Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Neil, it isn't offtopic when you are arguing that somebody downloading 'excessively' in your opinion is doing something illegal, when what you are referring to isn't actually illegal.

Next.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

It is Off topic.

This thread is entitled "*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please", & you post of is in no way relevant to ntl & their decision to cap their users.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

ITS ALL RUBBISH, why do the admin here insist that NTL is/has suddenly enforced caps with the new service and if anybody asks about them they say that they are on a capped service.

Simple matter is we are not at present!
NTL says 1meg users will be monitored and cap brought in later this year, and 2/3meg users have a 1gig a day/30gig a month useage (nothing mentioned about caps).

basically nothing has changed from the 1.5 to the new speeds apart from the 1meg service where caps will be implemented this year (maybe)

Basically is clever wording by NTL to confuse everyone into THINKING that there is a capped service in place when at present there isn't and probably never will be on highest tier for the forseeable future

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

No, what you said was anyone downloading 2GB a day (even though I am not doing that; you inferred it. Check my usage log posted previously) is downloading copyrighted material. What you said was wrong.
__________________

Man I really hope you are right.. time will tell. I am gonna continue exceeding the 1GB limit and see what happens. I know I should at least get a letter asking me to cut back, before they take more drastic action.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

That's constructive.

I wasn't aware that any of us had said anything of the sort, but please show me the post(s) if you know differently. :)

That's correct.

So's that.

Except ntl have now stated they will be monitoring people's usage, & will be offering them solutions should they exceed the guidelines.

That's just speculation on your part re your 'highest tier' comment, but the fact still remains that ntl will be addressing users who they feel exceed their definition of acceptable use.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Oh right, so this was on topic aswell? I was referring to your constant, 'if anybody downloads over 1, 2gb a day then they are doing something illegal'.

I was pointing out you are wrong, not arguing the legality of downloading/p2p. The problem is, you can never admit you are wrong. That is all.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

That was in reference to the comment about how much data he "wanted"

Wrong about what? :LOL:

That an opinion or a fact? :shrug:

Ok. :wavey:

Anyway-we're both taking this off topic now, so if you want to continue this discussion, we'll keep it off the board. :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Wrong about saying or implying that anyone using 2GB a day must be breaking the law. Wrong about saying 2GB a day is excessive for home use.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

What evidence would you expoect to see, and why would you think YOU would be in a better position to judge it than the people that manage ntl's service?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

lol, was waiting for you to pick my post apart

You have yourself said that we are on a capped service in other posts to other users.

the 2/3meg users which you say is capped isn't capped its a guidleine, how can it be capped when it cannot be enforced by NTL, NTL say capped yes, but come on it isn't if they cannot do it their end, clever play on words by NTL part

NTL have stated that they will be monitoring 1meg users only, all it say about 2/3meg users is they have the right to contact you if "regularly exceed their daily usage allowance, where such excessive use impacts the quality of service for other ntl broadband customers."
where does it say monitoring? - too me thats not monitoring UNLESS someone phones in and complains of bad speed in your area upon which its checked out where its going and to whom.

so the bit where you say "but the fact still remains that ntl will be addressing users who they feel exceed their definition of acceptable use." - has been said ever since 1.5meg was brought out and no-one unless outlined by above has been contacted.

Simple fact NTL hasn't ATM got the gear to cap us, so how can it be called capping?, it isn't - but like this post it proves that clever wording by NTL makes everyone believe that they are and follow the guidline when infact you have to be extremely unlucky to be contacted

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

No I wasn't-& I offered educated facts to support my claim, something that you haven't done yet.

It is, I can't be wrong.

[Edit]-Thanks for the red rep, next time you lose the ability to discuss something like an adult, feel free to do it again. :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

OMG, got to reply.

'I'm willing to bet this site that your downloads are most illegal' - You are referring to downloading on p2p, don't deny, i told you along with others, its not illegal.

Fact, its just happened here.

