Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmmm. You only have to shout about "Pilots" of a new system if you've got less chance of an actual rollout!

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting too that the ISP company logos seem to have gone AWOL too. First there were three, then there were two, and now there are none.

Surely BT haven't deserted them?

I knew they were only having a hot date with TalkTalk and the relationship had cooled off rapidly, I heard they were engaged to Virgin Media but VM didn't really want to talk about it, but I was sure that they actually had something going with BT and were living together and sharing stuff and servers and all that. Maybe they've had a tiff and Kent has sent back the logo? Or BT asked for it back? Or the web designer just forgot it?

Or could it be copyright problems with using stuff from the ISP sites?

Perhaps someone from Phorm can assist us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The changes to their web site re: Opt-In/Opt-Out clearly illustrates that they are still planning to use an Opt-Out model (or they would just say it is Opt-In and avoid mentioning Opt-Out at all).

Last time I saw that much BS was when I was visiting a farm in the country last year with my son. Their "new" website is quite amusing though, they are very clearly on the defensive and seem very worried that they are screwed, which is understandable because they are screwed.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know it's Friday night but where's everyone gone?
I noticed also on Phorms updated website in the section labelled news/endorser/quotes there is a repeat of the statement from Hansard that Baroness Miller made in the HoL on 12/6. Surley there should be a rebuttal of this now that she has been shown the true nature of the beast?
In fact, though I couldn't bring myself to read all of it (phorm), the little I saw seemed to be full of contradictions, lies and self-praise but no truthful explanations for the unknowing to see.

Chris.

PS: OT but why do I have to sign in every time I go to the next page on this forum or refresh to catch up?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The pub?

:drunk:

Me? I'm busy doing SVG pics for placards :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something to do with your cookie settings or security programs? Doesn't happen here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've checked cookies and have, in fact, got 9 cf cookies showing at this time. Everything was fine up until yesterday. Ah well, no big deal I can still sign in if/when I want to say something. Thanks anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The word Phorm does appear on the eBay link page now - "Raison D'etre - Within the Depths of Silence and Phorm"...ations - CD on CMI

I have never understood the way eBay bids on any search terms - even searches on domain names often gives eBay offering to sell it.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:03 ----------

Did anybody think to ask 192 about the scrapping of websites they were doing before they first published their 'directory'? Very badly behaved bot they were using too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been doing some transcription.

Not being a professional it's slow going. Done 0:59:18 to 1:04:45 so far. Going to get some rest and start again in the morning. :dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you could let me know where you have started I will know where to stop
so far I have completed 00:00 to 05:41 but we will get there.

rryles started at the hour

Mudslug has offered to complete some so if the start is at 1hour 30 mins we have it split into 4 slots then add them together and it is complete team work against Phorm is such fun...

Thank you to all who have offered.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Enjoyed this spoof story;

BT offers to ‘rip customers off some more’

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone seen this before... first a bit of background, I used to be on BT BroadBand, after last nights security hits and Avast stopping one trying to infiltrate my laptop decided its time to do a thorough scan of all system.
Found the following on the desktop (not the machine which was attacked, but the machine I originally setup with BT) using Microworld Anti Virus EScan (MWAV.EXE) in safe mode...

c:\windows\motive\BTBB\Uninstallhelper.exe//WISE0004.bin tagged as "not-a-virus:RiskTool.Win32.PsKill.1101"

anyone still on BT check for the same file c:\windows\motive\BTBB\Uninstallhelper.exe

This was flagged as crytical with MWAV

and no doubt compressed within the exe you will have the same

Obviously a leftover from bt broadband, any suggestions as to where someone might make a good analysis of this file, my system seems to be safe and cant find any links to auto run the file, so made a copy and deleted the original location. There were no registry entries pointing to it either so I am pretty sure whatever it did is history wiped away by multiple scans and ccleaner sweeps/registry cleanups.

Wonder if this was part of the btbroadband setup disk, I installed it once to see if anything was necessary then promtly un-installed it having found the usual unnecessary installations.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I definitely remember files in the BTBroadband Desktop help (which is what you had) throwing up false positives - mentioned and discussed on BT internal support newsgroup

We advise people never to use the BT CD for anything other than bird scaring in the garden. Their software is truly abysmal.

Here's a google search on uninstaller.exe refined with "btbroadband"
http://tinyurl.com/65x5nb
you will see several posts with similar issues

and here is a straight google search on the file WISE0004.bin
http://tinyurl.com/5coadz

NB - if concerned about tinyurl links - you can set tinyurl.com to give you a preview of the real link text before being directed to it. I'm using the tinyurl so as not to spread the forum horizontally over six feet of screen real estate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all,

A quick thanks to all the regulars on this board. You commitment has made it possible to stop Phorm.

Given we are about to hit a horrendous recession I don't think Phorm or BT can afford a national rollout... Having said that I think we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

keep going. I will try and be at the protest

ps the reason for the quote of Pete.... Phorm have a horredous cash burn rate and no chance of raising finance. Happy days

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's classified as a Risktool rather than malware. Risktool is a category used by AV software to define what a file can do, rather than anything else. I would guess that the uninstallhelper file is capable of stopping a running a process to enable the uninstall to proceed. The pskill classification would imply that is the case. Most process termination utilities are classified as risktools. Many specialist malware removal utilities are classified as risktools because of the actions they are capable of performing. AV software would be remiss if it didn't try and make a determination, but everything that AV software finds is not a virus or any sort of malware.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks all for the re-assurances and I dont want this to lead off-topic into a virus problem, my curiosity was sparked by it being a BT uninstaller linked with WISE on a cd I received somewhere between the 2006 and 2007 trials (which at the time everyone was blissfully un-aware of)(cant remember exactly when I received it but the CD wont have been updated very often I shouldnt think).
And could this have been a measure by BT to cover any remnant trace of the activities. In which case the cd has evidence.
I remember when joining BT Broadband I felt like they were pushing the installation of the CD a bit too much for my liking, which could have been just to ensure the target audience didnt stuff up the installation of the HomeHub, but it turned me away from keeping any part of it on the computer, apart from the fact which I concur.... it was mostly crap. Suspicious old me, but right now I think we ought to be.
EDIT: I wonder how many of those problems we just googled fall in the same time period.

