re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I mean freedom of movement to work, travel and so on without visas. Freedom of movement doesn't have to mean borderless travel. Might be a bit difficult for those who work/live on either side of borders but that issue wasn't why freedom of movement was set-up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not really. Fair points to be made regarding all this.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

In further news: Moody’s: Brexit Is ‘Manageable’… ‘Limited Implications’… Economic Impact ‘Small’

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Absolutely, and it's not as if the In campaign would do anything of the kind.

http://order-order.com/2016/03/23/bs...ssels-attacks/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

that is a silly comment. It makes it harder for them to get in if we leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we stay in the EU we'll be obliged to give free movement to anyone who's been given an EU passport. Even though getting out on its own isn't going to improve our order security* That'd include all sorts of people with dodgy backgrounds and even dodgier intentions. I really don't see how that undeniable fact improves our security. :spin:

*yet more lorry loads of migrants have just been found having entered the UK illegally

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/p...cle4720359.ece)

and it's not unusual:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-35882558

I wonder how many European Schengen countries the latter were waived through on their way here...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We would tighten up our border and immigration controls:

The EU immigration and border system is ‘like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe’ says former head of Interpol.

The EU’s open border system - the ‘Schengen’ system - has recently been condemned by the former Secretary General of Interpol, Ronald K Noble, as ‘an international passport-free zone for terrorists to execute attacks on the Continent and make their escape’.

https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/p...34728186704110

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To be fair, regardless of Schengen madness, we ought to have tightened up our own border controls many years ago. If we had, however, the Jungle in Calais would now be the size of a small city and I don't suppose the French would've appreciated that... :erm:

Leaving the EU on its own certainly isn't going to solve our very own illegal migration crisis.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I thought it was the size of a small city and growing all the time. Despite where they move them to it is growing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

I'd certainly take his words over and above those of self serving carear politicians.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not sure 4-6,000 population quite constitutes a small city (Cathedral cities aside) but you are right that it's not getting any smaller.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know Towns with smaller populations in my area.

---------- Post added at 09:00 ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 ----------

Indeed. A man who should be in the know comes out with basically what I said about making it harder for terrorists to gain entry into the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The European Convention of Human Rights is a separate organisation to the EU. We'll still be part of it if we leave the EU, is there a proposal to leave the ECHR as well? The membership of the ECHR is much larger than the EU and encompasses pretty much every other European nation.

Also when he says we can leave does that mean there is a stipulation that EU members have to also be a member of the Council of Europe?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So do I, which is why I used the term small city to describe what the Jungle would have become had we got our act together. It's already a town. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

With the IN campaign reminding us of all the wonderful benefits or being such a valued and respected member of the club as well as all the doom which will inevitably ensue if we dare to leave, I'm wondering how long it'll be before they start telling us we ought to pay more for the privilege of staying in... :spin: :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Economist has an article today that better makes the point about trade deals: http://www.economist.com/news/britai...le-trade-winds

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They already have: Costs are expected to rise to £73 m. per week and it cost £3 bn. more last year than forecast:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-expected.html

On a lighter note but showing the stupidity of the EU:

Bonkers EU bureaucrats sparks crazy safety row over... OVEN GLOVES:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/636541/Oven-gloves-EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Those countries would then have a great deal of pressure applied by the Germans and other major exporters to the UK to toe the line or face the consequences. Let's not try to pretend the Germans don't effectively run the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This seems to be another assumption to add the list of many about what would happen to this trade deal. The point is that there is a lot of things that make it clear that a deal that doesn't impact on services is unlikely and since that's our biggest export it shouldn't be ignored.

What is we get a choice between a Canada style deal with products including or we get services but have to accept free movement? Even Germany might be willing to take a hit on some exports if they think they can attract more financial or technology services companies to Frankfurt and Berlin respectively. Services unevenly benefits us.

Anyway to balance out my article spam here is one that talks of the companies that think they'll benefit from leaving. Linking it because it's something Chris mentioned a couple of pages ago: https://next.ft.com/content/99e022ce...2-006d8d362ba3

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Are you having a laugh. Notice the date on that article? 26 Mar 2016. Today is the 24th. Anyhow isn't the Economist just a little biased?

Don't you think that the EU, especially Germany and France would be falling over themselves to negotiate a good trade deal with the UK? Someone touched on this a few pages back saying they could see a France, German and UK Bloc and I totally agree with that. More scaremongering in that rag I'm afraid.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's wrong because of the date stamp? I don't see why that matters. They seem to use the weekend date for their publication, no idea why.

The Economist is pro-EU yes but no-one else on here is publishing neutral sources. The Economist is hardly a sensationalist magazine is it.

Why would they? As the article states all 27 European nations have to agree, they may all want to put in provisions, and not all of them have trade deficits with the UK. We are dependent on services more than a lot of them are so well and what happens if we end up with a Canada deal that doesn't include them? That would be harmful to the economy.

