Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is not very often I would say I trust Microsoft, but given the choice I know which one I would choose.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In reply to Peter N #11095
Are we selling I thought we were informing and one of the most poignant actions of the day is to deliver the complaint to the police,also you can talk of what has happened as you have some evidence whereas the goalposts and the future direction of PHorm webwise is an unknown quantity and changes daily, proving past illegalities will grab peoples attention and when it starts then and only then will the likes of BT and PHorm Err on the side of legal.
I totally agree with what you say on Questions its like the old adage if you ask "are you aware" it invokes the answer "yes/no I am or not aware.Keeping it short and to the point is imperative.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies if I have missed this but has anyone informed the masses via social network sites, MySpace/Bebo/Facebook..... I dont have any personal accounts so I dont know how they work exactly, but I do know they are a force to be reckoned with, there was a recent article in Micro Mart reference this forcing large companies normally insurmountable by individuals to bow to popular public opinion. Nothing biased, just give them the truth and especially televised instances.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anybody thought of inviting or contacting David Davis, MP about all this? Would of thought this was right up his street. Covert surveillance for financial gain, and possible Government use at a later date...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good point - which is why I suspect the anti-Phorm campaign will never get much support from Government departments.

Doubt they'll ever use Phorm, but I'm sure they could figure out a way of monitoring internet usage to look for crims and terrorists searching for bomb recipes etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Article on the reg today about data protection in the UK.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...ction_changes/

It isn't entirely on topic for the discussions of Phorm/WebWise that we have on this board but I liked the quote from Dr Chris Pounder, a data protection consultant:

"The ICO needs the power to audit and the ability to fine when transgressions occur. If you get them by the balls then their hearts and minds will follow - increase the risks for organisations with big fines for failure and that will cause a culture change."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which is also a good reason we have to be thankful that we are members of the EC. Even if our Government are not inclined to take action soon (and that's not a foregone conclusion), in time they will be forced to do so.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just wanted to chip in here, its important to state in big letters, for people new to this thread

Your privacy can never be 'enhanced' by allowing someone to read all of your communications.


Phorm cannot assure you that they don't store any recognisable data. They have been asked many times to explain how they anonymise a block of text grabbed from the net. Lets suppose this system really exists. How will it cope with the multinational nature of the internet? Multiple languages? Foreign identifier formats? Foreign character encoding? Cultural differences? Instant Messenger IDs? All personal names in whatever language? Its obviously nonsense.

The consequence? Phorm will process and store recognisable and personally identifiable information.

To repeat; Phorm will process and store recognisable and personally identifiable information.

Its technically impossible to anonymise web data, and anyone who tells you otherwise is fibbing. Anyone who opts into Phorm believing their privacy is somehow enhanced is bonkers.

If the ICO were competent to analyse Phorm, they would have realised that.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/25.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The government (agencies) can already do that.

They need some other incriminating evidence first to present to a judge to obtain a warrant to allow them access to the ISP DPI logs first though.

Monitoring is nothing new, for example in 2002 Microsoft scanned Hotmail email content using keywords such as "DevilsOwn" the name of the release group who first produced a pirated copy of XP.

They didn't have kit installed with an ISP though...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This thread is not about legal interception for the purposes of national security or other authorised snooping, obnoxious though some of us may find it. It is about illegal interception for the purpose of advertising or criminal acts, and the governments failure to enforce the laws against it. :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Absolutely correct, phorm are not interested in removing your data, they need your data to build up a profile, whether opt-in or out, if opted-out the users will not see the ads, but will still be profiled.

I believe when this goes live(if ever)BT.Phorm are in for a rude awaking, how could they have not known phorms past, did they ever bother to find out. There is not One antivirus/spyware company that supports phorm, none of them believe the rubbish that phorm will protect users, so who do you believe, a company that tries to protect your PC, or one that installed rootkits on users systems without telling.

---------- Post added at 10:15 ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 ----------

We need to let users know that BT executives will not be having phorm on their personal PC, this is only for the little people, BT do not care about their customers, its more of," do as i say", not, "do as i do, mythology.

Could someone ask Emma Sanderson if she will have phorm on her personal PC or not, if not, why.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Believe me I have tried and still am trying to do this but he is incredibly difficult to get hold of, all emails get standard auto responses and phone messages go un-answered.

I was given a contact in the HoC who may be able to contact him and I sent them an email yesterday so lets hope that works out.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hammy , did you know they can already do this and do, via the correct procedures after making an application for warrant under the relevant section of RIPA (2000) and that various MP's etc are already making noises about the level of general surveillance in the UK and trying to reduce it, also the EU is looking at forcing the UK to toughen up RIPA and reduce its scope for being abused

so i do not think the government will be interest in an outdated anti-phishing filter that does not store data and can not know who visited that website for the copy of the anarchists cook book as it store no PII or IP addresses , do you?, that is unless you know different and can post the information here (i think not)

oh and by the why HMG already has effective systems in place for that anyway, how do you think they thwart terrorism so well

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well said, if people wish to discuss legal national security interception I would suggest they create another thread. Discussing that here dilutes the content of this thread which has been mentioned in various postings several times before about other irrelevant items as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

my post was relevant as it pointed out that due to phorm not storing PII type information it was not suitable for that application of the technology, so that that avenue of conversation was cut off

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Peter, I was writing my post as you must have been typing yours. It was not aimed at your post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Simon, I could have given you this quote too;

http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/customer_choice.html

And by opted-in traffic, they mean from the user pov not the server pov. But obviously, don't say so.

