Cable Forum
Page 113 of 143 « First 1363103109110111112 113 114115116117123 Last »
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)
-   Virgin Media Internet Service (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

Kymmy 06-07-2008 18:25
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alt3rn1ty (Post 34593317)
:) Good to hear Tarka, and if anyone posing as a supporter tries stirring trouble/being confrontational I suggest everyone immediately distance yourself from that person
Even better to use the REPORT POST button and alert the moderators ;)

Kymmy

popper 06-07-2008 18:32
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34593273)
Hang on a minute. We shouldn't set ourselves up in opposition to people, it is the concept of privacy invasion we object to, not the shareholders of anything. And despite the legality of being free to photograph what one pleases, it is something that many would not welcome and that should be respected. Look, months of hard work have gone into this campaign and we don't want the demo to degenerate into a 'them versus us' confrontation. The demo is our public face. There are even BT shareholders amongst us.

The demo has to be orderly with the aim of attracting more support not making ordinary people feel uncomfortable. Being irresistibly reasonable (and right!) are much better tactics than a war of attrition which is why the debate here has attracted interest at the highest level.
TBO, im not sure were this is coming from, the whole point of any video and audio interviewing is to help inform and educate people to the real dangers that customer DPI for profit bring.

theres no intention to make anyone uncomfortable, if they dont want to participate , they are free to go about their business uneffected, it not a problem, Pete mentioned some valid and good points, and its now clear there are no real problems in public space and thats fine.

any action thats unreasonable will OC be discuraged as not a good thing, the whole idea is to inform and collect our own user generated realtime content to be used in helping the wider populas that cant be there on the day, and those that do not know about any of this as yet.

video and audio sound bites if you will, as not everyone takes to reading messageboard text, but will watch short information video and audio clips when placed in front of them, the TV generation is long, as is their average habits, so thats why i beleave it's in our longer term interest to make it, if your able.

there are still masses of people that once they see these potentially many user created interview clips, will also fall on this side, that is the only side im refering to, Pro or Anti DPI for profit, at ordinary users cost in every part of the UK (in this case), and beyond.

alt3rn1ty 06-07-2008 18:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 34593321)
Even better to use the REPORT POST button and alert the moderators ;)

Kymmy
LOL I thought we were talking about the actual demo "quick hit the report butto..... oh godz wheres my laptop". Silly me

jelv 06-07-2008 18:57
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
This really has turned in to a jumbo topic! (sorry - someone had to say it)

I suspect that Phorm had hoped that the protests would be drying up by now, not still gathering pace after this number of pages.

The one thing that concerns me is what Phorm/BT are planning the counter the protest.

warescouse 06-07-2008 19:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
To be honest Phorm/BT can do what they like. It does not concern me at all. If they (BT/Phorm) want to bring a bit more publicity to the occasion it would be very nice although I doubt that they will. In my opinion, it's more an educational/publicity demo, not a protest against the AGM. I imagine the location was picked to maximise publicity seeing the strong involvement of BT management in the current Phorm/Webwise issue.

Wildie 06-07-2008 19:11
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jelv (Post 34593341)
This really has turned in to a jumbo topic! (sorry - someone had to say it)

I suspect that Phorm had hoped that the protests would be drying up by now, not still gathering pace after this number of pages.

The one thing that concerns me is what Phorm/BT are planning the counter the protest.
one can hope the full truth and not more spin and lies.

bluecar1 06-07-2008 20:02
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34593273)
Hang on a minute. We shouldn't set ourselves up in opposition to people, it is the concept of privacy invasion we object to, not the shareholders of anything. And despite the legality of being free to photograph what one pleases, it is something that many would not welcome and that should be respected. Look, months of hard work have gone into this campaign and we don't want the demo to degenerate into a 'them versus us' confrontation. The demo is our public face. There are even BT shareholders amongst us.

The demo has to be orderly with the aim of attracting more support not making ordinary people feel uncomfortable. Being irresistibly reasonable (and right!) are much better tactics than a war of attrition which is why the debate here has attracted interest at the highest level.
yep i agree, find a small alcove or corner of the building where people can't get behind the subject, and have some basic forms requesting permission and informing the person where the video or photo will be publish, with a tear off at the bottom for the person to take away with a copy of the above details and a thankyou at the end and an option to email alex etc if they change their mind

peter

kagemusha 06-07-2008 21:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Ah well, I wasn't suggesting confrontation or heavy tactics - even though it seems to have come across that way. As the article suggests, shoving lenses in peoples faces is not the way to go about things.

It is possible to be quite busy with a camera without looking mean or intimidating. Some one is bound to try and push you around, after all you are demoing a global corporation's AGM, there's always some idiot in a uniform and a clipboard at these kind of events - making them aware of you knowing your rights can often head off any unpleasantness.

Have a good day everyone - wish I was coming but unfortunately won't be able to make it.

Wildie 06-07-2008 21:57
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
think the only pictures to be taken will be of the protesters not the public or them at the agm inside who getting their wires crossed here.

Kursk 06-07-2008 23:31
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34593439)
think the only pictures to be taken will be of the protesters not the public or them at the agm inside who getting their wires crossed here.
Yep, you're right Wildie, wires got crossed. Ah well, all sorted so no biggie ;)
(@popper - wrong end of stick mate but I can see how it happened)

tdadyslexia 07-07-2008 05:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Hi All

Well I have done it again, just put up Anti-Phorm Video #4 the new video is Here enjoy. :D

Anti-Phorm Video #3 is Here

Anti-Phorm Video #2 is Here

Kent Down The Pan is Here

bluecar1 07-07-2008 07:47
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
been trying to find a simple way to expose the amount of data phorm / webwise will see in an easy to digest way to explain to others just how exposed they will be,

just come to me as they keep on about the googlebot entry


"if you can google it, phorm will profile it"

might be good for a protest banner

and everybody knows just how much info google can see

peter

warescouse 07-07-2008 08:04
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593573)
been trying to find a simple way to expose the amount of data phorm / webwise will see in an easy to digest way to explain to others just how exposed they will be,

just come to me as they keep on about the googlebot entry


"if you can google it, phorm will profile it"

might be good for a protest banner

and everybody knows just how much info google can see

peter
Good banner, but what about the private password protected web pages that Google honours to not show but Phorm will still profile?

tarka 07-07-2008 08:07
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
is it worth highlighting that they can see more than google can? I know it's been said before but anything like your user profile on some websites, subscription sites etc that don't use https phorm will see and profile where google has no possible way of seeing that information.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 08:12
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarka (Post 34593576)
is it worth highlighting that they can see more than google can? I know it's been said before but anything like your user profile on some websites, subscription sites etc that don't use https phorm will see and profile where google has no possible way of seeing that information.
we have to stick to facts and at the moment we do not have proof of what we suspect to be the case,

and phorm have said they will not profile pages requiring passwords etc to access or data in form fields on pages (i know we all trust phorm as far as we can phrow them)

this is another case of where they will not explain how they will achieve this to allow webmasters to block profiling effectively from private areas unless they block google and all other search engines

but an intersting case is this forum

google can index it, but it is password protected to post, do phorm profile it or not?

my bet is yes, and in profiling they will get my profile name on here "bluecar1" , my location as "kent" and i am a BT customer as it appears in the code and not in a form entry field, which is the other thing we have to trust them not to process

peter

tarka 07-07-2008 08:25
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Did they not say that it was pages protected with HTTP authentication that they would not profile? I can't remember for sure but I will do some digging.

warescouse 07-07-2008 08:31
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593581)
we have to stick to facts and at the moment we do not have proof of what we suspect to be the case,

and phorm have said they will not profile pages requiring passwords etc to access or data in form fields on pages (i know we all trust phorm as far as we can phrow them)

this is another case of where they will not explain how they will achieve this to allow webmasters to block profiling effectively from private areas unless they block google and all other search engines

but an intersting case is this forum

google can index it, but it is password protected to post, do phorm profile it or not?

my bet is yes, and in profiling they will get my profile name on here "bluecar1" , my location as "kent" and i am a BT customer as it appears in the code and not in a form entry field, which is the other thing we have to trust them not to process

peter
I cannot see how Phorm could confidently say that they would not profile 100% of all password protected HTTP webpages. Some password protected pages I could possibly access because I still have an unexpired cookie on my PC from my last visit. Is phorm now going to read and decipher all 3rd party cookies as well before they make a decision whether to profile?

