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Yeah we both know that he is talking out of his ass but unfortunately with this circus act of a government you never can quite tell where the barometer swings for the level of incompetence. (Or even impotence).

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That is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that this Government cannot be trusted to carry forward the degree of Consumer protection that the EU currently underwrites. In fact, the future that the Hard Brexit supporters want for us demands such standards be diluted and/or removed.

As to your point that we only do it because it's part of the SM package, this is true to a degree. When we leave, we could just as easily mirror new EU consumer protection legislation as our own, autonomous, UK laws if we wanted to. The key phrase here is if we wanted to. If our Government wanted to get a better trade deal with the US, they could choose to lower or remove import standards for food for example and, by definition, no one could stop them.

One of the big Cons of the EU debate is that the EU always impose unnecessary and restrictive legislation on the member states with no or little upside when, in reality, the exact opposite is true.

The EU has a website where you can look up your favorite anti-EU myth:

Euromyths A-Z index

There are some classics here:

Butchers cannot give a dog a bone

Corgis to be banned by EU

EU workers immune from law

Yoghurt to be renamed

and so many more ..

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Oh dear...:erm:

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Yes, the ass was involved for the talking thereof:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Brandon_Lewis

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen casts doubt on claims broken pair incident was honest mistake

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Yeah, even Damien pointed it out, later: (good on you both for homing in this despicable behavior btw)

This kind of behavior is appalling - the whips forced an MP to vote bringing her sick bucket in on the labor side etc.

Damien you are a lot more familiar with parliamentary protocol, why is it not possible to have a new vote on this with Swinson's pairing honored?

May and the whips would buckle to it IMO - she caves on every other thing as it is...(to everyone).

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Firstly I was responding to Denphone's statement.
Secondly my statement
is miles away from
as it is equally possible they (the leavers) may not.

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If that were to ever happen, yes.

It won't though because parliament will never approve a no deal exit - the votes are not even close to being there.

We will end up staying in the EU, until another government comes into place.

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Yeah, well they're probably hoping that the parents stay together until the kids grow older - then they will be content for the olds to go off and die. (I suppose now you will go draw parallels between the ages of proportionate voters - leave vs remain...but then again, you did start this analogy!)






Yeah, me too...

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and then what? Parliament rejects May's best efforts deal and we then do something ... or nothing.

May won't allow a second Vote because ERG has her by the cojones and Corbyn desperately wants a Hard brexit to pursue his socialist nirvana.

Must re-watch Into The Void again ..

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There's a little problem there no-one seems to have spotted. I'm assuming you are relying on amendment 7 on EU (Withdrawal) Bill 2018. The meaningful vote.

Source

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Government's no-Brexit deal advice shows shocking rise in red tape in the event of no deal. https://news.sky.com/story/britain-u...-tape-11480037

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So no major surprises in the government 'no deal' advice. Surpirsingly, there's not been much 'project fear' about the advice from the press or the ERG people. A lot of the pints raised have been called this in the past.

Here's a link to the papers - https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...u-with-no-deal

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Yeah that was there ultimate goal through nationalism - the end goal of socialism. Just rather conveniently happens to be an antisemitic, support nationalized healthcare etc. Co-incidence?

Anyway aside from pointing out similarities to the Nazi's I guess I might as well use this post to say that Lab now also does seem to have found enough political room for maneuver to suggest that they would back a second referendum if a no deal exit fails, which it will:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8504001.html

Barry Gardiner made a mess of his comments but he is a seat right next to Barnet which is the most conservative town in the UK and is worried that the leave vote will spill over into his area, not to mention Barnet has the biggest Jewish community in the UK so that is something that he is afraid of, too. His vote total and percentage has been steadily increasing for a decade + now so I don't think that he wants to squander that at all.

The thing is, everyone knew this was coming but for all Labor's talk of respecting the vote etc, we all know that if there is no deal, they are going to turn suit and refuse to leave / favor another vote / advocate remaining etc. We all know that it is going to happen - agree with it or not, it is a reality. If May stays, and continues with the idiocy of chequers / her plan to stay aligned on goods only, then we're staying in the EU as there is no way a no deal exit gets through parliament.

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Actually (and not a lot of people know this), the Nazi's privatised a lot of the State industries...

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2009.00473.x

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I think the only way Labour will support a second referendum is if they get rid of Corbyn. He has waited for decades for this, there is no way he will do a 180 and buy into remaining in the EU.

As both sides will soon recognise the disaster that No Deal represents, the posturing, esp. by Rabb of playing down the impact of WTO No Deal in March will be replaced by a last minute muddy fudge of a Withdrawal Agreement to allow the UK/EU to move into a transition limbo where they will try (and fail) to square the circle.

