Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just received a very similar PDF letter via e-mail dated 16/7/2008 in response to my complaint in June.


Just returned from holiday.
Good luck to all at the protest today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm disappointed to see that so far only The Register has picked up the news of the protest. As much as I love 'el Reg', it's not the mainstream press coverage that we need.

At least the BT shareholders are being informed.

Well done to those at the protest :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

remember though the main news outlets have something like a 2 day turnaround, so id expect any Tv footage to make it to screen by friday.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well its seem the AGM is overunning, not sure if it because of phorm/webwise questions being asked !!

I will be back down when I finish today at around 1530 ish.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It seems like we aren't the only people that aren't too happy with BT.

http://ukpress.google.com/article/AL...613isRrYSF6-vw

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure about a 2 day turnaround. I've appeared on local TV news hours after being filmed and a fair amount of national TV news is live.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did anyone tell the BBC or the national Media at all? :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they was told but with the big council workers strike and other news a small agm protest is not on top of to do list but it be there somewhere.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There were a couple of people sending out press releases to the media. I'm not sure who the list included though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

UK consumers have a deep mistrust of behavioural targeting and would ditch ISPs using it, research commissioned by NMA has found.

The report discovered almost two-thirds (65%) of UK adults would leave their ISP if it introduced be_havioural targeting, while 81% were in favour of opting out from receiving targeted online advertising.

http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/38754/...aten+ISPs.html

Thanks to Dr Richard Clayton for the Link; via UKCrypto

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Activists raise awareness over targeted advertising

http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...-targeted.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

interesting...

"Miller said BT officials visited her on Monday and assured her the Webwise system complies with the law."

They have still not given any reason why they believe it complies with the law. Only ever "assurances".

Honest Guv!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking forward to reading a full run down of today's events. Will be keeping an eye on the media to see if anything is reported today.

Thank you to everyone who is at the protest and expressing our views.

Maiott

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi!

Back from the protest (left at 3pm)

All in all i think it was a great day, Personally I spoke to quite a few of the public and only a small percentage seemed to not care. (like around 5% of who i spoke with)

Most people (after discussing) agreed that it was generally a bad idea and some even took offense.

Although the turnout didnt start too well, by then mid-end it was good.. and from what i saw/spoke people did take notice and did approach me with questions, there was also a good amount of people who already seen/remember Phorm/BT from BBC so thats great news,

I was happy with the day and i think we came across as professional, concerned and dedicated people.

I handed out so many flyer's that i cannot even count!

even after the meeting had finished I had many comments regarding the questions placed to BT inside the meeting and that BT appeared to not 'get the message across' to some shareholders re: phorm.

Many thanks to all who attended and all the supporters, I cannot wait for the next protest!

I will upload all my videos and images tonight/tomorrow.

Ill let someone else fill in the gaps.. a better writer perhaps :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

many thanks for the update! am really pleased to hear it went well and that the public DO seem concerned by this despite what BT keep saying.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can ditto jtechs comments.

Some of the folks coming out of the AGM were positively grabbing for the leaflet to learn more. As chance would have it, I traveled home on the train with a BT shareholder. As she said, most people did not have a clue what the questions about webwise were all about and were just looking at each other, none understanding anything. She was really happy to have a leaflet, and a few more for her contacts. When she asked how she could find out what was going on, I suggested that, as a shareholder she write to BT and explain that she would like more information about what was being discussed as she could not understand any of it.

Maybe some more shareholders will want to ask similar questions.

It was really good to meet some of the folks who have helped me out with many things phorm related. In case anyone is wondering, we are all just normal folks. The only difference being that we started talking about this before the rest. It was really great knowing that so many others were there with us in spirit.

The only disadvantage being that I was so busy talking to the public that I barely had time for more than a few words with the rest of those on the demonstration. For those I did not have a chance to thank personally, may I take this chance to thank you all publicly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From advfn. :o::o::o:

found a link
http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-act...argeted-488767

Update to story.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also back from the protest, the day went really well. Dephormation Pete was our inside man, I'll let him fill you in when he gets back, but trust me it's worth the wait :)

Handed out loads of fliers, lots of shareholders came over, like madslug said, and asked us to explain what Webwise was. Also after the AGM between 3.30 - 4.30 there was a BT emloyees meeting also at the Barbican, needless to say they got a load of fliers also.

BT employee "WHAT! BT ARE DOING THAT?" :)

Looks like the PIA is finished, I'll let Alex explain all in his report.

Great to meet those that turned up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"The research reveals deep concern about targeting and highlights a need for greater education."