Even if Phorm/Webwise had in place a system to attempt to avoid P/W protected pages, I cannot see how it would be foolproof. Is, perhaps, 95% privacy good enough because it could not be not foolproof?
Privacy is Privacy and privacy should be 100%.

vicz 07-07-2008 08:44
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Phorm takes the view that if it is open to google it is open to them. But who knows what they will do? They will do what they like then destroy the evidence so no-one can prove or disprove anything. They can do this because BT are happy to sell your information to a proven bunch of crooks.

Peter N 07-07-2008 08:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
It's one of the annoyances with Phorm that we have to interpret their spin before we can investigate the reality.

It's been a nightmare for us at BT forum because the only answers we ever had from BT themselves have been re-hashed Phorm statements - they either don't know the facts well enough to answe questions or they simply aren't willing to reply.

Many sites - especially those requiring membership and which have privacy policies that apply to members - have a HTTPS: log-in page but the site itself is plain HTTP: It is these sites that will most likely have the most personal information without having what Phorm regard as PII.

This leaves Phorm's list of non-profiled subjects up for scutiny as it is unclear what they include or exclude in those catagories. Take "medical" as an example - do they only exclude "medical" information that relates to the customer as many people will visit sites for information relating o other peoples conditions including that of their family and friends. Is pregnancy or abortion a "medical" subject? Ditto suicide or depression.

How will Webwise distinguish between a search for "depression" relating to economics and "depression" as a medical condition?

There are far to many examples to list but the lack of answers and clarity on these basic issues makes me furious especially as the ICO and other official bodies have accepted Phorm's privacy claims without actually bothering to question their validity or viability.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 09:00
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593594)
Snip
This leaves Phorm's list of non-profiled subjects up for scutiny as it is unclear what they include or exclude in those catagories. Take "medical" as an example - do they only exclude "medical" information that relates to the customer as many people will visit sites for information relating o other peoples conditions including that of their family and friends. Is pregnancy or abortion a "medical" subject? Ditto suicide or depression.

How will Webwise distinguish between a search for "depression" relating to economics and "depression" as a medical condition?

There are far to many examples to list but the lack of answers and clarity on these basic issues makes me furious especially as the ICO and other official bodies have accepted Phorm's privacy claims without actually bothering to question their validity or viability.
yep,

far more information or in phorm speak "transparancy" (but transparancy in the true meaning of the word)

so we can get a better idea of exactly what information wil be profiled and the sources it is gather from

PEOPLE need a way of once the system is live of seeing what is contained in "THEIR" profile, but i think if people could see the vast array and amount of information stored they would opt out like a turkey would opt-out of xmas and phorm would be dead in the water , so thats not going to happen

peter

Peter N 07-07-2008 09:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
It should be "too late" rather than "to late" ;)

tarka 07-07-2008 09:39
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I've found it... in Richard Claytons document there is the following snippet...

"Sites that use \basic auth" (RFC 1945 et seq.) will be ignored, viz: sites where the browser
remembers a user name and password and supplies it with each request to avoid the need
to log in again."

So any website that does not use HTTP basic auth (which lets face it, is pretty much all websites these days) will have password protected content profiled anyway.

madslug 07-07-2008 09:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593290)
I can't speak for that implementation but (in the event they ever manage to go live) widespread fuzzing of Phorms data would reduce it's potential value to advertisers. Generally I'd see that as a good thing.
The whole issue of 'fuzzing of Phorms data' has been discussed at length at badphorm. It has no more effect than fuzzing what Google, DoubleClick or any of the non-search engine tracking scripts have on you.

antiphorm does nothing to protect your privacy and does nothing to stop Phorm from tracking you wherever you go. It will not affect Phrom's bottom line because they will still be targeting you for those few pages covering subjects that you really visited.

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia (Post 34593562)
Well I have done it again, just put up Anti-Phorm Video #4 the new video is Here enjoy. :D
I like the #4 - quite genteel compared with the rest. :) I find the yellow text difficult to read - maybe even lighter??
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia (Post 34593562)
Anti-Phorm Video #3 is Here
In this video, you have a 'My' where it should be a 'By' - help stop phorm my signing the petition.

Peter N 07-07-2008 10:04
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Evil being tries to take over the Universe...
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...8/07/3.jpg?v=0

madslug 07-07-2008 10:20
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593573)
snip
"if you can google it, phorm will profile it"
How about - Google knows 10 billion pages. In 14 days Phorm knew 100% of the pages viewed by 18,000 people like you and me

Short form = Phorm 100%, Google only 10 billion

Peter N 07-07-2008 10:33
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
My favourite quotes from Phorm

“As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions. We actually can see the entire Internet.” - Virasb Vahidi, the chief operating officer of Phorm.

"If the Phorm models works for driving targeted and behavioural advertising on the internet, then it is perfectly possible that you can do the same for content." - Hugo Drayton, Chief Executive Officer of Phorm.

With quotes like these - who needs slogans.

Florence 07-07-2008 10:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Today in elreg I know it isn't phorm but it is about data protection or more the lack of it... A good read and the last bit was good quote. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...ction_changes/
"The protection of privacy is not a priority particularly in the public sector and central government. It is the first thing to go when costs are cut." Deputy Information Commissioner David Smith
He also said
"Who is going to lose their job if there is a serious breach in your organisation? If you still can't answer that question then you still have a problem to solve."

Fits in nicely with Phorm since it is like a cost cutting exercise only difference is BT are cutting costs to them by selling you out.... The last one if it all goes wrong who will llose the job Ian or Emma?

Peter N 07-07-2008 10:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593659)
...who will llose the job Ian or Emma?
...and everyone at Phorm :cleader::cleader::cleader:

Rchivist 07-07-2008 11:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I've just sent in a couple of spoilers to BT

First - a reminder that their BT Retail legal department never replied to my 16th May letter about the legal aspects of Phorm/Webwise - I have suggested they will have less paperwork replying direct to me than having to do all the paperwork for a formal regulator enquiry which will get triggered in 14 days if I don't hear from them.

Secondly - a formal data protection request to BT to ask them what PII of mine they have passed to Phorm, via their insecure www.bt.com cookies and the BT Webwise contact page (I have hard evidence this end that they ran insecure cookies in one case (which were then available to Phorm via BT Webwise site when Phorm were running it), and actually passed on in another case, my PII directly to Phorm). Their answer will be published here, and sent to the ICO along with my own evidence (Dephormation logs and a BT Webwise Contact page email reply with header evidence that it came via Phorm). worth every penny of the statutory £10.

I'm still waiting on an ICO acknowledgement to a fairly lengthy snail mail complaint, so hopefully that will result in BT having to do a lot more paperwork in communication with the ICO. I really like the fact that for the cost of a second class stamp I can cost these corporations a lot of money and time in correspondence with regulators.

Peter N 07-07-2008 11:21
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Well done Robert.

A nice point is that they will have to acknowledge your previous contact with them in the DPA report so you also have evidence if they have deliberately ignored any of your correspondence. It will be interesting to see what sort of notes on your personal records especially with regards to Emma S's comments about making no further replies.