Edit2: @ALEX... I have spent a couple of hours tweaking the recording, managed to clean it up a little so that the background noise is not so shrill and the voices come through clearer, and eliminated hum and hiss, but anymore editing using my software starts to result in loss of parts of the Earls voice, particularly when you try to get rid of the crockery clashing sounds. Those are now slightly quieter, but if your sound engineer friend is still on the case then he will probably do a better job if he has dedicated equipment. For your own benefit, after playing around with various methods and undo-ing, I decided to give WavePad (didnt install the extras which are offered during installation) a try instead of audacity, and using Wavepads 'Remove Noise or Hiss' in the sidebar, followed by an Effects High pass filter at 250hz resulted in the improvements I have over your version. Also you have to Edit Select all before these work I believe ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Tops" oop's

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I dunno if we missed this?

Over on "What Do They Know?" - FOI requests, including one with an answer from 9th July:

1. Overdue request to Home Office here: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...mation_about_r

2. Request to West Mercia Police due 23rd July:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...lating_to_line

3. Request with response from Home Office about contact with BT and Phorm/121Media:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...#incoming-1874

All interesting stuff!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's fascinating. I'm getting much the same result with the Home Office. My FOI is currently under 'internal review' at the Home Office.

Simple questions to answer. Who asked for advice, when did they ask for it, what was the request & reply. Why should that be difficult to answer? :scratch:

Regards the ICO response, they just don't seem to 'get it'. You can't guarantee to me you can anonymise a block of data from the internet, its not possible. Your web traffic is personal data; BT/Phorm processed it, QED. And how do they decide there was no privacy risk without a critical analysis of the evidence of leaking profile information in forums and blogs.

ICO shouldn't be dabbling in stuff they don't understand. They need to hire independent expertise if they don't understand the internet. They are hopeless, absolutely incompetent to be regulating BT/Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From Baphorm - a blog about what Phorm appear to get up to in South Korea. It is an email thread relating the tale of someone allegedly a Phorm VP, exploiting old Doubleclick contacts in S Korea to garner some contacts/intro's in S Korea so they could allegedly do some 4-6 week trials of their technology. The guy gets strung along, promised a paid hotel room in Seoul for a face-toface meeting - spends time and money going to Seoul, but Phorm allegedly never pay for the hotel room and never turn up. Hotel boot him out.

This is certainly compatible with the Phorm we know.
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...ok-not-to-use/

Enjoy. Of course - I cannot verify this. It may not be true. Decide for yourself.

If it is true, is this the sort of company BT want to keep?

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

In addition- they repeat the assertion that no one suffered significant harm - which Stephen Mainwaring would disagree with, and they know that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well the two people mentioned are listed as being on Phorm's executive team, so the story has some credence.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm having a problem doing the transcribing at the moment due to the painkillers after my surgery.I thought it would be an easy task, but the morphine is really knocking me about at the moment. I'll continue to work on the section, but i'm not sure how long it will take me :(

Sorry for letting folks down.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What we really need is someone who can take shorthand and then type it up. The efforts of the transcribers are to be applauded but it must be really hard work, stopping and starting the 'tape' so to speak.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm using some this software:

http://www.nch.com.au/scribe/index.html

It is free, does variable speed playback and various other functions designed to make the job easier. It's available for most OS's though I'm finding the hotkeys don't work properly under Ubuntu.

Ravenheart - Don't feel bad. Anything, no matter how small, is a help. Your personal health is more important though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh stop moaning and get back to work!!!!!

Kymmy ;)

PS...before anyone has a moan at me I've known this slacker for years :p:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I probably won't be able to do any more transcription until early next week. Here's what I've done so far. (File is plain text but uses Unix style line endings - WordPad should be able to open it but Notepad will probably make a mess of it)

rryles

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've added another server side 'dephormation' method.

I'm ashamed to say I've lost track of the person who first suggested this to me, and I wish I could say the idea had occurred to me first, but it didn't. The code removes Phorm cookies from your domain, and sets the user to 'OPTED_OUT'. Not necessarily suitable for all sites (esp those with no cookie policies), and obviously completely dependent on the method Phorm ultimately use to inject their parasitic evil into your communication traffic

No code to write, simply copy my php into your web site folder, and plonk an image on your pages like the one below (or a better one if you're a graphics wiz).

If you're on shared hosting you might even be able to opt out all the web sites on your shared host, by setting the 'domain' parameter value in the setcookie functions appropriately. Eg, blueyonder.co.uk. Wonder if that would work? :)

Update; rats, of course it occurs to me you're still at the mercy of Phorm... they still copy your content regardless. It just makes it harder to profile the user. SSL that's what you really need. No two ways about it.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/1.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No worries I am sure this will be completed before i go for a few days break after my hospital appointment this week.


Thank you for that will try that since windows media player refuses to let me rewind back..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

rryles,

Just read the transcript. Thanks for doing it.

I particularly like this quote EoN> I think that's a legitimate concern. I've said previously with respect to the behavioural advertising that I have an antipathy towards it philosophically and I really do. It relies on a presumption that we are all content to subdue our spirit of enquiry and it relies upon an assumption that, as it were, we all lead very normal and straight forward lives. Actually we don't... and as you correctly identified there are some people who's lives are extremely difficult, extremely dangerous, by vurtue of the possibility of partners and/or relatives...

This is why the lords is a good thing. Unelected seats do allow genuine independence of thought.

Also it sounds like 80/20 have dropped Phorm - completely reading between the lines of course.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Publicising the Protest Event

OK, guys, we have a mere four days until the protest in London. I suggest we concentrate our minds very hard in publicising the event as best we can in the few remaining days.

I will spend a good deal of time within the next few days posting details of the event in every forum, newsgroup, blog, etc. that I can manage.

I respectfully suggest that other people do the same.