So they think they can educate us into accepting being spied on? :shocked:

I think the ISPs and purveyors of webspyware systems that need education.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All

I did not know anything about this business with Phorm until a news item via my RSS feed from the MacinTouch website arrived in my browser today - see below.

As a very reluctant BT customer I am horrified, but not surprised that my ISP has done this and am absolutely outraged that BT and the other ISPs involved have not been charged by the police.

I fully support your campaign - have signed the petition at 10 Downing Street, Dugg the various articles and also added them to Stumbleupon. In addition the MacinTouch website, which has been around since Macs were first developed, is a central plank of the Mac community, so the message will have been received by a huge number of people.

Keep up the good work!

Matari


From MacinTouch website (http://www.macintouch.com/index.shtm....07.16.phorm):

The Register reports on a protest over British Telecom's support for a secret browser snooping system:

BT conducted two trials with Phorm which gave the former spyware company access to thousands of BT customers' browsing history without telling them. Phorm aims to use anonymised browsing information to sell more targeted advertising. BT insists the secret trial was legal, even though it appears to breach UK wiretap laws.

The secret trial came to light when Reg reader Stephen noticed his browser making unauthorised connections with a server he didn't recognise. He contacted BT and was told the server had nothing to do with them and he had probably picked up some malware. BT denied having done any deal with Phorm, although Phorm admitted the server was theirs and was being used to collect browsing information.
[See also The Phorm Files.]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

1 - thaks to the guys and girls who turned out today. WELL DONE

:clap: :clap:

2 - a thought for tomorrow. If the demo/AGM infiltration has been a success we need to be on our best behaviour after today - not to keep mods happy but to be able to make the most of any visits by interested BT employees and investors who have got the message and come here for info.

So - my suggestions are -

Don't rant!
Don't respond to provocation!

There may well be some spoiling activity - it looks like it was not a good day for Phorm today, with the number of BT shareholders and employees leafleted and the EU news hitting the wires - so we can expect agent provocateurs - wolves in sheep's clothing - provocation - bear baiting etc.

We don't have to respond.

I suggest we leave the rabble to the moderators. With no one in mind - the forum has it's discreet ways of showing approval or disapproval via the forum tools. We can just use those, or PM's to the mods.

Let's keep the thread tidy for the visitors!

As Sgt Esterhaas said on Hill St Blues - Hey, Hey, Let's be careful in here!

Without being patronising we need to be able to direct people to places where they can get inphormation in a very easily digestible phorm.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

:welcome: and well done. You've got the idea.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree fully.

Today has been good for our cause, with the demo, the EU Demand, the survey and of course the guys spreading the word to the BT Shareholders and Customers.

I will only suggest that debate should be welcomed, but please everyone ensure that it is in line with Phorm, and don't let any individual distract you.

This is a great day for the Campaign, which solidifies the foundations - lets buid on it.

I propose that we discuss more methods to spread the word, and continue the momentum.

Congrats to all at the demo - good job. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wasn't there, but I'd like to thank everyone who went to the protest.

My ISP is not one of the Phorm Three, but if BT & Virgin adopt it, I have little doubt that they'd eventually follow suit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can't wait to get the rest of the Gossip about today on the Phorm /Webwise protest event at The Barbican. I wish I could have been there.

I think for a moment the Phorm PR may have thought the earlier smaller crowd than expected was maybe a good sign for them. Not at all. :)

I hope they first check out the EC news today and any other developments.

I strongly suspect there will soon be a lot of very burned investors in this illegal technology shortly. Anybody with a shred of technical common sense who has no actual ties with Phorm should be able to see that this outrageous system is doomed to failure due to the privacy issues that cannot be avoided without the system being an economic failure.

Unfortunately this includes the ICO and The UK Government who soon it seems are going to get their wrists slapped if they don't pull their finger out.

I really hope a couple of BT execs go to jail as an example to all others who think they can just railroad in invasive technology to all and sundry and override the privacy of the common people of this land.

Virgin Media I hope you are watching!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For the Pro-Phormers reading this I just want to make this point, we told people exactly how the system works (in so far as whats in the public domain). There was no scaremongering, those attending the protest all understand clearly how the current webwise product works. If anyone pro-phorm thinks that what is being said here is not correct then please post and correct people.

I'm talking correct as in factually, not with regards people opinions. Please also provide proof to back-up any corrections.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, a BT spokesman has now said BT had sought legal advice during previous trials of the technology in 2006 and 2007 and added the words "always acted in good faith" to the statement eh?

Now that is different to the line they have been spinning since the start of April when Emma-le-le-legal started trying to defend their position!! Me thinks this is the start of a turn around from them in the face of a clear recognition that the le-le-legal advice they "sought" (but did not "receive"??) was (or would have been??) completely wrong and telling them not to intercept the communication of their customers with lawful authority.