For anyone who doesn't know, there are time limits that apply to DPA requests and they start from when they receive the request and the payment (where required). There are penalties for anyone failing to meet these deadlines even if there was no breach of the DPA in any other area.

isf 07-07-2008 11:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madslug (Post 34593632)
The whole issue of 'fuzzing of Phorms data' has been discussed at length at badphorm. It has no more effect than fuzzing what Google, DoubleClick or any of the non-search engine tracking scripts have on you.
The value in connecting an advertiser with their target market is accuracy. When there's a sizable percentage of sites detecting phorm and sending them unrelated keywords it undermines their entire business model.

Quote:
antiphorm does nothing to protect your privacy and does nothing to stop Phorm from tracking you wherever you go.
I thought I'd made it clear I wasn't talking about that specific piece of software? In fact, I didn't have a client side solution in mind at all.
Quote:
It will not affect Phrom's bottom line because they will still be targeting you for those few pages covering subjects that you really visited.
If fuzzing were widespread, it would impact their bottom line because they could no longer deliver the relevance advertisers would be paying them for.

Wildie 07-07-2008 11:51
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
would fuzzing of inputting key words like sex medical health lots of em stop the ad`s ?
and would a list of all the web sites that the ad`s want you to goto be handy to add to ones host file, so blacklisting the very sites the ads want you to visit, ok you still get phormed but by blacklisting the ones who paid for the ad would that not hurt the model as well?

bluecar1 07-07-2008 11:53
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34593700)
would fuzzing of inputting key words like sex medical health lots of em stop the ad`s ?
and would a list of all the web sites that the ad`s want you to goto be handy to add to ones host file, so blacklisting the very sites the ads want you to visit, ok you still get phormed but by blacklisting the ones who paid for the ad would that not hurt the model as well?
one of the important things we do not know is are the adverts server by the adserver or does the profiler insert a link to an external website for you to pull the advert

if it is external, we can block them, if they come from the profiler we can't

peter

Florence 07-07-2008 11:59
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34593700)
would fuzzing of inputting key words like sex medical health lots of em stop the ad`s ?
and would a list of all the web sites that the ad`s want you to goto be handy to add to ones host file, so blacklisting the very sites the ads want you to visit, ok you still get phormed but by blacklisting the ones who paid for the ad would that not hurt the model as well?
Yes it would I have told places online where I shop if I see them partnered with phorm regardless of if my ISP uses phorm or not I would boycot them on principle of how phorm works and the disgust I feel for them stalking people over the internet.

Wildie 07-07-2008 12:02
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
ok but the advert has to point to some web site they want you to visit has it not? unless its redirected cos its hashed in the serving server, either way the end result has to be a web site they want you to visit and that`s the one needs to be blacklisted.

Tharrick 07-07-2008 12:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
For everyone at the protests:

http://www.urban75.org/legal/section44.html

This might be a good read.

isf 07-07-2008 12:12
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34593700)
would fuzzing of inputting key words like sex medical health lots of em stop the ad`s ?
If I follow you, it might make them stop profiling a page.
Quote:
and would a list of all the web sites that the ad`s want you to goto be handy to add to ones host file, so blacklisting the very sites the ads want you to visit, ok you still get phormed but by blacklisting the ones who paid for the ad would that not hurt the model as well?
Anything that negatively impacts the clickthrough rate for OIX ads reduces the appeal of OIX to advertisers. Done on a massive scale, Phorm would be left advertising scam gambling and malware sites.

Quote:
ok but the advert has to point to some web site they want you to visit has it not?
Usually this is via redirects through the ad networks servers. Blocking the ad network blocks the clickthroughs, boycotting the advertiser is something else entirely.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 12:12
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
just got these gems via email, a bit OT but we need a break

thought they so apply to Phorm and BT so thought i would share them with you to lighten the day (and fuzz up phorms filters a bit in the future)

peter

Lesson 1:

A man is getting into the shower just as his wife is finishing up her shower, when the doorbell rings.

The wife quickly wraps herself in a towel and runs downstairs.

When she opens the door, there stands Bob, the next-door neighbour.

Before she says a word, Bob says, 'I'll give you £800 to drop that towel.'

After thinking for a moment, the woman drops her towel and stands naked in front of Bob, after a few seconds, Bob hands her £800 and leaves.

The woman wraps back up in the towel and goes back upstairs.

When she gets to the bathroom, her husband asks, 'Who was that?'

'It was Bob the next door neighbour,' she replies.

'Great,' the husband says, 'did he say anything about the £800 he owes me?'

Moral of the story:

If you share critical information pertaining to credit and risk with your shareholders in time, you may be in a position to prevent avoidable exposure.



Lesson 2

An eagle was sitting on a tree resting, doing nothing.

A small rabbit saw the eagle and asked him, 'Can I also sit like you and do nothing?'
The eagle answered: 'Sure, why not.'

So, the rabbit sat on the ground below the eagle and rested. All of a sudden, a fox appeared, jumped on the rabbit and ate it.

Moral of the story:
To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting very, very high up.


Lesson 3

A turkey was chatting with a bull.

'I would love to be able to get to the top of that tree' sighed the turkey, 'but I haven't got the energy.'
'Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?' replied the bull. They're packed with nutrients.'

The turkey pecked at a lump of dung, and found it actually gave him enough strength to reach the lowest branch of the tree.

The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch.

Finally after a fourth night, the turkey was proudly perched at the top of the tree.

He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out of the tree.


Moral of the story:
BS might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there..

Lesson 4

A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground into a large field.

While he was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on him.

As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, he began to realize how warm he was.

The dung was actually thawing him out!

He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.
A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate.

Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him.


Morals of the story:
(1) Not everyone who ***** on you is your enemy.

(2) Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your
friend.

(3) And when you're in deep doo doo, it's best to keep
your mouth shut!


THUS ENDS THE three MINUTE MANAGEMENT COURSE

pseudonym 07-07-2008 12:16
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593686)
The value in connecting an advertiser with their target market is accuracy. When there's a sizable percentage of sites detecting phorm and sending them unrelated keywords it undermines their entire business model.

I thought I'd made it clear I wasn't talking about that specific piece of software? In fact, I didn't have a client side solution in mind at all.
If fuzzing were widespread, it would impact their bottom line because they could no longer deliver the relevance advertisers would be paying them for.

One method of messing with Phorm's data that I think has a great deal of potential would be for a server side Phorm webwise UID exchange system.

If websites replaced the UID in the webwise cookie Phorm forges for their domain with one donated by another site with totally unrelated content and dontated your UID into a pool, your browsing of the site would polute someone else's profile, and similarily your profile would be poluted by other people's browsing and the website would benefit as Phorm adverts targeted on their content would be severed up to people who had never visited their site :cool:

bluecar1 07-07-2008 12:20
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34593721)
One method of messing with Phorm's data that I think has a great deal of potential would be for a server side Phorm webwise UID exchange system.

If websites replaced the UID in the webwise cookie Phorm forges for their domain with one donated by another site with totally unrelated content and dontated your UID into a pool, your browsing of the site would polute someone else's profile, and similarily your profile would be poluted by other people's browsing and the website would benefit as Phorm adverts targeted on their content would be severed up to people who had never visit their site :cool:
web wise's cookie handling is supposed to strip out the UID before passing the cookie to the website

so a server side swap of uid etc would not help

peter

Deko 07-07-2008 12:22
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Ah But, the Cookie will not be removed on HTTPS on non standard ports methinks.

pseudonym 07-07-2008 12:23
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593727)
web wise's cookie handling is supposed to strip out the UID before passing the cookie to the website

so a server side swap of uid etc would not help

peter
They WILL leak if a site uses https: for any of its content, they are also expected to leak if a site uses a port other than 80, because Phorm have stated that they only process traffic on port 80.

They MAY also be accessible using client side javascript.

Peter N 07-07-2008 12:26
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34593711)
ok but the advert has to point to some web site they want you to visit has it not? unless its redirected cos its hashed in the serving server, either way the end result has to be a web site they want you to visit and that`s the one needs to be blacklisted.
Not necessarily. You may look for information that suggests that you are buying a new car. The adverts targetted at you may be for a particular manufacturer such as Ford and there's no real need to visit Ford's own website.

