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-   -   Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712196)

nomadking 06-12-2023 18:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165960)
It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.

The Taliban were active in shielding Al Queda in Afghanistan in a way that Hamas aren’t in Gaza. Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban, or indeed the proxy war in the Ukraine/Russia disputed territory.
So Hamas are to be allowed to repeatedly launch "hit and run" attacks or launch rockets and then hide amongst civilians?
Here's an example of somebody supporting the actions of Hamas,

Quote:
An influencer who mockingly asked what side dishes should accompany an Israeli baby who was reportedly burned to death in an oven has been given a ten-month suspended jail sentence.
No indication of that being an atypical attitude of supporters of Hamas and their actions. That's the "nice" people we're talking about.

Pierre 06-12-2023 18:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165960)
It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.
I don’t think I am, Hamas are free to attack Israel…….oh hang on they do, they’ve fired 7,000 rockets since Oct 7th in addition to the 3,000 they fired on Oct 7th.

Hamas weren’t playing but the rules when they raped and directly targeted civilians. If they fire their rockets at Legitimate military targets in Israel and civilians are caught in the cross fire, they’d get a pass from me.

Quote:
Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban
I wouldn’t bet against that statement

Paul 06-12-2023 18:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36165896)
Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.
As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).

ianch99 06-12-2023 19:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165904)
you have asked the question several times, it's been answered several times. I'm not doing any handwringing, you're doing just fine by yourself.

It's war, you want the war to stop?

Then instead of demanding Israel stop their actions, go out and march, demanding that Hamas unconditionally surrender. All Hamas soldiers & leaders and should come out, lay down their weapons, release the remaining hostages and give Israel all of their arsenal so it can be destroyed.

Then Israel would stop.
I get it now. You are content for Israel to kill unlimited numbers of civilians in pursuit of Hamas. At least that is cleared up. I personally find this position indefensible on many levels but hey, it takes all sorts I suppose.

---------- Post added at 19:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36165992)
As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).
Yes, this is exactly the question I have been asking. In pursuit of the terrorists, how many dead & injured civilians is "too many"? Some are content to sanction an unlimited number but most people have more humanity than that.

I think this has gone too far. The UN, led by the US, should go in and establish safe zones that are, and are seen to be, Hamas free. This would provide a clear segregation and provide a place for people to live, with provision for food, water, power & medicines while the ongoing conflict plays out.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 19:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36165992)
As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).
Now we’re getting into it, what is the value of an innocent Palestinian life ?

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprin...an%20FINAL.pdf

Long but worth a read

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165919)
What actions had they taken against Gaza since their withdrawal in 2005 that wasn't in retaliation to Hamas aggression?
So, only aggression directed to Palestinians in Gaza counts ? Is that what we’re saying ?

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 19:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165993)
I get it now. You are content for Israel to kill unlimited numbers of civilians in pursuit of Hamas. At least that is cleared up. I personally find this position indefensible on many levels but hey, it takes all sorts I suppose.

---------- Post added at 19:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------



Yes, this is exactly the question I have been asking. In pursuit of the terrorists, how many dead & injured civilians is "too many"? Some are content to sanction an unlimited number but most people have more humanity than that.

I think this has gone too far. The UN, led by the US, should go in and establish safe zones that are, and are seen to be, Hamas free. This would provide a clear segregation and provide a place for people to live, with provision for food, water, power & medicines while the ongoing conflict plays out.


How will Hamas be eliminated?

jfman 06-12-2023 19:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166006)


How will Hamas be eliminated?
How will they be eliminated under the current trajectory, short of ethnic cleansing?

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 19:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
[QUOTE=Sephiroth;36166006]

How will Hamas be eliminated?[/QUOTE

That doesn’t give the IDF cart blanche. Whilst the use of human shields doesn’t prevent a target from being attacked they’re are a myriad of considerations that need to legally be taken into consideration before doing so.

Where is the evidence to support that Israel has done this? And them saying ‘we’ve done it’ isn’t evidence

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 20:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
[QUOTE=mrmistoffelees;36166011]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166006)


How will Hamas be eliminated?[/QUOTE

That doesn’t give the IDF cart blanche. Whilst the use of human shields doesn’t prevent a target from being attacked they’re are a myriad of considerations that need to legally be taken into consideration before doing so.

Where is the evidence to support that Israel has done this? And them saying ‘we’ve done it’ isn’t evidence
You and others rhetorically bleat about Israel's military mission and wholly dodge the question that must then arise. How else can Israel eliminate Hamas? That is the real question.

You lot are useless.

Pierre 06-12-2023 20:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165993)
I get it now. You are content for Israel to kill unlimited numbers of civilians in pursuit of Hamas. At least that is cleared up. I personally find this position indefensible on many levels but hey, it takes all sorts I suppose.
I didn’t say that, you just did.

jfman 06-12-2023 20:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166012)

You and others rhetorically bleat about Israel's military mission and wholly dodge the question that must then arise. How else can Israel eliminate Hamas? That is the real question.

You lot are useless.
The real question you’ve been ignoring throughout is whether the massacre of tens of thousands of civilians, razing to the ground entire communities and the destruction of hospitals, mosques and other infrastructure is a price worth paying for a goal that’s unachievable.

Pierre 06-12-2023 20:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165993)
establish safe zones that are, and are seen to be, Hamas free.
Seen to be, or actually are?

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 20:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
[QUOTE=Sephiroth;36166012]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166011)

You and others rhetorically bleat about Israel's military mission and wholly dodge the question that must then arise. How else can Israel eliminate Hamas? That is the real question.

You lot are useless.
Pointing out someone or a countries legal responsibilities doesn’t equate to me having to provide a the answer to the issue at hand.

I’d rather be useless yet possess a degree of empathy rather than be someone who thinks that objectives should be achieved without consideration of cost or impact

Other people thought like that eighty odd years ago, you would thought we would have learnt from it

Pierre 06-12-2023 20:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166002)
So, only aggression directed to Palestinians in Gaza counts ? Is that what we’re saying ?
The attack came from Gaza, Hamas is only in Gaza - it’s a legitimate question, that you haven’t answered.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 20:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166014)
The real question you’ve been ignoring throughout is whether the massacre of tens of thousands of civilians, razing to the ground entire communities and the destruction of hospitals, mosques and other infrastructure is a price worth paying for a goal that’s unachievable.
For argument's sake, let's grant you the point you are making and let's say that Israel reaches the same conclusion.

What should happen next ?

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 20:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166017)
The attack came from Gaza, Hamas is only in Gaza - it’s a legitimate question, that you haven’t answered.
Israeli aggression towards Palestinians doesn’t just occur in Gaza as long as it continues in other areas then that will give Hamas et all the other crackpot nut jobs an excuse to continue.

There are elements of the israeli population who have used this latest part of the conflict to increase land grabs

ianch99 06-12-2023 20:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166015)
Seen to be, or actually are?
Stop trolling. It is clear what I said.

jfman 06-12-2023 20:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166018)
For argument's sake, let's grant you the point you are making and let's say that Israel reaches the same conclusion.

What should happen next ?
Ongoing, persistent, strategic attacks on Hamas people and infrastructure.

This is the same Israel that hunted down the terrorists down after the Munich Olympics, and hunted down Nazis for decades. They know how to play the long game. They’re experts.

ianch99 06-12-2023 20:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166006)


How will Hamas be eliminated?
Without the mass slaughter of thousands of civilians.

Pierre 06-12-2023 20:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166019)
Israeli aggression towards Palestinians doesn’t just occur in Gaza as long as it continues in other areas then that will give Hamas et all the other crackpot nut jobs an excuse to continue.

There are elements of the israeli population who have used this latest part of the conflict to increase land grabs
Then if the attack came from the West Bank you’d have a point, but it came from Gaza, which has effectively been a defacto independent Palestinian state since 2005.

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166020)
Stop trolling. It is clear what I said.
Which is it then?

ianch99 06-12-2023 20:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166021)
Ongoing, persistent, strategic attacks on Hamas people and infrastructure.

This is the same Israel that hunted down the terrorists down after the Munich Olympics, and hunted down Nazis for decades. They know how to play the long game. They’re experts.
Exactly this. There are other ways, the long game as you put it. However that does not present Israel the opportunity to bomb Gaza back to the stone age and try and force the remaining Palestinians to flee. After all, what are they returning to? A lot of what they left behind in northern Gaza is rubble.