I think we will agree to disagree. All talk here has fallen under the topic title, you are arguing that downloading excessively must be illegal, and that the cap would curb users who do this. I'm saying its not illegal.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

You reject out of hand my post about leaving the p2p client uploading 24/7, then? You reject out of hand the idea that I could possibly be uploading Linux distros or other perfectly legal files 24/7?

Don't you get it? Using 2GB a day legally isn't about downloading loads of Linux distros every day.

Now you may think I am lying, in which case fair enough. But you cannot deny that what I have just said is a plausible and legal usage of 2GB bandwidth a day. 1GB uploads (mostly p2p), 1GB downloads.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

So you do this every day ??

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

What, leave my p2p client running? Yes I do.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Oh, so now it's "other" perfectly legal files is it?, but Yes I do reject that you could (as I keep saying) constantly be downloading 2GB of legal data per day.

You'd still have to some to grab 2GB of legal data daily/constantly whatever way you look at it.

You upload 1GB per day???

Ok, this is where the issue lies-you are confusing my comments of 2GB of downloads, with a gig of uploads per day.

I'm still willing to bet that your 1GB of uploads per day are files/torrents/whatever, that you have downloaded in your 1GB per day.

Either way, you would still be hard pressed to download 1GB of legal data every day per month on a residential connection, that's all I'm saying.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

so what are you dowloading that takes 2Gb per day ?? .. and how do you find enough time to deal with the stuff you downloaded?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

On average yes - did you see my NetMeter log for the last week that I posted previously?

Let's say I download the Suse Linux DVD which is 4.5GB. The fairest way to distribute this, which doesn't use Suse's bandwidth and therefore cost Suse anything, is to distribute it via p2p. If I leave my p2p client running it will upload that one file 24/7 indefinitely, even if I had no other files to share, just that one.
__________________

When did I say I was downloading 2GB per day?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Well the fact that ntl haven't hard capped, is a good sign that they haven't found it to be true either. I'd expect to see people on here, and on other forums, complaining about slow service, then finding out it's due to an overused UBR - thanks to the helpful techs on here. :D

I'm not claiming to be in ANY position, but i'd expect to see traces of it on here. Most problems get raised on here, and in most cases sorted, which is what brought me here in the first place.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ah-the old "Linux ISO" chestnut again......:zzz:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

So ... why are YOU distributing it ?????

Business ??

Why do you care about SUSE's bandwidth, it's probably much better than yours, and in doing so you are affecting other ntl customers.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

To be fair Neil, you were wrong, you've missed the point of his argument. You claimed people couldn't download 2GB a day without involving illegal downloads, and he raised the point that technically it's not illegal, as downloading copyrighted material isn't illegal (yet).

As far as UK law goes (to my understanding) only people sharing the material, selling, etc, are breaking the law. It's still morally wrong, and i'm sure the law will be changed quite soon, if the relevant lawyers have their way!

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

And contravening the ntl AUP......

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Is there evidence for this?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

You may not realise this but Suse and other Linux producers make little or no money from their releases. (Suse do charge for some; others like Ubuntu are totally free). Bandwidth costs them a lot of money, so one way of helping Linux devs is to distribute their distros via p2p.

The Linux sites themselves ask people to use bittorrent and to leave their client running afterwards as it 'saves us money'. It is called giving back to the Linux community, rather than just taking.

Neil, I know you think you are clever but trust me.. you aren't :) Your patronising replies get boring very quickly. You refuse to acknowledge there are legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7 and uploading 1gig a day.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I do accept that there may be legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7.

What I don't accept is that you choose to do this from a residential connection that is controlled by an AUP, that you choose to ignore and then complain about when ntl decide to put in place projects to enforce the AUP.

If you choose to do this, legal as it might be, the residential ntl connection is not the transport it should be done over, find a supplier that would accept this type of usage.