After this tedious 20 months, I guess we will end up in the unavoidable (while the current Players are in charge) WTO Brexit but at least we will have had 2 more years (ish) to make the pain less.

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Yeah Sepiroth made the best comments on it here, as best I can see:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=627

The first part of his comments best explain the difficulties in getting an agreement from all member states etc but Barnier and Macron really did hint that were there to be that "substantial change" then it could lead to an extension of A50:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...y-eu-officials

At this point every person knows that May's opinion is irrelevant - even if she is opposed nobody cares.

What becomes interesting is what Barnier and co determine to be a "substantial change"...is it a leadership contest? If the prospect of a new government suffices that would surely warrant a delay...and at that point we all know that the UK will be staying in the EU.

One thing to remember...Ireland is still a part of the EU. If the EU were to protect their interests (as they should) then they will likely show a little leniency to keep the UK in. (To avoid a hard border etc).

Of course they could shatter the UK into pieces by allowing a hard border, seeing a United Ireland (following a BP) and break British sovereignty altogether....but they're not nasty like that.

Only way that there is any chance to leave, is if there is a leadership contest / new Tory PM, who promises a GE. Even then, the odds that we are leaving in March of next year are next to zero.

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Brave words, Chloe.😀

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People who are definitely in favor of leaving don't really dispute it though ; Mick is not annoyed because he thinks that I am wrong, he is angry because we will be tied into the EU, one way or another for good now, and that is a best case scenario. (For those that want to leave).

People who are pissed off at what May has done are not angry at other people for pointing it out, they are pissed off because of because of the reality of the situation.

To everyone other than Old Boy it seems.

William Hague once said that there are two types of views on Europe within the cabinet. Those that are Euroskeptic and want to stay in a reformed EU and those who are Euroskeptic on Europe who wish to leave.

That is still the case and May's plan is not placating the former at all (it is just a permanent alignment) and the latter are pissed off as hell at her in general + they want a complete severing of terms with the EU in every way possible.

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Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

A lot of truth in what Chloe says Andrew.

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And they had really nice boots .;)

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

:disturbd:

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You have repeated this many times now. I replied early on with my argument why you are wrong, others can speak for themselves.

Remember that some country has to be the largest economy in Europe. You feel Germany uses its position for malign influence. I think you are wrong but you have every right to believe it.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

She is right, Andrew. Too little time and too much to lose on both sides. The decision makers will, in the end, ignore the deluded "WTO is the only way" fanatics and punt the can down the road of pragmatism.

The really interesting bit comes at the end of the transition period :)

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I've never met a "WTO is the only way" fanatic. WTO rules are only a stop-gap if needed while trade deals are being formed.

On the other hand there are those who think leaving the EU with no deal means the end of the world and all trade will stop.

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You may not have actually met one but here's a few choice selection of TOWIWTO advocates:

Express: 'We will not crash out!' Leading Brexiteer insists Britain will THRIVE on WTO rules

FT: Pro-Brexit MPs to set out plans for no deal

Spectator: No deal with the EU? Sounds like a good deal to me

Brexitcentral.com: The WTO option is now the best choice for Brexit

Leavehq.com: What’s wrong with the WTO Option?

Ah, the much played "Project Fear" card. I think that diversionary tactic has been seen through by now.

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Okay...do you understand that sometimes in life there is nothing to negotiate?? When the EU says that the 4 principles of freedom that they have are indivisible, do you not get that?

When JRM says that no how, no way is he going to accept a compromise, do you not think that he is deadly serious?

Opening doors / trying to wiggle some kind of rebranding through etc...that is what everyone is so annoyed about to begin with. The EU won't budge, those who want to leave based on total severing of everything won't ease either...then there is you. You and May. The EU are not going to budge, the ERG are not going to budge, the DUP have made it clear that they will not support a border down the Irish Sea, lab / lib Dems will not back anything that the Tories propose, the SNP hate everything English etc etc.

No means no...you have to learn to accept that word.

Holy shit, this is like Groundhog day. Every time you say "you'll see, next time she'll get it right!"

What is wrong with you??

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QFFT.

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Yeah, this is probably the one place me and you agree on ; for different reasons all be it. There is no need for any on the remain side to worry or grow desperate at all. Because May keeps going the rate she is, we're bot leaving and the leavers will be the ones infuriated.