If anyone has any more ideas about publicising the event, please post them here and share them, so everyone else can do the same.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is more than one way to use that software, depending on your preference. You can set it so that every time you stop plaback it moves back up to 5 seconds.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is what I came up with, and yes I'm well aware something this hard line isn't appropriate for many sites. There's also the problem where adware scanners may remove only the webwise cookie, something else for Phormed ISPs to deal with!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

{FirePhorm}
Request URL: http://www.dephormation.org.uk/serve...phormation.php

(Originating URL:http://www.dephormation.org.uk/serve...phormation.php)

Method: GET
Host: www.dephormation.org.uk
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9) Gecko/2008052906 Firefox/3.0
Accept: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
Accept-Language: en-gb,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.7
Keep-Alive: 300
Connection: keep-alive
Cookie: webwise-test=SYGGfXWiQMuawIuR0qMJxw||
Cache-Control: max-age=0


Response - status = 200

Connection: close
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:47:46 GMT
Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET, PHP/4.4.6
Set-Cookie: uid=deleted; expires=Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:47:45 GMT
OPTED_OUT=YES; expires=Wed, 28 Sep 2016 15:47:46 GMT; path=/
Expires: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Cache-Control: max-age=0, no-cache, no-store, must-revalidate
Pragma: no-cache
Content-Type: image/png





I think you might be creating the wrong type of cookie there. (uid & OPTED_OUT are webwise.net "master" cookies)

According to R.Clayton the phorged cookie will be labelled / contain "webwise" and the value of the opt-out cookie will be "OPTED_OUT".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Important breaking news on iPM on data collection and snooping and changes in way interception of communications will take place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ipm/ - there is a link to the podcast - I imagine it will eventually surface on the BBC Technology pages.

podcast here - http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/...80712-0545.mp3

I think this sounds significant - talks about probes "in the network" that can report direct to the surveillance teams without the permission of the operators.

Sounds just like the mobile phone equivalent of Phorm's DPI equipment.

I haven't heard the details yet - but it made it to the Saturday PM bulletin so will also be on the BBC PM page.

Also includes an item about the police and ecrime and the Lords follow up report.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cheers, I'll check that out.

Mind you, given how uncertain Phorm were when they told Dr Clayton how their own system worked, it could be anyone's guess what it actually does. :nutter:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So... no suggestions for publicising the upcoming Protest?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just looking at the text of Richard Claytons analysis... it is very confusing.

It talks about a 'webwise' labelled cookie for the UID. Does that mean the cookie is named webwise, or the name is chosen by Webwise?

And when it talks about the method used to copy the 'OPTED_OUT' value, it says "If the user has set a cookie within the webwise.net domain indicating that they do not wish to be tracked, then this preference setting will be copied (by the method already outlined) into the cookies created for all other domains. That is, the cookie for these domains will have a generic "OPTED OUT" value and there will be no UID".

Is that name "OPTED_OUT" and value "YES" per the webwise domain??

This whole thing is such a technical shambles. See para 33 - if you opt out, your UID is sprayed across every site you ever visited. Your visits to those sites would still be profiled, even though you thought you'd opted out, while the copied UID cookies persisted.

:bsmack:

We must stop this cack every being launched. It is cack. Utter utter utter cack.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

guy forkes mask and capes you dont want them to phorm you and serve you ad`s now do you one for all and all that.
:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably a short post & link to the main event story would be best.
https://nodpi.org/2008/05/30/protest-at-the-barbican/



Interesting what lengths BT are going to to get new customers.
http://12078.net/grcnews/article.php....privacy#48923

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Little bit of OT fun for the weekend.

Any forums members here thinking of bumping off their significant other? If so, do it now!

Because if Phorm/Webwise hits the Net he/she is going to know what you're up to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7503519.stm

:p: :p:

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Random thought... Is there a list somewhere/anywhere of "Computer Interest Groups"? You know the sort of thing - meet every so often in a local school/church hall.

Or, those computer trade shows? They tend to be organised by one or two people or small a committee, then show up every 3 or 4 weeks around here. Don't know how to contact though.

What about yesterday's papers - the Daily Mail I think I saw on Sky News as I walked into work, had a story about data/privacy on the front page... maybe they would do a follow up on Monday/Tuesday (doubt it's front page stuff but could be a lever to pull...?)

Hank

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

Another more useful/relevant idea perhaps:

Alexander, you might be planning to already...

I think Alexander or another of us could do a piece about the EoN meeting, wat we thought, the best bits of the EoN's comments, pick out the best laymens' questions answered... Obviously would need (or would it?) the OK of the EoN himself, and release it as a PR with the story including the prompt for London.

That's my best offer of promotion for the event. Perhaps it could get a mention in the press?

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My interpretation was that the name will either be, or contain "webwise" and the value will be a base64 encode uid number if you are opted in or the value "OPTED_OUT".

eg

webwise=SYGGfXWiQMuawIuR0qMJxw||

or

webwise=OPTED_OUT

I wasn't 100% sure the name would be "webwise" and that phorm wouldn't change it, so I coded my extension to detect the phorged cookie and its name using a regular expression that looks for a phorm UID in the set-cookie after the redirect from webwise.net occurs, so even if it is not "webwise" it should still work.

Indeed, none the less the Phorm PR team reckoned they'd convince Tim it's-mine-you-can't-have-it Burners-Lee it was a good thing once they'd explained it to him - I'd love to hear what he would have said in response! :D

Another problem with it, having a phorged cookie sent when you visit sites using HTTPS is going to break some sites with no obvious cause to the end-user.

BT might even need to find another site for online AGM voting as www.sharevote.co.uk sent me to an error page when I tried sending it a fake webwise cookie. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The South Korean hotel room scandal continues to develop. The original post is now withdrawn, as "apologies and promises to make this right" have been flying around. The explanation is here
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...etract-a-post/

I guess Phorm leaned on him with whatever Phorm of persuasion seemed most appropriate.

Word of advice for anyone attending a Phorm job interview - check they've paid the hotel bill in advance before you buy any travel tickets.

Did anyone copy the blog page?

Google cache of the original is here
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you are not able to do any more for now, I will see what I can do over the next couple of evenings to complete the missing 20 minutes.

If I can work out how to upload the file I have done, I will add it here. Text format and I think it should not corrupt the font and line feeds for MSWindows users.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

WayBackMachine? Unfortunately, nothing there . :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I still have the page open on my pc must have read it and went back to the Earls transcript.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've saved the google cache version to disk from Firefox as "Web page complete". So if anyone wants it, let me know by PM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try local Linux User Groups. Mine is SLUG (Surrey Linux User's Group).

O.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just been investigating the position of web site owners vis-a-vis copyright in the Phorm model, and came across this from outlaw.com The UK's E-commerce Regulations. An interesting read on the whole but the part on caching was particularly interesting. I don't know if any of this has been superseded since the article was last updated.

The part on caching wrt ISPs includes this little gem The date of last update is stated as December 2006 which means that BT must surely have fallen foul of this [interpretation] during their 2006 trials where they did in fact change the content. This also means (if I read it correctly) that they must comply with sites which state words to the effect of "I don't want to be analysed."

Also of interest Mere conduit protection is gone. I'd be interested to know if anyone was "phormed" in the trials whilst accessing torrent sites for copyright material. If so then BT must have had enough strikes to keep them off the net for many a year.

