Re: The existence of God
 

I am atheist and for one have read most of the posts on here and have also posted on here but never as you have stated above, but I am aware of who has posted negatively without any real arguments coming through in their posts.

Re: The existence of God
 

Any analogy that suits could be used Russ.

that's what happens when you discuss religion. some people discuss the logic of it all, and if this and that were the case then how did that and this make it possible. nobody really has the answers. you don't have the answers. the answers you have are what you believe. and that's where it all goes the way it does when discussing religion. there's a fullstop on being able to answer a logical question.

Why then? because I believe it to be. is the discussion when involving both sides.
Why then? because it might be. is the discussion when involving one side.
Why then? is never asked when involving the other side of the one side.
that is just the way it always goes, and will never change I don't think.

Re: The existence of God
 

are you now stating that any one who disagrees with your point of view is a foul mouthed drunk ???

Re: The existence of God
 

For a Christian you've got some serious anger issues and may I suggest you take a good look at your faith as your faith has obviously taught you nothing.

Even I know it teaches 'forgiveness' and I doubt there's a clause that makes this inapplicable to angry welsh men. Making constant digs and snide comments at myself and others will get you no-where apart from making yourself look like an argumentative git.

Re: The existence of God
 

...yes, that's obviously what I'm saying..... :rolleyes:

Firstly you've never seen (and never will see) me angry.

Secondly you don't know a tenth of enough to be telling me anything about my own faith, you've demonstrated that so many times I've stopped counting.

Re: The existence of God
 

[QUOTE=Russ B;34774105]...yes, that's obviously what I'm saying..... :rolleyes:



well i just thought I'd ask ,its always best to be clear on these things , are you planning an apology any time soon ?

Re: The existence of God
 

Excuse me, I think you'll find you have done nothing but badger Russ, twist his words and mock his beliefs throughout this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

Do you know what the word 'analogy' means?

For what?

Re: The existence of God
 

a few atheist who perhaps have had a bit too much to drink as they'd clearly left their manners at the door.

Re: The existence of God
 

Analogy:

Re: The existence of God
 

And all you've done is troll and make snide remarks for your own sick pleasure.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think what he's saying is Russ, is that you chose your analogy to describe what you see as happening. you chose to include the drunkard. why he can't be sober I don't know :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

I hate to bring facts into this, but may I point out -

Re: The existence of God
 

I could do the same but I cannot be bothered playing your silly little immature games.

One of the most important days in the Christian calendar and you're all sitting on the internet making snide comments, arguing, and generally getting cross. Very sad.

Re: The existence of God
 

not a single mail drop or knock on the door this week -i guess the faithful are all busy celebrating [christians that is ] there's usually postal invites to various churches on the door mat .

Re: The existence of God
 

I never thought of that until you just mentioned it! I haven't had anything either, and I get that kind of stuff all the time. :confused:

Re: The existence of God
 

I have to actually agree there, and of course you must include yourself in that comment DRZ, as I will include myself also, you were not going to apologise for your posts, and indeed you do not have to, even though some were a bit dodgy at times!;)

But the olive branch in your own way was given out and not accepted, I have respect for you for that.

Our most important day was Nisan 14(Thursday)



Go get some sun folks!

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------




If I knew where you lived I would of mail shot you and papa!

Re: The existence of God
 

All talk and no action ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

As you know Gary, actions speak louder than words!
In all walks of life:)

Have a good day, I'm off back to do some gardening now!

Re: The existence of God
 

Except for the fact that you could not find (imho) any posts on this thread being denigratory towards atheists (in general - there may be comments about your confrontational approach and aggressive perjorative attitude); strange, I thought you were proud your posts being based on "facts, logic and reason" ;)

btw, trust me, I am not getting cross, I am being very amused, especially by the fact you, the denier and decrier of faith, telling those who practice it how to practice it. :D Must be that "logic" thing again.

Peace be with you. :)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2009/04/46.jpg

Re: The existence of God
 

There were a few, but I think people were just baiting for the sake of it, one person in particular will post up something for no other reason than to invoke a reaction, then they'll disappear for a few days, things quieten down and up they pop again, just to stir things up. :(

Discussing religion on the internet always end in a stalemate and usually a locked thread. Some people find the arguments highly amusing!

Re: The existence of God
 

Just the facts, ma'am. ⓒ

ⓒDragnet

Re: The existence of God
 

did you read that link or am I missing something?

Re: The existence of God
 

"Webb was a stickler for accurate details"

Re: The existence of God
 

I posted as an agnostic and you chose to imply that I'd copied the text from a website. You could have challenged the points made in the post, however, you took the easy route of trying to discredit the post, I doubt you even read the post fully as you seem to have missed that I had said "as an atheist". You then continued to badger Russ!