Ethnic cleaning has always been a Likud priority as evidenced in the West Bank and this opportunity in Gaza was too good to miss.

Pierre 06-12-2023 20:40
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166022)
Without the mass slaughter of thousands of civilians.
Well that’s already incorrect.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 20:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166019)
Israeli aggression towards Palestinians doesn’t just occur in Gaza as long as it continues in other areas then that will give Hamas et all the other crackpot nut jobs an excuse to continue.

There are elements of the israeli population who have used this latest part of the conflict to increase land grabs
To draw a parallel:

In 1938, Germany was given the go ahead to seize the Sudentenland, which they'd settled with Germans. This gave them the courage to invade Poland and we all knew what followed.

We went to war with Germany and ultimately zapped them with all the collateral damage (on both sides) that ensued.

War is war and none of you can suggest how Hams can be eliminated other than linking their barbarism to finding a solution for the West Bank.

If the West Bank Palestinians took up arms against Israel in frustration of the behaviour of Israel's Ultras (seizing land in the West Bank and other crimes), there would be some sympathy for the Palestinians unless they crossed the red line that Hamas chose to cross.

There's the difference and your linkage to the West Bank situation is a distraction.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 20:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166025)
Then if the attack came from the West Bank you’d have a point, but it came from Gaza, which has effectively been a defacto independent Palestinian state since 2005.

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------



Which is it then?
I think we’re at crossed purposes but agreeing?

Hamas in Gaza will use Israel’s aggression in other areas as just another reason to continue. It’s all intrinsically interlinked.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166031)
To draw a parallel:

In 1938, Germany was given the go ahead to seize the Sudentenland, which they'd settled with Germans. This gave them the courage to invade Poland and we all knew what followed.

We went to war with Germany and ultimately zapped them with all the collateral damage (on both sides) that ensued.

War is war and none of you can suggest how Hams can be eliminated other than linking their barbarism to finding a solution for the West Bank.

If the West Bank Palestinians took up arms against Israel in frustration of the behaviour of Israel's Ultras (seizing land in the West Bank and other crimes), there would be some sympathy for the Palestinians unless they crossed the red line that Hamas chose to cross.

There's the difference and your linkage to the West Bank situation is a distraction.
Well for one it’s not just Israeli ultras seizing land in the West Bank it’s IDF reservists with the backing of the other security services.

Secondly a lot of the rules for armed conflict were born from ww2

By your logic we can only ask questions if we’re able to provide answers would pretty much put and end to science and philosophy

War may be war but it has rules and the actions of one party don’t justify the actions of others

1andrew1 06-12-2023 20:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166031)

War is war and none of you can suggest how Hams can be eliminated other than linking their barbarism to finding a solution for the West Bank.
jfman has:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166021)
Ongoing, persistent, strategic attacks on Hamas people and infrastructure.

This is the same Israel that hunted down the terrorists down after the Munich Olympics, and hunted down Nazis for decades. They know how to play the long game. They’re experts.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 21:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166032)
I think we’re at crossed purposes but agreeing?

Hamas in Gaza will use Israel’s aggression in other areas as just another reason to continue. It’s all intrinsically interlinked.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:45 ----------



Well for one it’s not just Israeli ultras seizing land in the West Bank it’s IDF reservists with the backing of the other security services.

Secondly a lot of the rules for armed conflict were born from ww2

By your logic we can only ask questions if we’re able to provide answers would pretty much put and end to science and philosophy

War may be war but it has rules and the actions of one party don’t justify the actions of others
Jeez - you do spout a lot of crap. A deflection in this case.

When one party butchers the other, expect retaliation - and that has consequences.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 21:16
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Sephi,

Since you seem to want answers provided let me ask you a direct question.

How many Palestinian lives being lost is a justifiable amount for Israel to destroy Hamas ?

Or, are you useless too ?

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166038)
Jeez - you do spout a lot of crap. A deflection in this case.

When one party butchers the other, expect retaliation - and that has consequences.
Indeed & perhaps I do but I’m still significantly behind you in the word salad stakes.

Pierre 06-12-2023 21:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166039)
How many Palestinian lives being lost is a justifiable amount for Israel to destroy Hamas ?
It’s a fake question. You, Ian, Layla Moran on Question Time.

It’s a gotcha question, it serves no purpose other than to try and make the questioner look superior.

How many European lives was a justifiable amount to defeat the Nazis?

20 million?

Nobody can make the assessment.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 21:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166043)
It’s a fake question. You, Ian, Layla Moran on Question Time.

It’s a gotcha question, it serves no purpose other than to try and make the questioner look superior.

How many European lives was a justifiable amount to defeat the Nazis?

20 million?

Nobody can make the assessment.
Military planners make that decision everyday be that in exercise or in an actual theatre of war. So nobody isn’t quite correct.

I’m not trying to make myself look superior in anyway shape or form. if Sephi wants to call people useless because they can’t answer the questions raised then Sephi can either give an answer to my question or accept to being just as useless as the rest of us.

So then Sephi my old mucker, which is it ?

jfman 06-12-2023 21:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166043)
It’s a fake question. You, Ian, Layla Moran on Question Time.

It’s a gotcha question, it serves no purpose other than to try and make the questioner look superior.

How many European lives was a justifiable amount to defeat the Nazis?

20 million?

Nobody can make the assessment.
It’s not a gotcha question it’s the one the IDF ask themselves every time they launch an air strike on a mosque, on a hospital, on a refugee camp. As yourself 12,000 times in about two months and add them all up.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 22:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166039)
Sephi,

Since you seem to want answers provided let me ask you a direct question.

How many Palestinian lives being lost is a justifiable amount for Israel to destroy Hamas ?

Or, are you useless too ?

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------



Indeed & perhaps I do but I’m still significantly behind you in the word salad stakes.
I'll tell you what's wrong with this question: it puts the cart before the horse which is why it can't be answered. Hamas attacked Israel brutally and Israel retaliated.

You lot are asking the wrong question and being quite illogical.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 22:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166047)
[COLOR="Blue"]I'll tell you what's wrong with this question: it puts the cart before the horse which is why it can't be answered. Hamas attacked Israel brutally and Israel retaliated.

You lot are asking the wrong question and being quite illogical.
/COLOR]
Nope, you’re not weaselling out of it. Either give a number to the question I asked or accept you’re just as useless as me.

To paraphrase the great Dr. Cox

It’s you, Sephi. Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

jfman 06-12-2023 22:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166047)
I'll tell you what's wrong with this question: it puts the cart before the horse which is why it can't be answered. Hamas attacked Israel brutally and Israel retaliated.

You lot are asking the wrong question and being quite illogical.
And Israel has been brutally slaughtering Palestinians for decades. The “start date” of October 7 is completely arbitrary, for no other reason to attempt to give some legitimacy to Israeli actions that if they were against non-Muslims or non-Arabs would unquestionably universally condemned. Politicians were unwavering in their condemnation of Putin for killing less civilians in a military operation that has gone on ten times longer.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 22:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166048)
Nope, you’re not weaselling out of it. Either give a number to the question I asked or accept you’re just as useless as me.

To paraphrase the great Dr. Cox

It’s you, Sephi. Hypocrisy, thy name is you.
I'm weaselling out of nothing. Ask a question that can be answered and I'll try - like I answered Roughbeast.

ianch99 06-12-2023 22:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166039)
Sephi,

Since you seem to want answers provided let me ask you a direct question.

How many Palestinian lives being lost is a justifiable amount for Israel to destroy Hamas ?

Or, are you useless too ?

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------



Indeed & perhaps I do but I’m still significantly behind you in the word salad stakes.
You are wasting your time. I have asked this question a number of times. They won't answer it because it does not matter to them. They are content with any number.

Pierre 06-12-2023 22:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166045)
Military planners make that decision everyday be that in exercise or in an actual theatre of war. So nobody isn’t quite correct.
News flash……nobody on this forum is a military planner.

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166046)
It’s not a gotcha question it’s the one the IDF ask themselves every time they launch an air strike on a mosque, on a hospital, on a refugee camp.
Great, ask the question on the IDF version of Cable Forum then.