And just in case you need to know where to send the Notice of Legal Action;

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and what about the opt-in/out server run by phorm sat at gyron??

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting that only the user's request is mirrored and not the response from the server. Or are they misunderstanding how HTTP works. I assume that it's actually both the request and the response which are mirrored, but it might be worth checking - we might be getting in a lather over nothing ;)

Or are they relying on misinformed consent?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would interpret 'user's request' to include the serviced request data from the server that is mirrored and profiled. Phorm surely would need to 'see' and mirror this data to eventually show the http page containing the Phorm/Webwise adverts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK let me just clarify something here. The page that you request from the server is mirrored irrespective of whether or not you are opted in opted out or shaking it all about. Kent made this clear at the PIA meeting as does Dr. Richard Clayton's analysis if I remember correctly. The only difference is if you have an opt-out cookie or you have the domain blocked for cookies that data is not passed to the channel server, it still goes through the profiler.

I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to what is on the WebWise page as it is likely to be a bunch of bs given that they are not going to explain the "technicalities" to "mere customers" because you see, if you remember correctly, we are all too stupid to understand such complex systems.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not convinced BT really understands what is going on either!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT and understand should not be used in the same message.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Steve Gibsons Security Now! Podcast (151) is available at the link below:

http://twit.tv/sn151 (This Week In Tech TV)

Running time: 1:46:37

additionally mp3 available to download on this site

EDIT: More to come again in another 2 weeks

EDIT2: Phorm starts just after halfway, with small intro at the start

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Awesome. Just awesome. Break it to the audience gently why don't you Steve. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

have requested permission to use images for links to the Podcast. I will advise of the result when reply received.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have you tried contacting his campaign people?

contact@daviddavisforfreedom.com

http://www.daviddavisforfreedom.com/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We all know that the anti-phishing' part of webwise is a complete red herring and seen as a bolt-on to sell the technology to the unsuspecting public. Here's the proof that it is a red herring and smoke screen...

PECR states certain provisions relating to the processing of traffic data under regulation 7:-

Regulation 8 (2) Processing of traffic data in accordance with regulation 7 shall be restricted to what is required for the purposes of one or more of the activities listed in paragraph (3) and shall be carried out only by the public communications provider or by a person acting under his authority.

(3) The activities referred to in paragraph (2) are activities relating to -

(a) the management of billing or traffic;
(b) customer enquiries;
(c) the prevention or detection of fraud;
(d) the marketing of electronic communications services; or
(e) the provision of a value added service.

A,B,C,and D don't apply to webwise, so you see, some form of 'value added service' had to be stuck on to 'attempt' to comply with PECR
That is why the 'anti-phishing' is being pushed so much.

But even so, webwise 'still' falls foul of the regulations because it still does not collect explicit informed consent.

PECR explanatory notes...
Regulation 6 provides that an electronic communications network may not be used to store or gain access to information in the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user ("user" is defined as "any individual using a public electronic communications service") unless the subscriber or user is provided with certain information and is given the opportunity to refuse the storage of or access to the information in his terminal equipment.

Regulations 7 and 8 set out certain restrictions on the processing of traffic data relating to a subscriber or user by a public communications provider. "Traffic data" is defined as "any data processed for the purpose of the conveyance of a communication on an electronic communications network or for the billing in respect of that communication". "Public communications provider" is defined as "a provider of a public electronic communications network or a public electronic communications service".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All accessible web traffic was originally going to be mirrored, although not passed right through the profiler.

Phorm launches data pimping fight back

So if I'm opted out, data passes straight between me and the website I'm visiting? It doesn't enter Phorm's systems at all?

Marc Burgess: What happens is that the data is still mirrored to the profiler but the data digest is never made and the rest of the chain never occurs.

However, this soon changed. The change has been restated a number of times, but I think the following quote represents the first time.

Phorm’s Answers (part3)

phail: Virgin and BT are both currently operating an OPT-OUT solution, which would mean all users are opted in by default, and even if they are opted out OUR data is mirrored on phorm servers, regardless of whether the data is used, you ARE collecting it.

KentErtugrul: When a user opts out, the system is OFF. There is no data collection at all

The 18 May amendment to Richard Clayton’s analysis does include this, as one of the updates provided by Phorm.