Where it gets down and dirty is that Phorm only regard your actual address as PII so they are free to keep note of your location in other wats. This means that you could get an advert for your local Ford main agent instead of Ford Motor Company.

It depends entirely on how far the no PII statement is valid. At the most basic level, Phorm already know that you are in the UK because of the ISP's they are dealing with and that narrows the whole game down to 1% of the World's population before they even start. Factor in the other information that can be assumed from your search - car buyers are over 17 - are you searching for a people carrier which would indicate a family etc etc.

The simple act of looking for a new car says so much about you that coupled with similar amounts of between-the-lines analysis of other searches would make it very simple to identify you.

Just how close can Phorm get before it becomes "personally identifiable" in a legal sense especially when they are have access to multiple sets of data even though each data is anonymous in it's own right?

The answer is that even under the ICO guidelines Webwise will have more than enough information to be able to identify you within your first few hours on-line and there's no way around that other than to ban these systems before they can be used even for a few minutes.

Dephormation 07-07-2008 12:33
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34593732)
They WILL leak if a site uses https: for any of its content, they are also expected to leak if a site uses a port other than 80, because Phorm have stated that they only process traffic on port 80.

They MAY also be collectable using client side javascript.
And you can rewrite the cookie client side too, recoding or encrypting them, to make certain the UID leaks whatever filtering they claim. :)

Check the Dephormation site for sample code. Its a doddle to capture User Identifiers. SSL, non standard ports, non Phorm ISPs, cookie rewriting... all will cause User Identifiers to leak.

Its a shame the ICO didn't consult external web development expertise.. It might have saved them some avoidable and profound embarrasment.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 12:36
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34593732)
They WILL leak if a site uses https: for any of its content, they are also expected to leak if a site uses a port other than 80, because Phorm have stated that they only process traffic on port 80.

They MAY also be accessible using client side javascript.
fair comment, had not thought about the fact if a user had visited the website on a normal http connection then gone to the same websites on a https conection they should be able to see the cookie complete with UID

now thye other question to that is , is that going to break any websites?

also it is a method of extracting UID's for an attack

Peter

JohnHorb 07-07-2008 12:39
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34593732)
They WILL leak if a site uses https: for any of its content, they are also expected to leak if a site uses a port other than 80, because Phorm have stated that they only process traffic on port 80.

They MAY also be accessible using client side javascript.
Presumably, they will also leak if you have a laptop and regularly log in via different ISPs (some Phormed, some not).

bluecar1 07-07-2008 12:43
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHorb (Post 34593748)
Presumably, they will also leak if you have a laptop and regularly log in via different ISPs (some Phormed, some not).
don't forget they are also working on a cookieless optout, could the delay be the fact they have dropped the cookie based opt-out due to to many issues(and poss legal probs) and trying to get the cookieless opt-out to work

just a thought

peter

isf 07-07-2008 12:47
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593751)
don't forget they are also working on a cookieless optout, could the delay be the fact they have dropped the cookie based opt-out due to to many issues(and poss legal probs) and trying to get the cookieless opt-out to work
I thought the HO were clear the system was to be opt in? Still, is this going to be a true network level opt-out, without unlawful interception at the profiler?

Peter N 07-07-2008 12:56
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593751)
don't forget they are also working on a cookieless optout, could the delay be the fact they have dropped the cookie based opt-out due to to many issues(and poss legal probs) and trying to get the cookieless opt-out to work

just a thought

peter
That should only affect the initial check to see if a Webwise cookie exists and how it is set - in or out. They have to avoid this as it is an offence under the Computer Misuse Act for anyone to install, alter or remove any file - including a cookie - without your knowledge or consent which makes it illegal for BT to even read the opted-out cookie. All of the regular cookies will remain and will contain the extra Webwise data. They will be as vulnerable or as safe as any other cookie on the PC.

I suspect that you are right about the cause of the delay. It remains to be seen how they will implement this cookie-free opt-out check but given their usual incompetence and lack of attention to detail it's a fair bet that it doesn't work and/or is illegal and unsafe.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 13:08
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593761)
That should only affect the initial check to see if a Webwise cookie exists and how it is set - in or out. They have to avoid this as it is an offence under the Computer Misuse Act for anyone to install, alter or remove any file - including a cookie - without your knowledge or consent which makes it illegal for BT to even read the opted-out cookie. All of the regular cookies will remain and will contain the extra Webwise data. They will be as vulnerable or as safe as any other cookie on the PC.

I suspect that you are right about the cause of the delay. It remains to be seen how they will implement this cookie-free opt-out check but given their usual incompetence and lack of attention to detail it's a fair bet that it doesn't work and/or is illegal and unsafe.
the best way is an account level opt-in / out where opted out traffic takes a different rout out to the net bypassing all the phorm kit due to ip subnet (but this requires help from BTW who operate the RAS servers and issue IP's

BUT, what happens if the main account holder opts in, but a subaccount holder doesnot want there traffic going via the profiler even if they are opted out?

no win me thinks for BT

peter

Peter N 07-07-2008 13:08
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I just had a thought.

Does anyone know for certain what the business relationship is between Phorm and BT? Specifically, do BT employ Phorm to make use of their data or do Phorm employ BT to provide the data for their system?

Phorm's statements regarding the "agreements" or "contracts" with the ISPs seems to suggest that it is Phorm who are running the business and that the ISPs are simply providing them with the data.

The reason I am querying this is that BT (and the other ISPs) term and conditions allow for personal information to be shared with "third-parties" and I'm curious as to whether this relationship actually does apply to Phorm.

isf 07-07-2008 13:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34593743)
Its a doddle to capture User Identifiers. SSL, non standard ports, non Phorm ISPs, cookie rewriting... all will cause User Identifiers to leak.
They must be planning to hash it somehow, otherwise we could harvest UIDs and really phuzz the database. Doing this could be classed as a computer misuse offense but Phorm obviously would not have cared about that when they gained unauthorised access to data held on the server doing the UID harvesting.

Florence 07-07-2008 13:34
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593771)
I just had a thought.

Does anyone know for certain what the business relationship is between Phorm and BT? Specifically, do BT employ Phorm to make use of their data or do Phorm employ BT to provide the data for their system?

Phorm's statements regarding the "agreements" or "contracts" with the ISPs seems to suggest that it is Phorm who are running the business and that the ISPs are simply providing them with the data.

The reason I am querying this is that BT (and the other ISPs) term and conditions allow for personal information to be shared with "third-parties" and I'm curious as to whether this relationship actually does apply to Phorm.
When Emma was replying to me she did say Phorm was a partner and covered in the T&C... I did point out a few errors in this but then line of contact dried up as Ian and Emma went on self preservation mode no longer communicating irony they stopped talking... to the people who pay their wages no customers no need for them to be employed.. Well suppose Ian moved to a safe seat as a councillor would say while Emma is in the hot seat MPO.....

---------- Post added at 13:34 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

Todays news on ISPr seems to have the retail side buzzing that sales will increase by 2010 the CEO from http://www.javelingroup.com/ has been talking to retailers.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkEVuFFklVqSMEmAAQ.html

If they are signed into phorm watch the retail online plummet downwards like Phorms shares keep doing..

rryles 07-07-2008 13:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593773)
They must be planning to hash it somehow, otherwise we could harvest UIDs and really phuzz the database. Doing this could be classed as a computer misuse offense but Phorm obviously would not have cared about that when they gained unauthorised access to data held on the server doing the UID harvesting.
Not sure what you mean by "hash it somehow" but I don't think any such techniques will help them.

They need to set a cookie for each domain that uniquely identifies an individual. That same data will be sent if the connection is over https and/or a non-standard port. Therefore that same data that uniquely identifies a user can be read by the web server.