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166051)
You are wasting your time. I have asked this question a number of times. They won't answer it because it does not matter to them. They are content with any number.
What’s your number?

ianch99 06-12-2023 22:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166049)
And Israel has been brutally slaughtering Palestinians for decades. The “start date” of October 7 is completely arbitrary, for no other reason to attempt to give some legitimacy to Israeli actions that if they were against non-Muslims or non-Arabs would unquestionably universally condemned. Politicians were unwavering in their condemnation of Putin for killing less civilians in a military operation that has gone on ten times longer.
You make a good link with Ukraine. When Ukrainian civilians were killed by Russian forces, there was anger here and in the West, rightly so, and moves to support the defence of Ukraine and the punishment of Putin and his regime.

Maybe those in Gaza are just the wrong sort of civilians? The wrong sort of children?

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166052)
What’s your number?
Less than 500. What is yours?

Pierre 06-12-2023 23:06
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166055)
You make a good link with Ukraine. When Ukrainian civilians were killed by Russian forces, there was anger here and in the West, rightly so
When Israeli and other nationals were killed by Hamas forces, there was anger here and other places that weren’t Jew haters, rightly so.


Quote:
and moves to support the defence of Ukraine and the punishment of Putin and his regime.

And moves to support the defence of Israel and the punishment of Hamas and their jihadi death cult………………

Oh sorry no, that didn’t happen, Israel were condemned for defending themselves and people publicly supported Hamas and objected to their punishment.


Quote:
Maybe those in Gaza are just the wrong sort of civilians? The wrong sort of children?
Maybe those in Israel are just the wrong sort of civilians? The wrong sort of children? …………the wrong sort of people. How many races have had multiple genocides inflicted upon them. Jews have been under the threat of eradication/genocide at least half a dozen times in history.

It’s always safe ground to attack a Jew, as we see now.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166055)

Less than 500. What is yours?
Zero, Please don’t avoid the swear filter. (Chris)

But I’m not in control of anything.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 23:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166051)
You are wasting your time. I have asked this question a number of times. They won't answer it because it does not matter to them. They are content with any number.
I'm far from content because it's an awful situation. But of one thing I'm certain: Hamas needs to be eradicated (just like the Nazis were) and Israel is the only country that's going to do it.

mrmistoffelees 07-12-2023 08:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166050)
I'm weaselling out of nothing. Ask a question that can be answered and I'll try - like I answered Roughbeast.
Oh yes you are, you could quite easily answer the question but that would pinpoint exactly just how little disregard you have for innocent life.

---------- Post added at 08:17 ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166052)
News flash……nobody on this forum is a military planner.[COLOR="Silver"]
You didn’t say nobody on this forum you said nobody

Details matter…..

1andrew1 07-12-2023 08:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166059)
I'm far from content because it's an awful situation. But of one thing I'm certain: Hamas needs to be eradicated (just like the Nazis were) and Israel is the only country that's going to do it.
Not in the way they're going about things at the moment they won't. As jfman explained, Israel is adept at playing the long game. That more effective approach has been jettisoned for political reasons.

---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166050)
I'm weaselling out of nothing. Ask a question that can be answered and I'll try - like I answered Roughbeast.
The answer for you is at least 16,000 as you're happy for the IDF to carry on as is.

ianch99 07-12-2023 10:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166057)
When Israeli and other nationals were killed by Hamas forces, there was anger here and other places that weren’t Jew haters, rightly so.





And moves to support the defence of Israel and the punishment of Hamas and their jihadi death cult………………

Oh sorry no, that didn’t happen, Israel were condemned for defending themselves and people publicly supported Hamas and objected to their punishment.




Maybe those in Israel are just the wrong sort of civilians? The wrong sort of children? …………the wrong sort of people. How many races have had multiple genocides inflicted upon them. Jews have been under the threat of eradication/genocide at least half a dozen times in history.

It’s always safe ground to attack a Jew, as we see now.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------



Zero, Please don’t avoid the swear filter (Chris)

But I’m not in control of anything.
Proof you do not live in the real world.

"But I’m not in control of anything." Don't be such a child. You endorse the killing of civilians, your posts have confirmed this. You are fixated on the belief that Israel must be allowed to revenge the Hamas attack literally at any cost. Most peope I would argue have more humanity that this, you do not.

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166059)
I'm far from content because it's an awful situation. But of one thing I'm certain: Hamas needs to be eradicated (just like the Nazis were) and Israel is the only country that's going to do it.
You are doing a Corbyn here :)

"I'm far from content" ... but we need to continue the killing.

Chris 07-12-2023 11:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Can we all calm down and be civil please. Also:

1. Stop avoiding the swear filter by deliberate mis-spelling. It makes work for the team, which makes us tetchy. And you do not want that.

2. If someone’s post is offensive and breaks the site’s rules please report it but *don’t* then go and quote it, you just end up doubling our workload, which makes us tetchy. Etc.

Pierre 07-12-2023 12:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36166075)

You didn’t say nobody on this forum you said nobody

Details matter…..
They do, and I said it because it's a subjective assessment. Ian is happy with somewhere i the region of 1-500 innocent people dying.

I'm content with zero.

---------- Post added at 12:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166087)
"But I’m not in control of anything." Don't be such a child
But I'm not in control

Quote:
You endorse the killing of civilians, your posts have confirmed this
Have they?

Quote:
You are fixated on the belief that Israel must be allowed to revenge the Hamas attack literally at any cost. Most peope I would argue have more humanity that this, you do not.
Israel is allowed to defend it's people.

Quote:

"I'm far from content" ... but we need to continue the killing.
We? I'm not Jewish or Israeli

ianch99 07-12-2023 12:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
It is interesting to see replies on this thread who are deliberately pivoting the criticism of the Israeli Government and it's current actions to "attacking Jews" i.e. Antisemitism. This is a well worn path for those wishing to deflect valid criticism.

TheDaddy 07-12-2023 12:20
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166099)
They do, and I said it because it's a subjective assessment. Ian is happy with somewhere i the region of 1-500 innocent people dying.
Yawn, he's not said he's happy, the relentless trolling is just dull


Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166103)
It is interesting to see replies on this thread who are deliberately pivoting the criticism of the Israeli Government and it's current actions to "attacking Jews" i.e. Antisemitism. This is a well worn path for those wishing to deflect valid criticism.
Of course, it's Israeli government policy to equate criticism of them with antisemitism

jfman 07-12-2023 12:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166103)
It is interesting to see replies on this thread who are deliberately pivoting the criticism of the Israeli Government and it's current actions to "attacking Jews" i.e. Antisemitism. This is a well worn path for those wishing to deflect valid criticism.
It’s always the same. They have nothing but straw men. Believing Palestinians have a right to live in peace is “supporting Hamas”, now its hiding behind false claims of anti-Semitism. Even the belief that Palestinian lives are of equal value to Israeli ones is (ludicrously) held up as antisemitic by the Zionist regime.

ianch99 07-12-2023 12:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Meanwhile in the West Bank, we see continued ethnic cleaning sponsored by the Likud government:

Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages

Quote:
A few nights ago, the school in Khirbet Zanuta, a small Palestinian village in the hills south of Hebron, was destroyed along with most of the houses, by a bulldozer.

Its tracks lay fresh and undisturbed in the sand when we arrived. The village was empty as its population of about 200 Palestinians left around a month ago, after sustained pressure and threats from armed and aggressive Jewish settlers who live in nearby outposts that are illegal under both Israeli and international law.

A twisted metal sign lies in the rubble of the school in Khirbet Zanuta. In bold black letters it reads "Humanitarian Support to Palestinians at risk of forcible transfer in the West Bank". The sign records the donors who gave money to the project. The European Union was the lead donor and, among a panel of European development agencies, is also the coat of arms of the British royal family over the words British Consulate-General Jerusalem.

Nadav Weiman came with the BBC to the village. He is a former Israeli special forces soldier who is now an activist with Breaking the Silence, a group of former combatants who campaign against Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories. Nadav believes that Jewish settlers, the most militant of whom are known by name to local Palestinians, were once again flouting the law with the police and army.