Re the protest against Deep Packet Inspection which VM, BT and CWTT still won't rule out... Well done people. And less anyone suggests, that whatever the numbers in attendance were, is a reflection of the number of people who will make a stand against it... Wrong. I was not there and I won't rest whilst this is still being considered in the UK or Europe as a whole.

---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:49 ----------

Yes, well said. Phorm, we are all ears and reasonable people, educated and willing to be shown how what we have learned so far is wrong and what we have worked out is incorrect. I'll listen if there's new info to consider.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I want to congratulate everybodyfor what sounds like a productive and professionally handled deomonstration. I am loathed that some family commitments prevented me from attending (everything seems to crop up when you don't want it to) but I shall pencil in the next one if and when it occurs. Also, hope you all sit down and crack open a bottle of wine before you start work on typing up the feedback and results of the day, you all deserve it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done to you all, as the saying goes its the few or the one that CAN make the difference not always the many, history is full of the few and the ones that changed the world.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

while today might not have been the mass protest we hope for, it sounds like the number reached a respectable level and it was a good PR win for those of us against phorm / BT Webwise

well done and thanks to all those who both attended to inform the public and those members of the public who listened to what we had to say and asked questions, a good well ordered protest that was thanks to the preperation and organisation in the background by alex and the others

thankyou to you all

on a a slightly different note, did anyone see members of the press? and how did the handing in of the evidence go at the police station, any press there?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A quick pic (click to enlarge):
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

There were others there but across the street handing out leaflets.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: I am sure there are many like yourself. Keep spreading the word.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

something funny happening with the shares today, iii,lse and official stock exchange pages listing volumes of 130,000+ but nowhere seems to be displaying anywhere near this volume?? and the price went up

i am confused

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - I think that is a very significant change in tone. I've been reading BT public statements and emails for a few months now - and I think I am fairly well attuned to their style, and reading between the lines etc. and that is the first time I have seen anything quite like that - "acted in good faith". That sounds like butt covering to me, but they'll need something a bit bigger and less "transparent" to cover this up.

It sounds like the first move in a defensive rear-guard action. Up to now they have always said that they had legal advice and asserted their confidence. Now they are making what sounds like an excuse - practicing their plea in mitigation perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could it perhaps be because up until now they've been assured by their friends in high places (just look look at the list of politicians on the board of BT) that the government would turn a blind eye to their plans? Now that the EU has released details of the threatening letter to the UK government ("sort it...or else....") they feel very vulnerable all of a sudden. Good. Smarmy creeps.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, first off what a brilliant day. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the single most effective thing we did today was to give out those leaflets. Without them it really would have been a bit disastrous (top marks to Alex for sorting those out).

I can't believe how many people were interested in what we had to say, and as has already been mentioned, most were astonished and horrified. Usually the first thing anyone said was "that can't be legal can it?" - We met some real characters on the street today, not least of which were the other protesters of course :P

I now have terrible cramp. Does anyone know how to get rid of a golf-ball sized muscle lump?

On a side note, one smartly turned out chap came over early on who smiled at Alex and asked him if he was disappointed with the turn-out, only to be met by our smiling faces and the offer of a leaflet for his perusal. He seemed so chuffed that we strongly suspected he was a Phorm exec. He even managed to take our picture, which I strongly suspect will make it into the Phorm PR release about the event, as at the time there were only 6 of us present.

Like Jtechs and Madslug I lost count of how many leaflets I handed out, but I was measuring the volume in inches, that should tell you something.

When Baroness Miller turned up with her attendant in tow I was very happy to discover that she comes across as a very warm and caring person, very down to earth and certainly not afraid to mix with the Hoi-Paloi (sp?). The lack of numbers was certainly made up for by the friendly and approachable atmosphere. No-one turned up to spoil the day - they would have stood out like a sore thumb.

Top job everyone, and looking forward to Pete's report. Oh, and there was a reporter from ZDNet who went with Alex to the Police station, but I had to leave at that point.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Never in the field of cyber conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.
Thank you ;) .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You can't argue with that!

Thank you to all who were able to get there and spread the word!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the last week or so the trades have been a bit strange - loads of "late trades" - trades appearing on the wrong day, - several days late.I expect there will be some late trades shown tomorrow. Google has a fall back down to 714.75 on its graph which LSE doesn't.

I don't profess to understand this stuff!

Edit - thanks to Deko - that seems to cover the gaps. I see there were no SELL entries at values higher than 714.75, and most of the selling was early in the day at 650.

The buying was small volume in the middle of the day, and seemed to be at above the going rate - small purchases at up to 900 but no SELLS at anywhere near that rate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A big thanks to all those who managed to get down to London today.