If you take their claim that the only way they can tell users apart is the cookies they forge. Then it follows that if two users swap cookies they won't notice the switch.

Peter N 07-07-2008 14:00
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Section 7 of the Data Protection Act states that...

Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

Thiis is qualifies in Schedule 1 part 2 to mean...

12 Where processing of personal data is carried out by a data processor on behalf of a data controller, the data controller is not to be regarded as complying with the seventh principle unless—

(a) the processing is carried out under a contract—

(i) which is made or evidenced in writing, and

(ii) under which the data processor is to act only on instructions from the data controller, and

(b) the contract requires the data processor to comply with obligations equivalent to those imposed on a data controller by the seventh principle.


We need to know whether or not Phorm has a contract with BT because an "agreement" does not satisfy the DPA. The profiling may be done on BT equipment but the data processing isn't.

The Act also states that the follwing criteria MUST apply...

10 The data controller must take reasonable steps to ensure the reliability of any employees of his who have access to the personal data.

11 Where processing of personal data is carried out by a data processor on behalf of a data controller, the data controller must in order to comply with the seventh principle—

(a) choose a data processor providing sufficient guarantees in respect of the technical and organisational security measures governing the processing to be carried out, and

(b) take reasonable steps to ensure compliance with those measures.

Phorm's background and Russian connections suggest that NT could not in all fiath support these terms and the 2006 trials took place whilst BT was not in contract with 121Media and that company was under investigation by the American FTC who were still trying to locate the company following a trail that dried up in Poland.

Florence 07-07-2008 14:03
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593801)
Section 7 of the Data Protection Act states that...

Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

Thiis is qualifies in Schedule 1 part 2 to mean...

12 Where processing of personal data is carried out by a data processor on behalf of a data controller, the data controller is not to be regarded as complying with the seventh principle unless—

(a) the processing is carried out under a contract—

(i) which is made or evidenced in writing, and

(ii) under which the data processor is to act only on instructions from the data controller, and

(b) the contract requires the data processor to comply with obligations equivalent to those imposed on a data controller by the seventh principle.


We need to know whether or not Phorm has a contract with BT because an "agreement" does not satisfy the DPA. The profiling may be done on BT equipment but the data processing isn't.

The Act also states that the follwing criteria MUST apply...

10 The data controller must take reasonable steps to ensure the reliability of any employees of his who have access to the personal data.

11 Where processing of personal data is carried out by a data processor on behalf of a data controller, the data controller must in order to comply with the seventh principle—

(a) choose a data processor providing sufficient guarantees in respect of the technical and organisational security measures governing the processing to be carried out, and

(b) take reasonable steps to ensure compliance with those measures.

Phorm's background and Russian connections suggest that NT could not in all fiath support these terms and the 2006 trials took place whilst BT was not in contract with 121Media and that company was under investigation by the American FTC who were still trying to locate the company following a trail that dried up in Poland.
Very true they seem to have sliped with their due diligence mind they were blinded with greed and dollar signs.

isf 07-07-2008 14:03
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593796)
Not sure what you mean by "hash it somehow" but I don't think any such techniques will help them.

They need to set a cookie for each domain that uniquely identifies an individual. That same data will be sent if the connection is over https and/or a non-standard port. Therefore that same data that uniquely identifies a user can be read by the web server.

If you take their claim that the only way they can tell users apart is the cookies they forge. Then it follows that if two users swap cookies they won't notice the switch.
I'd compute a hash value for the UID using the client IP as the salt. Webwise is no longer leaking IDs, is IP locked and they still wouldn't be storing any PII. Not that I'm here to solve their problems nor that I have any real confidence in Phorm having any technical competence whatsoever.

rryles 07-07-2008 14:14
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593809)
I'd compute a hash value for the UID using the client IP as the salt. Webwise is no longer leaking IDs, is IP locked and they still wouldn't be storing any PII. Not that I'm here to solve their problems nor that I have any real confidence in Phorm having any technical competence whatsoever.
It might be possible to get something along these line to work, but it isn't easy. A hash on it's own is no protection against forgery. They'd have to use cryptographic signatures. I'd like to see them try and make it IP locked without storing, processing or even possibly coming into possesion of any IP addresses.

If the cookie is locked to your ip then a brute force attack will allow phorm to derive your ip from the cookie. (with IPv4 addresses this brute force attack is fairly trivial)

Peter N 07-07-2008 14:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Surely all of this cookie relates stuff is irrelevant if you opt-out as you will only get the regular cookies with no added data.

rryles 07-07-2008 14:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593837)
Surely all of this cookie relates stuff is irrelevant if you opt-out as you will only get the regular cookies with no added data.
Whilst I'd love to think that everyone would opt out (or rather no-one would opt in) I can't see it happening.

In my last posts replace references to 'you' with 'some misguided fool who opts in'

isf 07-07-2008 14:46
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593820)
It might be possible to get something along these line to work, but it isn't easy. A hash on it's own is no protection against forgery. They'd have to use cryptographic signatures. I'd like to see them try and make it IP locked without storing, processing or even possibly coming into possesion of any IP addresses.
You're correct, they would need the IP. Here's a (rough untested example) of a much simpler version that does leak the ID (if you know how to decode it) but still renders it useless for fuzzing unless you can somehow do an IP takeover.

Code:
<?php

function xor($a, $b){
  $crypted = '';
  foreach ($i = 0, $j = strlen($uid) - 1; $i < $j; $i++){
    $crypted .= $a[$i] ^ $b[$i];
  }
  return $crypted;
}

// Set UID
$value = xor($uid, hash('sha1', $_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR']));
set_cookie('webwise', $value);

// Get UID
$uid = xor($_COOKIE['webwise'], hash('sha1', $_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR']));
Quote:
If the cookie is locked to your ip then a brute force attack will allow phorm to derive your ip from the cookie. (with IPv4 addresses this brute force attack is fairly trivial)
I'd think it'd be easier to match the webwise id to OIX ad server request log files.

---------- Post added at 13:46 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593837)
Surely all of this cookie relates stuff is irrelevant if you opt-out as you will only get the regular cookies with no added data.
If servers can retrieve the Phorm UID, they can get a good idea of your profile by seeing what ads are served. That's a huge privacy risk for everyone who opts-in, not every company is as upstanding and honest (sic) as Phorm.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 14:46
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593809)
I'd compute a hash value for the UID using the client IP as the salt. Webwise is no longer leaking IDs, is IP locked and they still wouldn't be storing any PII. Not that I'm here to solve their problems nor that I have any real confidence in Phorm having any technical competence whatsoever.
only problem with that is BT Retail use dynamic IP's

peter

rryles 07-07-2008 14:56
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593844)
You're correct, they would need the IP. Here's a (rough untested example) of a much simpler version that does leak the ID (if you know how to decode it) but still renders it useless for fuzzing unless you can somehow do an IP takeover.
A webmaster could still swap uid's of two of his visitors by xor ing their cookies with the sha1 of each ip address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593844)
I'd think it'd be easier to match the webwise id to OIX ad server request log files.
Probably would be easier, but neither is difficult. The search space for the brute force attack is < 1e7. If you know the RAS a user is on it is even smaller.

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593848)
only problem with that is BT Retail use dynamic IP's

peter
Not the only problem but certainly is one. :)

Rchivist 07-07-2008 15:15
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593751)
don't forget they are also working on a cookieless optout, could the delay be the fact they have dropped the cookie based opt-out due to to many issues(and poss legal probs) and trying to get the cookieless opt-out to work

just a thought

peter

that's the cookie free solution that requires access to the BT Wholesale equipment so they can sort users according to IP ranges - opted in get one set of IP's and not opted-in, get another IP range. BT Retail can't actually achieve this with the equipment under their control AFAIK. But it is the solution they have SAID officially they are looking for.