"They're demolishing Palestinian villages, beating up Palestinian farmers, stealing their olives, trying to open a third front, an eastern front against the Palestinians in the West Bank. Why? Because they want the land without Palestinians."

jfman 07-12-2023 12:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166107)
Meanwhile in the West Bank, we see continued ethnic cleaning sponsored by the Likud government:

Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages
I look forward to the universal condemnation of this. I invite anyone who can’t condemn it to explain why.

Pierre 07-12-2023 13:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166105)
Yawn, he's not said he's happy, the relentless trolling is just dull
Fair enough, I remove "happy" from the record and replace with "acceptable"

Quote:
What’s your number?

Less than 500. What is yours?


---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166108)
I look forward to the universal condemnation of this. I invite anyone who can’t condemn it to explain why.
I will happily condemn this action.

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 15:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 


It’s easy to be appalled as some of you demonstrate. Then you ask questions that are impossible to answer and then hold it against those who point that out.

Turning this on its head and suppose Israel’s response to the Atrocity was to do nothing? That would have been the only way to avoid what’s happening. So no response was a non-starter.

Now move forward: to eliminate Hamas, what should Israel have done?

It really is pointless bleating on about the civilian deaths other than the fact of how sad it is.



jfman 07-12-2023 15:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166119)


It’s easy to be appalled as some of you demonstrate. Then you ask questions that are impossible to answer and then hold it against those who point that out.

Turning this on its head and suppose Israel’s response to the Atrocity was to do nothing? That would have been the only way to avoid what’s happening. So no response was a non-starter.

Now move forward: to eliminate Hamas, what should Israel have done?

It really is pointless bleating on about the civilian deaths other than the fact of how sad it is.


You’ve been told - terrorism as an idea or a concept can’t be eliminated. As commuters who jump onto major transport infrastructure in any major city know.

The “objective” is the straw man at the centre of your entire argument.

There’s a huge range of methods which Israel could strike at the heart of Hamas capabilities and its leaders over a longer term than razing Gaza to the ground in 60 days.

We reject the entire premise so grounding your questions firmly within it is flawed.

ianch99 07-12-2023 15:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166119)


It’s easy to be appalled as some of you demonstrate. Then you ask questions that are impossible to answer and then hold it against those who point that out.

Turning this on its head and suppose Israel’s response to the Atrocity was to do nothing? That would have been the only way to avoid what’s happening. So no response was a non-starter.

Now move forward: to eliminate Hamas, what should Israel have done?

It really is pointless bleating on about the civilian deaths other than the fact of how sad it is.


The questions are only impossible for you, and a select few, to answer it seems. Others are quite happy to confirm that killing 1000's of civilians and turning their communities to rubble pursuit of Hamas is wrong, on many levels.

I, and others, have said a number of alternate approaches that could have been taken but to be fair, you don't seem to want that discussion. Any ideas would be shot down without any serious attempt to engage, leaving just the current approach that is very "sad".

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166112)
Fair enough, I remove "happy" from the record and replace with "acceptable"
You seem to be say everything, yet know nothing. Living in the real world, I know what any military action even those carefully planned & executed, especially in this part of the world, will result in some casualties. Only a child would not understand this.

However sanctioning, as you do, the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians is a world a way from this.

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 16:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166126)
The questions are only impossible for you, and a select few, to answer it seems. Others are quite happy to confirm that killing 1000's of civilians and turning their communities to rubble pursuit of Hamas is wrong, on many levels.

<SNIP>.

The question that you and jfman have been putting is "how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?" . That's very different from the pivot you've made in your response above.

Also you try to hide behind the "alternate approaches" you say you've suggested. None of them even touch my question which is:

Given the barbaric attack on Israel by Hamas on 07-Oct, when 1200 innocent people were butchered, what should Israel's response have been? How should they eliminate Hamas?

Pierre 07-12-2023 16:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166126)
You seem to be say everything, yet know nothing. Living in the real world, I know what any military action even those carefully planned & executed, especially in this part of the world, will result in some casualties. Only a child would not understand this.

However sanctioning, as you do, the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians is a world a way from this.
I haven't sanctioned anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165993)
In pursuit of the terrorists, how many dead & injured civilians is "too many"?
I say one........ you say anything up to 500.

Got it.

Maggy 07-12-2023 20:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Neither side is innocent in this and neither of them has any right to claim moral integrity.I also dislike the idea that we have to choose a side.

The world should NOT be picking a side in this.It should be condemning both of them and standing up to them and insisting that they stop making war on complete innocents.

I'm actually quite fearful that the world is on the verge of a possible conflagration that will suck us all in.

TheDaddy 07-12-2023 20:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36166152)
Neither side is innocent in this and neither of them has any right to claim moral integrity.I also dislike the idea that we have to choose a side.

The world should NOT be picking a side in this.It should be condemning both of them and standing up to them and insisting that they stop making war on complete innocents.

I'm actually quite fearful that the world is on the verge of a possible conflagration that will suck us all in.
Actually I'd say most Palestinians and most Israelis are innocent, they may partiality/ tacitly support the government/ regime but I'd imagine most just want to get on with life with as little trouble as possible, like the rest of us really, especially the children, as ever it's the extremists and nutters ruining it for everyone else

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 21:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36166152)
Neither side is innocent in this and neither of them has any right to claim moral integrity.I also dislike the idea that we have to choose a side.

The world should NOT be picking a side in this.It should be condemning both of them and standing up to them and insisting that they stop making war on complete innocents.

I'm actually quite fearful that the world is on the verge of a possible conflagration that will suck us all in.

Quote:
The world should NOT be picking a side in this. It should be condemning both of them and standing up to them and insisting that they stop making war on complete innocents.

It's difficult not to see value in your remark. But ....

Condemning the Ultras in the West Bank for their disgusting behaviour toward Palestinians doe not carry the same weight as condemning Hamas for their butchery, rape and murder.

And how should the world stand up to Hamas? The world generally finds it easy to condemn Israel.

Your "conflagration" point is interesting. There's no shortage of puppet-masters and malevolent actors who regard Israel and the USA as evil Satans. Theyt've already got conflagration going in Gaza.



---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166153)
Actually I'd say most Palestinians and most Israelis are innocent, they may partiality/ tacitly support the government/ regime but I'd imagine most just want to get on with life with as little trouble as possible, like the rest of us really, especially the children, as ever it's the extremists and nutters ruining it for everyone else
Trouble is that the Ultras number at least 1 million and their "innocence" is rather narrow.

ianch99 07-12-2023 21:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166133)

The question that you and jfman have been putting is "how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?" . That's very different from the pivot you've made in your response above.

Also you try to hide behind the "alternate approaches" you say you've suggested. None of them even touch my question which is:

Given the barbaric attack on Israel by Hamas on 07-Oct, when 1200 innocent people were butchered, what should Israel's response have been? How should they eliminate Hamas?
There is no pivot, you are just dancing around the problem. I think that, like other (adults) on this forum, that 10,000+ civilian deaths are too many. You, by sanctioning the current IDF campaign, do not. We need a ceasefire and the UN, led by the US, should go in and create safe havens for the displaced population so they can literally live some form of a life.

You use emotive words to somehow validate the current IDF response. Should I use phrases like "babies crushed under tons of rubble, children having torn limbs amputated without anaesthetic, premature infants dying in incubators without power, and so on." due to IDF bombing & shelling? It works both ways.

What should Israel's response have been? It should have been considered, measured and surgical. It should have used world opinion to help pursue Hamas leadership & funding, in the same way Putin was sanction after invading Ukraine. It should have stopped the illegal ethnic cleansing on the West Bank and removed the settlements installed over the last 20 years.

By doing this it would have shown, like was done in NI, that there is another way to violence and at the same would disenfranchise the appeal of Hamas and restore momentum in the more centrist Palestinian & wider pan-Arab factions.

jfman 07-12-2023 22:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166133)

The question that you and jfman have been putting is "how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?" . That's very different from the pivot you've made in your response above.

Also you try to hide behind the "alternate approaches" you say you've suggested. None of them even touch my question which is:

Given the barbaric attack on Israel by Hamas on 07-Oct, when 1200 innocent people were butchered, what should Israel's response have been? How should they eliminate Hamas?
There’s no hiding behind anything in pointing out that the daily massacre of women and children in Gaza is a wholly disproportionate response to a terrorist act.