I guarantee that should you approach an ISP explaining what it is you want to do, you would be directed towards a business connection, as this is not NORMAL residential behaviour.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

http://www.tlm-project.org/

http://www.slackware.com/torrents/


__________________

:)

That is a different argument. I have no knowledge of the AUP or that leaving a p2p client uploading 24/7 breaks ntl's rules.. could you possibly point me in the direction of the relevant paragraph that covers it? I know some ISPs don't allow p2p usage but I wasn't aware that ntl was one of them.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

To be fair, just because they tell you to do it, doesn't mean you have to. If they told you to make 500 copies and give them out at the local shopping centre would you do that too? :D

There are good points on both sides, and i think for once ntl have got it right. Most of us can accept that if our useage is affecting other people on our UBR, then it's unfair. I don't want some familiy down the road suffering slow surfing because of me. And also, i don't want to be capped, when there are times i could do my downloading and not affect anyone. I just hope ntl enforce it sensibly. If someone does go over a lot, and affects other people, then i hope ntl will suggest off peak downloading, or find a way around it, rather than just cutting them off, lowering them to 56k etc.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Here
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and here

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

So as well as red rep me, you want to insult me too?

And again.

No I don't-what I "refuse to acknowledege" is that anyone can upload & download 1GB of data per day consistantly (& legally) for a month.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

No because that would take a lot of time and effort ;) :D Leaving my client running when I'm in bed or at work is easy. I leave it running 24/7 but when I'm at the PC I throttle the upload speed right down so I still get good performance.

I entirely agree. Whether my p2p client's 12K/sec upload (which is what I set it to as a maximum) does cause fellow ntl users problems is a moot point though; does it?

Exactly which is why ntl should (imo) distinguish between heavy usage during the day/evening, and in the early hours of the morning. Much in the same way that electricity is cheaper overnight due to lower demand.

Agreed. I realise I am a heavy user compared to many or even most. But 2GB a day (average) is still a fraction of what I *could* use every day.

Anyway I'm waiting with interest to see what ntl's new rules mean in practice. Maybe nothing will change from before, but I think it will do. They wouldn't (imo) have introduced faster speeds without something to balance it out.
__________________

The rep was accurate, as was my comment. Someone seems to have neg-repped me too ;'(

That wasn't an insult, just an observation.

We agree then, you refuse to acknowledge something which is clearly well within the realms of possibility. I even posted two links (of which there are countless like them) proving my point about distributing Linux via p2p.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

....erm you seem to have ignored my AUP quotes ....

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

It doesn't explicitly say not to use p2p, not to max out upload or not to distribute Linux 24/7 though.. it's just the usual vague stuff about not exceeding reasonable usage etc.

__________________
That is for dial-up users. Cable users don't need to take measures to avoid their connection being dropped as it's always on.
__________________

Sorry just seen them.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

:notopic:Yes, but it wasn't Neil:notopic:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

haha well I didn't neg rep him in retaliation, if that's what you're implying :D

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

So on the basis it doesn't explicitly mention p2p, linux, or maxing out the connection .... the AUP doesn't apply to you, or just that you choose to ignore it.

The AUP INCLUDES the "Normal Use" definition, and so by so obviously breaking the Normal Usage guidelines, you break the AUP.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Of course it is illegal, very illegal. Just point me to something official that gives you that right. Have a look at http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/indetail/copyinter.htm , http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/en2002/2002en25.htm .

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I think he means it's not against criminal law (unless you try and sell copyrighted material). You cannot be arrested for downloading copyrighted material, the owner of the copyright would have to initiate a civil action against you.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

NTL's defintion of "normal" use has no mention of upstream, so by my understanding keeping a torrent of a linux .iso open for other to download from you is not against the AUP.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