The Phorm “Webwise� System

Phorm also say that “in many ISP implementations (all of the UK ones for instance)â€ÂÂ� the mirroring system described in paragraph 2 above, can be set to only mirror the traffic of users who have a valid UID. Thus the traffic of those who have the “OPTED OUTâ€ÂÂ� cookie (or are cookie-disabled) is not mirrored and does not reach the out-of-band machine.

Even without any Phorm-provided equipment, ISPs already rummage through your HTTP headers. They need to record the host names in all the URLs you access, to comply with the Home Office Voluntary Code of Practice on Data Retention.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah just automated responses, but I have his private email address now so I will give that a try, been a bit busy this afternoon.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Nooo, even then it does not comply with PECR. Firstly 3e does not remove the requirement of explicit informed consent. Secondly WebWise is a completely seperate entity to the OIX platform, so even if they managed to palm off some value added service for WebWise (the anti-phishing) it -still- doesn't cover them for the behavioural profiling for OIX which has nothing to do with the Anti-Phishing and is purely a commercial venture based around advertising.

Why are so many people seeming to try and make excuses for Phorm/BT today? We need to stop second guessing ourselves here folks otherwise any new readers are going to think there is some doubt over whether or not it is illegal, let me make it very clear there is no doubt whatsoever that without consent this technology is ILLEGAL. Myself and other more qualified experts have very thoroughly analysed the law on these issues months ago and there are no grey areas.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No excuses! I did use the words...to 'attempt' to comply with , and not just 'to comply'.
I have added the fact that explicit informed consent is 'still' required to that post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't trust that at all. I heard and saw Kent state with his own voice and lips that opted out traffic -still- goes through the profiler but simply doesn't get passed onto the channel server. I was about 4 feet away from him at the time. Furthermore, notice the choice of words:

He is very careful to avoid saying anything about the profiler and simply says no collection, which knowing Kent probably means "We don't send the data to the channel server" (which is the same as he said 4 months ago at the meeting). I don't for one second believe that they have redesigned the system to completely bypass that Layer 7 Switch for opted out users, not even a fraction of a second.

Oh and lets not forget he has also claimed that there is no data collected when the system is opted-in, in fact that has been his biggest PR strategy. The man wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and waved an OIX banner in his face.

If he wants me to believe that I will need to see real proof because frankly his word doesn't cut it and it is a complete contradiction of himself for the system to work in the way you just described it. Rule of thumb - "Don't trust a damn word that come's out of Kent's mouth."

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ----------

I think people are so used to the thread being so busy they feel that have to write something and so in the absence of any new data they are second guessing what we already know.

Why not just take an evening off, things are very positive for us at the moment so relax a little whilst we have the opportunity.

1. Still no trials.
2. NebuAd frozen out of the US market by 4 or 5 ISPs now.
3. Baroness Miller addressing the Home Office.
4. Meeting with Earl of Northesk.
5. The Protest.
6. Home Office FOI showing BT panicking.
7. Phorm shares getting lower than a prom queen at a limbo dance.

And that is just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more reasons to be happy than that.

So chill for a couple of hours, it won't last long we will have to be back on the front line again before you know it, so enjoy it whilst you can. There is plenty of information right here already to keep even the most interested reader busy for a month.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

EOD PHRM.L Trading update.


Bid 925.00
Ask 1000.00
Price 962.50
Change +0 (+0.00%)
Last Trade 935.00 (14:08:00)
Trading Vol. 3,701

Have a good weekend guys

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually the price is down as it closed at 935.00 which puts it down -27.50 (-2.86%) or at least that is what Google Finance is showing. But yes a good end to the week :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which isn't a bad result for the day considering.... its an American Holiday :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At the risk of repeating myself repeating myself: Does phorm still profile your surfing if you opt out? WE DON'T KNOW. Only phorm know, and they are not telling. As the recent posts show, we have heard different stories from different people at different times. EVEN BT DOES NOT KNOW even though they might think (hope) that they do. The fact is they are selling off our data stream to a bunch of crooks without any way of verifying what is being done with it or what may be done with it. And as was pointed out earlier, all traces are eventually deleted, thus neatly avoiding the Google/Viacom situation. It might be worth asking the BT shareholders if they are happy that their board is being so reckless - they are at the mercy of phorm and Ertegrul's collective integrity - not a place I would wish to be!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed we can second guess all we like but the true facts are all that count, Phorm /webwise intercept you connection no matter how you try to cover this over it is illegal..... from there the scripting is no matter there is no benefit to the customer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wrote to David Davis recently and "inphormed" him, I did say that I expected that he had already heard about Phorm though. I received a standard written reply on his behalf this morning thanking me for my support etc. but no mention of Phorm. I am now waiting for a reply to my letter, which they have told me is comming, from my MP David Cameron.

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On a side topic for a moment, I've updated my graph of BT shares held in treasury. Nothing dramatic, but it looks like they will accumulate around 8-10% of the shares by the AGM, improving earnings per share, and perhaps making it harder for remaining shareholders to unseat board members (no idea whether that's the strategy, but it is an effect).