They agree that they are 80% there, because the 100% of that 80% was either already EU law, or what they asked, we gave. (Like the divorce bill etc). Like Sephiroth said, the EU have probably not acted in good faith - but then again, why should they? They are dealing with someone who has all to beg for and no dignity left to hold on to. When they talked about the divorce bill, we agreed. Transition timeline, they decided the length. The issue of citizens right - we both decided to agree on their terms for both our sets of people. The ECJ? The issue of Fisheries, the aspect of Europol and of the 4 principles, and on and on and on and on. What the heck have they agreed to that Britain has requested?? It has been a one way street.

I want to flip that question round from above...how can this be called a negotiation when all we ever do as obey their commands? It is not a negotiation...she is just being told what her place is.

FWIW if I ever get to intense negotiations, I want it to be with someone like May, too. I should come out of it alright.

Look I have to ask something before we carry on...are you related to her or something? (At which point I will stop, out of courtesy for you defending a family member. Because honestly, there can be no other explanation for your behavior...)

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So you said this before you said "there will be a deal by the end of October, you'll see!!"

You are all over the place - are you quite alright?

Also, what happened to your love of all things Max Fac?? Remember when you kept saying that it was the only way to go / was going to be the only choice / it was going to pass?

You sure changed your tune on that real fast...

OB it is becoming impossible to take you seriously on a single discussion involving anything political anymore...

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In fairness to Old Boy, his end of October deadline is two months away.
I still think we'll leave the EU next March but through necessity, will mirror lots of its regulations without any input to them.

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This, coming from you? You get every single prediction wrong, but wow do you shout it from the rooftops!

Unfortunately the other "she" (May), seems to think that it is.

Anyway what would be the point in discussing it with the EU? Most of the negotiations that May was doing was with her own cabinet.

Now she is done on that phase, and the EU have rejected it, she can have fun negotiating it within her own larger party. Then with parliament as a whole. (Until they boot her).

Think she'll approach it with a "shhh it's a secret" selling point?

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We're Leaving due to the Bots, I get it .. :)

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With Macron, even the CAP seems to have potential for change, but we are leaving, so will have no influence.

Somewhat simplistic perhaps, but the EU has always seemed confusing for the average UK citizen. What people see on the news is all about the various nations political leaders getting to decide EU policy and direction.
Where the people we elect as MEPs are there to serve the whole of the EU and sit within groups of a similar political flavour, not solely to represent the UK. So such as hard working MEPs are forgotten, whilst the noisy and lazy such as Farage make the news.

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Lol :D

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Last time I checkedーit was law

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The referendum is not binding. Article 50 could be withdrawn. However, this is extremely unlikely, so leaving is a process Government are in the midst of negotiating terms for. It is not a law.

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Brexit is now enshrined in UK Law - the Withdrawal Act did that but did not specify a leaving date. As you know, Article 50 sets the date unless extended by mutual agreement.

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Interesting that there is now a debate emerging here as to whether we will actually leave the EU.

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Only amongst the chattering classes, EU 5th columnists and the Westminster quislings who oppose the will of the people.

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The law enshrines what happens once we actually leave the EU. Not before.

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Indeed.

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You have been watching too much Harry Potter methinks Heero.:D

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Trust you to put that spin on the discussion.

However, conspiracy theory is a powerful drug. With Brexit being led by a Remainer, May doing Hammond's bidding and the so-called Technical Notices raising the spectre of the discredited Project Fear, I see a second referendum having been their entire goal from Day 1.

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Means traitor in English, not sure what it means in Harry Potter.

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quisling
a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.

Maybe it was a play on words.;)

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Try reading the posts again. You will see that some people on here - not me - don't think we'll leave the EU. I think that's interesting.

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I have never hidden my contempt for the remain side ,but the thread rules stop me from expressing my true feelings :)

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Quisling is something used when you need something worse, and more emotional, than traitor. He was an anti-semite with sympathies to the Nazis even before the invasion and helped them in any way he could including with the Holocaust.

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It’s entirely possible to understand a reference to Vidkun Quisling without ever having seen (or read) Harry Potter. ;)

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Now, if you transpose that to Junker/Selmayr (the Brussels unmentionables) then that might put Hammond/May into an unsavoury perspective.

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That's what I use FaceBook for.

I have several members here whom I have on Facebook.

I recently unfriended and blocked a member her over brexit when he turned it personal.

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Interesting as its origins may be, it's a bit disappointing to see such language in this thread given the instructions in the first post.

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Quisling/traitor etc expect a lot more of that when it goes pear shaped. Somebody must take the blame, as it will never be down to the Brexiteers ! It'll be the Govt, Remainers, Corbyn, May Junker etc. , but they need to look in the mirror more ....

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tbh honest, although I'm no defender of them, the govt. might not be to blame (apart from Cameron, who only had the vote to try and save his job).