the main thing with all these arguments are that thi or that contravenes the AUP or that this behaviour isn't typical residential user behaviour. Typical use is changing 10 years ago when all that was out there was dial up BBS's a 2800 baud modem was ok and why would you want faster, if you did get your wallet out. Now wit streaming audio and video, huge game demo downloads, P2P, video messaging, voice over internet telephone and all the rest is usage going to go down? nope. wether the net is used for leagal or illegal purposes( and im thinking music and software, nothing more nefarious than that) the internet is going to become a more and more used medium, cable companies should get used to that and realise that any cap is just a stopgap measure to give breathing room. In 10 years time a 3 gig a month cap would be insane on your home 500gig connection and it will still take all day to DL the latest game demo so we'll have a cap of about 3 hours constant full speed use and we'll all still argue about it. If the cable co`s woke up and sacked the bright sparks that think caps have any real purpose and took a more forwards thinking approach like lets create a broadband service that only 1% of our customers can max out and they have to really try to do that then we might be moving forwards at the same pace as the technology thats sat on the desks infront of us

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Oh ok so presumably we never upgrade until people start complaining, as we have no idea how much is being used on our network :rolleyes:

Really? :batty:

The capacity exists now to check the usage of every user on the network and from that query produce the MAC addresses of all customers using over 30GB.

Of course, that's unfair until we provide a means for customers to check their usage online.

However those using a ton of bandwidth would be well advised to 'reconsider' - there's nothing stopping ntl from right now dealing with them individually, we do actually know who high users are, and they are left alone through choice not because we're clueless 'n00bs' - if you aren't hurting anyone's service you'll generally be left be.

Contrary to popular opinion the upgrade budget isn't unlimited and we all have to work within those constraints, so if a single user is affecting the service of many that's a very strong reason to consider action, and is indeed the primary concern of the guidelines. Neither ourselves nor any cable company in the world has the resources to upgrade areas ad infinitum. All cable companies have bad areas where usage is so high there's just no chance of upgrades being worthwhile there, and these areas are either left congested or highest users contacted to try and persuade them to calm down.

I can think easily of 3 North American cablecos and an area each for them that is heavy usage and just too expensive to upgrade.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

:dunce:

Only if you have the copyright holders permission :rolleyes:

Without it of course it's illegal.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Cheers for that Ignition, as usual you have answered a few questions that have only been touched upon.
Will NTL be providing a "self monitoring" program\software then?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

It would be in contravention of the AUP if it affected the service other customers are receiving. The relevant section is Now if you know much about how NTLs broadband is structured you will know that upstream can easily by maxed out on a UBR card if several users are maxing out their uploads. This point is reached much sooner with users now having more upload bandwidth available.

My feeling is that with the increased speeds NTL may be getting in touch with the really heavy users if their usage is not moderated whereas they haven't bothered in the past. Some people are saying that the cap will only be a soft cap and you can continue doing what you want with your connection until later in the year. Don't bank on it.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Do you work for ntl, in which case can you tell me if the 30GB includes uploads or is it just downloads?
__________________

It's not a criminal offence, it's a civil matter.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Would you care to comment on the fact that I have been (perhaps) reliably informed by one of the ex-higher ups at NTL that they aren`t actually technically capable of measuring individual usage above and beyond session start and end times. As I say, this is what I've been told, hence I`m not making any assumptions about the accuracy of this statement.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Who are you asking?

Either way, I've already give you the link to check for yourself.

1) http://www.home.ntl.com/icat/broadband

2) http://www.home.ntl.com/page/broadbandusage
__________________

I'll do better than that-I'll get you Ignition.....

Oh Iggy, where are you.......!?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I was asking Ignition.. I meant to quote a blank post but at first it didn't work, so I did a quick edit.

As I said before, those links you give DO NOT say whether it includes uploads or not.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Yes... An illegal [Prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules] civil matter :D

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

IF it was affecting other people. I've had broadband with NTL now for getting on for 4 years, I have NEVER been unable to achieve my max download speed (due to NTL), which would suggest NTL have no capacity problems in my area.

Of course I understand how upstream could affect other people. It would be down to NTL to let you know if your usage was affecting others (there is no way a user could monitor such things) as long as they keep within the AUP. ANY online activity could IN THEORY affect other people if the network wasn't up to it. The fact is uploading of any description (other than business use) is not against the AUP, and that was the only point I was making.

