably the thinking behind the exemption, 'natural wastage' would vacate the properties anyway and no way would a council move a pensioner into a 3/2 bed semi so in a relatively short number of years the problem of having elderly people hogging large council houses will solve itself naturally

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Thanks - let me find the source for the figure I quoted. It refers to 'voting intention' rather than 2010's results, my bad there.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Housing benefit changes distress disabled people, say MPs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26843152

The problem is in its implementation it is hitting the wrong group too much.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But that's ok, because it saves the tax payer £1m a day.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

l did not say it was okay Jimmy because in my opinion the policy was ill thought out and rushed as most policies are to save money.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think he meant to quote Martyr from http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35...-post1150.html

(Probably).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I still want to know where all these smaller properties are to move into? Also I am pretty sure most supporting this bollocks policy have no idea how difficult it is to move from one property to another anyway. Its all bidding wars nowadays

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Exactly as there is a acute shortage of smaller places that means that many could not downsize to a smaller place even if they wanted to.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The whole policy is ill-thought out and badly implemented and the consequences critics cited, namely few people moving and many in rent arrears, have come to pass.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm tying to get into a bigger place for medical reasons but no one seems to want this one bedroom flat.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I overheard a funny conversation on the weekend regarding benefits.

I went into Wetherspoons at about 08:45 Saturday morning for some breakfast, one of the usual groups of circa 09:00 drinkers started to arrive, they ordered their Brains Dark, Guiness etc as they do every day of the week. There were 4 of them sat down as I was eating my breakfast and they were discussing a mutual friend, it went like this:

I don't know what he does with his money, he gets the same benefits as I do but he doesn't come out. What the hell does he spend it all on.

I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to laugh or cry:mad:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

We've just set up a standing order to pay Mrs G's sister £60/month to help her out.

I know there's plenty out there who would expect her to move to a one bedroom property, but she's being offered nothing but flats in 'scruffy' areas (sorry if I sound like a snob!).

Another thing, she's been living in the same house for nearly 20 years and considers it to be her home. I suppose she's lucky we can help, because she couldn't afford the cost of moving house anyway, how are people who are struggling meant to move their stuff - by foot?

I tend to agree that cutting benefits is the easy way out, I think people would be more accepting of cuts if it looked like the Government were, for example, actively trying to reduce the long term tax gap which seems to have been bobbling along year after year at around £35b/year.

Cheers

Grim

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Escapee if you could get some details on those people because i don't drink and sure as hell couldn't afford to go to a pub eveyday i'd ask them how they manage it. With rent and council tax increases this year we'll be down by about five quid a week the rent alone was doouble what benefit increase i got so totally freeze benefits please i'd be better off.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Never had a problem with providing a typed out diary from the computer, because my handwriting is so bad that they would never be able to read my handwriting. Today get told that you are not allowed to do a diary like that in future, you MUST use the UJ site to record your search.

So I said what if you don't have access to a computer, the internet, are having trouble with it or just plain don't want them to have access to it. Oh you get sanctioned depending on why you haven't complied. Could be 2 weeks, could be 13 weeks. Got no issues with having to do a certain length of time searching every week. Certainly have no issues with doing training or attending job fairs or even having to go the JC every week. What I do object to is the fact that a typed diary has worked for me the last however long and now I HAVE to start using a system that doesn't record my job search activity. I put it in, save it and then login a few hours later and it is not there anymore. Bloody joke.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What's UJ?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Universal Jobmatch. Been having trouble with it since Christmas, and I email them every day and never get a reply back from them. Useless.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

These can be found in the Ernest Willows Wetherspoons on City Road Cardiff, they are in every time I go in there for breakfast or an evening meal. I go in most Sunday mornings and often pop in during the week for breakfast (Less alcohol) if I'm working from my partners house.

My local one, The John Capel Hanbury in Pontypool is exactly the same but I know the regular ones in there are getting the alcoholics allowance. The Sirhowy Wetherspoons in Blackwood that I sometimes go to for lunch with work colleagues is the same.