Playing the victim and looking for a scapegoat is all I have to say.

Re: The existence of God
 

Fantastic testimony - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7995676.stm

Re: The existence of God
 

i'll take the defensive rebound as a 'no'....

Re: The existence of God
 

No one can take away the fact that in general, modern Christians are some of the nicest people you can meet and are the only people willing to help someone down on their luck.

A very good friend of mine was an alcoholic when he left the Army ... He in his own words wasn't a very nice man and was stationed in Northern Ireland during the troubles. He found God and is now a devout Catholic. He goes out of his way to help ANYONE who needs help, is non judgemental and is genuinely a bloody nice chap.

We have an understanding that we just don't mention religion to each other and 8 years on we're still good friends.

This leads me on to say that the only reason this kicked off is because we're sat hundreds of miles apart, hiding behind a keyboard. I'm guilty of this, as is everyone else who's participated in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

Take what you want, where you want, whenever you want, chummy. ;)

However, in reality, I was pointing out to our rabid atheist chum that he was not providing any facts to back up his assertions, and highlighted this by a quote from the TV program "Dragnet", featuring the actor Jack Webb, who allegedly had a catchphrase "just the facts, ma'am", when questioning suspects/witnesses who waffled on but provided no concrete information, thus the illustrated by the statement "Webb was a stickler for accurate details".

Hope that helps. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Please...please, stop trying to speak for other people. Kudos for the admission but it's not a good idea pressuming to speak for others.

Re: The existence of God
 

I speak for everyone on here ... You Russell wouldn't have said some things you said to my face, and I like wise to yours.

Everyone's hiding behind their little plastic keyboard like little anonymous internet warriors.

Anyone can be a hero from a hundred odd miles away.

Re: The existence of God
 

You certainly do not speak for me. I'm seriously good at doing that for myself.

Re: The existence of God
 

OK this is getting very very silly.

What I've said in this thread I've said to people face to face, on the phone, on the radio etc plenty of times over the years. I've had these types of discussions with countless people before you, louder, nastier and some nicer, and no doubt I will in the future. I have not argued with you once, I have simply countered and pointed out the flaws in your rational. I do it and lots of others do too.

(my birth name is Russ btw)

Re: The existence of God
 

Assume you speak for me if you want - you will remain a permanent member of my 'ignore' list whatever you say ...

Re: The existence of God
 

And all I did was point out that what you believe in is illogical and irrational and provided the evidence to back up the points... In my opinion.

Where is this getting us? Back to point 'A' again. Off we go AGAIN. :(

---------- Post added at 23:20 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

I'll PM you if I see Russ posting anything controversial!!

Re: The existence of God
 

Now we're getting somewhere! Finally.

You are welcome to hold the opinion that my beliefs are illogical, irrational etc and I'd go so far as to fight for your right to hold that opinion. Up until this point it was not the angle you were coming from.

I tip my hat to you.

Re: The existence of God
 

If someone believes that upon their death flying monkeys will swoop down and carry them off to neverneverland as long as they live their lives by a set of rules, principals, beliefs or anything else you'd like to name it, then that's what they believe. They have faith it will indeed happen.
Who are you to slate them for it?

Re: The existence of God
 

As long as it isn't forced onto me, they can believe in what they want to. ;)
They way that he has gone about "debating" has done us atheists a dis-service.

I am breaking a rule here, posting in a religion thread ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

absolutely - however I no longer care whether the poster you are replying to assumes the monkeys involved have shaved or hairy armpits when forming the reply, the responses so far have abdicated all claim to reason or logic - which is especially galling when claiming 'science' as the fabric of the reasoning...

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not bothered by what anyone believes in. This was a debate and everyone put their side across. Nobodies going to change their mind and we all knew that.

Apart from Scientology ...... but that's another day.

Re: The existence of God
 

I just can't figure out what it is about my faith that makes you feel so threatened and causes you to be so aggressive towards it.

Re: The existence of God
 

Because you conduct yourself as an Christian internet extremist, instigating argument with all and sundry who dare to disagree with you.

Re: The existence of God
 

your right imo most Christians are nice people and offer Christian charity/help

and ask nothing in return, and that's the way it should be ,we should all try to help out each other[you don't need to be a Christian or follower of any other religion to be nice to your fellow man ] the reward is the smile you put on someones face .
but i have to say Christian charity/forgiveness is an alien concept to some "Christians " there definitely not all cut from the same cloth as the original.