As the saying goes, "I am not a lawyer", but the people at outlaw.com are. My interpretation my be wrong, judge for yourselves.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

narr wont happen and we all know why sadly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also, if you want the contents, email me here. I'm the author...

However, you guys have it all wrong. You can read my response to your comments.

You guys have a different set of issues with Phorm than I do. I simply don't like being treated like **** & felt that way when they did. HOWEVER, if what the apology explained was true, supposedly "there was a mix up with the hotel." I'll be verifying that later this week.

The other issue, they are still wrong. They still manipulated me & screwed with me when I got there in terms of the time. One of the two apologized almost as if he was pleading for his family's life -- which honestly any of you should sympathize with. It wasn't easy to forgive or rather help him more than maybe he deserved, but acting in a vindictive manner by keeping it up despite the profuse apologies...would that made me a better person? Again, I'm complaining about different issues.

You guys have a different agenda...please understand that. And I don't think it was any of you guys, but the last comment before I replied was simply uncalled for. Whomever posted "anonymous" and started to call me names was truly in poor taste. I truly hope it wasn't anybody from here...

If I receive money, I will tell you guys...but that still doesn't excuse anything. I forgave on the thought that I didn't want his daughter wondering what was happening to Dad...maybe my heart bleeds a little too much, but again, that's why I think I'm better...at least I'll sleep better at night.



---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

I'll verify it. I'm the author...

I'll stake my life on it, but as shown in the other post, I deactivated it for now. I did so because the apology I got over this weekend seemed reasonable for now. I did not promise to "keep it down" if I find otherwise though.

However, please note when you guys comment about situations in a negative manner, it really does look like you are the persecutors and not the victims. At first, I accepted your comments simply because I was angry, but rational people read into constructive criticism and not blatant baseless attacks...I think I've read some relatively fair comments so far, but there are definitely lots of comments that are more emotional that people give less weight.

Just my 2 cents...

(esp. when someone calls others names without even knowing the facts)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Important to recognise, we are not all one. If you've got a concern with a particular individual perhaps you could address them?
I think you'll find many people consider they have been treated like **** by Phorm. Its a pattern that keeps repeating itself.
To quote K*nt "We're not Evil, we're the good guys here", "'I am not the Prince of Darkness". Why should anyone fear for their life?

From The Register...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/85.jpg
If you felt you'd been given an adequate apology, you did the right thing.
Are you suggesting people employed by Phorm fear for their lives?

Should we fear for our lives too do you think? (That's not a rhetorical question btw!).

PS almost forgot to add :welcome:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to the forum, I did post on the last one but I always use my name posting as anon isn't my style...


I can see your side of this sadly I still see you as being used, they used you in Korea, right now their shareholders are watching the floor fall out from underneath them. Phorm manipulate all the time take part quotes that are good and selectively avoid the negative even if linked in the same paragraph.

What you put up would have caused more companies to be scepticle of them he wasn't pleeding for himself it was more for the company as your daming evidance that the use people for their own gain.

Something we have said all along there isnt that much difference look at it this way the patent on this can go so far that nothing on your PC is safe if and I say if the programmer decides to change the get commands.

Now look at what thye did to you think about it can you trust them to be on the ISP network and keep thier word they will not dig deaper into your system to gather personal data?
Could you trust them to pay you your commission earned pimping your customers?


Many businessses are run on trust if you cannot trust them how can you work with them, allow them access to your customers?

See your events showed they promise but do not deliver that is the only reason for the begging you had shown them for what they are users.. plain and simple.

I do have a copy saved to my pc strange really since I was transcritpting the chat with the Earl of Northesk so didn't read it all so the page was still in the browser by the time i was going to reply I had already seen you had removed it.

I shouldn't hold my breath for anything from them they are takers and users about to change the way the WWW works and dont get it wrong if they get into the networks world wide they can hold every country to ransome, they can change content we see on the screen from the page we requested..

Would you trust your life to them if you were hanging off a ledge hundreds of feet up and only them to keep you alive?

I will leave you to ponder on that one have fun.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please understand Florence et al, but I don't know as much as you all regarding the issue. I used to work for Doubleclick, but I didn't see myself as an evil person...just someone who needed a paycheck to survive in NYC with my family at the time. I was in Engineering QA'ing our products.

While I understand the sales folks and upper management have a bit more that they are preaching, the point still is that my post was about inappropriate business practices towards little ole me. I didn't know I would go viral and get wrapped up in a cause that you all are working on. I respect your comments & your thoughts, but I don't want to be threatened or criticized for simply deactivating and taking my time in thinking this through.

I had a hard time in posting the first post about their behavior. It took me a solid 2+ hours to recollect all the emails & recount step by step what happened. I was angry from a standpoint that they just simply did something wrong as far as calling, but I do acknowledge they have other people to talk to. I just wish they would of made it VERY CLEAR that I was not on the priority list -- which up through today, I'm still confused a little frustrated.

I didn't get all the answers I wanted from the apology, but again, I thought of his daughter when he was making a plea...not Phorm. I may still put it back up, again, if any of the claims are wrong or still not as true as I feel they may or may not be. I'm still a little fuming over the whole thing, but I don't want to be responsible for someone being depressed if it truly was a mistake and potentially a family. That's all...

Anyway, onward...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

news flash cdibradon, think my 5 kids how happy they are surfing away knowing they can do it without anyone intercepting their data and profiling them and no ad`s served and no sale of their data, is it fair they should suffer cos of greedy sods who think they can do what they like with other peoples data and make money, well my kids wont be happy surfing away if isp`s are allowed to to use dpi kit for that, they be banned from the internet till they old enough to give legal consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tinyurl disagrees:

http://www.tinyurl.com/princeofdarkness

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is all a bit tangential and too personal for my taste. Comments made about Mr Brandon and Mr Ertugrul are inappropriate and don't help the debate; in fact, it could become an Achilles Heel. The thread was started to discuss the concept of a technology with the potential to impinge on privacy, not to vilify anyone who came within spitting distance. Let's keep it civil and focussed or it will all go down the pan.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey guys, just back after a week "off the grid", heading back to page 746, to catch up, anything exciting happened?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We didn't think of you as evil person.

Don't get me wrong doubleclick was a true opt-in formula and if I removed the cookies and didn't revist any sites using doubleclick i was no longer being watched but with Phorm regardles of if you opt in or out you will go via their profiler you only have their word that is will not be processed, a word that you have proved is dishonorable.