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/53.png

Usual caveats, if you want share advice, or value your life savings, go to a stock broker, not an IT tech.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looking at BT's present performance an IT tech mihgt bw able to improve the share prices since the managment BT has now seem unable to think outside the box.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok Guys

Just got a response from Steve Gibson:

Hi ******,

You are welcome to use the image at the TWiT page, and, yes, any anti-Phorm campaigns are also welcome to use the pic and links, etc. We're all on the same side in this issue. :)

Thanks for your note, for your interest ... and all the best,

The image to link is at the URL below:

<<http://twit.tv/sites/all/themes/twit/img/podcasts/podcast_2.jpg>>

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

and create the link back to:

http://twit.tv/sn151

This will be more professional looking. And as Steve Gibson says above, all Anti Phorm Campaigns are welcome to use :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Speaking of security gurus - you may have heard of Bruce Schneier. He's a bit of a heavyweight in the IT security world. He releases and monthly newsletter on security.

His website can be found here:

http://www.schneier.com/

I was surprised to find out that he is 'Chief Security Technology Officer' of BT. I wrote him an email, before I knew this fact and asked why he hadn't written any articles about Phorm. He replied that the technology was 'not particularly interesting'.

Technically, this may be true. However, he also writes about all sorts of stuff relating to the intersection of technology and privacy and social issues - which is why I was all the more surprised at the time.

In light of the new information, I wouldn't be surprised if his reticence has anything to do with his position. Though this is mere speculation on my part.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Privacy International in the news again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7488524.stm

Google's plans to launch a mapping tool in the UK could be referred to the Information Commissioner.

Street View matches photos of locations to maps, including passers-by who were captured as the photograph was taken.

"In our view they need a person's consent if they make use of a person's face for commercial ends," said Simon Davis of the group.
If the group does not get the answer it seeks within seven days, Mr Davies said it would write to the Information Commissioner seeking a suspension of the service in the UK.



It's a pity that Privacy International are not as outspoken about companies that want to make use of our data for commercial ends.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Other people to possibly invite to speak at the demo:

Tim Burners-Lee

Tony Benn

Shami Chakrabarti

?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap:
Very true they left the British public high and dry in the phorm stink..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just saw a post from a mate on a message board who wrote to several MPs/MEPs. With his permission, I quote:

"I've just noticed a reply from one of my MEPs - Edward McMillan-Scott MEP ( Yorkshire & Humber , UK , Conservative) Vice-President of the European Parliament.

He is opposed to the way Phorm has been introduced without telling customers.

He also brought to my attention the following website:

www.antiphorm.com "

Another potential invite/ally? :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is the 80/20 pia finsihed yet thats well over a month behind now isnt it ?.

Simon hasnt shown his face in oo quite a while now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just received my custom spreadshirt. Quality is excellent, can recommend them.

Mines much less subtle than Alex's design. STOP PHORM in monster size letters :) and big graphics.

Alex's tasteful design is here...
http://nodpi.spreadshirt.net/en/GB/Shop
or you can design your own less subtle message (don't forget to select a basic white t-shirt)...
http://www.spreadshirt.net/en/EU/Cre...t/Designer-59/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's quite a dilemma for him after co-authoring books such as "Electronic Privacy Papers. Interestingly one of his essays http://www.schneier.com/essay-115.html has the sentence "We're giving up privacy without getting any security in return.". Not quite the same but his position may be similar to that of of Simon (80/20) of Privacy international. Do you bite the hand that feeds you or do you keep a clear conscience. Maybe we should ask the guy? Another interesting essay "Why "Anonymous" Data Sometimes Isn't" http://www.schneier.com/essay-200.html.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've emailed him to ask his views on the security implications of DPI being used for targetted advertising and mentioned NebuAd - particularly with respect to the security of personal identifiers within the system. I haven't mentioned Phorm. As he lives in the USA (California) he will be aware of NebuAd. I mentioned that Steve Gibson was podcasting on the subject as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for this PM, I've sent an email to Steve thanking him for the excellent coverage on Phorm and for allowing us to use the image, as it never hurts to say thank you :)

As you say it does make things look a little more professional, and I've updated my blog posts accordingly.

Thanks again PM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You should also link to Steve's securitynow page - http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm which has all versions of the audio together with the very useful transcripts. twit.tv is Leo's site (who seems in this instance to be agreeing with Steve, but he doesn't always!) and only has the high resolution audio.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Aye Dave, I've included links to the Security Now page already, as the transcripts are extremely useful :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For anyone wanting the source of the "we can see the entire internet" quote - its here

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/bu...in&oref=slogin

and dates from 20th March or thereabouts. It was said by Virasb Vahidi, Chief Operating Officer of Phorm, in a US press conference.

It took a while to find, as all the quotes of the quote were about "we can see the WHOLE internet" which is a misquote.