There's no need to keep reminding people what could happen in a worse case scenario.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Okay you got me :p: :D

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Yes that is what i mean.

http://p2pnet.net/story/4125

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I refer you to Ignitions post #1141 above. :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ah, oh usage.

Erm, yup, we have usage stats internally, is just a case of getting them presented in a pretty way externally.

These are down to the single cable modem level, so if required we can certainly measure usage on an individual modem, there's a simple and (inside the company) publically available webpage to do this and present it as pretty graphs.

Obviously the database that these graphs are built on is manipulateable as well, queries as I referred to earlier can be run on it.

However when usage stats are available they will be using a different system.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ignition, question, does ntl have the capability to monitor usage throughout the network as of now?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ignition, please tell me whether the 30GB limit includes upload bandwidth, or is it just downloads?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Of course. Always have.

(Waits for all those people who thought NTL were incompetent and ruthless and just didn't realise how much they used to actually understand now that they are left alone because the company chooses to leave them alone).

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Thanks.

But how much less does it cost ntl per gb than the £1.50 plusnet apparently says BT wholesale charge?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

They are all far tooooo busy thinking (or not) up the next gripe :D

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Thanks, didn`t see that one. I did mention the source of the information, hence my need to question it ;)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Cost varies depending on the area. Some areas which are harder to upgrade than others naturally bandwidth would be more expensive.

If there's pre-existing fibre there and all that's needed to resegment is a new card in a uBR then wouldn't be too bad. If to facilitate the upgrade several thousand feet of new fibre would need to be laid obviously it increases the cost per GB a fair bit.

If usage is relatively light in an area so more customers are happily co-existing on kit that makes bandwidth cheaper, if it's an area full of monster users more upgrades and in turn higher cost per GB.

Obviously we can't charge each area differently, that'd be an absolute PITA.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Who said that :o

Why is it hard to get a straight answer to a straight question? :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

It is when I don't know the answer!

EDIT: Even harder to answer when I'm also checking how my 'Linux ISO' downloads are doing.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Fair enough :) Would you be able to find out? I would e-mail or ring ntl myself but I suspect any answer I get wouldn't necessarily be definitive.
__________________

btw I never said I do (or don't) download or upload Linux distros.. I was just pointing out that it is a common reason for using p2p which is legal and uses a lot of bandwidth.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Sorry if I have missed this bit of info (I did have a look) or if this a dumb question but are the limits in Gigabits or Gigabytes :dunce: ? I assume that it is Gigabytes otherwise the limit is so low that I shall have to stick with the 300 kbit service.


Jimmy

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

GigaBytes. :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Will make enquiries.
__________________

Agreed, however I generally can't be bothered with that stuff. At the moment I'm downloading an ISO of a copyrighted game, Spellforce Order Of Dawn as a matter of fact. Then when that's done the two expansion packs are queued in my news reader awaiting my bandwidth.

I'm a very bad boy :batty:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Respect for the honesty. :tu:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

As long as its not on the NTL network of ocourse. :p:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

OK, taken that into consideration, but there is no average cost you know of?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

does the new ntl business speeds hav a cap and if so what are they?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

nice link - pity it dosent work :)
__________________

oops now it does - page must have been in the process of being updated
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cant find any aup or dl limits maybe im just thick

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Nope, most of our costs are local network related so how long is a piece of string?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ok, well thanks anyway, great asset to this forum this man! :tu:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

can someone tell me if NTL are trying to stop heavy users then why is AOL allowed to use the NTL network and they have no download limits. Not everything can be blamed on NTL users surely?, AOL has a large user base also surely them users must effect the service for us NTL users?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Just maybe AOL pay ntl enough that it's not an issue ;)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

AOL may be paying in a manner that makes its customers usage on cable an attractive proposition for NTL. AOL has a very large user base, but not on cable.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Capping is a non issue for the foreseeable future.

Even the 24*7 leechers have very little chance of being contacted and here's why...

ntl have said that they'll only contact those who degrade the service for others. By using the traffic report function of docsdiag anyone contacted by ntl can simply check to see if their UBR is congested.