We again cannot delete cookies to be surfing free from observation as it is fitted inside the ISP network. The easiest way to describe it as stalking me everywhere i go over the WWW, has the ability if they decide to edit what i see to what they think i should see.

It has already been said in USA by a phorm director he sees it moving more into editing the internet sorry but his plea for his child is one child there are thousends out there that need protecting from phorm and the doctoring it will bring to the WWW.

Some say paranoia I say look at the past record of Phorm IE 121media.. Look at how they used you to gain access into Korea.. Honesty is the best policy but their is honesty and phorm's degree of honesty..

Manipulation isnt honesty anyone can say sorry after the event then continue to do the same thing to others it is only when it hits the news they start to panic which in your case they did..

I have to say that I wouldn't trust a child of mine on the internet once/if Phorm is implemented I do not wish to open my childs mind to any phorm of brainwashing. They can and will alter what people see in the browser the government in their greed fail the puiblic with this one but thye can stil save face by now implementing and improved DPS where we control our data and ISPs have no legal riught to allow third party partners access.. It will come since it is our right to decide who we give personal details to not Kent, phorm or the ISP.

You had a chance to help thios come about quicker I hope that they didn't manipulate you and now perhaps laughing at how easy it was to get this removed. Too late in many respoects since some have a copy for referrance..

Phorm are not here to make us an onymous they are here to harvest as large a database as they can to earn money for themselves, phishing is covered by the browsers 90% phishing is via emails or https which Kent says Phorm will not profile unless that is another manipulation of the truth..

What is truth in all they have said all these months and what is said to use the person to gain what they want?

You didn't answer my question you are stuck hanging off a ledge hundreds of feet in the air certain death if allowed to fall would you trust phorm staff or us if we both offered a hand to pull you up?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to clarify - I've personally put NO comments on your blog site. Only posts here and on BT Beta Forums - both in my real name. I'm not sure what the "calls others names" refers to so I won't get into that. If there is anything I have posted about your blog that you have an issue with, then do PM me and I will be happy to apologise or retract. At the time I posted here and on the BT forums I could only see a couple of comments on your blog and I did not refer to them in my posts, or add to them.

One of the issues in the debate here is about trust. Phorm has a past as 121Media, and their trustworthiness is a major factor. They are asking legislators and ISP users to trust them not to abuse their incredible prvileged position as a "man in the middle" of the internet, with secret unvetted software at the basic infrastructure level of our ISP network. Issues about how they behave, whether they tell untruths, deliver on promises, abuse people, other companies, legislators - are all relevant to our debate. We are hoping that they will never actually be allowed to attain that priveliged access to the infrastructure because they have repe4atedly show that they can't and shouldn't be trusted with such responsibility, and what they are promoting in their Webwise product is illegal anyway in the UK, and coming under increasing legal scrutiny in the USA as being illegal there too.

One can only speculate - but I wonder if Phorm had not been in the delicate position that they are in at the moment, here in the UK, whether they would have responded so promptly to the publication and dissemination of your blog. Are they thinking about YOU or about their business reputation falling even further than it already has? Only they can answer that, and they are not good at answering questions honestly.

Blogs are written to be noticed. I'm sorry you had the distressing situation - but it was on a blog on the internet - and these days, anything with Phorm's name on it, is going to go viral in a day or so, because people are actively searching for news about Phorm. We search because we don't trust either them or our ISP's, and we need to know what they are up to as early as possible - because they operate covertly - they do not tell us in advance - if they do tell us then it is a PR spun story, with only a casual relationship with actual truth. Because of your blog, we have some information about their supposed plans for South Korea, and we also have a story that is entirely consistent with what we already know about the ethical and behavioural standards of the company.

You had personally distressing treatment from Phorm in South Korea - and that must have been nasty - but hundreds of thousands of us over here have also been abused by them, in a more covert fashion - they've been abusing our personal data, and our intellectual property, and they have done it initially in a covert underhand deceitful way (compatible with their previous behaviour as 121Media where they seem to have had "covert" as their middle name) - and then more arrogantly and abusively, as the public spotlight swung onto them - and they moved into denigrating us as scaremongers and ill informed nerds. As the legislators started to question them they began to spin and dissemble, and put out misleading and fairly puerile PR. They have every intention of continuing to abuse us in this way, unless we can stop them. Key campaigners here have had personal experience of the kind of arrogance and rudeness shown to you, when they have met and had dealings with the CEO of Phorm so the VP's are only following the model already demonstrated by their CEO.

So thank you for letting us know how they behaved in your situation. You may feel it is a "different" issue - but from this side of the pond it feels like the very same rather arrogant and underhand Phorm we know and dislike and distrust. Believe us - as far as we can determine - the whole company has a history of functioning in a covert way and without much respect for individuals or the general public.

Best wishes - I hope you are properly compensated for your time and trouble and distress. But do let us know how Phorm do, in keepiing their promises. We have a growing list of broken promises over here. I hope their promises to you don't end up being added to it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What is needed is what the Earl of Northesk says the DPA needs.

Quote from the recording in the house of Lords curtesey of Alex.


Have to agree it is time we as the data owners are allowed to say who can and cannot use our data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One thing that no one has mentioned about this Korean story - this is our first chance of trying to catch any technical data on the current phorming scripts.

Anyone in Korea able to run some tests on their connections and let us see the results here?

Any info on browser redirects - urls the browser is sent to and which redirect sets which phorm/webwise/site cookie and contents thereof will be a most useful addition to our mean defences.

End of plea for help from all Koreans.

Isn't it amazing: Phorm come to the UK and people start to get fired because of their response to Phorm and its actions. Websites loss their integrity because the communication between website and visitor is no longer confidential. ISP customers start to wonder if visiting the internet is worth the risk.

Phorm goes to USA and wiretapping (in general) hits the news.

It sounds like Koreans begin to suffer the same fate. Welcome to the fight.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Brandon

Sir,

No one can fault you for wanting to be treated fairly, nor for treating other people fairly. It is admirable that you thought of one of Phorm employee's daughter when considering whether to take the post down. However, with much respect, I do think you're being a little bit naive on this issue.

Firstly, I seriously doubt that anybody's job would be on the line because of what happened. Secondly, it's great that you received an apology from Phorm, but I ask you to seriously consider their motive for apologising. Can you honestly say it is because they were concerned about the way they treated you, or do you think, perhaps, it had a lot to do with preserving their business reputation?