Worth resurrecting that quote, as I don't think it is the sort of thing Phorm want us to remember (unless they are trying to sell OIX spaces).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that 80/20's contract had been terminated or that Phorm as the "employer" of the services had decided not to publish the work. When the meeting videos failed to appear I thought 80/20 may have been having difficulties with their client.

Consultants often provide this sort of service, only to have it end up in a filing cabinet somewhere. I've worked as a consulting engineer and a project manager in a different field and it happens all the time. It's not uncommon for clients to shop around for a consultant that agrees with their already determined opinion.

Simon may not have been prepared to sacrifice his integrity to suit his client. I've walked away from clients that have done something similar.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You maybe could have pointed out the article also finished with the quote by Virasb Vahidi “Because we feel very comfortable that our claims are true.”

So they cannot deny it either.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

In view of the great work done by Simon in the past I for one would sincerely like to think this was the case. But this is slightly off topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes I saw those quotes also about inspecting the technology. Strange - I don't see any reference since to the independent audit of their installed software in the BT servers or in the Phorm side of the equation. Promised - not delivered. Maybe Virasb is feeling a bit less comfortable nowadays.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Compare the Virasb quote with this from the CEO of NebuAd.

"Google knows what they do on your site, but we know everywhere you go, the sites you stop at and ads you see"

These companies all seem to be cut from the same cloth.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, but not only the same cloth. Some of them seem have had links in the past in some way to either spyware, adware, rootkits, or combinations of. (Or does that come under your meaning of same cloth?).

Isn't it amazing how any involved in those practices have in my opinion suddenly seen the errors of their old ways and have attempted to 'cast away' those nasty linkages. Strange also that they all have similar ideas and also seem to be singing from a similar song sheet. (Yet the words seem not too dissimilar from those uttered in the past?)
ref: Wayback machine:
http://web.archive.org/web/200512111...com/index.html
and what does f-secure mention about it.
I refer to http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/apropos.shtml

"PeopleOnPage produces the Apropos family of spyware"

and who produced PeopleOnPage. I leave that for any readers who don't know to find out for themselves.

If you get stuck try here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Following up from some information on the mediapost site I found some other interesting references I don't recall seeing here before although they date back to April.

http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3628943
These two reports also - warning pdf links

http://www.networkadvertising.org/ne...nts_FTC_BT.pdf

http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/behav...stecomment.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Using the reference contained within your quote, it would mean that using the current known implementation of WebWise a single broadband connection could be opting back in to WebWise over twice times the number of users of the connection per month. (If the opt out mechanism is not done at account level.).

This cookie method of opt-in / opt-out is obviously flawed IMHO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would, but remember that the ISP in the USA using NebuAd (WOW) didn't even advise their customers it was happening and simply changed their terms and conditions to allow it to happen anyway.

The NAI and eTrust pdfs I linked to are quite disturbing to me. Briefly the NAI really seem to think that behavioural targetting is OK, it's quite safe, the consumers have control, the "market" should be self-regulated and that "educating the consumer" (whatever that means when they say it) is all they have to worry about. They are completely ignoring the consumers who don't like it.

Where on earth did BT-Phorm get the idea that most people would prefer personally targetted advertising when the eTrust report pdf is quite clear that 57% of their survey in the USA didn't like the idea of it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also wrote to him and have received no reply whatsoever. But to be honest I didn't expect one.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:12 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

People really need to keep up I am getting a bit fed up with repeating this every 4-7 days.

Simon Davies is out of the country on UN business and has been for several weeks and will be for several more weeks. Then he is back for a short time before being out of the country for another month.

He has assured me he will try and complete the PIA during his very limited time back in the UK.

However, as I have said several times now, it doesn't really matter when the PIA is completed it is very unlikely Phorm will be publishing it for public release.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:17 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------

You could have just asked me, my dissertation has 3 pages of references and that is one of them :) In fact the references section of my dissertation might be very useful for people who have just joined the debate or others who want to go back over some of the earlier info which appeared on the web, anyone is still welcome to download the dissertation it is available from the NoDPI web site.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is the very reason I moan from time to time about allowing the content on this thread to be diluted. People like Alex state something that everyone should read, but it sometimes gets lost very quickly pages back in time. If we allow off-topic debate to drag on by people who may be deliberately encouraging this to happen, interested members returning to the forum after a small gap in time can find they have thirty pages to read through and not everyone can put in that time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It was my view a fair few posts ago that the PIA would never see the light of day. It's a document that belongs to the clent and whatever it contains it is of no value now; the debate has moved much further on. I suspect that Simon, for whom many on this forum have great personal respect, would prefer that the completed document could disappear into the ether rather than be subject to any public scrutiny; his Company have already taken quite a bit of collateral damage in this Phorm debacle.

Simon was paid to do a job; business is business. It is a choice that most here regret as Simon is a natural ally but he did spend quite some time here explaining his position and I respect him for that.

Maybe it's time to let the PIA aspect go?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i like the bit

my bold

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The fact that the PIA has not been completed/published causes to me speculate on several possibilities.