By being unable to understand this concept - or unwilling to humanise Palestinian life in the same way everyone is encouraged to does in order to draw out emotive responses for Israeli life (rape, beheadings, etc) - and unable to state a limit leads ultimately to the tacit approval of unlimited barbarity by the Israeli state up to and including the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

Once again you put up the straw man of eliminating Hamas. As worthwhile a concept in the discussion as a manned mission to Mars.

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 22:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166163)
There’s no hiding behind anything in pointing out that the daily massacre of women and children in Gaza is a wholly disproportionate response to a terrorist act.

By being unable to understand this concept - or unwilling to humanise Palestinian life in the same way everyone is encouraged to does in order to draw out emotive responses for Israeli life (rape, beheadings, etc) - and unable to state a limit leads ultimately to the tacit approval of unlimited barbarity by the Israeli state up to and including the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

Once again you put up the straw man of eliminating Hamas. As worthwhile a concept in the discussion as a manned mission to Mars.
This is where you let yourself down. For obvious reasons that I do not need to state.

Pierre 07-12-2023 22:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166161)
I think that, like other (adults) on this forum
debatable

Quote:
that 10,000+ civilian deaths are too many.
I think one civilian death is too many, you don’t.

Quote:
You, by sanctioning the current IDF campaign, do not. We need a ceasefire and the UN, led by the US, should go in and create safe havens for the displaced population so they can literally live some form of a life.
He, nor I, or anyone else on here, has “sanctioned” anything. You can only sanction something if you have control over it.

Quote:
You use emotive words to somehow validate the current IDF response. Should I use phrases like "babies crushed under tons of rubble, children having torn limbs amputated without anaesthetic, premature infants dying in incubators without power, and so on." due to IDF bombing & shelling? It works both ways.
You can, you just did.

Quote:
What should Israel's response have been? It should have been considered, measured and surgical.
it was considered, it was measured, surgical is an interesting one you’d have to explain in your vast military experience what you mean by that.

Quote:
It should have used world opinion to help pursue Hamas leadership & funding, in the same way Putin was sanction after invading Ukraine.
What sanctions would you suggest? Cutting power, water, closing crossings to stop imports/ exports……………

Quote:
It should have stopped the illegal ethnic cleansing on the West Bank and removed the settlements installed over the last 20 years.
The West Bank is a problem and I don’t agree with Israel’s actions in the West Bank, but the West Bank is a separate issue to Gaza.

Quote:
By doing this it would have shown, like was done in NI, that there is another way to violence and at the same would disenfranchise the appeal of Hamas and restore momentum in the more centrist Palestinian & wider pan-Arab factions.
N.I. Can in no way be correlated or compared to this situation at any level.

---------- Post added at 22:33 ---------- Previous post was at 22:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166163)
the straw man of eliminating Hamas
Eliminating Hamas, or at the very least nullifying them so that they are no longer a threat, is not a straw man, it’s a valid objective. How that objective is achieved is very much up for discussion

jfman 07-12-2023 22:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166164)
This is where you let yourself down. For obvious reasons that I do not need to state.
I’d prefer you stated them in all truth. There’s nothing obvious about it.

A cursory glance around the world sees terror group after terror group rise up from the smouldering ashes of their ancestors (metaphorically and literally). There’s always people with an axe to grind and always someone willing to fund it.

Israel - by playing fast and loose with the “international rules based order” - endangers itself, Jews around the world, America and it’s allies. For a man who sees danger in small boats, the ramifications should be obvious to you.

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166166)
Eliminating Hamas, or at the very least nullifying them so that they are no longer a threat, is not a straw man, it’s a valid objective. How that objective is achieved is very much up for discussion
There’s nuance between eliminating and nullifying. The latter is very much achievable but it’s as much about defensive capabilities as offensive. It can certainly be achieved by an alternate means.

Pierre 07-12-2023 22:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166168)
There’s nuance between eliminating and nullifying. The latter is very much achievable but it’s as much about defensive capabilities as offensive. It can certainly be achieved by an alternate means.
Possibly, but I’m not……and I don’t think anyone else on this forum is……qualified to advise the Israeli government and intelligence services how to achieve it and by what means.

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 23:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166168)
I’d prefer you stated them in all truth. There’s nothing obvious about it.

A cursory glance around the world sees terror group after terror group rise up from the smouldering ashes of their ancestors (metaphorically and literally). There’s always people with an axe to grind and always someone willing to fund it.

Israel - by playing fast and loose with the “international rules based order” - endangers itself, Jews around the world, America and it’s allies. For a man who sees danger in small boats, the ramifications should be obvious to you.

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------



There’s nuance between eliminating and nullifying. The latter is very much achievable but it’s as much about defensive capabilities as offensive. It can certainly be achieved by an alternate means.

I see the real possibility that the same types as Hamas are entering the UK via the small boats.

On your final paragraph, remember that Israel reacted with justifiable fury to the unjustified butchering of 1200 people by Hamas. As I've pointed out the alternative to the civilian casualties was no response. Is that what you're putting forward?

jfman 07-12-2023 23:12
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166172)

I see the real possibility that the same types as Hamas are entering the UK via the small boats.

On your final paragraph, remember that Israel reacted with justifiable fury to the unjustified butchering of 1200 people by Hamas. As I've pointed out the alternative to the civilian casualties was no response. Is that what you're putting forward?
Once again you persist with the flawed binary of what we see now vs no response. Something that you’ve been told on many occasions.

---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36166171)
Possibly, but I’m not……and I don’t think anyone else on this forum is……qualified to advise the Israeli government and intelligence services how to achieve it and by what means.
I doubt anyone is qualified but if they’re pissing all over the “international rules based order” and committing acts that look closer to ethnic cleansing than strategic targeting of Hamas and it’s infrastructure (an organisation of a mere 20,000) then it’s everyone’s prerogative if they wish to comment from their armchair as (almost) everyone did when Putin invaded Ukraine.

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 23:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166174)
Once again you persist with the flawed binary of what we see now vs no response. Something that you’ve been told on many occasions.
.... by people who cannot say what Israel's response should have been.

TheDaddy 07-12-2023 23:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166176)
.... by people who cannot say what Israel's response should have been.
I told you what they should've done imho weeks ago and you called it pie in the sky and then guess what happened a few days after that, Antony Blinken repeated several of my points in speech, problem with what I said though was it may have led to a lasting peace and two state solution so it's obviously off the table for both of the extremist factions

Sephiroth 07-12-2023 23:28
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166177)
I told you what they should've done imho weeks ago and you called it pie in the sky and then guess what happened a few days after that, Antony Blinken repeated several of my points in speech, problem with what I said though was it may have led to a lasting peace and two state solution so it's obviously off the table for both of the extremist factions
Blinken/Schminken. For the 2-state solution, there's a lot of getting past the fanatical Ultras to do. Utter pie in the sky from both of you.

And how does that apply to the facts have occurred on 07-October?

Actually, what Blinken is on about is "the day after the day after tomorrow" - when Israel's war with Hamas is over,, Abbas takes over in Gaza, and pressure is brought to bear on Israel to deal fairly with the Palestinians. Pigs will fly.

Pierre 07-12-2023 23:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166174)
acts that look closer to ethnic cleansing than strategic targeting of Hamas
Well that would have to be proven.




Quote:
and it’s infrastructure (an organisation of a mere 20,000) then it’s everyone’s prerogative if they wish to comment from their armchair
size does matter….it seems.


Quote:
as (almost) everyone did when Putin invaded Ukraine.
“Experts sir……thousands of them”

1andrew1 07-12-2023 23:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166176)
.... by people who cannot say what Israel's response should have been.
I'm confused as jfman has told you what Israel's response should be.

Paul 08-12-2023 02:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Who, other than Israel, has the right to decide what their response should be ?

Certainly not anyone on this forum.

TheDaddy 08-12-2023 04:16
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166182)
Who, other than Israel, has the right to decide what their response should be ?