If you don't know much about Phorm, or its history, then that may not be an easy question to answer. Many of us in the on-line community have had extensive dealings with Phorm and its army of PR henchmen. For most of us, we would definitely say it is the latter rather than the former.

Remember, this is the same company which, along with BT, carried out covert trials of its spyware technology on hundreds of thousands of broadband users without their consent. It is the same company which has repeatedly tried to obfuscated the issues and 'manage' the backlash from the on-line community by hiring no less than five PR firms.

I'm sorry that you have been offended by some of the posts on your blog. Many of us feel very passionate about this issue. Please consider that while you were concerned about the welfare of the daughter of an employee of Phorm, many of us are equally concerned about the damage that this company is doing to people's confidence in their on-line privacy and security.

If you would like to understand more about why so many people are upset about this company and their spyware technology, you could do worse than start with the Wikipedia entry on Phorm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

I would then suggest you have a look at this:

http://www.phonecallsuk.co.uk/bt-webwise.html

'Webwise' is the named brand of the Phorm spyware technology which BT hope to implement.

Again, I am sorry if anyone has offended you. I hope that you will investigate Phorm in more depth and come to your own conclusions. We think the facts speak for themselves.

In my opinion, this is not a company to be trusted by any means.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ok guys - its getting close to the AGM, so now for a suggestion

Any of you attending the AGM, check your Shareholders Right, and see if you can initiate a Vote of No Confidence in BT's Board during the AGM.

This will be probably the biggest statement you can make.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

News flash Wildie -- your case to bash these guys just continues to get worse in my book. I'm not the person you should be attacking. I confirmed and repeated that all I did was remove or inactivate (with the chance of activating again -- but it's getting smaller and smaller with you guys getting on my back) a post that proved I was wronged.

The fact that the cache results of the post are still available online for your continued bashing, the fact that hundreds have already read the post and the fact that the guys are still in jeopardy with their own company doesn't go away after I posted that harsh set of criticisms against them -- so in essence I supported your cause already & you should be happy with it -- I did it for personal reasons, but it actually helped your cause which I never volunteered to be a part of.

Wildie and the others who really want to complain to me & get on my back -- you're making yourselves look worse & definitely not making the case for putting the post back up.

Florence was the closest to being civil & I appreciate her post, but come on...pick on the people you originally were picking on.

Like I said, I can understand your claims & problems, but be a little more tasteful in your criticisms & who you direct them to...



---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

Thank you Kursk.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Without knowing anything about BT's constitution, it is unlikely that one person attending and representing a very small majority of shares will be able to have their voice heard about something as important as a Vote of No Confidence. A block of 10% or more may have a chance. Any such proposal would also need to be notified to all the shareholders before such vote was considered.

It is a nice thought though.

Don't forget, what can be done. There will be some Directors retiring by rotation and seeking re-elections. Shareholders may be able to do something here. Proxy votes will then need to be counted, etc.

Just getting something into the Minutes could be interesting.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your comments are heeded phormwatch. I can respect your comments & I appreciate you backing it up with a little education and logic. I think you may have seen my last few posts - again, it was an issue I personally & directly had with the two sales guys that approached me & their specific actions this past week. I can't say much else because I don't know if I can even join the cause until they come here in full force -- if they do, I may consider it later.

Simply put -- taking advantage of old connections isn't fair or proper in my book. They also made a rough week even more painful & exhausting.

Nevertheless, I respect your concerns & like I've mentioned, I may activate it again. Only one of the two actually apologized. The other one expects me to call him? If I don't get a call from him and I have enough time, I may reconsider directing the criticisms his way.

They've both claimed to make it right, but now I don't know if honestly, I should take their money to compensate for my ills. To be frank, I would feel like a hypocrite even though I'm the loser in either case. Not sure...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree Mad

But theres no harm in trying. If a Vote of No Confidence can't be held, then there will be other ways...

... Directly questioning the viability of the investment to date in regards of Phorm
... Questioning the increase of wages and Dividends for the Board when they are responsible for the Illegal Trials - and balance this with the potential damage to BT as a Company

Just one failed re-election, after a reference to Phorm will be a massive success, and with the Press and Financial experts at the AGM - this will send a huge message, and may well push the Phorm fiasco into Mainstream Media and keep it there.

:angel:

More anonymous comments attacking me -- please have the courage to identify yourself
 

OK folks, I'm going to deny comments like this. Just a heads up...

I'm a bit frustrated with these baseless attacks that don't understand the situation. I may have forgiven one of the two & thus deactivated the post, but I think I've explained myself enough as to why. I hope you can help your supporters understand how to deal with situations politically.

New comment on your post #771 "To retract or not to retract a post..."
Author : anonymous ([Moderator Edit])
E-mail : [Moderator Edit]
URL : http://badphorm.co.uk
Whois : [Moderator Edit]
Comment:
Stop blubbing Brandon we can see through those crocodile tears. The Phorm idiots played you for a fool and you danced their tune. The reason why some of us aren't going to be your best friend and cry a river for you is because you nearly got into bed with those sneaky [Moderator Edit] with your keenness to scramble on board HMS PhromTitanic (and we have the cached posts now to analyse despite your attempts to scupper that really useful information -- to which I say "thank you").

Phorm is an evil piece of work Brendon, you should spend some time reading what ordinary people think about having their private communications spy upon and monetised for the benefit of a handful of greedy marketing and telcom execs - And 'YOU' could have been part of that [Moderator Edit] Brendon, count yourself lucky you only got shafted for travel and hotel expenses because we over here in the UK might have to live with the consequences of your ex-marketing buddies shafting handiwork for years to come.


[Moderator Edit (Rob M): Please see my comments below]

Re: More anonymous comments attacking me -- please have the courage to identify yours
 

Brandon - remove the badphorm URl immediately please from your posts here and on your site.

This comment is NOT reflective of badphorm, and is NOT by badphorm.

(Brandon - I am Admin on badphorm)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you find it wont be any of us lot

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Guys

I was hoping not to post this... but I must now.

It is commonplace now for members to post the badphorm URL when commenting to blogs and articles.

This is now posing an issue - namely that some comments are becoming abusive, and using the URL for badphorm can incorrectly reflect this as a view of badphorm.

This is not good practice. If you wish to mouth off at an individual, please refrain from using the badphorm URL.

However, this is not to ban any individual from using.