You can't dismiss every concern as scaremongering and every source as a 'rag'.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No its good to have some opposing pov's with a basis in reality thanks Damien.

The services issue does disturb me too, we are unevenly balanced in that regard, and as our non services infrastructure isn't anything like it was pre- Common Market, it is something to consider.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What do you actually mean by 'tighten up our border and immigration controls'?

We are not in the Schengen Agreement, and check the passport of everyone who enters this country - if we have intelligence, we will not let suspected terrorists in/arrest them; if we don't have any intelligence on them, how do we know they are a threat?

What would you actually have the Border Agency do, in addition to what they do now?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is there any point to this thread? Everyone seems set in their views and is convincing no one ....

Maybe best to go out and campaign on the streets if you feel that strongly, whatever your view.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually, I am leaning towards voting to leave, but on the cusp, and if someone could provide factual information, it would influence me - however, it's seems to be mainly lack of substance emotive sweeping statements like 'oh noes, we will have an economic crash if we leave' from the Stay In group, or 'we can only have secure borders if we leave' from the Leavers, which neither side seems to want to substantiate, or if they do, they provide no detail or substance.

Both sides seem to be trading on fear, doubt, and uncertainty, so I feel like wishing a plague in both their houses...

I am watching Daily Politics, and the Brexit speaker conflates secure borders and not being able to kick out people who break our laws - I agree with the second point, but the first point is just a meaningless soundbite, because no one will give any details of how they would better secure our borders...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That I must agree with but immigration is foremost on peoples minds and it is being used as a lever by Brexit. Don't forget whichever side has to appeal to the masses if they wish to win and play on their fears.

I'm all for Brexit but not just on the issue of immigration. I'm a firm believer that it is the people of this country who should decide their own future without interference from Europe via their own elected government.

Yes- we have elected MEP's but they are a minority in the EU parliament and always will be they may be able to speak for Britain but can and do get overruled and outvoted by the other 27 countries unless they do backdoor deals with other nation states to get their backing.

This backdoor dealing may be giving away more of our sovreign rights but we will never know as it's all done behind closed doors. "Back me on this, I'll back you on that." I'd rather have Arthur Daley doing the deals thankyou. At least I knew he was a shady geezer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am not sure where you can get concrete facts unfortunately. This is partly because a lot of it is unknown. Pro-EU people can't say for sure if Cameron's deal will hold or what is in store for the future of the EU and Brexiters can't confirm the terms of any hypothetical trade deal.

I think Full Fact: https://fullfact.org/ is the least biased source I have seen. They have a number of articles that are inconvenient for both sides.

Now entering my biased mode I think the FT is good. The paper is pro-EU so keep that in mind but they've done a good job of presenting both sides of the debate IMO: https://next.ft.com/stream/topicsId/...2NzAy-VG9waWNz

For example they've given space to Brexit columnists and publish articles about the benefits of leaving (as I linked to before).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The could start by stopping people coming into the UK in the backs of lorries or do they have passports too? ;)

I imagine you, like nearly all of us, don't readily let strangers into our homes. We behave in this way not because they're all crooks, we all know that statistically the reverse is massively true. We do it because we have no idea who they are and we're aware that they may pose a risk. Why would we treat illegal migrants any differently? Why would them being 'unknown' be a reason for not having any concerns about their motives and intentions? To my mind, we ought to be far more careful about those who come here illegally for the very reason that they are unknown and have already broken the law by doing so.

That still, of course, leaves those who can obtain convincing forged documents or come here using bona fide documents but with ulterior motives but surely that fact isn't a reason for not closing off other routes for them to get in.

Clearly whatever border controls are in place in the UK aren't sufficient. Now of course that has nothing directly to do with Schengen and is an issue for HMG to tackle but I reckon there'd be far fewer migrants in Calais if there'd been checks at every border crossing between Calais and their points of entry into the EU. The unwillingness of the EU to accept what's patently obvious and change a flawed policy causing serious problems is great cause for concern IMHO and adds to the reasons we should get out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree but that would be true even if we were out of Europe though. Schengen is a stupid idea.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

See the rest of my post which deals with that but obviously crossed with yours in the ether. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This could have gone in a number of threads but I plumped for this one:

Linky

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh dear, the last endorsement I want is Trump's. :nutter:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cheers Donald, that's the 'remain' campaign home and dry ! :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Probably just balances out Bliar's endorsement for the stay campaign. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yean and that says a lot about him... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/itv-ne...ferendum-poll/
7 point lead for remain here. Thought I'd share the good news ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Already doing that. have been for months :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------

Services as in banks already have branches and/or headquarters in most EU countries. Why would that change? They've all made contingency plans as no doubt have the Bank of England in case there is a Brexit.

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

It's already been spelt out not just by me. We would not be obliged to let every Tom, Dick or Harry in just because they are in the EU. If we took that stand now the EU would be up in arms.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------

We would not be on this thread if we didn't 'feel that strongly' about it. Don't worry, I can't walk but campaign all over the net.