Certainly not anyone on this forum.
Responses have been demanded on occasions to numerous to mention to justify what Israel is doing under the banner of what else can they do but when given they're dismissed as pie in the sky even when the US Secretary of State echos similar and he is someone who will have a big say in what happens and when it does, that's pie in the sky too :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 04:16 ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166178)
Blinken/Schminken. For the 2-state solution, there's a lot of getting past the fanatical Ultras to do. Utter pie in the sky from both of you.

And how does that apply to the facts have occurred on 07-October?

Actually, what Blinken is on about is "the day after the day after tomorrow" - when Israel's war with Hamas is over,, Abbas takes over in Gaza, and pressure is brought to bear on Israel to deal fairly with the Palestinians. Pigs will fly.
If they'd done it before there may well not have been an October 7th, Blinken also put in place sanctions to go after the money and he said he was going to cut hamas out of the aid chain as well as Abbas etc basically everything I said, with one extra, they are sanctioning Israeli settler groups and individuals which I think is a good if symbolic gesture.

Oh no not the fanatical unltras, I'm sure the IDF is shitting their pants at the prospect of going up against the gravy seals, I seem to remember the fanatical Ultras not doing much when the gaza settlements were pulled down all those years ago, I did always wonder what those settlements were doing in such a small area of land anyway, not enough room to swing a dead terrorist/ dead child so we'll stick some ideological settlements on there too for good measure, just to ramp up the tension

jfman 08-12-2023 05:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36166182)
Who, other than Israel, has the right to decide what their response should be ?

Certainly not anyone on this forum.
Might as well close the thread then I guess if we can’t comment on the deaths of thousands of Palestinian women and children and describe it as excessive.

There won’t be anything else happening for the foreseeable future.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 08:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166184)
Responses have been demanded on occasions to numerous to mention to justify what Israel is doing under the banner of what else can they do but when given they're dismissed as pie in the sky even when the US Secretary of State echos similar and he is someone who will have a big say in what happens and when it does, that's pie in the sky too :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 04:16 ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 ----------



If they'd done it before there may well not have been an October 7th, Blinken also put in place sanctions to go after the money and he said he was going to cut hamas out of the aid chain as well as Abbas etc basically everything I said, with one extra, they are sanctioning Israeli settler groups and individuals which I think is a good if symbolic gesture.

Oh no not the fanatical unltras, I'm sure the IDF is shitting their pants at the prospect of going up against the gravy seals, I seem to remember the fanatical Ultras not doing much when the gaza settlements were pulled down all those years ago, I did always wonder what those settlements were doing in such a small area of land anyway, not enough room to swing a dead terrorist/ dead child so we'll stick some ideological settlements on there too for good measure, just to ramp up the tension
What are you on about?

It's easy for Blinken to pontificate. He does have some levers in terms of aid that the US can provide to Israel. But there are delicate balances here because Iran is the dark shadow in the background who want Israel to be erased. Btw, I've no problem with the symbolic gesture made by Blinken against the Ultra settlers, albeit no more than a gesture. The Ultras need to be dealt with but at 1 million strong, that's nigh on impossible without military action by Israel.

With regard to the second phrase I've highlighted in red, you've really shown yourself up. Your sentiment seems to include a Palestinian tipping point of 'enough is enough' - let's fight Israel. But the barbarity of Hamas has no justification. You might as well be one of the 300,000.

jfman 08-12-2023 09:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166197)
What are you on about?

It's easy for Blinken to pontificate. He does have some levers in terms of aid that the US can provide to Israel. But there are delicate balances here because Iran is the dark shadow in the background who want Israel to be erased. Btw, I've no problem with the symbolic gesture made by Blinken against the Ultra settlers, albeit no more than a gesture. The Ultras need to be dealt with but at 1 million strong, that's nigh on impossible without military action by Israel.

With regard to the second phrase I've highlighted in red, you've really shown yourself up. Your sentiment seems to include a Palestinian tipping point of 'enough is enough' - let's fight Israel. But the barbarity of Hamas has no justification. You might as well be one of the 300,000.
It’s quite something to dismiss the highest level Jew in American politics simply because he recognises there is a gap between what Israel should be doing and reality on the ground.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 10:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166200)
It’s quite something to dismiss the highest level Jew in American politics simply because he recognises there is a gap between what Israel should be doing and reality on the ground.
You really disappoint me (in this topic), John.

There is nothing good about what is happening. But you mentioned the key words: 'American Politics'. There's Iranian politics, Russian politics, Israeli politics, Saudi politics, Qatari politics; all in the mix.

At the core of this lies Israel and its existence. Israel (government) has made serious mistakes in their treatment of Palestinians which, I agree, is designed to frustrate a 2-state solution. That design is entirely political due to the Likud-Ultra coalition. Getting them out, is down to the Israeli population and I'm not optimistic given the number of Ultras in the population.

In the light of what I've just written, we seem to converge. But we then diverge as to how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas butchery. And none of you can properly address my question:

Should Israel have done nothing in retaliation for the Hamas atrocities? That would have been the only way of avoiding the civilian casualties.


jfman 08-12-2023 10:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166201)
You really disappoint me (in this topic), John.

There is nothing good about what is happening. But you mentioned the key words: 'American Politics'. There's Iranian politics, Russian politics, Israeli politics, Saudi politics, Qatari politics; all in the mix.

At the core of this lies Israel and its existence. Israel (government) has made serious mistakes in their treatment of Palestinians which, I agree, is designed to frustrate a 2-state solution. That design is entirely political due to the Likud-Ultra coalition. Getting them out, is down to the Israeli population and I'm not optimistic given the number of Ultras in the population.

In the light of what I've just written, we seem to converge. But we then diverge as to how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas butchery. And none of you can properly address my question:

Should Israel have done nothing in retaliation for the Hamas atrocities? That would have been the only way of avoiding the civilian casualties.

Your persistent question at the end has been answered, comprehensively, on a number of occasions.

I framed the his job as such because that’s what it is. Framing it any other way makes it debatable. Would the American Secretary of State hold more clout around the world than the political leaders of Israel, or Jewish leaders of other countries such as Zelensky? Potentially, especially in the current climate of a barely coherent US President when allowed to speak for more than a sound bite.

Would that make him the most influential Jew in world politics? Potentially, but I see no value in sidetracking the debate so framing him within American politics, which ranks every cabinet level position in it’s line of succcession, seemed most straightforward and uncontroversial.

ianch99 08-12-2023 10:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166176)
.... by people who cannot say what Israel's response should have been.
I've told you, others have told you. New pair of reading glasses needed?

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166201)
You really disappoint me (in this topic), John.

There is nothing good about what is happening. But you mentioned the key words: 'American Politics'. There's Iranian politics, Russian politics, Israeli politics, Saudi politics, Qatari politics; all in the mix.

At the core of this lies Israel and its existence. Israel (government) has made serious mistakes in their treatment of Palestinians which, I agree, is designed to frustrate a 2-state solution. That design is entirely political due to the Likud-Ultra coalition. Getting them out, is down to the Israeli population and I'm not optimistic given the number of Ultras in the population.

In the light of what I've just written, we seem to converge. But we then diverge as to how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas butchery. And none of you can properly address my question:

Should Israel have done nothing in retaliation for the Hamas atrocities? That would have been the only way of avoiding the civilian casualties.

By accident or design, you have focused on the primary reason lying at the core of this conflict and that is the extreme demands of the Ultra-Zionist factions that have had hands on the levers of power over the decades. It is their religious zealotry that has perverted the agenda in the pursuit of the dream of their biblical Greater Israel. A land cleansed, to the best of their ability, of Arabs.

Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel in 1948 but refused it:

Why Did Einstein Refuse the Presidency of Israel?

His words were prescient:

Quote:
David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, met with Einstein in Princeton, hoping to convince the venerable scientist to be the president of Israel. Einstein refused, and the quotes below might give us clues on why he refused.

In a Dec. 4, 1948, letter to The New York Times, Einstein, along with 28 other prominent members of the Jewish community, wrote that the then-current Israeli political party, the Freedom Party, led by Menachem Begin, was “a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties.”

“It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents,” the letter continued.

Referring to the massacre of Arabs by Jews in the village of Deir Yassin, the letter said “the [Jewish] terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely. … The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.”

Further describing the Freedom Party, the letter stated it includes “an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority” and that it bore the “unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a ‘Leader State’ is the goal.”