Originally it was going to be a cookie based trial, with the promise that they were looking at a cookie free solution for the final rollout (although there seemed little point in trialling a technology then changing it again - they already did that with PageSense when they allegedly broke the law in 2006/7). But the trial has been delayed so long, there is no knowing what they are up to now.

We can be HOPING that it is delayed because of legal fears, and other complications - corporate cold feet etc. - but it could be simply because they have been doing yet another massive retrofit (the sort of retrofit that 80/20 Thinking warned about in their interim PIA as being inevitable when you don't do your privacy planning well in advance). Maybe the trial when it occurs will actually be a cookie free opt-IN, but it will have required co-operation from BTWholesale which AFAIK is not actually allowed by the comms regulator for competitive reasons.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593770)
the best way is an account level opt-in / out where opted out traffic takes a different rout out to the net bypassing all the phorm kit due to ip subnet (but this requires help from BTW who operate the RAS servers and issue IP's

BUT, what happens if the main account holder opts in, but a subaccount holder doesnot want there traffic going via the profiler even if they are opted out?

no win me thinks for BT

peter
That's one of the significant unanswered questions. (Henceforth known as SUQ's) So far BT have avoided that one by simply refusing to take any responsibility for it. Their take so far is that they have one account, and whatever happens with that account or any of the sub accounts, is the responsibility of the account holder. They have NOT answered any questions about the enforceability of a change in T&C's triggered by a minor or any other user of the account/subaccounts, who opts in to Webwise.

When they don't answer a question it means they haven't got an answer. If they had a legal watertight answer, they would give it - anthing to help propr up the share price!!! And then there is usually a further delay in the trial date. So - "keep asking them difficult questions" is my method!

isf 07-07-2008 15:21
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593856)
A webmaster could still swap uid's of two of his visitors by xor ing their cookies with the sha1 of each ip address.
Only so long as we can know the exact mechanism they're using, I was just giving an example :) If they add a "secret" key prior to hashing it's more difficult still. I think Phorms "privacy enhancing" feature of leaking the UID over the entire web is the bigger issue for them to solve -- along with all the other show stoppers.

---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593848)
only problem with that is BT Retail use dynamic IP's

peter
I don't think that matters, it's the uid number that links you to your profile and they'd simply set a valid cookie over the stale one. I'm only giving examples, they could use the hostname of the site so long as we don't know the mechanism (security by obscurity).

Rchivist 07-07-2008 15:22
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34593771)
I just had a thought.

Does anyone know for certain what the business relationship is between Phorm and BT? Specifically, do BT employ Phorm to make use of their data or do Phorm employ BT to provide the data for their system?

Phorm's statements regarding the "agreements" or "contracts" with the ISPs seems to suggest that it is Phorm who are running the business and that the ISPs are simply providing them with the data.

The reason I am querying this is that BT (and the other ISPs) term and conditions allow for personal information to be shared with "third-parties" and I'm curious as to whether this relationship actually does apply to Phorm.
Exactly (and hi to Minky - lovely picture Minky!)

BT have been using Phorm to handle the BT Webwise site, and to answer BT Webwise questions just like they use people like custhelp.com etc. to handle the Webwise contact page now (since we embarrassed them by discovering Phorm were doing it so they had to stop/disguise it).

It looks like a lose/lose whatever answer they give.
If Phorm ARE a partner with BT then BT can give them my PII as a partner according to the T&C's, but then that makes a nonsense of the promises that they never pass any PII to Phorm. Because they will already have given Phorm loads of PII via the BT Webwise site and the contact form (which we know they have in fact already done) - and then Phorm have PII, IP data, AND the UID data - the sort of data that enables them to destroy any semblance of protecting my privacy.

If Phorm are NOT a partner with BT in that sense, then they are barred from sharing my PII with Phorm, unless I have consented. Unfortunately they have already done this by letting Phorm walk all over the BT Webwise pages and handle BT Webwise contact page enquiries, so we have them by the short and curlies for doing it.

That is the point of my current DPA request. Hopefully it will cause the odd drop of sweat or swearword at the BT end.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 15:22
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34593868)
That's one of the significant unanswered questions. So far BT have avoided that one by simply refusing to take any responsibility for it. Their take so far is that they have one account, and whatever happens with that account or any of the sub accounts, is the responsibility of the account holder. They have NOT answered any questions about the enforceability of a change in T&C's triggered by a minor or any other user of the account/subaccounts, who opts in to Webwise.

When they don't answer a question it means they haven't got an answer. If they had a legal watertight answer, they would give it - anthing to help propr up the share price!!! And then there is usually a further delay in the trial date. So - "keep asking them difficult questions" is my method!
yep still waiting for my reply, time to give another prod me thinks,

and then leave it a while beore the next question so it adds further delays :)

peter

Rchivist 07-07-2008 15:26
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593848)
only problem with that is BT Retail use dynamic IP's

peter
which might change once they roll out Phorm as a way of differentiating the two types of customer? One lot could get lumped in (or added on to the edge of) with the static IP ranges given to BT Business customers, the others could remain on dynamic BT Residential Broadband IP ranges.

Of course all this would require co-operation with BT Wholesale contrary to regulator rules.

rryles 07-07-2008 15:38
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593870)
Only so long as we can know the exact mechanism they're using, I was just giving an example :) If they add a "secret" key prior to hashing it's more difficult still. I think Phorms "privacy enhancing" feature of leaking the UID over the entire web is the bigger issue for them to solve -- along with all the other show stoppers.
There are several big issues for Phorm to solve and no easy solutions. I don't see the point in debating which is the biggest.

The ironic thing is that in trying to design a system that mitigates the problem of UIDs leaking, you give yourself the problem of handling more PII (The IP address).

Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593870)
I don't think that matters, it's the uid number that links you to your profile and they'd simply set a valid cookie over the stale one. I'm only giving examples, they could use the hostname of the site so long as we don't know the mechanism (security by obscurity).
I think it does matter. How do you lock the uid to an IP address then allow the IP address to be dynamic?

When you reference 'security by obscurity' I hope you understand how bad a reputation this approach has!?

Rchivist 07-07-2008 15:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593807)
Very true they seem to have sliped with their due diligence mind they were blinded with greed and dollar signs.
Which raises the interesting question that I can't quite make my mind up on - are the people at BT really evil or are they just plain stupid?
I know from years as a customer that they are incompetent.
I know from years as a customer that they regard customers as irrelevant except as a source of income, and treat us with contempt - that is the default position, and many of the staff find that very difficult.
I know that they want to make money, but aren't very good at doing it.
I know that they have a lousy company structure and corporate culture, and that the management are very very poor at managing.
I know that they are devious and if they can possibly avoid it, they won't tell anyone anything - like they don't talk to their staff, they don't talk to their customers, and they only talk to the press when they want to sell something.


But I am not yet convinced that they really do want to break the law. I don't think they intend to be criminal. They are just too stupid to know that virtually 99% of this basic Webwise plan is illegal. In so many ways.

Hence the delays. As again and again, they discover (from us usually) the next bit they forgot to check, and that sadly the ICO or the police couldn't be bothered to enforce.

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe they are corrupt, law breaking criminal deceivers. Maybe. But personally - I think they are just stupid. Anyone from any reputable company who signed any sort of commercial agreement with a company with Phorm's background and reputation, MUST be stupid.