It might just be as simple as Brexit is a crap idea, and you can't polish a turd. Yes people voted for it, but for all the wrong reasons e.g. Immigration, some false sense of being patriotic.... People will vote for any change or blame anything if they're unhappy with their lot or want to stick to the establishment/govt. of the day. Unfortunately most of them are going to be much worse off as a result.

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One of the many turds you can’t polish is the EU. Hence the referendum result. I thinkthat immigration was a major issue for some of the “unwashed” if I might call them that. I never had a problem with free movement of Labour; I did/do have a problem with successive guvmins not putting infrastructure in to service the increase in population, their children and grandchildren. This is the big failing of all recent guvmins.

That incompetence and short term political thinking is what is doing us over now.

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Spot on. Farage has returned to put some lipstick on the pig but the public are now more aware of what a no-deal Brexit looks like and I predict he won't have such an easy ride.

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.... which brings us back to the possible fudge; because neither side benefits from a cliff-edge no deal.

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"Lipstick on pig" ,"cliff edge","fudge" ,"crap idea".

sounds like the remain camp are having another bad day ;)

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Unfortunately, if it goes adversely, it affects everyone in the UK - schadenfruede doesn't work if you are also affected negatively...

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Lipstick on a pig has been used more by US conservatives as of late, in regards to referring to government spending / waste etc. In fact, looking back at who commonly uses the phrase in the last decade, it has been the likes of Sarah Palin, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney etc. It is used a lot more by the right, to ridicule the left. :)

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I know a couple of people like you Seph.

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In honor of McCain they must be paid staffers and family members who think that she / the government is doing a good job.

Heck even half the government don't seem to think so, most of them seem to be resigning and briefing against the plan.

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Ummm...what?

Which won't pass parliament....the EU know that with May around, they have nothing to worry about. If she falls and the next Tory leader calls a GE then yes, it might pass (a no deal vote) with a larger commons majority.

Yes but neither is okay with a majority of MPs (even though you seem to think that one already is) and not only was the Chequers plan not okay with the EU, neither was anything else that she has proposed.

So yes, either scenario is fine with you but not with anyone else.

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True and if you don't have the trade deal to the extent of an FTA you end up with things like you know...tariffs and barriers.

It has done nothing of the sort. How could it with the likes of OB (and everyone else who lives in an alternate reality) constantly drumming up the issue of trade being as "friction-less" as possible.

As much as you wish to lump the issue of trade being a possibility (with an FTA) as something that is "lost" on the remainers, (your words), it is the leave side that is constantly drumming up the issue of "future relations", as if a future trade deal is the be all and end all of everything.

Do not try and pin this on folks who voted remain...

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I can only assume that Old Boy meant Cabinet not Parliament. Though the subsequent resignations weakened the approval.

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Yes, but who is?

Does he or she even know that they are in charge at this point?

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What credibility? Kim Jong Un's propaganda minister has more credibility than him...

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Problem has always been the extremes vs the middle.
The extreme at one end seem to want those who voted to remain to be gracious in defeat, yet forget this was over 48% of the vote and seemingly take great pleasure in rubbing their noses in their win.

There will be no good outcome from leaving. Will either be too extreme for most or too wishy washy for a few. The majority will not be happy regardless.

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The 48% vs. 52%, is still a loss in a binary vote.

WHY is this topic still looking/going backwards and discussing the merits of leaving/remaining.?

A Referendum took place, one answer was Democratically decided. Nobody is asking any body to be gracious. I couldn’t care less if Remainers accept the result or not, but what I do not stand for is the derogatory insults that “some” Remainers levy at Brexiteers, for simply choosing a decision they believe in.

I want to leave the Corrupt EU. I don’t want to be in a group that is so economically unbalanced. Remainers think everything is so rosy in this bloc. Wrong, just look at the youth unemployment in the other Member States.

We do not need to pay a hefty membership fee, 1 of 10, of 28 who pay in far more than they get out, to be a trading partner with European countries.

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I accept we are leaving. Voted leave myself.

The problem is and and always has been, what that means for the individual voter.

Some voted leave with a hard brexit in mind.
Others voted leave but hoped to stay in the customs union.
Some voted leave just to give the government the message to listen.

Whichever way you look at this, The government are still not listening and the majority will not be happy no matter the results of the negotiation.

You only have to look at the result of the last election to see how at odds the country is.

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some read the leaflet posted through the door explaining exactly what brexit was.

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Whist others believed messages on the side of buses.

Assuming everyone has the same understanding of Brexit is where it goes wrong.

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See this is the biggest reason that a future prediction on what happens in March is so difficult. If there is no parliamentary majority for a no deal exit, then what? There is nothing set in stone.