I'm quite sure that Phorm originally intended to publish before the BT trials began. That it appears Phorm are not pressurising him to complete the full PIA could indicate that the trials are still some way off.

Given how Phorm selectively quoted from the interim PIA, if they've seen a draft and there was any scrap of comfort in it I'm sure they'd be pushing for completion so that they could selectively quote again (even if the full PIA never appeared publicly).

It could be that Simon has imposed a condition that if Phorm are to quote from it the full text must be published. If that's the case I'd bet any money that the PIA will never see the light of day.

It could be Simon has actually completed the PIA, but that it was so unfavourable the the client (Phorm) has instructed Simon to not reveal that it has been completed.

All in all, I cannot see any way in which the non-completion and publication of the full PIA is a good thing for Phorm. To that end I think we should keep reminding people that a full PIA was promised and it hasn't appeared. It is Phorm that should be asked where it is, not Simon - the business relationship between Simon and Phorm is a private matter for them alone.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this was ment to highlight the fact that phorm are looking at PII and collecting it, in total contrast to the public statements where ther say they don't

there is no way it was ment as a pro phorm statement

but i missed the i bit have now underlined, DOH!!!!!

sorry for any misunderstanding must have been reading to many HW posts

:dunce: :dunce: Peter :dunce: :dunce:

i shall just go and stand in the corner for a while:bigcry:

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My bold.

Do we trust them?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i will trust them when pigs fly (and i don't mean old bill in a helicopter :angel: )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The PIA has not yet been completed and it is one of the conditions that if it is quoted the entire document has to be made publicly available.

I communicate with Simon on a regular basis even though he is out of the country so I keep up to date on the PIA issue. The second anything changes I will make sure to let everyone know.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alex - but I didn't have the time to search the pdf's on my hard disk and it wasn't in any of the text files. I do have your research and greatly appreciate it. Somone else actually asked me if I knew where it was and thankfully I was able to find it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having now fully read the documents you mentioned I see your point and I don't disagree. It is very interesting that targeted advertising is not as popular as what BT advertises when they are attempting to justify their WebWise adoption.

The problem as I see it is that to all intents and purposes the behavioural targeting areas they discuss and mention in those documents are not addressing the differing deeper privacy issues and worries that Deep Packet Inspection presents and that is what really concerns me more right now. DPI used in the manner it would be used in the Phorm/WebWise system, in my opinion, is a possibly far more dangerous beast than standard cookie tracking.

How can a market self regulate itself when the system like DPI is too complicated for all but the very technically minded to fully understand. How can average consumers regulate what they don't fully or can even begin to understand? When a systems operation is very complicated, the legal rules to how that system operates must be decided by independents who have at least the ability to understand the systems operation and its possible flaws. DPI brings a new level of complexity to the table when coupled with advert targeting.

Phorm, for instance claim that their WebWise system somehow enhances privacy.

The source code that lift, mirrors and profiles data from the web pages and performs the magic to meet their claims is hidden from inspection. It is not open source and subject to independent security checks. My worry is how can this code ever be trusted to not have flaws. How is this regulated? Even if all was rosy in the Phorm's 'coding' garden and ignoring any possible illegalities, people have flaws also. By giving an unpoliced unaccountable commercial system the ability to inspect everything a user sees and types on the internet, human nature over time in the Phorm/WebWise system also becomes an extra privacy worry for me.

Apart also from all the 3rd party cookie shenanigans that has already worried security experts, I personally cannot see how a complicated arrangement such as WebWise, added to an existing system, could possible enhance security and privacy over what is already available for free already. I can block standard cookie tracking but I currently could not stop a Phorm/WebWise system intercepting my data, opt-in or opt-out. (Unless the claims are really centred towards the (IMHO) Red Herring? anti-phishing component).

It is systems such as this that should be fully investigated by the regulatory powers that be and where necessary they should call on independent experts with the required levels of understanding to help them make any rules and decisions. Certain systems cannot self-regulate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My favourite Phormism. Even if we took Phorm's word for it that it is less intrusive than Google etc, it would not do anything to remove or prevent those applications from doing what they already do.

The best that you could possibly say about Webwise is that it will add yet another way of trawling data on top of the existing ones.

The whole concept is as ridiculous as offering to give me my virginity back by doing exactly that same that I was doing when I lost it but with someone wearing a blindfold.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see phorm.webwise as a get around our ad blocking as they know we do it and the money is just not in it for them to be on outside been blocked, now they want the inside track to make sure they get lots of dosh and make dam sure our screens are full of it, the most unwanted thing on the web ADVERTS on every screen with no way to block em.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well earlyer today i did find out George Galloway has his own spot on a new internationally watched Net TV program station in the same vain as 18DS that disappeared a while back....

http://www.presstv.com/Programs/play....aspx?id=62059

dont use the silverlight, click on the windows media player to stream it.....

but im not sure george is a right guy to be asked for support :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A 307 redirect preserves the "Referer", but I don't think a 302 redirect does(?), So they couldn't use 302 as some sites, like erm, well the webwise opt-out site require referrer to function :D.