I suppose it's up to them to help us make up our minds. That is quite easy. Even a BT manager could work it out.

a) full disclosure of what they have been up to
b) apologise for mistakes and compensate for losses
c) dump Ertugrul completely as a bad mistake. Lesson learned. Don't do that again.
d) sack anyone who needs sacking - like the head of BT Retail at the time all this got started - oh yes - that was Ian Livingstone wasn't it? Arrange the employment tribunal and then if you have to, pay him his millions of CEO compensation and give him his P45. You can always sue him for it later when all this has been through the courts and the actions of the people responsible have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

bluecar1 07-07-2008 15:51
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
rob, why not say it like it is, and don't mince your words next time :P

there is one on here that could poss tell you the answer, but he is trying to keep out of BT's head lights at the mo

peter

HamsterWheel 07-07-2008 15:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I see there are calls here for BTs Heads to roll.
not sure why you think this is called for.
What they are doing with phorm is designed to make BT a substantial amount of money and increase it's share of the broadband market as other, non-Phorm, ISPs become unable to compete on price.
BT's shareholders will be very happy with this.

Deko 07-07-2008 16:00
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
wrong avatar image..

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

bluecar1 07-07-2008 16:04
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deko (Post 34593900)
nah, hammy got the right pic, if you look the person is headless

he he

headless chicken in a hamster wheel, yep , bout right

either that or the hamster should have a jacket on (like greyhounds with a number) but have the NODPI.ORG logo on it

peter

Florence 07-07-2008 16:06
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Suppose really BT need to confirm on if they knew 121media was under investigatioin when they allowed them lose on the network with customers details.

Suppose 121media now phorm should be investigated for the lrevious crimes since they dodged them then tried to come out all ligit.. Begining to sound like Kent is snakecharming BT into giving thjem respectability something phorm, 121media or any other reincarnation of them should ever be given.

Has anyone contacted those persuing 121media asking if they ever did locate them and did thye know they are now using the name of Phorm?

isf 07-07-2008 16:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593885)
There are several big issues for Phorm to solve and no easy solutions. I don't see the point in debating which is the biggest.
A debate wasn't my intention, I was simply putting it in perspective -- exactly as you did with your opening sentence.

Quote:
The ironic thing is that in trying to design a system that mitigates the problem of UIDs leaking, you give yourself the problem of handling more PII (The IP address).
I'm not trying to design their system for them, far from it. However if they insist on going ahead with this farce the least they can do is attempt to avoid leaking the uid.

Quote:
I think it does matter. How do you lock the uid to an IP address then allow the IP address to be dynamic?
The uid is a key to a database containing profile data, we're only talking about leakage due to phorged cookies under 3rd party domains. If a cookie is invalid, they simply overwrite it by spoofing a valid one.

Quote:
When you reference 'security by obscurity' I hope you understand how bad a reputation this approach has!?
Err yeah -- even although that's exactly what strong passphrases etc... are :)

Florence 07-07-2008 16:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Yet again BT beta forums go off for maintenance should we be worried are they about to cull webwise from the forums in a genicide attack...

Quote:
Thank you for visiting.


Due to essential maintenance work this section of the site is not currently available.

We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Please contact either your sales or service team with any further questions.

The numbers below may be of assistance while this section of the site is down.UK Directory Enquiries 118 500
International Directory Enquiries 118 505


Please note the remainder of the site is still available.

rossco555 07-07-2008 16:14
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Just read an article on Computer Weekly about talk of the goverment tapping into phone and internet traffic.....makes Phorm look tame!

Apologies if this link has already been posted.

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...d-internet.htm


Rossco

bluecar1 07-07-2008 16:17
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593903)
Has anyone contacted those persuing 121media asking if they ever did locate them and did thye know they are now using the name of Phorm?
not forgetting they have a nice shiney office in london and a registered address in states

he he

Deko 07-07-2008 16:19
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
CW could learn to use a spellchecker.

"interent traffic data"

bluecar1 07-07-2008 16:20
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593908)
Yet again BT beta forums go off for maintenance should we be worried are they about to cull webwise from the forums in a genicide attack...
back online

still there, just i think

peter

Wildie 07-07-2008 16:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossco555 (Post 34593913)
Just read an article on Computer Weekly about talk of the goverment tapping into phone and internet traffic.....makes Phorm look tame!

Apologies if this link has already been posted.

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...d-internet.htm


Rossco
you find they been doing that since the birth of radio and monitor the data and calls of every thing been transmitted, want proof say a few key words on the phone and you may here the line change just a little :P:D

rryles 07-07-2008 16:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593907)
A debate wasn't my intention, I was simply putting it in perspective -- exactly as you did with your opening sentence.
Fair enough. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593907)
I'm not trying to design their system for them, far from it. However if they insist on going ahead with this farce the least they can do is attempt to avoid leaking the uid.
It's just an interesting exercise to consider how they could try and work round problems. Invariably it shows that they are likely to come up with other problems. I'm pretty confident that when (if) they do launch, the uids will leak, phorm will be able to get at PII, profiles will be filled with bogus data and the phishing filter will cause more problems than it solves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isf (Post 34593907)
The uid is a key to a database containing profile data, we're only talking about leakage due to phorged cookies under 3rd party domains. If a cookie is invalid, they simply overwrite it by spoofing a valid one.
Ah, you mean using the 'master' cookie in phorm's own domain? Fair point. If the users in control of their pc's want to tamper with their uid they still can though.

Florence 07-07-2008 16:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
We have a new direction someone new on the scene who might be able to address some of the issues, Gavin Patterson is from now a non-executive director with immediate effect appointed by Media group Johnston Press Plc.
Patterson is a director of BT Group Plc. and is chief executive of BT Retail.

Dephormation 07-07-2008 16:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
If a third party were able to intercept a company's private commercial communications with its customers, how would that I tell the difference between that and any other form of industrial espionage?

Phorm must be stopped.

rryles 07-07-2008 16:46
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Phorm at close today:
925.00 -37.50 (-3.90%)

:angel:

bluecar1 07-07-2008 17:13
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593934)
Phorm at close today:
925.00 -37.50 (-3.90%)

:angel:
i got http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...%20B1WTNC4PHRM

937.500 -25.00 -2.60%

peter

Rchivist 07-07-2008 17:16
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593903)
Has anyone contacted those persuing 121media asking if they ever did locate them and did thye know they are now using the name of Phorm?
Make sure they chase the right Phorm. The one with the unregistered trademark, the nicked logo, and the unregistered product name. I'd hate them to sue those nice guys in Barnsley who think up their OWN company and product names, and design their OWN logo.

Still - I suppose as their name and logo were on the internet, Phorm maybe thought copyright didn't apply.

Dephormation 07-07-2008 17:26
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Astonishing TV interview with Tim Smart CEO of BT Global Services UK.

Tim Smart discusses benefits and downsides of surveillance. Mentions monitoring verbal conversations and delivering contextual advertising based on the content of the conversation.

States that the challenge is making sure both parties to conversation find it acceptable.

Watch here (click on chapter 5 and 19 to skip to Tim Smarts piece)

Peter N 07-07-2008 17:34
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34593889)
Which raises the interesting question that I can't quite make my mind up on - are the people at BT really evil or are they just plain stupid?
Not just plain stupid - they are arrogant, ignorant and incompetent as well.

Lots of companies make bad decisions - anyone remember New Coke or the Ford Pinto - but BT's refusal to answer the most basic questions without having to refer the questions to Phorm shows incompetence while their refusal to respond directly to their customers is totally ignorant.

The worse element for me is their arrogant refusal to admit their mistakes and at least acknowledge that they acted in haste. They have allowed their company to be humliated and degraded in the eyes of many people. BT seem oblivious to fact that some of those offended by their actions and behavior will also have control of substantial business contracts with BT which are not going to be renewed not because of privacy concerns but because they feel that BT is untrustworthy and has crawled too far up it's own backside.

madslug 07-07-2008 17:49
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34593702)
one of the important things we do not know is are the adverts server by the adserver or does the profiler insert a link to an external website for you to pull the advert

if it is external, we can block them, if they come from the profiler we can't

peter
For the 2006/7 trials, they used js to call the ads off an external server.

Logically, they can only have one database for the ads which will either be called by the virtual site they host at the ISP or the actual site.

Either way, blocking the domain in the hosts file will prevent the display of ads.