The link below appears to be where BT will post a summary of the AGM questions. There is nothing there yet, but should be later tomorrow.

http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperfor.../Questions.htm

Hopefully some fretting going on in BT bunker tonight. :)

Presumably they will post the answers as well, and they wouldn't try to spin shareholders, would they? :shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which site did you get that list from?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...uk_over_phorm/

The way i read this, is by EU law phorm can only profile a person if they give consent. Therefore the only way for phorm to be legal is for people to opt in, in which case they would have a tracking cookie added. If they were to do it the other way & put a cookie on the people who dont opt in, the cookie could get blocked & thier system profile someone not opted in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think we should keep a good eye on that website. If they try to mislead or misinform any of the shareholders in any way, we have another avenue of attack.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just seen 100 people viewing this thread well done guys you certainly have stirred up new intrest :welcome::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done those who attended the protest, it looks to have worked out well.

For information Steve Gibson's Security Now SN53 with Alex's interview is now available from his servers:

http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-153-lq.mp3 for the 16kbs version

The HQ version will also be there but not sure of the link - when he initially uploads them he changes some of the letters to uppercase until it is 'officially' released.

Just downloaded it, but listening will have to wait till the morning.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BTW what si offical signature count on the downing street petition, had a nice call from virgin today trying to get me to take up 50mb when it comes, kinda pointed out depends on phorm if the implatment it all my services go bye bye and that about £70a month jsut now, person tried to say virgin aint dealign with phorm and there no such company had to laugh then hang up.

EDIT: Good work by those who protested :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A warm welcome to any BT Shareholders or employees or ordinary members of the public enquiring about Webwise/Phorm for the first time and trying to find out exactly what all the fuss is about.

We are delighted to see you. :welcome:

Please pop over and have a look at the BT Beta forums Webwise thread.

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0

I'm afraid BT would only allow us one thread to discuss Webwise and Phorm but it's been lively. Today was a bit of a one man band, because several key contributors were away but if you scroll up you will see the discussion, and you can also search on Webwise in the BT beta forum search list to find earlier threads that got terminated. You don't need to login to view.

You might also find the Webwise FAQ from BT
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/ann.jspa?annID=64
- please compare it with another independent one here from a site opposed to Phorm/Webwise
http://www.phonecallsuk.co.uk/bt-webwise.html
and also to the information on these sites

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/welcome.htm - lots of info for first timers.
http://www.dephormation.org.uk/ - site concerned especially for the copyright issues that trouble those of us who run websites and don't want to be exploited without our consent, by Phorm/Webwise

These sites are a good place to start your learning curve on Phorm/Webwise.

The site put up by Mr Alex Hanff who organised todays demonstration is in an early stage but has lots of useful information already - there is a library of documents being built up, letters from regulators, leaked BT documents about the secret trials - a real resource.

https://nodpi.org/ - that is an https secure site, which is the only way we can guarantee that Phorm/Webwise won't profile it.

Happy reading - and come back!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem with using a cookie is that the system has to be able to read it. To read it, the system has to intercept the data stream.

The problem with the current system is that the OIX scripts hosted by partner sites is looking for the opt-in/out cookie to decide which advert to display. It reads as though the OIX will be targeting all visitors in some way - using a tracking cookie like the other ad networks? - so the current system relies on finding either a 'webwise cookie' or an 'oix cookie'.

The talk has been of providing a cookie-less variant for the final implementation. The technical details of this will make for some interesting reading. [The same code injection displayed by the 2006/7 trials? - similar to the NebuAd method]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Only problem with a cookie variant is my router blocks tracking cookies, therefore the cookie system will make phorm fall foul of the law as i wont agree with opting in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

welcome to the 65 guests looking and listening, please log in an make yourself and your opinions known, as well as adding your voice to the debate

there also seems to be a few members i do not recognize, come on speak up
peter

---------- Post added at 21:40 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

i have been trying to make sense of the share price movement today, i can only come to one conclusion

shares seem to be like women, nothing about either of them makes sense O(:-)

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi,

Long time lurker, but, pretty much a permanent nagger of friends & colleagues. Well done on raising the profile of Phorm at the demo.

I've got 7 Virgin customers plus myself who have informed Virgin that we are leaving the second they have anything to do with Phorm.