Re: The existence of God
 

That is a good point,i think its true that its all down to free will

Re: The existence of God
 

So this was the post that started it all off, so long ago I think we all had forgotten!;)

Re: The existence of God
 

That's just utter rubbish. We've had these discussions for long before you showed up and you're the first person to make such a silly claim. Where have I done that, can you show me any examples? Of course I know you're not going to come out with a "There are so many I can't be bothered" type of answer which you've done before.

I've got a feeling you simply have a stereotypical view of Christians and just want to change and manipulate replies so you can aim it at us.

There are athists who have been on this forum for a significantly longer time than you (but obviously you were a long-time reader before you starting posting) who have disagreed with my beliefs. I'm sure they'll be surprised at what you've just posted too.

Re: The existence of God
 

Once again "facts, logic and reason" leave the building.

This is blatantly untrue, and you are a out and out liar, sir.

Russ robustly defends his views, but has never in the two and half years I have been on CF "instigated argument" on religion (btw, before you accuse me of being Russ's "chum", we disagree quite a lot on religious issues).

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

Apologies.

Re: The existence of God
 

Au contraire, Blackadder ... ;)

I've had many of the same conversations I've had in religious threads on this forum down the pub, out walking with friends, in the Students' Union, in the middle of a cross country running event (if you knew me, you'd understand that me taking part in a cross country running event was far stranger than me arguing about Creation with one of the other runners, somewhere high in the Lake District fells) ...

Re: The existence of God
 

Not scared just bored as it's the samo,samo arguments that I've seen for the last 5 or so years...:rolleyes:

And now I have to beat myself senseless..:bsmack:

Re: The existence of God
 

OK, here are a couple of quick questions (on topic to boot!).

Does the fact that most shops were closed on Sunday indicate that the Christian religion is inextricably interwoven into British society? If so, does this mean that belief in the existence of God is necessary for this society to function effectively?

Re: The existence of God
 

1. Yes
2. No


You should have had a tiebreaker question as well. There might me a lot of right answers;)

Re: The existence of God
 

1) Yes (but was, not necessarily is)
2) No

Re: The existence of God
 

Where you looking over my shoulder when I was answering;)

Re: The existence of God
 

OK, for those who answered 1) Yes and 2) No (you know who you are):

So we are in a society enmeshed with Christian "values", but belief in God isn't necessary to function effectively in this society.

Round two:

Why don't we remove religion from society (and keep it in selected buildings only)?

Why don't Christians acknowledge that society can function without a belief in God?

Re: The existence of God
 

If I can jump here - because we don't need to.

The Christian belief isn't just a hobby or a passing interest like football - it bases how we view the world, life, each other and everything around us. I cannot imagine a world without a general belief in God.

Re: The existence of God
 

But is religion adding anything useful to society? If not, do we really need it?

But we can have a functional society without a general belief in God - so why not go down this route?

Re: The existence of God
 

Thankfully we live in a relatively free society where beliefs and practices are outlawed or restricted on a case-by-case basis, having been shown to pose a serious threat to society, rather than the Chinese Communist Party approach you appear to be advocating, where a committee of 'wise men' decides what's good for the rest of us.

It's very easy to propose restriction of things you don't have any attachment to; unfortunately once you let that particular genie out of the bottle you never know when the things you are rather attached to are going to come under threat. I'm sure you have no more wish than I to find yourself staring down the barrel of a tank.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christians refuse to acknowledge society can function without God. Or rather, I'm confused about what definitions of 'Christian', 'function', 'God' and 'society' you're using. I'd like to get my teeth into this one, so if you could elaborate on your question a little, I'd be most grateful. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

It has added to a great deal of morals and principles. Many countries' laws were and are based on them.

I strongly disagree.

---------- Post added at 19:39 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

I'm so glad you returned - I think foreverwar and I were getting a little worn out from holding the fort :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Look, I don't want to get into a tangled argument (this thread has enough already), so can we keep this simple?

Does anyone think it is necessary for shops to close on Easter Sunday? If so, why?

Re: The existence of God
 

I think there should be tolerance for a) atheists to work the day if they chose to and b) Christians who did not want to work it.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm all for Christians respecting the Sabbath rest, not because it's a law in the Old Testament but because it's made clear in the New Testament that it was supposed to be a gift from God to Humankind. Gifts are there to be accepted and enjoyed. When it comes to civil society, I'm a democrat and I believe it is acceptable for the majority to determine laws and principles which then govern the whole of society. If the majority wish to enact laws that echo Christian morality and practice, or to continue to live under such laws and practices, then in a democratic society the whole are bound by it. Except insofar as they are perfectly entitled to campaign and make a case for change.