No good will come of badphorms good reputation being tarnished - in fact this will have the reverse effect and undo alot of the really good work you have all been doing in the past months.

This has been posted of badphorm and other Forums as required.

Thanks

Sammy

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, seriously folks. Let's keep our eye on the ball. I think we should concentrate all our efforts within the next few days on publicising the protest event at the Barbican.

I have been doing the rounds on the net. Any help is appreciated.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One thing that nags at the back of my head is this:

The company which is getting into behavioural targeted (B.T.) advertising is BT Retail. This is part of the BT Retail Division which also includes BT Business.

The AGM is being conducted by a business called BT plc for its shareholders.

OK, just words, you may say. However, the differences in the words is like addressing 2 people from different sides of the world.

Unless I have missed something, the management of BT plc is not the same as the management of BT Retail. BT plc will, as the major shareholder, have appointed the board/management for BT Retail and be relying on reports from that management board to have any grasp of how the business is doing. Most of this will be in the format of financial reports. Something like 'advertising revenue' is probably so small as to be lost under Sundry Revenue.

The average shareholder will have even less chance of knowing anything about what BT Retail is proposing.

Because it has to be assumed that everyone attending the AGM, other than a small handful, have no idea about any of this, they should be treated the same as any other innocent member of the public who is hearing about BT Retail's proposed usage of DPI Systems for B.T. advertising (rather than the usual usage of DPI for service management) for the first time.

In other words, the protesters need to come across as a group of people who are looking for the help of the shareholders and main Board of BT plc to right an earlier wrong and to make them aware of and to prevent the further spread of corruption within their midst.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Completely agree, its easy to lose sight of the fact that many people in the UK (and worldwide still less) know nothing about Phorm... Its not their fault. The press, politicians, regulators, and British Telecom have done virtually nothing to exhibit and expose this scandal.

I guess many shareholders will not know what is going on, and need to be treated with firm gentility.

Directors on the other hand will be well aware by now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could someone who has a login please post the information about the Barbican Protest on the BT Webwise discussion thread on the BT Forums?

You can just copy and paste the below (from nodpi) verbatim:

-----------------

July 16th - Anti-Phorm Protest at the BT AGM, Barbican Centre, London
Events
July 16th - Protest at the BT AGM, Barbican Centre, London

On July 16th 2008 there will be a protest rally at The Barbican Centre
(The Barbican Theatre) in London. The purpose of the event is to
protest against plans by BT Group PLC, Virgin Media and Car Phone
Warehouse to deploy intrusive technology across their broadband
networks for the purpose of profiling the behaviour of their customers
which is then sold to Phorm Inc. (formerly 121Media) and used for
their Open Internet Exchange (OIX) service.

You can read updates regarding the event on the following web page:

https://nodpi.org/category/events/
How it works?

Phorm Inc have signed exclusive contracts with Virgin Media, BT Group
PLC and Car Phone Warehouse (TalkTalk) to install Layer 7 network
switches within the core broadband networks in the UK. Without
getting too technical the system (branded as WebWise) intercepts every
single web based communication you initiate in your browser unless
they are encrypted - which most are not.

It then inserts software cookies on to your computer for the purpose
of gathering behavioural statistics based on the web pages you view;
it also makes a copy of every web page you view as it is being sent to
your PC and builds a list of key words based on the contents of the
web page.

This type of behavioural profiling is very rich data and can be used
to determine many things about your life and who you are such as:

1. Topics you are interested in
2. Your Political Opinions
3. Your Health
4. Your Financial Status
5. Your Sexual Preferences
6. Where you live
7. When you are or are not at home
8. Your Investments
9. Who you communicate with
10. What you type on web forums or social network sites

This type of information is very useful for advertising companies as
it allows them to target you with commercial advertising when you
visit web pages. However this type of information is also protected
by many laws within the UK and EU because it is classed as personal
information which most people believe should be private. For example,
do you really want advertising companies to know what investments you
have or the contents of your emails?

You can read more about the issues surrounding this technology by
reading the other pages on this web site and following some of the
links in the right hand margin.
Event Details

Date : 16th July 2008

Time : 10:00am - 5:00pm

Place: Barbican Centre, Silk Street, London. EC2Y 8DS

Directions

Directions to the Barbican

https://nodpi.org/events/

We will be gathering outside the main entrance for the majority of the
day. The best route to the main entrance is from the barbican tube,
but go right to the end of Beech street and turn right as per the map.
Purpose

The purpose of the protest is twofold:

1. To raise public awareness on the issues surrounding behavioural
advertising and threats it places on privacy.
2. To present the City of London Police with a case file based on
covert trials carried out by BT and Phorm (then 121Media) in
2006/2007.

The Covert Trials

In 2006 and 2007 Bt and Phorm (then 121Media) carried out two covert
trials of this technology (called PageSense in 2006, ProxySense in
2007 and WebWise in the present) which means they did not seek the
consent of their customers. These trials constituted criminal and
civil offenses under various laws. You can read more information
about this on the following web page:

https://nodpi.org/2008/06/04/bt-cove...he-facts-about...

And for the legally minded, you can read my legal analysis of the
covert trials here (PDF):

https://nodpi.org/documents/phorm_paper.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done :) Also posting it on ISpreview to remind people there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done - 11.25pm
but I had to fix the link about the covert trials as it was abbreviated and broken.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As promised, I've written a script which generates DPA Section 11 ('No Marketing') Notices for BT/Virgin Media/TalkTalk.

A Data Protection Act Section 11 Notice instructs your ISP not to use your communication data for personal marketing.

Simply select your ISP, enter your account number, name, address, click submit... and bingo, a DPA section 11 notice to print and post. The text is derived from the ICO suggested wording for DPA section 11 notices.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/dpa_notices/

All you need is an envelope and a stamp.

On a related note, don't forget you can also generate a letter to your MP using this script;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/letters/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - it is important to remember that BT is very fragmented nowadays and the shareholders will generally not have a clue. BT plc is a very big company and it has a worldwide reach - the BT Retail ISP is not a very big cheese in comparison wih BT Global.

You can certainly TRY and get questions asked - even unsuccessful attempts can be newsworthy - the press will pick up on any controversy inside the meeting even if it seems to get nowhere, and will make the link with the protest outside.

It's a question of trying to think - what will make the press interested but not damage your reputation or allow BT to portray the anti-Phorm campaign as loony?