Cheers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

welcome Xerxes, keep going, the only way the ISP's will listen is when they lose revenue

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Xerxes, Keep up the nagging its exactly that attitude:) that will win the day

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome Xerxes! Nice of you to join us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

off topic oops wrong thread oops thank you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ebay adchoice system is :notopic: for this thread. Please see http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/25...ng-system.html thank you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Further examples of "more relevant" advertising from BT: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ne...cerns-403.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

alex how did the evidence go down with the police??

how many flyers did you have to take home, or did you get through the lot?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just got home will post an article on NoDPI in the next hour.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does anyone understand the connection between Phorms major invester, Gestrust SA and it's prime mover Marc Angst (good name), his other strange company Arxiel, and their collection of dubious penny stocks like Identica Holdings Corporation?

I'm still wondering if Phorm was ever meant to be a serious company, or just a penny stock scam.

Odd that Phorm says that it hasn't issued a press release since 15 Apr 08?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just found this on ico website, not seen it before

********
Q: I’ve heard that the ICO has gained new powers. When will they come into force? Will you be producing guidance?
The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act has received Royal Assent creating tough new sanctions for the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO).This new legislation gives us the power to impose substantial fines on organisations that deliberately or recklessly commit serious breaches of the Data Protection Act.

The finer details including time scales and amounts to be fined still have to go back to Parliament to be signed off.

We will then be producing guidance on the new powers. Unfortunately, we have not been provided with a timescale. However, we will place more information on our website as matters progress.
*******
does this mean the ICO "MAY" be given a set of dentures to deal with the likes of BT and phorm

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great job by all the people who turned up and informed more people about Phorm and the isp's, im one of the people who couldnt go due to commitments but have to say thank you for everything you guys did today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to work that out you need to find out what is happening to all the cash sloshing around in phorm, what purpose is it being used for or is it just sitting gaining interest?, is it being siphoned offf as directors drawings or bonuses?

the next set of interim accounts will be interesting to see out goings and what headings they put what amounts under

the rate of usage of the cash will also give an idea of how long phorm can survive with no income

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I still can't understand how they have guzzled so much money in `Administration Expenses' at the Trafalgar Square renta-desk.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking at the directors of Phorm, you've got some of the highest level people in the industry, I don't think they would get involved unless they saw the big easy £/$/₩

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the answer is to use the Safari web browser - from the BT Community Forums (http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...180&tstart=0):

BT Webwise works with most major browsers, including Internet Explorer, Firefox, Netscape and Opera. Safari is not supported by the BT Webwise system. BT Webwise has been tested and proven to work with the following:

Internet Explorer 5.5, 6.0, 7.0
Firefox 1.0, 1.5, 2.0
Opera 7.54, 8.54, 9.0

It is the first time as a Mac user that I am glad that something is not compatible!

You can get Safari here:

For Mac: http://www.apple.com/safari/download/
For PC: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macos...safari311.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you to all who were able to get there!

You are all stars, thank you again to you all!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While it is a current solution, there is the danger it will only be temporary. As I'm sure Dephormation Pete would say, the only solution is to move to a non Phorm ISP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

digging around eu docs

***

(b) IP addresses
The Working Party 29 observes that in the context of the discussion of the ePrivacy
Directive the issue of whether IP addresses are personal data has been raised. The
Working Party 29 recalls that, in most cases – including cases with dynamic IP address
allocation – the necessary data will be available to identify the user(s) of the IP address.The Working Party noted in its WP 1367 that"… unless the Internet Service Provider is in
a position to distinguish with absolute certainty that the data correspond to users that
cannot be identified, it will have to treat all IP information as personal data, to be on the
safe side…." These considerations will apply equally to search engine operators (WP
1488).
*****

that clears that up, and the reason why phorm are trying not to capture IP's

my bold

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great tongue in cheek take on the Bt/Phorm Q&A posted by Mark H on the BT Community Forums:

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=180&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Strictly speaking (and someone correct me if I am wrong in any way) nothing is incompatible with the Phorm webwise system with a bit of tweaking. Insomuch that Phorm/Webwise rely on DPI (Deep packet inspection) to intercept the data stream. This means that apart from browser headers being different the data contained within can be intercepted just as easily.

In a nutshell its like me saying your letter in the Royal Mail system cannot be opened by the postman (hypothetically) and read if it has an airmail sticker on. Or alternatively as another example, its like saying terrorists cannot be investigated online by the special services (and with a valid court order) if they use the Safari Browser when on the net. Its just not true!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is not the answer, the answer is to stop Phorm. Most people use IE, technology is scary to a lot of people and they stick to what they have/know.

The Phorm/Webwise system preys on people who do not understand technology, and frankly why should they need to. What is happening technologically with Phorm is disgusting, EVERY expert on internet technology hates this.