---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:48 ----------

Last paragraph. Of course you'll know. Vote leave and get our sovereignty back and you'll see just how much we have lost.

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Totally agree. I saw a map of it on the news earlier in green. We seem to be the only ones not in Schengen. See my problem is this. You're either IN the club or you're not. How would the Committee of your local club feel if you joined but only obeyed the rules and took part in the parts you agreed with. You'd be hauled before said Committee before you could say EU. There is no difference between that scenario and what the UK is doing in the EU.

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

Well another 20 got in this week and that was the 2nd lot in a few days. I rest the borders case.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thank you for not answering my question - I haven't seen it 'spelt out' before, which is why I asked; all I have seen in this thread is the general statement that 'we need stronger borders', with no specifics about what that means, or why we can't do other things now.

We are not obliged to let every Tom, Dick, and Harry now - we have border controls (not to be conflated with not being able to expel people, which I think we should be able to).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A major Tory donor urges David Cameron to resign after EU referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-eu-referendum

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If Brexit win then Cameron is dead man walking.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we shall see as l think currently its too close to call.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sure he'll step down if the outcome isn't what he wants, otherwise I expect he'll want to stay on for a good while then stand down so there can be a new leadership contest before the next election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Pretty much what I think most of us expect. Worse case for the Tories is if it's a close vote either way and they implode in on themselves.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To start with we will be able to close the EEA/EU channels at the ports so that every passport will be checked thoroughly and not fast tracked through the gates,EEA passengers are not checked as thoroughly as non EU passengers .
The main problem though is the sheer number of people arriving at our borders ,mostly from the EU making proper passport checks impossible .This report from the Public Accounts Committee is quite damning of our border controls and although not laying blame on EU membership it's fairly obvious that not having thousands of people rocking up with right of entry will make a huge difference to our ability to control who enters and who doesn't .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, you'd have thought so wouldn't you. We desperately need to get some control over who's coming into the UK and we can't do that whilst we're tied to the EU.

I still can't understand why the powers that be didn't give every country the right to put a ceiling on migration. Quite why they feel it ought to be a fundamental right for, in theory, millions of people to be able to decide to move to another country is beyond me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If the border controls can't cope now then how will they cope when the queues get longer with the removal of the EEA gates? As you said they struggle to deal with the amount of people coming to passport control as it is so taking longer on each passenger would make things worse.

Also aren't the EU gates there because we know these people don't need travel visas? They still check the passports, they still put them in the scanner thing if it's a modern one but they just don't have to check any visa requirements.

What would we do differently there or are we going to require additional checks/visas on people coming from Europe? If so then that could hurt tourism and we would get the same treatment on the way to Europe which would be a massive pain.

Is there even any evidence that EU citizens are the problem with the border controls?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Passengers from EEA countries are not subject to the same security checks as other passengers ,indeed it is set in the Immigration regulations 2006 that passengers from EEA countries should only be questioned when there is strong evidence that the passenger could be refused admission on the grounds of public policy,
public health or public security.In short there is an entire 31 page document stating that EEA passengers are treated differently to other passengers .By removing the EEA gates all passengers will be subject to the same checks ,might be slower but so what ,if it prevents would be terrorists entering the UK


IMMIGRATION DIRECTORATES' INSTRUCTIONS

4.2 Examination of EEA nationals
Pursuant to Schedule 2 powers transposed into the EEA Regulations (see paragraph 3) it is
appropriate for immigration officers to establish that a person seeking admission as an EEA
national is in possession of a valid national ID card or passport issued by an EEA state.
However, beyond this an EEA national should only be questioned where there is strong
reason to believe that there may be reasons to refuse admission on grounds of public policy,
public health or public security, including when the EEA national is subject to an extant
JULY 06 IDIs Ch 7 Sec 3 EEA Nationals & Family
Members
9
deportation order. Otherwise strict limits have been placed on the immigration officer's
examination of EEA nationals; as a result of judgments in the ECJ an immigration officer
may not require an EEA national to answer questions regarding the purpose and duration of
his journey or the financial means available to him (unless such information is relevant to the
right of admission of any non-EEA family members).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Typical lefty, if you don't believe what I say you're set in your views/ways so you need "shutting up". Leftys do not understand the world today, it's alien to them. They still think it's 1970. They still think they can stop nuclear weapons even though everyone has them.

Ever thought about a job with Amway? Although look out for time wasters (people you couldn't convince) or any other ponzie scheme.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair enough. So it would be possible to admit European citizens without a visa still?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Evening Twaddle, so glad you could join us ;)

Wasn't telling anyone to 'shut up'. Just pointing out that I don't think anybodies view on this thread has changed, so little point just agreeing with those you want to and ignoring those you don't, which many seem to be doing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My view has changed several times and am currently undecided, still annoyed with Dave and his lies but not furious enough to let it make my mind up unlike a few days ago. I've still not heard a convincing argument from either camp.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No one said they couldn't cope now but with what is being said they would be checked at both sides of the Channel because of our agreement with the French.