The letter ended by saying that America should turn its back on Begin and not support “this latest manifestation of fascism.”

But there’s much more. Ten years prior to this letter, Einstein declared at New York's Commodore Hotel that a Jewish state with borders and an army to protect those borders ran counter to “the essential nature of Judaism.” Also, in 1946 he told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry on the Palestinian issue, “I cannot understand why it [a Jewish State] is needed. It is connected with narrow-minded and economic obstacles. I believe it is bad.”

In a 1938 speech, Einstein said, “I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state.”

And in a quote dating back to the late 1920s Einstein declared, “Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our two thousand years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us.”

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 10:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166204)
I've told you, others have told you. New pair of reading glasses needed?

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------



By accident or design, you have focused on the primary reason lying at the core of this conflict and that is the extreme demands of the Ultra-Zionist factions that have had hands on the levers of power over the decades. It is their religious zealotry that has perverted the agenda in the pursuit of the dream of their biblical Greater Israel. A land cleansed, to the best of their ability, of Arabs.

Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel in 1948 but refused it:

Why Did Einstein Refuse the Presidency of Israel?

His words were prescient:
It's by design. I said that the Ultras lie at the core of the problem facing Israel.

But the Ultras do not justify the barbarity of Hamas when they murdered 1200 Israelis.

As regards Einstein, he was entitled to his views; indeed his characterisation of Begin (one of Likud's founders and a terrorist leader in the British Mandate days) was absolutely correct. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be an Israel (which was Einstein's view). The UN in 1947 thought there should be an Israel, hence there is an Israel.

But to come back to immediate matters, should Israel not have retaliated against Hamas, thus ensuring no Gazan civilian casualties? Or what?

jfman 08-12-2023 11:20
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166207)
But to come back to immediate matters, should Israel not have retaliated against Hamas, thus ensuring no Gazan civilian casualties? Or what?
This has, time and again, been answered comprehensively. The only times a suggestion that Israel do not retaliate against a terror organisation arises in the thread is when you, or a very small number of others, put it up as a straw man.

Nobody, anywhere else, in over a thousand posts has said it.

The real question is why some think that Palestinian civilians should be denied the rights and protections in international law that the post-WW2 rules of war set out.

If the Palestinian people rose up right now, and had the capability (they don’t, but it’s hypothetical) to fight back into Israeli civilian areas and decimate those to the ground nobody, anywhere would be saying “nobody is qualified to tell the Palestinian people how to respond to tens of thousands of their people massacred”.

It’d, rightly, be universally condemned. You’d have no shortage of comment from western political leaders.

TheDaddy 08-12-2023 11:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166197)

With regard to the second phrase I've highlighted in red, you've really shown yourself up. Your sentiment seems to include a Palestinian tipping point of 'enough is enough' - let's fight Israel. But the barbarity of Hamas has no justification. You might as well be one of the 300,000.
Are you drunk, seriously are you, if not it takes a special kind of stupid to draw that conclusion but in case your having a moment of clarity to clarify, if Netanyahu hadn't propped up hamas at the expense of the PA because he and his ilk can't stand the idea of Palestinian statehood hamas might not have been strong enough to carry out the attack

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 12:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166213)
This has, time and again, been answered comprehensively. The only times a suggestion that Israel do not retaliate against a terror organisation arises in the thread is when you, or a very small number of others, put it up as a straw man.

Nobody, anywhere else, in over a thousand posts has said it.

The real question is why some think that Palestinian civilians should be denied the rights and protections in international law that the post-WW2 rules of war set out.

If the Palestinian people rose up right now, and had the capability (they don’t, but it’s hypothetical) to fight back into Israeli civilian areas and decimate those to the ground nobody, anywhere would be saying “nobody is qualified to tell the Palestinian people how to respond to tens of thousands of their people massacred”.

It’d, rightly, be universally condemned. You’d have no shortage of comment from western political leaders.

The question hasn't been answered at all. It's been swerved by people who complain about civilian deaths. The only way of avoiding civilian deaths after the Hamas atrocities would have been no retaliation.

You people can't bring yourselves to acknowledge that because it is as impossible to have happened as your unanswerable question as to how many civilian deaths justify Israel's retaliation.



---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36166216)
Are you drunk, seriously are you, if not it takes a special kind of stupid to draw that conclusion but in case your having a moment of clarity to clarify, if Netanyahu hadn't propped up hamas at the expense of the PA because he and his ilk can't stand the idea of Palestinian statehood hamas might not have been strong enough to carry out the attack
Another swerve from you.

Had Hamas carried out a different type of attack, with no barbarity, might not Israel's retaliation have been different and of lower consequences for the Gazan population.

My 'enough is enough' observation is spot on.

1andrew1 08-12-2023 12:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166218)

The question hasn't been answered at all. It's been swerved by people who complain about civilian deaths. The only way of avoiding civilian deaths after the Hamas atrocities would have been no retaliation.

You people can't bring yourselves to acknowledge that because it is as impossible to have happened as your unanswerable question as to how many civilian deaths justify Israel's retaliation.
jfman has answered the question quite conclusively. His suggestion sought to provide the maximum long-term security for Israel and to minimise civilian deaths.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 12:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166220)
jfman has answered the question quite conclusively. His suggestion sought to provide the maximum long-term security for Israel and to minimise civilian deaths.

John has said nothing to address how Israel should have reacted to the barbaric Hamas attack other than basically imply "not this way".

None of you critics of Israel's retaliation have come up with an answer as to how Israel should have reacted. The barbarity of Hamas is not warranted by Israel's historic treatment of Palestinians.

All you pontificators as to 'long term security for Israel' take little notice of the realities within Israel and its actions in the West Bank. The Ultras are at critical mass and, like the Ayatollahs, are narrow minded and intransigent. Unless the pontificators can suggest how the Ultras can change course, there is no 2 state solution possible and Israel's long term security will significantly depend on military strength. And, if USA flexes its muscles to pressure Israel, things will get 'interesting'.

1andrew1 08-12-2023 13:13
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166224)

John has said nothing to address how Israel should have reacted to the barbaric Hamas attack other than basically imply "not this way".

None of you critics of Israel's retaliation have come up with an answer as to how Israel should have reacted. The barbarity of Hamas is not warranted by Israel's historic treatment of Palestinians.

All you pontificators as to 'long term security for Israel' take little notice of the realities within Israel and its actions in the West Bank. The Ultras are at critical mass and, like the Ayatollahs, are narrow minded and intransigent. Unless the pontificators can suggest how the Ultras can change course, there is no 2 state solution possible and Israel's long term security will significantly depend on military strength. And, if USA flexes its muscles to pressure Israel, things will get 'interesting'.
This is what jfman said
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166021)
Ongoing, persistent, strategic attacks on Hamas people and infrastructure.

This is the same Israel that hunted down the terrorists down after the Munich Olympics, and hunted down Nazis for decades. They know how to play the long game. They’re experts.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 13:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36166225)
This is what jfman said
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
Ongoing, persistent, strategic attacks on Hamas people and infrastructure.

This is the same Israel that hunted down the terrorists down after the Munich Olympics, and hunted down Nazis for decades. They know how to play the long game. They’re experts.
I previously said, and to which you replied above:

Quote:
John has said nothing to address how Israel should have reacted to the barbaric Hamas attack other than basically imply "not this way".

None of you critics of Israel's retaliation have come up with an answer as to how Israel should have reacted. The barbarity of Hamas is not warranted by Israel's historic treatment of Palestinians.

All you pontificators as to 'long term security for Israel' take little notice of the realities within Israel and its actions in the West Bank. The Ultras are at critical mass and, like the Ayatollahs, are narrow minded and intransigent. Unless the pontificators can suggest how the Ultras can change course, there is no 2 state solution possible and Israel's long term security will significantly depend on military strength. And, if USA flexes its muscles to pressure Israel, things will get 'interesting'.

First, I thank you for taking the trouble to dig out your best shot at putting forward John's argument.