It is incredibly easy for Phorm to switch and track Safari users. It's the classic safe today, at risk tomorrow.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

rob, pete

you to like pulling docs apart and getting info

have you seen http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...7/wp136_en.pdf

titled "Opinion 4/2007 on the concept of personal data"

one of the opening para's is

*******
The Directive contains a broad notion of personal data
The definition of personal data contained in Directive 95/46/EC (henceforth "the data
protection Directive" or "the Directive") reads as follows:
“Personal data shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable
natural person (“data subject”); an identifiable person is one who can be identified,
directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one
or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or
social identity”.
It needs to be noted that this definition reflects the intention of the European lawmaker
for a wide notion of "personal data", maintained throughout the legislative process. The
Commission's original proposal explained that "as in Convention 108, a broad
definition is adopted in order to cover all information which may be linked to an
individual"2. The Commission's modified proposal noted that "the amended proposal
meets Parliament's wish that the definition of "personal data" should be as general as
possible, so as to include all information concerning an identifiable individual"3, a
wish that also the Council took into account in the common position4.
*******

that just about seems to cover the unique ID no. and the keywords / data contained in the profile

what do you think?

i feel a few more letters about to hit the postbox :)
peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

https://nodpi.org/2008/07/16/protest...can-a-summary/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My day at the BT AGM 2008. With huge thanks to the people who made it possible. I didn't get thrown out or arrested thank God :)

I'm sure you'll enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed participating...

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/?page=27

I don't think BT's AGM 2008 could have been much more difficult.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

also from the same doc

********
It is useful to recall that the
reasons for enacting the first data protection laws in the seventies stemmed from the
fact that new technology in the form of electronic data processing allows easier and
more widespread access to personal data than the traditional forms of data handling
*******
that seems to blow phorm and BT's arguement about perc etc being applied to situations they were not intended for

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have feeling you may be right. A quick look through Phorm's financial reports paints a picture of a company spending nearly 4 years development on an ever changing system that doesn't work.

Here are a few extracts (my italics):-

2004 Final Results

We have also invested, in the latter part of 2004 and early 2005, in our technologies and particularly the PageSense Javascript application.Our efforts at the start of this year have been to ensure that the application is sufficiently robust and scaleable, ahead of a full commercial launch.

2005 Interim Results

We are making good progress in using the information generated by PageSense Javascript...
We are also close to finalising a partnership agreement with one of the largest ISPs in the US, which we believe will set an important precedent for the deployment of PageSense throughout the ISP market.

2005 Final results

Our PageSense Javascript application analyses the meaning and context of a web page being viewed by a user in real time, allowing us to deliver targeted advertisements to that user.
As at April 2006, we have signed agreements with ten entities to implement our PageSense technology, and have now established relationships with most of the largest US ISPs. A number of the signed partnerships are currently in testing phase, and the full revenue benefits are expected to flow during 2006.


2006 Interim Results

We have made outstanding progress towards our goal of establishing 121Media’s PageSense technology as the ‘gold standard’ in contextual online advertising as well as consumer privacy. The Directors believe that PageSense represents the future of digital advertising.


2006 Final results

The Company is pleased to report its platform is in the final stage of evaluation by numerous major global ISPs.
The Company has built on its existing PageSense platform to create a new server-based architecture called ProxySense. In Q4 of 2006, we conducted a live user trial of PageSense with a UK ISP, and we are about to start a larger trial of ProxySense with a test base of several hundred thousand users.

2007 Interim Results

In June we announced that the Company had entered into Heads of Agreement with a number of ISPs. These Heads of Agreement, which represent substantial opportunities, set forth the basis under which these ISPs intend to deploy Phorm's technology platform.

2007 Final Results

Furthermore, we continue to be in advanced discussions with a number of other ISPs, both in the UK and internationally, and following extensive due diligence we have moved into the trial phase with a number of them..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My vote is still for using iCab - it is the only browser which has true control over 3rd party anything. I have even seen the browser logs rejecting .domain.tld cookies when you are on www.domain.tld - useful for the few nasty cookies which are set for the domain .co.uk

Any browser that you can set as being something other that what it actually is is probably a good bet. (logic being that the useragent will not be recognised)

However, whatever you do with your browser does nothing to stop your traffic being intercepted and profiled by the Level 7 switch hosted by the ISP. The only true solution is moving to an ISP who only uses DPI systems for legal purposes

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am pleased that you arrived home safely Alex and I am delighted that although we were small in numbers the day seems to have been a great success!

It was a pleasure to have met all present today and I wish you all a very good night.

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex you are amazing, I take my hat off to you!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

cant wait to see bt's spin on the q&a section of the agm

see if there are any reference to a loud mouth smart alec asking awkward questions about BT Webwise and secret(at least they were until someone leaked a doc) trials

Peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm just sorry I couldn't afford the train tickets..