But as Phorm checks the agent string and only supports modern browsers, I guess it doesn't matter.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BTW, what happened to the weekend fun?....

BT need a boost at 6
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?a...nominee&nID=44

kents at 2 still
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?a...nominee&nID=45

and phorm is still No.1 OC
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?a...ominee&nID=132


and poor David Davis have only had 2 redeeming SOS Today
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?a...ominee&nID=398

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm watching/listening to him now. He seems a bit wooden in front of an autocue. He is a far better speaker on the fly but if you really want a vote. :td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if there's any connection between Phorm employing Simon Davies and the fact that he was embroiled in controversy in 2007 when Privacy International were widely accused of unduly critcising Google whilst appearing top defend Facebook and Microsoft by manilpulating the reporting system.

I'm also curious as to why Privacy International have been so quiet on the whole issue of Phorm especially as they are now attacking Google (phorm's favourite target) for updates to Google Earth.

Perhaps someone from Privacy International who doesn't have a vested interest in Phorm and who isn't on their payroll could attend the Barbican if only to explain their hands-off approach to the biggest privacy issue facing all internet users around the world since the birth of home computing - interception of all data regardless of origin or destination.

---------- Post added at 00:18 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

Rightly or wrongly he is also a very unpopular figure with many people because of some of his actions and statements regarding Iraq and the varioius claims regarding his relationship with the former Iraqi leadership.

He could be a serious liability when it comes to getting the message across as his high profile could prove to be distracting and there's a risk of many in "Middle England" simply switching off to anything he says.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

true but he's also potentially seeing all the posts here in his Email Notifications, so he May be reading some posts :wavey:

we dont forget , and its another reason and reminder to make sure we rely on ourselves to try and get, and make our own video's for the whole days activitys and chatter on digital video, charging laptops and mobiles for a full day is always a challenge in the wild OC, those invertors pluged into a lighter socket, i mentioned a while back are useful in this dont forget.

its werth thinking about and planing for just incase something good comes up, im sure it will, and it would be a shame if we didnt have it streamed on the Harddrive somewere on the web as soon as it happens....

and its all good for future video points of information and our own PR drives etc....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This just pollutes your traffic with spam and uses up your bandwidth and the bandwidth of sites you are visiting. It does nothing to protect the security of your internet connection and provides zero data protection. It is just a red herring, even it a well intentioned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

theres also the main point of good video taken on a tripod or solid wall/box/whatever... and thats potentially ready made users content the Tv might use in news clips coverage etc, currentTV being a good prospect OC.

its probably wise to NOT Sign any exclusive contracts for the use of your content though (but if their offering good money for it,you might share it with them ,keeping all your rights to use it as you please as the owner OC)

---------- Post added at 01:09 ---------- Previous post was at 00:48 ----------

regarding NebuAd as a side note theres that old site (split to stop it going off the side of the screen,cut and paste the full url)
http://www.stopscum.com/archives/gat...ting_services_
and_behaviorlinkcom_some_new_names_but_the_same_ol d_spyware_parent.html

that tells all about Gator NebuAds many prior names...upto that February 17, 2005 date

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 ----------

asking for permission for all ANti-Phorm/NoDPI users to use the video/Audio and make small clips of them to help bring out the key points he makes , an Official Audio quote clip if you will, could also be a good thing.

i heard him say they had worked out how to use 2 skyPE feeds to stream to many viewers of the live show?, one for Audio and one for Video, so i assume theres video of it too somewere ? so perhaps video quote clips can also be made if they give permission for that to..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be careful if filming or photographing as any recording of shareholders, bystanders or passers-by could be deemed a breach of privacy and you don't want to give BT or Phorm any easy points to pick you up on where that's concerned.

Be especially careful with the shareholders as you don't want to rile them and check up on the current state of the law regarding any filming where children's images could be captured.

The last thing you want is someone accusing you of double standards or, worse still, being arrested or having your recordings confiscated for breach of privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this is interesting
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...vis_interview/
David Davis tells El Reg that Labour is 'mesmerised' by tech

Liberties sacrificed for 'an illusion'

By John Ozimek → More by this author
Published Friday 4th July 2008 11:43 GMT

looking up John on that link
http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=John%20Ozimek
he did this too
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...otography_law/ ;)
So, what can you photograph?

Anything - bar a few exceptions

By John Ozimek → More by this author
Published Monday 23rd June 2008 10:41 GMT

it seems like the perfect laymans handbook for your good points ,well made, Peter

---------- Post added at 03:40 ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 ----------

perhaps OT but it IS relevent to the bigger long term picture
if it looks like it might get lots of unrelated posts, mods can move them to the already provided BT BR thread below if they feel it becomes required. copyed this over there #14 just incase, to keep it all linked together.

hmm, good and bad points here, fibre good, Phorm bad, BT infrastructure better, Virgin Media Infrastructure over suscribed....
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...bre_intellect/
Ofcom said.....(lets do a deal?)