---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 ----------

Oh dear typical of someone who can't answer a point. I am, and always have been a 'Leftie' as you so delicately put it. Not everyone has nuclear weapons and as far as I'm aware only 2 countries in the EU have them, the UK and France.

According to a new report from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), nine nations — the United States, Russia, United Kingdom, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea — possess approximately 16,300 nuclear weapons. in total.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-...as-2014-6?IR=T So, no not everyone has them.

If you are going to make statements like this please check facts first.


Secondly, there is a common myth among Inners that being in the EU has kept peace for 60 years. The truth is that nuclear weapons, love them or hate them, have kept the peace. I'm not a fan of nuclear weapons myself.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Reasons why we should Leave the EU:

IMMIGRATION

Britain can never control immigration until it leaves the European Union, because freedom of movement gives other EU citizens an automatic right to live here.

The Remain Campaign would have us believe the Jungle would move to Dover. Our Agreement with France has nothing to do with the EU. The French have said this agreement would not be effected by a Brexit.

CRIME

The European Arrest Warrant allows British citizens to be sent abroad and charged for crimes in foreign courts, often for minor offences. Exit would stop this.

Though this is a good point for remaining it's nothing that can't be kept or renegotiated after a Brexit.

TRADE

Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example. Leaving would allow the UK to diversify its international links.

The In Campaign would have us believe we won't get a deal that suits us with the EU. Why not? How do they know?


LAW

Too many of Britain’s laws are made overseas by dictates passed down from Brussels and rulings upheld by the European Court of Justice. UK courts must become sovereign again and make our own laws.

JOBS

The danger to jobs has been over-exaggerated. By incentivising investment through low corporation tax and other perks Britain can flourish like the Scandinavian countries outside the EU.

The Remain Campaign say a Brexit could cost 3 million Jobs. Again, how do they know this? Do they have a crystal ball or are doing as they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum and being told by Downing Street like the big boss's were that they must make sure they won't leave?

vOICE

Britain does not need the EU to prosper internationally. By re-engaging with the Commonwealth the UK can have just as much clout as it does from inside the EU.

The Remain Campaign tell us our voice would be much smaller and no one would listen to a small island. Again I have to ask Why not? We have already proven what we can achieve on the world stage so why wouldn't they listen to us?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The PM programme on R4 has been running a Q & A piece each day with specialist correspondents answering questions on the EU membership and the consequences of a leave vote sent in by listeners. It seems very well balanced IMHO (Surprising for the Beeb) and at least gives some sensible answers.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't listen to radio much these days but it's hard to find a balanced view on the net.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because it's part of the process of working towards a one world government...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's either that or sheer lunacy...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sorted for you.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Without a doubt. In 1975 we all predicted what would happen with the EU. Common Market indeed! United States of Europe more like. Mass immigration. That's happening too. Loss of sovereignty to Brussels. Being ruled economically by Germany. Sound Familiar? Hey but they wouldn't listen so why will they listen now? Think the vote was 2/1 if memory serves. will be a lot closer this time though. And if it goes against Leave, what about the 49% who vote Leave? It's a very sizable minority if it turns out that way?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thats democracy for you. In the 1950s there was over half a million people came into this country from the Caribbean alone. Before that it was estimated that there were just 20,000 foreign nationals living in the UK. That was about 20 years before we joined the EU. And along came Enoch Powell and warned us......

Let's go back to the pre-1950s shall we. It was ever so peaceful, with continuous hot sunny days, running in the meadows picking flowers. We never used to have any wars, bomb shelters, rationing. Or to the 70's where we never used to have blackouts, unemployment or cold wars. It was all so much better then. This EU has got a lot to answer for.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tell that to the Bosnians and the CrimeansI seem to remember Thatcher ending the first two and Lech Walesa having a big hand in the third.
.......but feel free to credit the EU with all that :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Where to start, where to start ...

1. Plenty of Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973. Plenty of Brits live happily in countries all over the world who are not members of the EU. This is so far from being any kind of a problem, it's laughable that any Remainer would even bring it up. Makes you wonder whether even they know they're clutching at straws.

2. Border control arrangements between the UK and France are a bilateral arrangement and are nothing to do with the EU. Regardless of what any middle-ranking French politician may say, there is no legal, technical reason for that agreement to change should the UK exit the EU.

3. The European Arrest Warrant does not make it any easier or harder for us to deport anyone. On the other hand, our membership of the EU *does* make it rather harder for us to permanently exclude any EU citizen from our territory.

4. That's a pretty naff attempt at using percentages to mask the truth. Here's a more prescient statistic for you. The UK imports around €90 billion from Germany each year. It exports about €40 billion of goods to Germany. The UK is Germany's third-biggest export destination after the USA and France. Angela Merkel, BMW and VW are not going to allow trade barriers to upset that.