Re: The existence of God
 

OK, so if the majority want Easter Sunday to be treated like any other day of the year, that would be acceptable?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd consider it a pity, and I'd exercise my democratic right to say so, but in purely civil terms of course it would be acceptable. Observing any Sunday, or not, makes no human being more or less acceptable in the eyes of God.

Re: The existence of God
 

Why would they?At the moment anyone working Easter Sunday is quids in...Make it an ordinary day and overtime is out of the question...so Shush! :nono:

Re: The existence of God
 

I am so sorry for all the people who have no belief in God you must be living such sad lives, peace be with you. :angel:

Re: The existence of God
 

i shall treat that with the just contempt it deserves :td:

Re: The existence of God
 

And I will treat your posts with the contempt they deserve :td:

Re: The existence of God
 

To be fair it's a lot more tame than some of the stuff that's come from the opposite direction.

Re: The existence of God
 

And as a believer in God, I actually have to agree with you there papa!!

I had a very good happy and content life before my firm belief in God came , but I will say my life is much more fullfilled now though.

To say a non believer has a sad life is just ridiculous.

Re: The existence of God
 

lucy7,
do you think it is ok for Christians to be pocked fun at, if it were another religion there would be all hell let loose about religious freedom.

I don't bother anyone else about religion but just lately anti Christian threads have been constantly started so if other people can have a go at me then I can and will respond.

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't think it's the best idea to stoop down to the level of those throwing the insults, why not try bringing them up to yours? :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Very judgemental, imho.

People don't have to believe in God to have positive ethics and ethos, so to call them "sad" is completely inappropriate, and imho, untrue.

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

Agreed - aim for the highest common denominator, not the lowest.

Re: The existence of God
 

Use words to put your message across as you do not need to resort to bear baiting or ridicule, unless you want to get down to their level.

This is aimed at both the religious posters and the atheist posters.

Re: The existence of God
 

I am sorry Russ, I promised myself that I would not be dragged down to this level but this thread has no purpose other than to take the mickey out of Christianity and we have to be meek and mild, after two thousand years this gets a little wearing.

Re: The existence of God
 

I disagree - there have been some very positive posts from atheists in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

Thing is up until your post I was repeatedly able to point out that none of the believers in this thread had resorted to school-yard name-calling in the way some of the atheists had been doing. I share your frustration but really, that's not the way.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well , I would not say I have not stooped down to any level.
Only my own level.

I support the fact that the guys are allowed to type what they want to, as infact all us believers in God are allowed to as well.

I restate, that I led a very happy life, not a sad one, before I came to my belief in God, my life is somewhat better now though, but who are any of us to say others are sad, just because they have not?? (yet ;) )

Re: The existence of God
 

You are a believer so take strength from your beliefs and take note of the way your fellow believers have behaved in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

banjo, just because others feel the need to spray spittle at their computer screens, doesn't mean you have to. ;)

When in doubt, breathe deeply and don't type (imho).:)

Re: The existence of God
 

I know I come over as a nutter, and on the non belivers side at times, but it is because I want peace and unity for us all.

I want non believers to believe in God, and have what I have, but I am a realist and know you can not type your own beliefs on to anyone, or infact should not type them on to anyone!

This thread has been wierd at times, and I may be a wierdo, but I like the way some of these guys are so passionate about their non belief, it makes me happy to be a God botherer, as Forever classed himself on Sunday morning (my kids name for me!)

Re: The existence of God
 

I do not spray spittle at my computer screen, and that is a very strange thing to say.

And are you saying that others can ridicule me and I cannot answer back, this thread should be closed as it is going no where and is only being used by certain people to wind others up and no one can refute that.

Re: The existence of God
 

Erm, easier said then done though!!!!!

Re: The existence of God
 

Well, you should have been a bit more specific with your answer, instead of generalising.

I am an atheist and perfectly happy in my life, thank you very much and I haven't ridiculed you have I?

Re: The existence of God
 

How could I believe in any God? What kind of good father sends his own son to be sacrificed?

What kind of God stands by and watches all the atrocities that have ever happened and are happening now, and will happen in the future? Especially the atrocities that happen in his name.

Re: The existence of God
 

That's just ripe for a reply :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Well thank you for not ridiculing me and I think you will agree that we should respect each others view point :tu: but I would not start a thread such as"Do atheists exist"

Re: The existence of God
 

Well, I didn't start an anti-god thread, but I was still attacked and ridiculed.

My point is that if you have a problem with the way that a certain member is posted, address it in a civil manner to them or the team, don't generalise.

Re: The existence of God
 

Nobody has asked "do Christians exist" :D

Anyway if anyone wants proof God exists, I can prove He does.