Let's face it - the BT directors aren't going to be interested except in not wanting bad publicity. So its the publicity that counts. Even a failed question followed by a minor disturbance from the floor will attract attention. If someone is bounced out, for disturbing the meeting it might be best if others kept quiet and then made their own attempt at a question a bit later - then they could be bounced out separately - twice as much interest. Inside the meeting I would imagine T shirts should be kept covered up until you are IN or perhaps on the way out again - otherwise you could find yourself corralled or hustled out immediately. think in terms of the Labour party conference where that old concentration camp veteran got hustled out by the bouncers for asking an awkward question. It is likely to happen but you can turn it to your advantage.

Try very hard to make sure that YOU are not unreasonable or violent or disreputable. Let the BT people come across as unreasonable.

Even a series of refusals for questions from the chair will sound unreasonable and embarrassing if timed carefully and spaced through the meeting.

Expect chairman to use tactics - he has control of the agenda and timing so expect to be controlled, gagged, and ambushed by procedural devices. Don't use all your assets at once.

Best of luck you guys. work commitments prevent me from getting to London on the day but I will be there in spirit.

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

Whoops Florence - bumped into you over on BT Beta - we were both posting at the same time. Never mind, twice the value for money now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought it was an echo :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone else find it a bit odd that so many of the recent pages of this post are referring to a protest about BT, and yet this thread started about Virgin Media :confused:

And yes, I know that BT are the only ones who've actually implemented the technology, I know that if they do get away with it, others like Virgin Media could follow suit. I'm just getting the impression that this thread has somewhat derailed from it's original purpose. Indeed I suspect the vast majority of potential readers, who are not that in depth knowledgeable about IT (bear in mind this site has always been intended as a help site), will now steer a wide berth and miss the point completely as to why Phorm and Virgin Media would be bad news.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd say its a question of priorities at present.

Virgin have been very silent about Webwise of late, there isn't much to debate until they take action.

BT on the other hand have exposed themselves, and how.

So in a sense, yes at present there isn't much to say about Virgin. But you can be certain if BT get away with this, Virgin will attempt the same.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can someone supply time, date and place info for the Virgin Media AGM?

If the BT protest does not assist in stopping the use of DPI systems for behavioural targeted advertising by the other ISPs, the protests are due to spread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Virgin are a Delaware corporation... perhaps the AGM is in the USA?

Investor information is here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

By looking at the time stamps of when posts are made, many of you are night owls, or up very late. Have any of you tried to get onto one of the talkback radio shows at night. I have tried but because I get up early after 30minutes on the phone on hold and starting to fall asleep I had to hang up. There are many hosts and listners that would have a right go about this and could lead to more publicity. Just a thought.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If 6 or more people who know what they are talking about coordinated this, it could be a goer. What concerns me is that one lone voice talking sense may then be drowned out by a dozen ignorant responses who turn the whole thing into a freak show of light entertainment.

[Are there interesting talkback shows late at night? - I am strictly BBC World Service in the evenings - Radio 5 leaves me cold]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think it is inevitable. If the thread stuck exclusively with Virgin Media - where would it go and what would it talk about? How long would it last? VM have done nothing, and the retraction/retrenchment that they have made has, I think been due to the deep doo doo that BT have got themselves into, and that VM have quite cannily, exploited to their commercial advantage.

It's very difficult to protest effectively about something an ISP are vaguely maybe thinking of exploring, perhaps, in the future. And which they remain almost totally silent about.

But with yhe BT angle, the anti-DPI protest has a gift which is almost too good to be true.

A large, high profile international comms company using it's UK ISP arm to conduct covert illegal trials - not just once but twice - and then threatening to conduct more trials, but getting caught out constantly about exactly when so they get delayed four months in a row...
Incompetent management unable to effectively implement the technology without it falling over and leaving fingerprints all over the internet and media.
Useless communication within the company and crass ineffectiveness in the communication between the company and their customers -- so that customers get lied to, misled and generally abused to the extent that civil action becomes a relatively simple evidential process.
Total lack of due diligence so that every legal pothole gets stumbled into - DPA, RIPA, PECR, CMA and regulators get flooded with complaints and issue statement after statement.
Total failure of the company to carry their staff with them so that significant documents get leaked.
Natural corporate tendency to lie, (arrogance exceeds prudence) so that contradictions can be easily exposed.
Public statements by the company that don't really NEED deconstruction because they are so obviously incompetent and evasive.

I think with a company like that taking the lead role in implementing Phorm's seedy snoop technology, it is not surprising that anti-DPI protests tend to contain a lot of focus on BT. Without BT there would simply be nothing of much public interest to talk about - the discussion would be all about Richard Clayton's technical report on what "might" happen and it would be almost impossible to get public and press interest.

No - you should get on your knees each night and thank God for BT and Emma Sanderson. They've done more for the anti-Phorm cause, than even Alex!!! Take all the BT related stuff out of this thread and there isn't much left. It's about BT because BT are not just an ISP, they run the major part of the network, and they are the inevitable "test bed" for the technology. And they were stupid enough or greedy enough to fall for the Phorm bait, while Virgin Media were canny enough to keep their cable pure and unsullied and wait on the side lines to see how things turned out, and which side to back, making sure they only backed the winner after the race was over. If Phorm fails, Virgin haven't done too badly, if it succeeds, they can join the bandwagon.

That's just my opinion as a BT customer. And a very very big thank you to you people here - you've been brilliant.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=Rob;34599312]Anyone else find it a bit odd that so many of the recent pages of this post are referring to a protest about BT, and yet this thread started about Virgin Media :confused:

I'm still keeping a close eye on anything that might be happening On Virgin Media connections (via a friend).

I think we are just concentrating on the logic path needed to achieve the best result for both Virgin Media & BT Customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To Our Stockholders:
The annual meeting of stockholders of Virgin Media Inc. will be held at 10.15 a.m., local time, on
Wednesday, May 21, 2008, at the offices of Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP at 375 Park
Avenue, New York, New York 10152, 36th Floor, for the following purposes:

Looks like it already happened, and it is in the USA. ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Virgin Media must still have a definite interest in implementing Webwise - why else would they allow Phorm to still have the following on their website?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thread reopned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Russ.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All you need to know is this thread will now stay open. This site always has been and always will be independant. If people choose the dispute that then that's unfortunate but I'm not going out of my way to prove anything.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How are we non-independent, it wasn't closed because VM/BT/Aliens told us too, it was closed because it was getting out of hand, now if you want it to remain open, keep on topic please?

Thanks :)