5. The European food hygiene regulations affected every small B&B in Britain. Previously it was only necessary to register as a food business and submit to inspection if your establishment was beyond a certain size; now, even if you only operate two rooms, for six months of the year, you have to register and your local council has to bear the expense of inspecting you. This entirely disproportionate rule, which superseded UK regulations that were far more reasonable, affects me, as an operator of a small B&B, and every user of a food business in my local authority area when the inspector is wasting his time in my family kitchen instead of in the back room of any other food establishment (such as a chippy or chinese takeaway) where there are exponentially more customers in any given week. How's that for starters?

6. This is not going to happen - get real.

7. The point is to re-gain control of immigration policy. Once we achieve that, we can allow people in according to the needs of our economy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Those immigrants were brought in by Labour to fill the jobs our people wouldn't do. If any one is to blame it's them.

Never in my life have I read so much drivel! The 50's and 60 were good years. Even McMillan himself said we never had it so good. It wasn't until Wilson really that things started to go down the gurgler. Oh his first term was ok but from '68 it was all downhill. Again you have them to blame for the treatment of the Workforce at the time. We had no choice but to strike for better conditions and pay. This has sod all to do with the EU though so don't know why you even mention it. I suggest you research why the '70s happened and why these immigrants were brought in then come back and see if you write the same drivel.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It does make me laugh that some folks seem to cite past and current problems the UK faces as reasons to do nothing about the huge new issues affecting us. Yes we have plenty of home made problems and have made big mistakes in the past but that isn't a reason for not trying to tackle the worst effects of the problems being created for us either directly or indirectly as a result of our EU membership. If we feel our govt. isn't performing we can do something decisive about it. If we feel the EU is imposing unnecessary or unwarranted rules upon us we can do precious little as has been proved time and time again ever since we joined. I can't understand why anyone would rather be increasingly ruled by faceless suits in Brussels than by those who are directly accountable to us.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indirectly what Thatcher did had quite a bit to do with the EU and their red tape but she was more interested in battering the Unions. Look at the damage that has done. 0 hours contracts for one, the scourge of Britain. Poor working conditions like in these big places like Amazon for another. Shorter breaks. No more canteen facilities in factories, it's all vending machines. However that is irrelevant. The EU started getting too big for their boots in the mid '80s. It stopped being a Common Market and became a Political Union. This is when the problems all started. Has nothing at all to do with pre '80s

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course it was :)

Average working week - 48 hours (37 today)
Average annual holidays including bank hols - 16 days (minimum 28 today)
Cost of a pint of milk £1.12 at todays rates (50p today but a lot less in supermarkets)

Obviously there were somethings better and I have been selective but as I said, it was all long summer days picking flowers in the meadow.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the matter :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't know where you get that from. Average working week I can go with but that's due to 0 hour contracts.

Milk? 5p a pint. what's that in todays prices think you'll find a lot more. And if you believe things were dearer then you live in a dream. £21 my first wage in 1971 and I thought I was rich. The only reason things like Shoes and Clothes are cheaper is cos they're made by bairns in sweatshops who are lucky if they get a £ a week. If that's progress you can keep it.

Holidays. I don't know anyone who gets that. 2 weeks annual leave =14 days or actually 10 days if you work 5 days and don't count Sat and Sun. Good Friday and Easter Monday off 12. Christmas day, Boxing Day and New Years Day (2nd Jan if in Scotland) gives you 15 days a year. If you are lucky enough to get bank holidays other than those mentioned you could argue for 18 days. So who's getting the 28 minimum days?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bircho ... A minor housekeeping point, but could you please stop posting your replies within quotes. It makes further responses to you much more fiddly than it needs to be. Just type underneath the quote box, it's perfectly easy for the rest of us to follow which points you're responding to.

In reply to your earlier comments, I'm not sure how you thought your assertion that there were no Brits in Spain prior to 1973 due to Franco, was backed up with statistics about property ownership. It's a complete non-sequitur.

The fact is, Spain had a thriving British expatriate community prior to 1973, just as many non-EU countries have them today. Property ownership rules might change; fair enough. The whole referendum question is a balance between the benefits of membership versus the costs. My basic objection to the EU is on grounds of democracy and sovereignty. Such things cannot be valued against the cost of having a Spanish mortgage.

As for UK/France border arrangements, well yes, I know it as definitely as it is possible to know anything (including the continuance of the arrangements in the long term, even if Britain remains in the EU). As I said earlier, these are bilateral arrangements, unconnected with the EU. There is no reason in law or logic for them to change and, frankly, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

Regarding exports, well an immediate 7pc drop is a far bigger deal than you are portraying it to be. And yes, when we're talking figures this large, I see no problem rounding to the nearest 5. I note you didn't object to me rounding up the UK's export figure in the same sentence, by a somewhat larger amount.