Maybe the next protest will happen after I've got a job :( Or even better, maybe there won't need to be a protest, maybe the police will actually do something about the dossier of evidence handed over with no need for further EU wrist-slapping. That'd be nice *




*so would winning the lottery... and while we're on the subject of long shots...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i like the fact they were worried enough to change entrance to one round the corner to try and stop protesters talking to the investor, that alone speaks volumes

peter

---------- Post added at 00:44 ---------- Previous post was at 00:41 ----------

alex, did the police give you any indication if they would keep you informed about progress on your complaint about BT ?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If my re-collection is correct, Safari is not incompatible with Phorm's tracking "technology", but its default of blocking most types of third party cookies made getting the webwise.net UID to serve up targeted adverts a slight problem.

Unfortunately this would be very easily rectified - I won't say how as my approach might be better than whatever Phorm plan on doing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some are born great others have it thrust upon them and you sir have earned yours in the arena ,Gladiatorial work Pete you have my greatest respect and on behalf of my parents both BT retired shareholders(in their 80's) ,I thank you:nworthy::nworthy::clap:
Thanks for giving the board a:bsmack:they so deserved it

Bob aka TGLS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am in the same boat, I don't currently have a job because all my time is spent on Phorm, I can't pay next month's mortgage yet again and the bank are removing half of my overdraft on 1st August. But I still spend vast amounts of time on this issue and whereas I don't want to start having a go at people, it would really have been appreciated to see more people attend.

At the end of the day it didn't really matter (except it meant Channel 4 didn't cover the event in the end due to lack of numbers) because the people who did turn up made the day a great success, but if I am going to organise any more of these events, I need to know people are going to turn up, the amount of work involved is beyond vast and whereas the direct costs of the event were covered by donations, they are by no means the only costs and I simply cannot afford to keep taking all this work on myself (that is not meant to disrespect the people who have obviously contributed but is a general comment to the general public).

So as I said, I am not going to make a big deal about it, the day was very successful, but a campaign cannot be won by people posting opinions on the web alone, it needs commitment in other mediums as well. This protest was a good chance for people to hit the street and make a difference, so I think it is only understandable that I was a little disappointed at the turn out.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 00:49 ---------- Previous post was at 00:49 ----------

Yes, as I said on NoDPI they will be in touch in due course.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great report Peter and thank you.

I think you did really well and I certainly think your questions raised some awareness.

Some of my future pension and certainly that of some of my BT working friends is related to BT's survival and I and most certainly them, wouldn't want BT to go totally AWOL with their Phorm/Webwise nonsense and the probable court costs incurred due to law breaking.

I just hope BT come to their senses and kick Phorm out of bed and out of their ( and our) head!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wow I am amazed that you managed to ask BT so much, I bet you end up in TB's littel Black Book! :D

Good on you for getting in so many questions. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dave,

It was great to meet you thanks for all the hard work and I look forward to receiving the video footage.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Absolutely, luckily BT shareholders have more intelligence than BT gives them credit. When Pete(dephormation) asked his questions, many of the shareholders were curious as to what this was all about. The team outside were greeted with a plethora of shareholders asking to explain what he(Pete) was talking about.

Again, just to re-state, the information we provided wasn't negative spin, it was factual. The information in the fliers is 100% correct.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the big factor in people not being able to attend was the mid week date, but that was beyound your control alex as it was the date set by BT for their AGM, i would suggest any future dates should be a saturday so more people can attend without having issues with work.

but well done, by the sounds of it it was a small well controlled demo, no locals or investors where harassed or intimidated by a large crown, but importantly the message sounds like it was put across to most if not all investors (and a few BT employees who attended a meeting after the agm)

well done, sort out the work issue first as wife and kids need to get a bit more priority for a while

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed and many thanks for PG from inphormation desk for producing the flier text in a language which was comprehensive to the general public. We handed out over 1000 fliers today and they all went to interested parties as opposed to just shoving them into the hands of random passers by.

One very interesting situation which I almost forgot. There were some BT OpenReach lawyers there who discussed the system with one of the campaigners and until then had no idea that it was even happening. There were some very frantic phone calls made by them to their colleagues and they took a fist full of fliers with them to discuss the matter further.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 01:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:59 ----------

It isn't as easy as that unfortunately. I have a job lined up but I need to sit my exam before I can start it and that requires a great deal of time and concentration which is almost impossible for me at the moment as there really is so much going on that it is impossible to concentrate on an exam at the moment.

Furthermore, I have a responsibility to this campaign and this very much involves my own family as I am fighting to protect their rights as well. If I drop everything now what happens? Kent will see it as a victory and it could set the campaign back significantly. I didn't ask to be in this position but I am and I can't abandon my post at such a critical time.