"
Ofcom flashes cash guarantees at BT for fibre investment

Next gen network quid pro quo tabled

By Chris Williams → More by this author
Published Friday 4th July 2008 13:54 GMT

..."

meanwhile over on Ofcomwatch

perhaps it's just me ,but i cant agree with his implyed 'they were to busy' i get the feeling, it looks like theres no real End users Advocates for the new chair spot yet, or any real way to see justice done for thoughs that cant afford the high court baristers fees upfront....for that matter, perhaps the HoL can re-ballance that feeling with a little time and openly seen effort...! AND real positive results for all to see and benefit from in the short to middle term OC

http://www.ofcomwatch.co.uk/2008/07/...ral-injection/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All

Just put up Anti-Phorm Video #3 the new video is Here enjoy. :D

Anti-Phorm Video #2 is Here

Kent Down The Pan is Here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting link showing some stuff about the possible background of some of the top staff working for NebuAD.

http://www.charterwatcher.com/2008/s...und-on-nebuad/

NebuAD are involved in a similar type of targeted advert business on the other side of the pond using packet inspection .

Other items on the site are worth a browse IMHO. Charterwatcher's intent is to be a single location for all of the available information regarding Charter’s wire-tapping and advertising program.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great Quote!!!!

Guys, a member on badphorm made the following post:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?7200

Check out the Quote:

Dr Arvind Narayanan Who un-anonymised Netflix.
"The behavioural profiles Phorm collects are exactly the type of data on which our techniques are most effective"

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A little off topic, but if anyone wants to know the method, there's an interesting pdf here http://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0610105

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Following on from your revelation I noticed that Bruce Schneier, who was mentioned a few pages earlier in this thread, did a mention of a joint paper by the said mentioned.

http://www.wired.com/politics/securi...tymatters_1213

I found the comment "The moral is that it takes only a small named database for someone to pry the anonymity off a much larger anonymous database." quite an interesting point. In a nutshell, if I have not misunderstood, the gist it seems is that if you can extract some identifying data from say from a blog or from in fact anywhere, you can apply this to a larger anonymous database and quite possibly identify the individual and their habits from this. The algorithms apparently used are fairly robust.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is one of the main reasons I have been writing to the ICO saying they should be supporting the public not allowing Phorm in any form on the ISPs.
Sadly the present ICO staff are either totallly lacking in vision of what can happen, lacking in any ability to understand or totally incompetant on technical issues.

BT management on the other hand shjould be able to understand hence the last remark for the ICO is inline or people in high places have accepted some phorm of gratification to see this through.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your rights are quite clear, as long as you are in a public place you can photograph anything you like. If a policeman or security guard attempts to confiscate your recordings they can be prosecuted for criminal damage.

http://www.urban75.org/photos/photog...d-the-law.html

Lots of cameras means lots of protection, if anyone starts harassing a photographer, have someone else film it with a video camera. I'd also say photograph anything that moves, make them squirm, give them a taste of what it is like to lose their privacy - even if it is just for a few seconds.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

tell them that everything will be fine because you'll blur out their faces later... 'honest guv'... but at least you'll still know their taste in clothing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just tell everyone it`s for happy slapping you tube ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hang on a minute. We shouldn't set ourselves up in opposition to people, it is the concept of privacy invasion we object to, not the shareholders of anything. And despite the legality of being free to photograph what one pleases, it is something that many would not welcome and that should be respected. Look, months of hard work have gone into this campaign and we don't want the demo to degenerate into a 'them versus us' confrontation. The demo is our public face. There are even BT shareholders amongst us.

The demo has to be orderly with the aim of attracting more support not making ordinary people feel uncomfortable. Being irresistibly reasonable (and right!) are much better tactics than a war of attrition which is why the debate here has attracted interest at the highest level.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally correct and if I could add, most shareholders are probably unaware of Phorm/WebWise and as such we should be trying to get them onside and we should definitely not be alienating them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't speak for that implementation but (in the event they ever manage to go live) widespread fuzzing of Phorms data would reduce it's potential value to advertisers. Generally I'd see that as a good thing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies, my comment was meant in jest to highlight the obvious parallels to webwise/phorm, not to suggest that we should take that course of action. I do agree that we should not be opposing shareholders and you sum it up perfectly with the following line...

"And despite the legality of being free to photograph what one pleases, it is something that many would not welcome and that should be respected."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No apology necessary, but thank you ;). I know that all (well, most) who contribute to this high quality thread share a common interest. We have a real chance of achieving something if we keep our heads and stay determined but rational. The demo could make a huge difference to our support.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:) Good to hear Tarka, and if anyone posing as a supporter tries stirring trouble/being confrontational I suggest everyone immediately distance yourself from that person