I'd suggest that maybe 1 in 50 of the 24*7 downloaders (who are in themselves a pretty rare group of customers anyway) is actually on a UBR where there is any degradation in service even at peak hours due to excess traffic.

The vast majority of the UBR's are NOT congested. It's a myth. How many threads on this site are there where customers complain of not getting their full download rate? Not very many especially when compared to the number of customers out there.


As an aside I find it odd that people are getting worked up over whether the leechers are engaged in illegal activity or not. The fact remains that you cant change human nature. People will continue to download copyrighted material without permission. Any (expensive) measures put in place to prevent this will be simply circumvented by the 'scene' community for example by forcing downloads though port 80 so they look like regular web traffic.

In any case there are a growing number of 'grey area' and legitimate reasons to download in excess of 1GB a day. The 'adult' market alone makes up a huge proportion of overall downloads and much of this content is not copyrighted. Bear in mind that 1GB of DVD quality video is only about 30 minutes of viewing. Timeshifted TV is another huge and arguably legitimate reason to download. 1 episode of your favourite drama/sci-fi or whatever a day could take you over the limit.

People can easily upload/download 1GB of data per day consistantly and legally and they do.

Finally, all those quoting the AUP ad-nauseam would do well to remember that whether an online document that gets updated regularly without formal notification of these changes to the customer can be considered part of the contractual agreement has yet to be tested. Personally I dont believe that it's legal for one party to unilaterally amend a contract without providing notice in writing in advance. But that's another argument.

Anyway I'm off to download that episode of 24 that I missed last week

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I thought this no longer worked ?

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

ntl dont have to give writen notification of a change to it's aup or t's&c's unless the change is "substantial"

now define "substatial" as in relation to an AUP or T&C

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Hmm it had been a while since I've run it. Just tried again and it didn't give me useful results. I'll email rdhw and ask whether it's still useful. Will be a shame if it doesn't work anymore.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

hi does any1 have an example to show me please of caps for download and upload plz thanks :)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

1GB = 30 minutes of DVD quality video

Not sure if this is the sort of thing you are after

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

It is very easy to quote what is possible on a connection but it is impossible to know what usage there is on every UBR unless you work for NTL and are privy to those stats.

The main fault with your argument though is that you have no control or comeback against anything that NTL say or do. Check DOCSDIAG as much as you like but that does not prove anything other than what was happening at a specific moment in time. If NTL were to contact you and tell you to modify your usage and you didn't so they followed up with removing your service you will have to look for another ISP. There is nothing at all that you could do about it. Tell us how you could defend use of say 50Gb per month and keep your connection if NTL decided they no longer wanted you as a customer.

People mention illegal activity because that is the primary reason for caps being introduced.

It is quite easy for NTL to identify users who download more than 1Gb per day and for them to discover what they are downloading no matter how you change things to try to hide what you are doing.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

not sure what your point is.

Not true. To say I have no comeback against anything ntl do is ludicrous. If ntl break their side of a contract I could take the matter to court.

*If* docsdiag is still working then it would be a simple matter to run a series of snapshots over time to establish an overall picture of usage patterns.

1 'if'

followed by an 'and'

followed by another

Of course there is. I'd seriously consider taking them to court for breach of contract. My argument being that my internet usage did not affect the service for other customers (I'm on a particularly quiet UBR)

see above.

That might be one of the reasons they mention it but I still dont know why they get worked up over it. Incidentally and AFAIK the reason caps were introduced is because somebody got the decimal point in the wrong place when calculating the percentage of 'bandwidth abuse'. They cocked up big time.

Not true. NTL cant currently tell what you are downloading. At best they can tell what sort of thing you are downloading. If they were to interrogate data at the packet level and decide what is fit and unfit then they would be seen as a 'content provider' rather than a 'service provider' and could well be held liable for any illegal content that was transferred through their system.