The press and media interviews I give, the meetings with Peers such as Lord Northesk and Baroness Miller, the work I am doing behind the scenes to organise meetings and phone calls, the case now in the hands of City of London Police; they all need to continue and without them the campaign suffers significantly.

It simply isn't possible to walk away from this, it is a responsibility I have to bare (and do so gladly because it is an issue I am absolutely dedicated to and passionate about) and I will continue to do that to the best of my ability.

There is no choice to make between money and civil liberties, civil liberties must take priority every time they are the most important aspects of everything we are as a society and of democracy itself, nothing is more important than that. I can't just switch off after thousands and thousands of hours of work, it would be inhuman to do so and I simply can't. This might not make sense to some people I guess I don't know how to explain it better I only know how I feel and I simply cannot drop this, irrespective of any hardship I may encounter as a result. I only wish I could earn money half as quickly as Phorm are losing it ;)

This is real life, this is what it is all about, not what you are worth in financial terms but how you choose to live and the decisions you make. This is not just about us, these issues have extreme reach and will effect the lives of our children, their children and beyond. Once these rights are dissolved they don't just fall back into our laps, they are gone pretty much forever. I have a family, I have a duty to protect them at all costs, as do we all.

I am probably not making much sense because my head is spinning from the days events, but I say these words with the utmost of sincerity and people really do need to wake up to the realisation that life is not about today or tomorrow, it is about the future, it is about what we can all achieve for the betterment of that future and it cannot be measured by how much money you have in the bank, that really doesn't matter.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

alex i am not saying abandon the fight just swing the priorities alittle more towrds the family, to keep a roof and food

keep up the fight,

as wolfie from "citizen smith" always said "power to the people" (for those of you old enough to remember the seventies tv programs that is)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Only 1000? No wonder my throat was so dry after all that talking.

I feel that one of the many successes of today was that there were not that many demonstrators there. It gave us a lot of open space which allowed people to walk passed and amongst us without feeling intimidated. It also made it easier to get eye contact with the public to engage them in conversation. Even those wearing BT IDs did not all run away (as Alex mentioned with the in-house laywer).

The most rewarding was the shock reaction from so many. And the fact that most people seemed to be very happy that someone was taking the time to warn them about the threat to their privacy. Yes, Joe Public regards this to be an invasion of their privacy.

My one regret is that every time I saw the computer I was reminded that not once had I mentioned to anyone that they could sign the petition here and now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And I hope VM have some proper lawyers also. Too much of this Pro Phorm legal analysis by 'unknown' bodies may been dreamt of as far as I am concerned

If anybody has a Pro-Phorm/Webwise proper legal analysis that is compliant with UK (or maybe even English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh) Laws that they can they quote and they will happily put forward for analysis, we would be very interested.

It is really becoming a bit boring having quotes from American companies regurgitated by Phorm long ago about unrelated laws that currently do not hold true now in their own country (USA). There are some very tough questions currently being asked to ISP's by the powers that be in the states about similar DPI interceptions.
Did I hear a nervous laugh?

I am very baffled that this UK Webwise/Phorm possibility is even still on the agenda sheets.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex if you don't get some proper sleep you will end up in A&E, So take some time off and recharge your batteries, and spend some quolity time with your wife and child.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The reason we are in this mess in the first place is because most of the country are sleepwalking through their lives. I won't.

I will sleep when the time comes as always happens, I won't end up in A&E there is no danger of that, I am not stressed I am elated and full of life. I will be going to bed shortly but I couldn't sleep now even if I wanted to, it takes a little time to wind down from a day like today (I am sure everyone else who was there is in a similar situation).

Alexander Haff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

still digging around eu directives, while the couple in the next room of the hotel keep me awake

just seen this in EU directive 95/46/EC

**************
(41)
Whereas any person must be able to exercise the right of access to data relating to him which are being processed, in order to verify in particular the accuracy of the data and the lawfulness of the processing; whereas, for .the same reasons, every data subject must also have the right to know the logic involved in the automatic processing of data concerning him, at least in the case of the automated decisions referred to in Article 15 (1); whereas this right must not adversely affect trade secrets or intellectual property and in particular the copyright protecting the software; whereas these considerations must not, however, result in the data subject being refused all information
*******

this would seem to indicate we are able to do a DPA request to get the information held in the profile if we can provide proof of our unique ID and they can't refuse it

as we are not adversely affecting their trade secrets or IP as we are not after information about the process for deciding which data to included just the information held about us

opens up a whole new avenue for investigation if it does go ahead in trail or full roll out

interesting

peter