Since the benefit cuts the numbers have dropped, but there still seems to be the core who start their shift about 9am, completing their shift around 9pm when they give up gripping the bar with their fingernails.

In my local one a couple of years ago I overheard one explaining to another how to get the alcoholics allowance.

It was something like:

Do what I did, go to your doctor and tell him you drink x bottles of the strong cider white lightening etc every day, he will give you a note.

I am sympathetic towards people who are genuinely unable to work, also the situation mentioned by Grimupnorth where people are expected to move after spending a large part of their lives in a home.

What I am completely against is what the previous government did making it far too easy to claim benefits for those who choose not to work, and throwing benefits at them in an attempt to meet child poverty targets they set themselves.

The bottom line is, I don't believe any individual or family on benefits should be financially better of than someone who has a full time job.

An interesting example.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...-given-6905668

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Escapee, here's another story from the DM, meant to get the heart pounding and the blood boiling... :grind:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-workxxx.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I agree there ae some on benefit that shouldn't be and i also don't believe lifestyle illnesses should be classed in the same way that medical illness through no fault on the part of the person is. As for immigrants i thought they had sorted that and no benefit could be claimed for a periofd of time after entry to the UK or was that just a plan that never went anywhere ?. No one sensible is saying the welfare system doesn't need an overhaul because it clearly does but we need a real overhaul not the the rubbish this coalition is doing which is actually not hitting the hardened fraudster at all.

I'd also like to see an end to private companys being handed multi billion pound contacts to prrovide a lousy service and for total government waste to be cut before draconian measures that hit the genuine and needy in our society. Preferably the welfare system would be overseen by an independent panel that had to explain their performance and remove the politicians and their misuse of the system totally. Osbourne is no different to any other politician as soon as he see's an advantage to putting people on welfare he will as many have before him.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You might find this interesting.

Non means tested Disability Benefits were one of the most controversial, and subsequently contentious, types of benefits that the Tories introduced.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Good on you, long before people got use to sucking on the nipple of the state, families helped each other out.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

A few quid.

compared to the top people of the state and their friends screwing millions of pounds from you and I and everybody else. the latest fraud being Royal Mail shares.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

We're more than happy to help her out.

Cheers

Grim

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Dying Merseyside man was told by benefits assessors ‘you’re fit to work’

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...55QGg.facebook

Was he was sucking on the nipple of the state?.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

They never seem to learn anything.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It was hardly just days later. And even then it might not have been related to his condition.
That is something that could happen to any of us.


The money stopped because he didn't appeal.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think Pierre's point was that not so long ago family helped other family members out who where suffering hardship ,now it seems the first port of call is the state .

Your example is another over emotive story spun by the press to tug at heart strings when in fact the man himself refused treatment and refused help from the state ,it should also be pointed out that 2 years ago (when he had his assessment) he may have been capable of work in some capacity .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I wouldn't take anything as an indication that families aren't helping each other out anymore. That's just not newsworthy and there have always been those who milk the state.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The difference between families then and now has changed a lot as many family members have moved away Marty and Pierre and as such many families are not as close as they used to be in more ways then one.

We must not stereotype benefit claimants into the same bracket of they are all scroungers and yes there are some who do use the state as a first port of call and indeed we must come down hard on those people but there are also many out there who get no help from the state at all who do the arduous job of looking after their ill and disabled family members themselves and are too proud to ask the state for help but need help there are also others who because of their illnesses and disabilities who do get help from the state and they are very gracious to receive that help as l am myself because of my own illnesses and disabilities as we need help at home with aids and help in getting around whether it be with wheelchairs , scooters , disability aids or a mobility car.

Yes the man might have refused treatment but l can assure you that the condition he had coupled with a need to have a heart transplant meant he was in no state even two years ago to do any type of work at all.

Having been through the appeals process myself l can assure you that it is very stressful for the person involved and thus many are not willing to go through 9 to 12 months of deep stress as they go through the unwieldy appeals process.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The appeals process consists of writing an appeal letter, continuing to supply notes from GPs and waiting, not running a marathon every week.