How else do you explain Martine McCutcheon giving up her music career??

Re: The existence of God
 

I think it's a good idea to start a poll, "Is it wise to debate religion on the internet".

Re: The existence of God
 

I was referring to you in the future tense.....;)

Never get into an argument with someone looking to get you angry - they will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. :D

Re: The existence of God
 

lol:)

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------


What else we would all do on internet forums instead though?;)

---------- Post added at 09:20 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------



Chris will come along soon, his answers are always well balanced and typed.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------




Agreed, and a tolerence of each other in all areas of life is needed to.

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 ----------

I remember the long jumper, Johnathon Edwards making a stand for God, and refusing to compete on Sundays, when at competitions.
He kept his integrity for a fair time, until a really big competition came up, think it was the worlds, and his event was sheduled for Sunday.
He jumped, and won.
He now works for the BBC on Sundays as well in his new role as a sports commenter.

I remember at the time he was pulled for changing his stance.
I respect him for taking his stance in the first place, and continued to when he jupmed and won the gold.

It takes strength of character to make a stand for ones religious view points and love of God.

Re: The existence of God
 

To answer this it's necessary to get a bit theological. The Christian God is a trinity. He has three distinct personalities, yet they are at the same time one and the same God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God the Father sends his Son to die on the cross; God the Son dies on the cross; God the Holy Spirit empowers believers to live the life that Jesus lived.

However the Bible makes clear that wherever God expresses himself in the text in one of His personalities, it is in fact always the case that all three personalities are intimately involved in some way or other. This has to be the case because the existence of the three personalities do not in any way detract from the 'oneness' of God.

Sorry for the heavy theology, but it really is the only way to answer your question. The Father was able to send the Son to die on the cross because the Father and the Son are one. It wasn't simply a case of Jesus going to the Cross out of blind obedience or by having his arm twisted. God's plan to use the cross was established before the world was made and Jesus, as an eternal member of the trinity, was always involved in that plan.

This is a somewhat different issue, even though it superficially appears to be connected to your first question. You're bringing up the 'problem of suffering', something every university theology department in the world requires its students to answer massive essays and exam questions about. In other words, it's difficult to give a full answer to here.

I have touched on it earlier in the thread however so you could have a scan back through it and see. Plus, you could think about this question and post me an answer:

In your own personal life, what level of direct intervention from God would you tolerate, on occasions when in God's opinion your behaviour falls short of the standards God requires?

Re: The existence of God
 

It's not OK for those who have religious beliefs to have those beliefs poked fun at. However, patronising someone could also be considered a form of poking fun and, sorry to say, but even if your post wasn't meant that way, it came across as very patronising to me (as an atheist).

I am an atheist. I don't have a perfect life. But, in my experience, most people don't (whatever their belief). However, I do have a life that I am quite happy with and I haven't needed religion to achieve that.

Re: The existence of God
 

You only have to look around the world's hotspots to realise that the more we interfere in someone's life the more complex the situation becomes and how quickly things can get out of hand due to meddling however well thought/intentioned out it might be, and most of it isn't that well thought out anyway.

So if you are an omniscient being you can see all the ramifications of interfering here and there.You can see what action will lead to another action and so forth..Sometimes the only real possible action is to take no action as being the way of preventing a worse situation from happening.

Then add to that the fact you have promised everyone the option of free choice, one can hardly go interfering at every opportunity or you are breaking your word.

Anyway maybe if there is a God he/she/it is just a scientist and we are his/her/it's petrie dish...;)

Re: The existence of God
 

One of the arguments I hear from many Christians/Muslims/Hindus is that one of the benefits of religion/believe in God is that it lays down a code of morals & ethics which contribute to society. The problem with this argument is that it makes an assumption that without religion there would be a world lacking in morals and ethics and we might not be as civilised.

This in turn leads to Athiests thinking how dare someone suggest that its only because of religion we have good morals.

What we need to remember is that when religion came to prople, whether through Jesus or Muhammed or Ram etc etc, there were people with good morals and ethics even before there was a religion to follow.

I'm a practising Muslim. My religion provides me with a code and lifestyle that I am capable of following and it deters me from committing wrongful doing on others. But just because i'm religious it doesn't mean I am a better person that someone without religion. I do think it is this which peeves off non-believers the most, the fact that there are a lot of arrogant followers of faith who feel they are superior to others just because they don't believe.

Re: The existence of God
 

It's a stereotypical view of believers though. I haven't seen any post from a believer which implies they are in any way a 'better' person than an atheist.

In any case the reverse can also be applied, with athiest attitudes to believers.