Chris and Damien sometimes talk about the Parliamentary flexibility that we have and if they can understand it, all the more to them.

The rigidity of the EU's principles and or something like the US constitution set into stone what would happen in an event like this. With the UK, it is anyone's guess.

There isn't going to be a deal, that is a given. (Old Boy enter here to dispute that).

If there is no deal, I don't see that ever passing parliament. (Not even close).

I have a feeling that the reason that May keeps saying that she will lead the Tories into the next GE is because she suspects that it will be in 2019 when her government falls due to failure of getting the exit bill through either chamber.

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What makes you think parliament gets to vote on no deal?

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Exactly. Parliament gets to vote ONLY on May's deal IF there is one. Otherwise the default position is WTO rules next march. That default position WAS voted through by parliament.

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I think a lot of people haven’t realised that yet. Parliament gave authorisation for the government to trigger Art.50, which is a time-limited process with a pre-determined default conclusion, i.e. the member state leaves the EU. That is the process and the outcome Parliament has agreed to already. If there is no proposed deal with the EU then there is nothing more for it to vote on. ‘No deal’ is far likelier than many think.

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I think the most likely outcome is 'no deal' but there will be a 'transition period' where we're effectively in the EU while talks continue.

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I did mention this almost a week ago even quoting the MP who tabled the amendment but it went straight over their heads.
Ostriches come to mind.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=1011

I also think Damien is correct.

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Good News Everyone!


https://www.ft.com/content/f75ad220-...1-e5de165fa619

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Someone is bound to call it a poison chalice. Can’t be good news till we know what the offer is.

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50% off macarons for 12 months and a free Pilsner for everyone over 18.

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I would prefer 80% off Macron, 60% off Merkel, 100% off Juncker, 500% off Selmayr and zero tariff on sour pickled cucumbers.

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Obviously we need to play hardball and negotiate an on-going discount for the European beers. I know some Brexiters will come in here and say we can get new beers from America but personally I prefer alcohol in mine so that's no good.

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Indeed you did, though I was thinking more of people in general, than CF commenters particularly. I also think Damien is right, or at least I did until he also posted the comments Barnier has just made.

No Deal poses a massive risk to the EU precisely because there is no way for the EU’s allies in our own Parliament to stop it. Parliament ends up getting its “meaningful say” on whatever is eventually agreed, about 2 years after we have left the EU. Seeing as the continuity remainers are now barely concealing the fact that their aim, by any available means, is to stop Brexit happening at all, holding a vote after we’ve already left is no use. They might vote down the deal and that might bring down the government, but it isn’t going to result in a new referendum on staying in. The horse will have bolted.

In order to precipitate a crisis, there must be a deal to be voted on before next March. Barnier is well aware of this. That ultimately is what still makes Some Sort of Deal more likely than No Deal.

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So May has been wilier than for credit given.

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Theresa May could be defeated in Parliament by David Davis's promise to vote against her proposals
https://www.ft.com/content/4a169c68-...4-6f049d06439c

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So who would expect Davis to vote for a deal he resigned over?

Brexit news must be slow ATM.

It's noticeable that the remainers on this thread have been quiet for days since it was pointed out to them that Parliament don't get to vote on a no deal scenario.

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US beer has been linked to Gnat urine, only weaker.

Their so called whiskey is just as bad.

We don't need Euro beers as we have enough small batch beer makers in the UK and you should find one you like.

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Please recommend me a dry beer like Asahi or Peroni so that I can support your position.

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Morrison's own brand premium strength lager. Can't go wrong ;)

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I'm not a beer drinker, but could suggest small batch Vodka's.

Look for any beer festivals near you and try the free samples.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Europeans don’t make beer, they make a pale, urine-like substance called lager. American ‘beer’ is an attempt to commercialise and broaden the appeal of lager. Inevitably from such a low starting point, a mass-market lager is only ever going to taste like the urinary products of a short-lived, biting insect.

Beer, on the other hand, is only properly made in England (also, to a lesser extent in Wales and Scotland, but we can let the Scots off thanks to the whisky) and comes in an infinite variety of wonderful colours and flavours.

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Belgium makes some wonderful brown beers and Germany some lovely wheat beers. Lager's not all bad and the Czech Republic has some great offerings like Budvar and Staropramen. And the craft beer scene in many European countries is thriving with various styles of porters, IPAs, brown ales and lagers on offer.

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Asahi is the best beer by far.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Hmm, if that report was correct, he seems to have changed his mind a lot since then!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rade-proposals

https://news.sky.com/story/michel-ba...or-eu-11488846