My problem with that is:

1. The first sentence is too short to have contextual meaning.

2. The second sentence does nothing to address the specifics of 7-Oct.

jfman 08-12-2023 13:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I’ve also commented on Israel and securing it’s own border which will do far more to improve the safety and security of Israelis and Jews around the world than bombarding the population of Gaza into a humanitarian crisis on the Egyptian border.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 14:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166227)
I’ve also commented on Israel and securing it’s own border which will do far more to improve the safety and security of Israelis and Jews around the world than bombarding the population of Gaza into a humanitarian crisis on the Egyptian border.
That Israel hadn't secured its border isn't in question.
The government owe the public big time and, I hope will pay the price electorally.

But it is the question of Hamas' barbarity to which Israel has retaliated that you and others swerve. Again, should Israel have NOT retaliated? How else would Hama be eliminated?

jfman 08-12-2023 14:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166228)
That Israel hadn't secured its border isn't in question.
The government owe the public big time and, I hope will pay the price electorally.

But it is the question of Hamas' barbarity to which Israel has retaliated that you and others swerve. Again, should Israel have NOT retaliated? How else would Hama be eliminated?
You’ve had your questions answered multiple times over.

The straw men of no retaliation, and “eliminating” Hamas as a goal that can be achieved in this conflict, once again rear their heads.

Paul 08-12-2023 15:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166187)
Might as well close the thread then I guess if we can’t comment on the deaths of thousands of Palestinian women and children and describe it as excessive.
Making up nonsense I never said just makes you look a muppet.
You can, of course, stop posting in the topic anytime you want to. :dozey:

ianch99 08-12-2023 15:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166224)
None of you critics of Israel's retaliation have come up with an answer as to how Israel should have reacted. The barbarity of Hamas is not warranted by Israel's historic treatment of Palestinians.
Here's my last answer to your question: https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=1059

As you imply, the key to this is the US who have a considerable degree of control & influence over Israel esp. in the area of military aid. If they exercise this leverage, like George Bush Snr did in 1991:

George H.W. Bush’s pressure on Israel provides model for progressives

Quote:
HuffPost, May 2021

Even as Thursday’s cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinian militia Hamas brings an end to the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed, there are signs that the recent violence could have a long-term effect on U.S. policy in the region.

Namely, the high civilian death toll of the Israeli bombing campaign ― conducted in response to a barrage of rockets fired indiscriminately into Israel ― has breathed new life into calls for a reassessment of the United States’ financial and diplomatic support for Israel.

Proponents of imposing tougher conditions on the United States’ annual $3.8 billion military aid package to Israel are now concentrated mostly on the political left. But the most recent U.S. president to actually use the threat of withheld aid to change Israeli policy was Republican George H.W. Bush.

Although the circumstances today are not identical, Bush’s showdown with Israel in 1991 over the terms of U.S. loan guarantees serves as an illustration of what a more evenhanded U.S. approach to the conflict could look like. Bush withheld the loan guarantees until he was satisfied that the money borrowed with U.S. assistance would not go toward Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories.

“Bush established consequences for bad behavior, and he got results,” said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute. “It can happen again.”

At the very least, progressives see Bush’s actions as a useful reminder that renegotiating U.S. aid to Israel is not an extreme, left-wing idea.

“The issue of leveraging U.S. aid to Israel has become so far dragged in the direction of radical foreign policy hawks that people forget how common-sense of a position it was just a few decades ago,” said Waleed Shahid, a spokesperson for Justice Democrats, a left-wing group that has helped unseat a number of hawkish Democrats.
then there could be hope ...

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 16:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166236)
Here's my last answer to your question: https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=1059

As you imply, the key to this is the US who have a considerable degree of control & influence over Israel esp. in the area of military aid. If they exercise this leverage, like George Bush Snr did in 1991:

George H.W. Bush’s pressure on Israel provides model for progressives



then there could be hope ...

This was your 'answer' :

Quote:
What should Israel's response have been? It should have been considered, measured and surgical. It should have used world opinion to help pursue Hamas leadership & funding, in the same way Putin was sanction after invading Ukraine. It should have stopped the illegal ethnic cleansing on the West Bank and removed the settlements installed over the last 20 years.
"Considered, measured, surgical": Means nothing because you have not translated that into anything feasible and tangible.

"It should have used world opinion to help pursue Hamas leadership & funding, in the same way Putin was sanction after invading Ukraine. Il": Also means nothing because 'world opinion' varies considerably; it's woolly, fluffy and devoid of likelihood of results. As to Putin being sanctioned - what's wrong with you? Putin heads a powerful country. What sanctions are you talking about? Btw, Putin's winning the Ukraine situation in the sense that Ukraine can never beat Russia.

"It should have stopped the illegal ethnic cleansing on the West Bank and removed the settlements installed over the last 20 years."
: What kind of Israeli retaliation is that? Of course it might have prevented militant attacks but that doesn't deal with the question of how, in reality, Israel should have reacted to Hams' barbarism.

jfman 08-12-2023 17:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166239)

This was your 'answer' :

"Considered, measured, surgical": Means nothing because you have not translated that into anything feasible and tangible.

"It should have used world opinion to help pursue Hamas leadership & funding, in the same way Putin was sanction after invading Ukraine. Il": Also means nothing because 'world opinion' varies considerably; it's woolly, fluffy and devoid of likelihood of results. As to Putin being sanctioned - what's wrong with you? Putin heads a powerful country. What sanctions are you talking about? Btw, Putin's winning the Ukraine situation in the sense that Ukraine can never beat Russia.

"It should have stopped the illegal ethnic cleansing on the West Bank and removed the settlements installed over the last 20 years."
: What kind of Israeli retaliation is that? Of course it might have prevented militant attacks but that doesn't deal with the question of how, in reality, Israel should have reacted to Hams' barbarism.
Your pretence that these statements have no meaning certainly goes some way to explain your flawed conclusion that there is only a binary approach of do this or do nothing.

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 17:16
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36166240)
Your pretence that these statements have no meaning certainly goes some way to explain your flawed conclusion that there is only a binary approach of do this or do nothing.

That's not correct. I've asked people who have reached a conclusion (Israel's doing wrong) to wind back to zero Palestinian casualties and then what should Israel has done.

Ian has offered woolly, fluffy answers with no anchor in reality.

You've never answered my question. So, I'll ask it again with some added context:

Hamas has invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1200 people in the most barbaric manner. At that point, what should Israel have done given that Hamas hides among the civilian population?

jfman 08-12-2023 17:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166241)

That's not correct. I've asked people who have reached a conclusion (Israel's doing wrong) to wind back to zero Palestinian casualties and then what should Israel has done.

Ian has offered woolly, fluffy answers with no anchor in reality.

You've never answered my question. So, I'll ask it again with some added context:

Hamas has invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1200 people in the most barbaric manner. At that point, what should Israel have done given that Hamas hides among the civilian population?
I'm not persisting in playing your games where you casually dismiss clear answers that do not confirm your own view. I and others have explained our clear positions on a number of occasions.

It's today, there's a humanitarian crisis hitting over a million displaced people. Estimates vary between 12,000 and 20,000 dead, mostly women and children. The Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations claims Israel's true ambition is ethnic cleansing, and accused them of enacting genocide among other war crimes. Other opinions are available. However, how many Palestinian civilian deaths do you think are "too many" aspiring to "eliminate" a terrorist organisation of less than 20,000 members?

Sephiroth 08-12-2023 17:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
@jfman

We've reached stalemate, John. Others can judge our exchanges.

ianch99 08-12-2023 18:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36166241)

That's not correct. I've asked people who have reached a conclusion (Israel's doing wrong) to wind back to zero Palestinian casualties and then what should Israel has done.

Ian has offered woolly, fluffy answers with no anchor in reality.

You've never answered my question. So, I'll ask it again with some added context:

Hamas has invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1200 people in the most barbaric manner. At that point, what should Israel have done given that Hamas hides among the civilian population?
I don't appreciate the patronising attitude. You seem incapable of rational debate so I think we're done here.

Pierre 08-12-2023 18:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166244)
I don't appreciate the patronising attitude.
Haha, you’re priceless, the hypocrisy is strong with one

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166087)
Don't be such a child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36166126)
Only a child would not understand this.

Ooo I don’t appreciate the patronising attitude, who’s acting like a child now?

jfman 08-12-2023 21:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire and the immediate, unconditional release of all hostages. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.


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