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-   -   Unstoppable migration? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33698108)

techguyone 21-12-2015 12:16
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
How strange, maybe the migrants refugees want to take their chances the backdoor way, fancy that... :shocked:

Taf 21-12-2015 12:46
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...er-agency.html

Osem 21-12-2015 12:51
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Yes that would be a total surprise wouldn't it, economic migrants trying it on, forged papers readily available to anyone who can pay, but don't worry there is no significant risk... :rolleyes:

Let's be honest, few people would prefer to spend months even years in camps like that only to be sent home some time down the line to a large pile of ruins, no jobs and quite possibly decades of instability, resentment and worse. If we can understand that surely we can understand the hugely powerful instincts which are at work when large numbers of desperate people are on the move. If the EU accepts that it can't give refuge to all the world's needy, at what point are they going to stop trying to do so and what measures are they going to take to stem the flow they've helped to create? There doesn't appear to be a Plan A let alone a Plan B.

Sirius 21-12-2015 13:27
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35813774)
Next they will tell us Bears poo in the woods. I have been saying this since the start of this latest economic migrants rush looking for easy money in the EU. IS terrorists can travel right across the EU without any real risk of being captured and they can use this rush of economic migrants as a cover.

Ramrod 21-12-2015 23:19
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Germans Stock Up on Weapons for Self-Defense
Quote:

The scramble to acquire weapons comes amid an indisputable nationwide spike in migrant-driven crime, including rapes of German women and girls on a shocking scale, as well as physical assaults, stabbings, home invasions, robberies and burglaries — in cities and towns throughout the country.

German authorities, however, are going to great lengths to argue that the German citizenry's sudden interest in self-defense has nothing whatsoever to do with mass migration into the country, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

The spike in violent crimes committed by migrants has been corroborated by a leaked confidential police report, which reveals that a record-breaking 38,000 asylum seekers were accused of committing crimes in the country in 2014. Analysts believe this figure — which works out to more than 100 crimes a day — is only a fragment: many crimes are not reported.

"Anyone who asks for the reasons for the surge in weapons purchases encounters silence." — Süddeutsche Zeitung
:(

ianch99 21-12-2015 23:32
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Also loved this one from the well respected Gatestone Institute

Belgium Will Become an Islamic State

and the ever popular:

Iran Taking Over Latin America

Ramrod 22-12-2015 00:43
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
You are taking the mick but I don't understand why :confused:

techguyone 22-12-2015 00:53
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I think for some of us, the very idea that these people would be anything but angels is just simply not possible. I don't understand that philosophy either. Time will tell.
Burying head in the sand or fingers in ears singing LaLaLa very loudly won't change that fact, let's revisit this in say... 6 months time & see what the crime stats say.

Osem 22-12-2015 14:09
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813896)
I think for some of us, the very idea that these people would be anything but angels is just simply not possible. I don't understand that philosophy either. Time will tell.
Burying head in the sand or fingers in ears singing LaLaLa very loudly won't change that fact, let's revisit this in say... 6 months time & see what the crime stats say.
Quite. They've had their brains washed by the PC brigade who routinely conflate any criticism of immigration policy with latent racism, xenophobia and far right extremism. Of course if they had a credible argument for disproving the assertion that a proportion of these migrants are going to cause us serious problems and a great many more are going to prove a considerable burden in other ways, they'd use it. The haven't so they can't, relying instead on name calling to stifle the debate they know they can't win. Far easier to call people names, selectively quote statistics and avoid any reference to any of the numerous cases in which migrants and even asylum seekers have taken advantage of their new host societies, committed serious crimes, refused to integrate or whatever.

Frankly I'd have more respect for them if they desisted with the token denial and chose to argue instead that it was a price worth paying in order to fulfil our humanitarian obligations to the many. Personally, I don't have a major problem with helping the needy, I just don't think the way to do that is to slowly ruin our own society in the process. Allowing vast numbers of people to move where they want to go is a recipe for disaster in so many ways, not the least of which is the cost to their own nations as the better off and most highly motivated exit for pastures new, leaving the most vulnerable behind to their fate.

I heard that the Syrian refugees coming here are being given 5 year visas but does anyone really expect them all to go back to Syria when that time is up? They will have built lives here, had children, put kids through school, got jobs etc. etc. etc. Can you imagine the scenes 5 years down the line when people who've built new lives here are asked to leave and go back to lives of uncertainty? What about those who've had children here in the meantime? I reckon most of them are here to stay yet you'll never hear anyone official acknowledge that likelihood, preferring instead to peddle the myth that they'll all return home rebuild their homelands. If I were in their shoes I know where I'd want to be.