The tumour would not have been identified at the time of the ATOS examination(December 2012) and may not have been identified at all before his death,

The picture is very misleading as he died aged 47, and doesn't look that in the picture.

If his condition had deteriorated then he could apply again.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Generally speaking though families tend to stay in one area ,yes there will be exceptions ,mine is one such family ,however we do not live in a large country ,we live in a country where it is possible to get from one end to the other in a few hours

I do not believe anybody has done that ,it is getting extremely tiresome when you try to close down any type of debate by saying "we are not all scroungers"

Lots of things in modern life extremely stressful generally people deal with it ,disabled or not .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The Gary Barlow tax avoidance case has put things into perspective. According to Channel 5 this morning:

Each year, tax avoidance costs the UK economy £69.9 billion pounds.

Each year benefit fraud costs the UK economy £5.2 billion pounds.

Try and guess which is covered more in the newspapers, has it's own free hotline to report wrongdoers, has numerous television programmes made about it etc etc...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yet even on this board there are some sticking up for the tax avoiders saying it's not illegal. It doesn't need a genius to work out that the system favours the rich.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

True, but if I worked hard to earn millions it's a kick in the teeth having to give 50% of my earnings to folk that can't be arsed getting of their backside

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Holy crap, £5.2 billion is stolen by benefit fraudsters, seriously the benefit system needs looking at. I see tax avoidance differently to benefit fraud.

Gary Barlow will of paid £millions in tax and donated £millions to charity. Benefit thieves steal from those in desperate need. Vile thieving ****.

---------- Post added at 08:00 ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 ----------

The system perhaps favours those that work hard or have a talent and get themselves rich. Obviously some are born into wealth.

On this board anything and anyone can be slagged into the ground. But god help us if we mention benefit fraud.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Benefits are a small percentage of what tax gets spent on. There are plenty of other areas where the government wastes money.

I hit the highest tax bracket 15 years ago and hated as much as the next man the fact so much was taken from my salary. Before then I let someone else be on call sometimes to stop myself hitting the limit and end up with less money due to the extra tax percentage. So doing things to maximise your cash is natural but the extremely wealthy go way beyond that with their avoidance and it's not right they end up paying such a small percentage of tax compared to someone on an average wage.

The playing field is unbalanced in favour of the wealthy.

---------- Post added at 08:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 ----------

It's because those in genuine need or ill get lumped together with the fraudsters and whenever benefit fraud is discussed, which demonises those who have done no wrong.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No one demonises genuine clamaints, but benefit fraud is vile and disgusting. Workers/tax payers do not begrudge the benefit system. Once my tax is paid its paid, I'm not getting it back no matter what it is spent on. Even if the benefit system was shut down you just know taxes wouldn't be reduced.

What annoys everyone (not just workers) is benefit fraudsters who literally stop the NHS affording life saving/life extending drugs, they stop disabled people getting the care and help they need. They prevent social services having the funds to help everyone who needs help.

Thats why people despise benefit fraudsters and cheats, it is about as low as someone can get. Literally preventing someone getting life saving/life changing help. When someone is prepared let others suffer in pain or go without the help they desperately need just because they don't want to get a job, well that is vile! Like I said no one begrudges the system, we have to pay the taxes wether there is a benefit system or not, we just find it hard to believe another person would happily sit back and take funds causing others suffer knowing they are partly to blame.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Most of the welfare bill goes to pensioners. Next stereotype please.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What a load of tosh. You will blame a benefit fraudster for a lack of NHS funding when tax avoidance takes ten times more cash away from the coffers. Imagine all the extra lives that could have been saved if they had paid their tax. That is using your own logic.

Fraudsters are indeed **** but get some perspective :rolleyes:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

So £5.2 billion is 'literally preventing someone getting life saving/life changing help' while you've no comment on £69.9 billion.

The NHS's funding isn't going to miraculously go up even if welfare fraud stops right now, it'd be used to plug the spending deficit or urinated away on one of the government's pet projects.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The Conservatives are solely responsible for the cuts to the NHS they are making.