Regarding food hygiene rules, well you might be confident there are no rats in my kitchen if the rules were effective. Unfortunately, economic reality means I personally am only going to be visited once every five years or so, as I am small and therefor a low priority. The local authority has to visit all these places, incurring the costs as they go, yet each individual premises is inspected so infrequently as to make the whole process worthless. In practice, dirty kitchens are uncovered the same way they always were, by zeroing in on clusters of food poisoning after the fact. The difference now, however, is that the council has wasted a lot of money on pointless inspections in the meantime.

Regarding negotiating times: the period is set out in the Treaty of Lisbon and is 2 years.

The terms of any future deal will be no worse than WTO rules and will be at least as good as those enjoyed by Canada, Norway or Switzerland. I know precedent is awkward for Remainers, but it exists nevertheless.

Regarding immigration: what an absurd assertion to make. Immediate suspension of the right of any EU citizen to settle in the UK and take a job is a pretty fundamental change to the UK's ability to police its borders and manage its workforce. It is plain daft to claim none of these powers would be used as the economy required.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Using the working time directive as an example of why we should stay in the EU is not really helping your case imo ,it is the most complicated and useless piece of garbage to come out of Brussels ,why make rules that can be opted out of

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The UK seems to do a lot of opting out of things in the EU. Erm, pardon my ignorance, but, exactly why are we in the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As said Milk would be £1.12 per pint today based on 1952 prices.

The median wage of a man in 1952 was £9 per week which is £252.69 in todays prices. The median wage today is £517.

Every employee or worker must have at least 28 days holiday (pro-rata for part time employees) by Law including statutory public holidays (bank holidays). That is 4 weeks leave plus the 8 stats. Are you saying you work for someone and only get 15 days holiday a year?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No I don't work my friend but my son doesn't get 28 days a year. I was also talking about the 70s not 1952. Wasn't born for another 2 years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ok. The working time directive gave the right to every employee:

· A maximum working week of 48 hours
· A rest period of 11 consecutive hours a day
· A rest break when the day is longer than six hours
· A minimum of one rest day per week
· The statutory right to four weeks' holiday

It was introduced by the EU in 1992 but the UK did not introduce until 1998. In 1996 the Government took the EU to court to try and stop the introduction and lost. The Government was supported by the opposition.

Before this time, the number of holiday was written into Law by a 1938 act which basically said you had 7 days holiday (extended to 8 in 1978 by the introduction of the May Day holiday). Outside of that it was up to your employer to decide the number of holidays that should be given. The Government argued this was a burden on Companies and it should be up to individual companies led by market forces that should decide how many holidays you should have.

There was also nothing to indicate you should have a break (the WTD introduced 10 mins for 4 hours worked; 30 mins if more than 6 hours worked).

So this was the "garbage" that was introduced and would not have been introduced but for the EU. Are you saying we should abolish it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because a gang of traitorous, Britain-loathing politicians wanted to end our existence as a nation state and sold the European project to us as a "common market", in the full knowledge that that wasn't its aim, and that the British public wouldn't vote for it if they understood what it was meant to be about.

They took us in without a referendum, then held one on staying in two years later, using the inbuilt bias towards status quo that comes with every referendum to better their chances of getting popular support for it.

That referendum result has been used to justify everything we have signed up to in the EU ever since, with occasional opt-outs to stop national outrage getting too loud.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think your son needs to check his Contract of Employment. Feel free to PM me on that matter. Your £21 in 1972 would be worth £265.43 at todays prices.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm saying that the British public should elect their governments, and thereafter they deserve whatever their government gives them.

The presupposition in your position is that the British government is somehow not competent and requires to be overruled.

As a British citizen and a democrat, who recognises the right of the Government to govern, even when it is run by a party I did not choose, I find your position mildly offensive.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So how many Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973?

I think a vastly overlooked fact is that there are as many British citizens living in Europe as there are non British European Citizens living in the UK.

Interesting comments about WTO. Norway pays as much into the EU as we do (actually more) but has to put up with a lot of the rules we have opted out of. Simiarly Switzerland. Think there is much written about this elsewhere.

But just for info, so that we can aspire, these are the European Countries that are not in the EU and the current agreement that they have with the EU.

EEA countries - not in the EU but in Schengen:
Switzerland (Technically also not in the EEA, but is for most practical purposes, and is in Schengen)
Liechtenstein
Norway
Iceland

Micronations not technically in the EU but have monetary agreement with the EU and open borders:
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Vatican City

Central European Free Trade Agreement:
Kosovo
Serbia
Albania
Montenegro
Macedonia
Bosnia & Herzegovena
Moldova (also in GUAM, see below)

GUAM Organization for Democracy and Economic Development
Georgia
Ukraine

The negotiating time you mention is to the time frame for coming out of the EU not for negotiating a new trade agreement.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes it's odd how a lot of people love to moan about our governments whilst at least having the power to overturn them (or secure mid term changes in policy) on a regular basis, whilst at the same time supporting the imposition of laws, rules and regulations from Eurolalaland which they can do nothing about. Presumably they're so entirely confident that everything which ever emanates from Brussels will be good for them and the UK (as opposed to countless other nations with conflicting interests) that they won't want to vote anyone out... How's that for nuts?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is your position and I accept and understand it. My original point on the WTD was that the supposition that everything that comes out of Brussels must be bad. I asked for any that made anyones life worse, and the only one so far is about getting hotel and restaurant kitchens inspected once every five years because it is a bit of an inconvenience.