There is one big problem with all ideas about blocking and boycotting advertisers. So much of the press I have read has talked about the top 4,000 brands being used for the various BT type profilers. We almost HAVE to buy them because that is all there is in the market place.

On the other hand, the other day in the supermarket - own brand ginger beer @44p, sprite/7up etc all around £1.45. A good £1 being paid for the non-supermarket side of the branding, which will include advertising costs. That, on its own, is a good enough reason to boycott all brands (at least the top 4k)

I for one don't want to pay more for branded goods just because their advertising budget is going up.

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34593721)
One method of messing with Phorm's data that I think has a great deal of potential would be for a server side Phorm webwise UID exchange system.

If websites replaced the UID in the webwise cookie Phorm forges for their domain with one donated by another site with totally unrelated content and dontated your UID into a pool, your browsing of the site would polute someone else's profile, and similarily your profile would be poluted by other people's browsing and the website would benefit as Phorm adverts targeted on their content would be severed up to people who had never visited their site :cool:
If you exchange UIDs - the UID is still collecting data about global surfing habits. Better to have no phorm than just find ways of getting round it.

Rchivist 07-07-2008 17:54
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34593923)
It's just an interesting exercise to consider how they could try and work round problems. Invariably it shows that they are likely to come up with other problems.
This is actually a very useful approach and I think should be used more against BT in particular. (It won't work against Phorm)

1 - demonstrate that their current proposals on Webwise are illegal/insecure/technically unworkeable or preferably all 3 (we've done that)
2 - make an informed guess about alternative ways they might do it.
3 - wait a while (so that they get committed to exploring the alternatives)
4 - point out that the alternatives they might be exploring, are also illegal/insecure/impossible
5 - go back to 2 and repeat

I like to give them a month or so between cycles.

It is also important to intersperse, simultaneously, a spattering of (valid and justifable) regulatory complaints at strategic intervals, preferably from different directions - ICO one month, Ofcom the next, so that as they are working on a "new" solution to try and retrofit Webwise for legality, they simultaneously have to invest a lot of time arguing that the previous solution was not illegal - they have to do this at the same time as they are devising a NEW solution because actually they already know the original solution WAS illegal, but can't admit it. The potential for wrong emails/briefings going to the wrong people is enormous because they are having to think about diametrically opposed things at the same time.

Certainly from the public statements from BT that we have seen in various media, there is every evidence to conclude that at BT, this has already happened.

Think of it as ordering a suit from the tailor, and then sending in a different member of your family every time you go for a fitting. Eventually the tailor will become completely confused- you may even drive him completely mad. Obviously you would not want to do this to any tailor unless he had really upset you in the past.

Then, there is of course my former flatmate's utlimate nuclear deterrent method for dealing with awkward organisations with a toxic bureaucratic structure, and a lot of inefficiency and leakage.

Start to refer, threateningly, to non-existent correspondence. This method is explained clearly in the management training film (released as a commercial cartoon entertainment) called "Asterix and the 12 Tasks" - where Asterix, after being given the run-around in a manner which anyone familiar with customer service phone messaging systems will recognise, eventually asks for a Permit A39 as stipulated in circular B65 (or something similar). Neither documents actually exist, and the building eventually explodes or collapses with all the staff running out into the Via Whateverus gibbering and screaming.


Footnote - the above paragraph was a joke. (but only the above paragraph). The rest is serious.

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34593983)
Astonishing TV interview with Tim Smart CEO of BT Global Services UK.

Tim Smart discusses benefits and downsides of surveillance. Mentions monitoring verbal conversations and delivering contextual advertising based on the content of the conversation.

States that the challenge is making sure both parties to conversation find it acceptable.

Watch here (click on chapter 5 and 19 to skip to Tim Smarts piece)
I wonder what his email address is? FirstnameDOTlastnameATbtDOTcom ? like the usual format?

Tim Smart deserves mail.

Update - I got an immediate reply and have initiated a correspondence. Can't quote at the moment. We'll see how it goes.

If you do email him, be polite. I was impressed at the speed of the reply.

warescouse 07-07-2008 18:13
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34593903)
cut..
Has anyone contacted those persuing 121media asking if they ever did locate them and did thye know they are now using the name of Phorm?
I refer you to Alex's post #10957. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34594020)
This is actually a very useful approach and I think should be used more against BT in particular. (It won't work against Phorm)

1 - demonstrate that their current proposals on Webwise are illegal/insecure/technically unworkeable or preferably all 3 (we've done that)
2 - make an informed guess about alternative ways they might do it.
3 - wait a while (so that they get committed to exploring the alternatives)
4 - point out that the alternatives they might be exploring, are also illegal/insecure/impossible
5 - go back to 2 and repeat

I like to give them a month or so between cycles.

...cut
Couldn't you just give BT a piece of paper with PTO written on both sides. I think the end result would be the same. Confusion!

Wildie 07-07-2008 18:14
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
make sure the email has lots of adverts in it well the 2nd one you send off after your scanned it looking for key words to match the advert :)

warescouse 07-07-2008 18:24
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34594000)
Not just plain stupid - they are arrogant, ignorant and incompetent as well.

Lots of companies make bad decisions - anyone remember New Coke or the Ford Pinto - but BT's refusal to answer the most basic questions without having to refer the questions to Phorm shows incompetence while their refusal to respond directly to their customers is totally ignorant.

The worse element for me is their arrogant refusal to admit their mistakes and at least acknowledge that they acted in haste. They have allowed their company to be humliated and degraded in the eyes of many people. BT seem oblivious to fact that some of those offended by their actions and behavior will also have control of substantial business contracts with BT which are not going to be renewed not because of privacy concerns but because they feel that BT is untrustworthy and has crawled too far up it's own backside.
I cannot understand why Virgin Media have not come out with a statement totally removing themselves with any relationship with Phorm and this type of DPI targeted advertising methodology. If they cannot see by this day that this in-line 'spyware' not going to to be ignored by the authorities for ever they must be fools as well. There must be a point where they must see that the outrage is only going to get bigger and bigger, and bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Rchivist 07-07-2008 18:40
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34593983)
Astonishing TV interview with Tim Smart CEO of BT Global Services UK.

Tim Smart discusses benefits and downsides of surveillance. Mentions monitoring verbal conversations and delivering contextual advertising based on the content of the conversation.

States that the challenge is making sure both parties to conversation find it acceptable.

Watch here (click on chapter 5 and 19 to skip to Tim Smarts piece)
My favourite quote is this one here in the second clip (Chap 19)

"Big businesses are unlikely to do anything that damages their brand in any sustainable way, so that gives us all cause for optimism."

Oh no of course not. How could they ever be so STUPID?

Maggy 07-07-2008 19:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34594045)
make sure the email has lots of adverts in it well the 2nd one you send off after your scanned it looking for key words to match the advert :)

How will this help the antiphorm cause?Spamming someone because they are in disagreement with what you support is disgusting..and totally against what this campaign is all about...:(

Paul Delaney 07-07-2008 19:39
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
BT have always been the Internet user's enemy.

I remember having a heated discussion with a supervisor from their telco customer services in 1998 following a huge phone bill due to their insistance, at the time, that all Internet connections should be metered. I said then that they were standing in the way of technology to which he responded:

We own the wiring - all of it

Perhaps they consider Phorm as a method of getting that metered revenue back?

Wildie 07-07-2008 19:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34594143)
How will this help the antiphorm cause?Spamming someone because they are in disagreement with what you support is disgusting..and totally against what this campaign is all about...:(
it`s IRONY
you missed the smilly and the joke.:D

JohnHorb 07-07-2008 19:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34594152)
it`s IRONY
you missed the smilly and the joke.:D
I was thinking an irony smiley would be useful here;)


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:56.
Page 113 of 143 « First 1363103109110111112 113 114115116117123 Last »
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
All Posts and Content are © Cable Forum