Add 120 Lords in to that equation and then rethink why they are destroying the NHS.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm sorry but benefit theft will prevent people from getting the help they need, avoiding tax is one thing. But actively stealing from a fund put in place to help the sick, disabled and those in need is lower than low.

Tax avoidance is also wrong, but benefit fraud really is stealing from the sick and ill. An do you really think this £69 billion will go to the welfare budget? No like you said it will plug holes. So stealing benefits is still a bigger issue.

Cutting the £5.2billion direct theft from the welfare budget will help those in need a lot more than stopping tax avoidance. Welfare spending will not get a £5 billion funding increase if the £69billion is clawed back. Stop the fraud you effectively give the welfare budget an extra £5billion a year.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

exactly people seem to think all the money goes to the sick and unemployed. Well those who think that are morons.

As Ig says the state pension as I have stated countless times and got the same well we earned it response costs tens of billions more than the sick and unemployed

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

avoiding tax stops the country getting what it needs stealing from the sick and ill elderly and poor

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No it doesn't, stopping tax avoidance helps lower deficits but the welfare budget will not rise. Its fraud crippling the NHS and the Welfare system.

Out of the £5.2billion fraud the welfare system suffers every year, how much is down to pensioners fraudulantly claiming a pension? I cannot believe people would begrudge pensioners a pension. The benefit system has bred a generation of hateful, selfish over entitled arse holes.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Clearly that's part of the reason the Government continues to increase the pension age. I agree, it's disgraceful.

And I thought my opinon of MPs was low.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No matter how many times I read the above it makes no sense. You seem to think there's a ring-fenced fund for welfare and without fraud there's more money to go around to everything else.

Welfare isn't a fund, it's a pay as you go from incoming taxes. There is no fixed welfare budget which all welfare and fraud comes from, it's paid out of current tax revenues. If the welfare budget comes in lower than expected for a year the left overs don't get redistributed to claimants.

What completely undermines your point is that the government is going in hard against welfare fraud and overpayments. The savings are going to plugging overspend across government, not to providing more money for the NHS or care.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

the tax avoidance money could be put anywhere it does recovered tax would not automatically go to paying debts

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Me neither, which makes it all the more bizarre that people jump up and down about the welfare bill when most of it is going to those who have retired.

As far as those who are hateful and over-entitled go the generation after mine is going to be the first in a long time to be worse off than their parents so it seems they aren't actually entitled to much.

However intergenerational fairness probably isn't something we want to get into too heavily, especially as the end result is that those of maybe my age, just about, and younger are getting a thorough shafting to ensure that older generations get higher pensions, their houses stay expensive, they can charge high rents on the buy-to-let, etc.

As far as entitlement goes the 'entitled' generation is, by pretty much all measures, abundantly clear.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

where did this 5.2 billion figure come from? that would mean £1 in every 40 ish claimed was fraudulent I did not think the figure was that high

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-...-benefit-fraud figures here state its 1.6 billion including tax benefit fraud

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 ----------

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...spective/15796 figures here says 2 billion and a nice little graph to put things into perspective

---------- Post added at 10:28 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/the-cost-of-benefit-fraud dunno about this site but this puts it even lower

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-tax-avoidance 0.7 % of total benefits overpayment due to fraud 1.2 billion not including tax credit fraud

the only place I can find figures so high is a propaganda site

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

DSDNI is a department of the Northern Ireland government, which is why its fraud figures are so small.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

arrr that makes sense :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

To be fair though. with tax. they don't know exactly how much is due in. they can only estimate.

but when you compare the losses in tax and the welfare bill. the welfare bill is insignificant.

but to blame everything to do with this country and it's budget solely on the unemployed, and their welfare. is utter bonkers.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yes benefit fraud is wrong but it has given the government a platform to shift focus and the blame for the countries woes onto the poor sick and unemployed and a hell of a lot of tax payers have fallen for it

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That number includes I suspect errors as well as fraud.

Either way if we're dealing with people losing out on their care if we eliminated all errors and fraud from the system, over night, and that includes errors where people aren't receiving what they're entitled to, the welfare bill goes up.

Damn selfish entitlement generation, not claiming what they should be.