There is always open skies (25 million visits to Europe by UK citizens last year compared with 10 million in 1980); mobile phone roaming charges, credit card fees - all bad I tell thee :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

When I worked in the hotel trade I was working till 11 pm at night and starting again at 7am the next day. This was 1997 - 2000. Are you telling me they were breaking the law? I was only part time meant to do 16-20 hours a week but ended up doing more. I've seen me do a 7-3 shift without a break on several occasions during those dates and the Union said NOHING about it.

---------- Post added at 15:43 ---------- Previous post was at 15:41 ----------

On electing our own Governments: We elect them to do what's best for the UK, not what the EU tell us is best for the UK. Yet another reason to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But our Government has a vote on the items that come out of Brussels and many of them have to be unanimous. There are a number that are by majority vote - that is a majority of other elected Governments. And even then they still have to pass the (elected) European parliament.

Even if the conception is they are put together by suits in Brussels (known as civil servants ...... who generally have the same qualifications as the people who put are Laws together also generally known as civil servants).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly right. However, those of us who were politically astute at the time could see this for ourselves and voted against it. They did not tell us it was going to be anything other than a Common Market and the voters fell for it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I spent 20 years working in hotels so I know your background! I presume you meant started at 7 am and not 7 pm! That would not be against the WTD because you started your shift at 3 pm to 11 pm and then next shift was 7 am to 3 pm. So long as you had an 11 hours rest break before the start of the first shift and another 11 hours after the end of second shift then you are within WTD. What they couldn't do (and in all my time never did do) was finish you at 3 pm and then put you on a night shift starting at 11 pm.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not everything that comes out of Brussels is bad. No, they got a perfectly good moterway that leads to the ferry to Britain.

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

when I went to school that is only 8 hours break at the end of the shift that finished at 11 pm. The shift after it was fine plenty rest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You're surely not trying to claim that the power we have to influence our elected representatives somehow equates to the power our MEP's have in the EU are you? One of the biggest problems of the EU (far more serious than roaming charges) is the complexity of just about everything, the time it takes them to make/implement decisions on everything and their refusal to accept what's blindingly obvious for example Schengen/migration/terrorism, Greece, the Euro etc. You could not wish for better examples of the EU's inherent flaws than recent tragic events in Greece (the economy & migration) and Ukraine (membership overtures leading to Russian invasion) to mention two examples.

No not everything from the EU is bad. As I've said many times before the EU could be a wonderful thing but time and time again, due in large part to it's very structure, it's shown itself to be slow to act in a crisis and virtually incapable of meaningful reform in key areas e.g. CAP. Why is it that in order to get the benefits of what the EU should have been, we have to accept the one-size-fits-all nonsense they're obsessed with? Why can't we be part of a free trading and culturally sharing Europe without having to be homogenised?

If the Falklands had been EU territory I reckon they'd still be arguing over what to do about the Argentinian invasion. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That figure is proving rather hard to get at, however so far I have established that the Spanish population in the UK was 58,000 in 1973, and the UK population figure, while not specified, was clearly significant enough (and likely near enough parity), that the two governments bilaterally agreed to grant each other's citizens access to their domestic health services.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...201973&f=false

Also according to that link, a bilateral agreement preventing double taxation of Spaniards in the UK and Brits in Spain, was also signed in 1973,which does begin to pour cold water on your earlier suggestion that exiting the EU automatically means Brits visiting other European countries will lose advantageous tax agreements.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes it is because most that legislation can be opted out of by the employees on a majority vote in the workplace ,it can be very limiting as far as working hours are concerned and costly for the employer and employee alike.Also if you think that we only have that legislation because we joined the EU then you are mistaken ,most of the developed world has that type of legislation ,indeed most of the legislation that comes out of Europe is basically the same as elsewhere in the developed world ,safety standards come to mind .In short we do not need nor ever have needed a European super state to give us modern legislation,rights or freedoms

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why is it limiting for the employee? In terms of 48 hour working week, the employee can opt out if they wish to. Costly for the employer? You work for Sports Direct?

If you think it would have been introduced without the EU, then why did the Government at the time try to take the EU to court to stop it coming in?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

because that includes overtime and therefore money earned ,employees cannot opt out individually it has to be a collective within the company .When i was driving for a living our company opted out of the night time working hours because it was far too restrictive for employees and employers .What's wrong with employees working as many hours as they want (within H&S restrictions),i certainly do not need an unelected official telling me how much money i can earn

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:49 ----------

Incidentally when i was driving i used the GB driving hours regulations instead of the EU driving hours regulations because it meant i could drive for longer and therefore earn more

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That health agreement was to allow Spanish citizens in the UK access to the NHS and in return Spain wouldn't try to regain Gibraltar and also allowed Gibraltar to become part of the EC.