In any case it is a trivial matter for customers to use a service such as Secure Tunnel to mask the type of data they are downloading.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I sortta agree with the human nature agruement from oblivous (to get something for free is nice, unless its crabs)

in my previous post ...
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...postcount=1050

i was wondering if ignition could answer a question re bandwidth... see if I can word it sufficiently....

Which puts more strain on the network out of the 2 scenerios...

1. Uploading at full speed
2. Downloading at full speed.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

EDIT: Redid my (botched) sums, afraid downloading is the big bug-bear following the upstream upgrades last year, and the new tier ratios, sorry :angel:

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Thank you ignition I had actually assumed it was uploading.

So to a point I was correct... so is the ideal solution to limit the uploading on the majority instead of attacking the downloading side ... eg my post

assuming your hopefully becoase true.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I contacted ntl and they pointed me to the definitions in the AUP.


In other words;

The 3GB per month usage limit on the new 1M service is both upload & download.

The 1GB per day usage guide on the new 2M & 3M services is download only.

HTH.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

I really think with all these usage allowances ntl should allow users to see how much of their limits have been used, as for example Plusnet do

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

They say they'll be releasing a bandwidth usage tool later in the year ie 'coming soon' ;)


On another note, seeing as I'm out of hibernation for a bit I thought I'd post this link. Search for the phrase "Bandwidth caps in 2005" and you'll see an interesting little bit about BT not least of which is that the Also interesting is the issue of caps to prevent customers from engaging in video on demand when the ISP wants to make this a separate chargeable service.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Just commenting on a couple of points you made.


That was said in the context that if NTL say you have affected the service of other users you cannot prove otherwise. To say you could take the matter to court is one thing, to actually do it is another. Think cost and likelihood of winning.



Which still would not prove anything.



Most situations contain "ifs" and "ands". If you took NTL to court and if you could afford the cost and if you won, what would the result be?



You cannot prove that it didn't affect the service of others and you would have exceeded their AUP usage guideline.



See above.



Nobody got the decimal point in the wrong place (post a link to where this was said). The bandwidth used in illegal activities is well known. ISPs the World over are capping and they all quote the same reasons. A calculator and a little bit of knowledge can soon show that someone maxing out 24/7 who uses hundreds of Gb of bandwidth a month is costing the ISP far more than the user is paying and with contention, several doing this can soon impact on others usage. Anyone using that amount of bandwidth is doing something illegal.



Why would deep packet inspection make them a content provider? There are many methods of masking your activities advertised, but do you believe the hype of adverts? ;)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

The way i see it is if they contact me over the cap, I dump all their services and go to an 8mb connection on ukonline...enuff said. Not that arsed really.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

why dont you just go now and save all the hot air you are blowing out ;)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Ian I'm sorry but most of the questions you raise have self evident answers and most of your objections (eg what constitutes proof) are just plain pedantic for the sake of it. As for my sources re the decimal point cockup...they remain my own. It's not worth anyone losing their job over.

I've been reading your posts recently and boy you DO have to be right dont you? ;)

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

If you can get it :D

And if you can then what you waiting for???

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

if you hurry up and go you'll get a free wireless router too.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

If you post cr@p expect to be corrected. :) The law is very pedantic. If you can't win an argument, get abusive. ;)

I like to respond to posts that appear to convey wrong information that other members may take as being gospel and could suffer the consequences.

Re: *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

Thats great....... :o :disturbd: :disturbd: :disturbd:
__________________

Yeah thats right one comment thats a lot of hot air isnt it.....
I guess free speech isnt allowed on this site without some <ADMIN removed comment - no need for personal comments here> jumping down your throat cos you criticised their beloved capping, Yeah i can get ukonline but i think ill just max out my 3mb cos i can until they start monitoring the cap, thing is i already dumped the ****ty tv, the crap phone service so bb is all i have left on ntl, and being my phones already switched it'll only take 7 days to switch to ukonline, but then again im having so much fun maxing out my ubr what the hell i may just keep on doing it till they start sending letters,,,,,why ?

Cos i can..