Think you are getting what happens with double taxation rules mixed up. The UK has double taxation rules with virtually the whole western world. Basically, it means that if you are taxed in Spain at one rate, you can deduct the tax you have paid in Spain against your UK tax allowance (and similarly Spanish citizens can do the same from UK earnings). That is nothing to do with the EU. There are no income tax rules within the EU and even if there was, we would still be entitled to opt out. It is in the treatys already.

For a UK tax payer, as it stands, if you rent a property in Spain the allowances you can offset are very similar to that of the UK and in Spain the tax rate is 19%. There are, however, other taxes you can offset as well that you pay in Spain so you can offset the full amount. It gets complex!

At the current time, all let property in the UK is at the basic rate (20%) however, this is changing come next month and the rate you pay is based on your income rate so if you are a higher rate tax payer that is the liability you will have to pay (ie the difference between 40% and 19% in Spain.

When Spain joined the EU in 1986, and various decress since then, the rules became if you rent a property and you are not a citizen of the EU, then you pay 22% of all income. That means you cannot offset the costs against the income - its a huge difference.

I agree that will only affect the 200,000 Brits with property rentals in Spain, but the amounts involved will be significant. I cannot see Spain changing their Laws to suit the Brits to be honest. In fact, the Spainish Government is probably rubbing its hands together ready for a windfall (and if people choose to sell then they will still get their 8.5% property tax (paid by the buyer so they definitely get their money) or if people choose not sell but also not to rent they still get their INIR tax so they won't be bothered).

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Contracts of Employment are individual. Employees can opt out individually if they wish. Even if the company recognises unions for purposes of that clause, you can still opt out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing to do with contracts of employment,having just checked the rules and there are sections that can be individually opted out but some areas remain a collective agreement .The opt out was included by the UK government specifically not to impinge on workers rights to earn more money through overtime evenso when a worker does work more that 48hrs a record has to be kept and 60hrs is the maximum worked out as an average over 3 months allowing workers to work further longer hours during busy times ........like i said ,a pointless piece of legislation

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nonsense - as you would know if you read the source I provided. The health agreement was reciprocal. And if you have a source that shows Spain had to "allow" Gibraltar to become part of the EEC along with the UK, do please provide it. Spain has pressed its claim over Gibraltar continuously since Franco, which tends to preclude the possibility that its sovereignty was somehow settled between the governments in 1973.

The point I was making was a lot simpler than you're treating it. It is simply this: bilateral agreements between European countries have been commonplace over a great many years. It is the EU that is the anomaly in historical terms. If Spain and the UK can reach such an agreement, despite Spain being under a dictatorship and pressing territorial claims over Gibraltar, then there is no reason to think similar arrangements can't be reached post-Brexit.

In fact I find the prospect of the UK forging relations bilaterally, tailored to the interests of us and the third party, rather exciting. Much better than the EU's one-size-fits-nobody approach.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tories still tearing themselves apart; whatever the result of the Referendum, it's worth it just for this. Boris is the new anti-Christ apparantly....
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...r-times-attack

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm curious to know, when are you going to realise that the Tory party is a sideshow in this? There is a serious constitutional debate going on here, yet you don't seem to be able to rise above the Punch and Judy show that is regular British politics.

Don't you think it's about time you engaged in the actual debate?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK then. The NHS would be under threat with Brexit,
Jeremy Hunt says so, so it must be true.... ;)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...at-from-brexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Everything is under threat according to them if we leave the EU. The trick is sorting the lies from the truth. The NHS would surely benefit from more money with what we'll save by not being in the EU.

Other things are being banded around by the In Campaign that are frightening to those not in the know. Take the terrorist threat for example. They claim it would be raised if we leave. I disagree with this as some of these terrorists actually hold EU passports. We would tighten our border controls, however, it has emerged that Labour have accused the Tories of cutting back on border control to save money. How convenient when there is a referendum on EU membership in the offing. Surely if the threat is as bad as they claim, it will be better to spend more money on border control?

This is obvious scaremongering to force a remain vote. See todays news.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The NHS will benefit by not being put under so much strain by ever increasing and unstoppable numbers of EU migrants (for the purposes of this debate) and those who choose to pop over the channel to get some free healthcare. The NHS is being bled dry and if we want to preserve anything like it we have to, amongst many other things, be able to control who accesses it.

When it comes to scaremongering, yes it is happening on both sides but the IN group are taking it to a new level. They'll be telling us we won't have enough air if we leave next.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Questions about the NHS would be: How much demand is placed by EU citizens? How much in taxes to they contribute? How many work in the NHS? God knows how we work all that out.