We need to understand what's happening here and the forces which are being unleashed. There's huge resentment building up and no matter what the great and the good (usually very well insulated from the direct effects of their policies) like to tell us, unless they put a stop to this there's going to be an increasing amount of trouble throughout Europe and on its borders.

As regards crime:

Quote:
The MPS (Metropolitan Police Service) crime recording system can not be searched to obtain details of someone’s status as a ‘foreign national’, only the nationality they give when the come to the attention of the Police. As a consequence there is no way to distinguish between residents of the UK (regardless of citizenship) and visitors from other countries.

Nationality is not a mandatory field in the MPS crime recording system and as such is not always completed or accused persons do not disclose this information. It is self defined and is a free text box. Nationality data is therefore only comprised of what was available to search.
http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/200...tistics-abuse/

ianch99 22-12-2015 16:19
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35813960)
Quite. They've had their brains washed by the PC brigade who routinely conflate any criticism of immigration policy with latent racism, xenophobia and far right extremism. Of course if they had a credible argument for disproving the assertion that a proportion of these migrants are going to cause us serious problems and a great many more are going to prove a considerable burden in other ways, they'd use it. The haven't so they can't, relying instead on name calling to stifle the debate they know they can't win. Far easier to call people names, selectively quote statistics and avoid any reference to any of the numerous cases in which migrants and even asylum seekers have taken advantage of their new host societies, committed serious crimes, refused to integrate or whatever.

Frankly I'd have more respect for them if they desisted with the token denial and chose to argue instead that it was a price worth paying in order to fulfil our humanitarian obligations to the many. Personally, I don't have a major problem with helping the needy, I just don't think the way to do that is to slowly ruin our own society in the process. Allowing vast numbers of people to move where they want to go is a recipe for disaster in so many ways, not the least of which is the cost to their own nations as the better off and most highly motivated exit for pastures new, leaving the most vulnerable behind to their fate.

I heard that the Syrian refugees coming here are being given 5 year visas but does anyone really expect them all to go back to Syria when that time is up? They will have built lives here, had children, put kids through school, got jobs etc. etc. etc. Can you imagine the scenes 5 years down the line when people who've built new lives here are asked to leave and go back to lives of uncertainty? What about those who've had children here in the meantime? I reckon most of them are here to stay yet you'll never hear anyone official acknowledge that likelihood, preferring instead to peddle the myth that they'll all return home rebuild their homelands. If I were in their shoes I know where I'd want to be.

We need to understand what's happening here and the forces which are being unleashed. There's huge resentment building up and no matter what the great and the good (usually very well insulated from the direct effects of their policies) like to tell us, unless they put a stop to this there's going to be an increasing amount of trouble throughout Europe and on its borders.

As regards crime:



http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/200...tistics-abuse/
Try coming up with a concrete, positive suggestion on how these refugees can be helped close to where they live instead of endlessly complaining.

If half the energy was put into a coherent, well thought through plan to home these people in the countries near where they originate from, than is put into complaining that the migrants are coming "over here" to steal our benefits, rape our women or commit Jihadi terror, we would be in a far better position.

techguyone 22-12-2015 16:28
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
What's your coherent well thought plan?

ianch99 22-12-2015 18:21
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813971)
What's your coherent well thought plan?
I posted it many weeks ago on this thread ..

Osem 22-12-2015 18:55
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813971)
What's your coherent well thought plan?
:rofl:

ianch99 22-12-2015 20:13
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35813995)
:rofl:
At least I have one :rofl: :rofl:

Ramrod 22-12-2015 22:51
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813969)
Try coming up with a concrete, positive suggestion on how these refugees can be helped close to where they live instead of endlessly complaining.
Are you serious?! Try reading my posts (#1000 fyi) instead of just sneering at them. :rolleyes:
The refugees don't want to live near their origins, they want to live in Europe.

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813969)
complaining that the migrants are coming "over here" to steal our benefits, rape our women or commit Jihadi terror, we would be in a far better position.
Fairly valid complaint. Have you looked at the situation in Sweden or noticed what happened in France?

Ramrod 30-12-2015 17:37
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Mass Migration Pushing UK Wages Down
Quote:
The growth in wages for UK workers is set to stall at just two per cent next year thanks to the large number of migrant workers waiting to fill vacancies
According to separate figures, the number of non-UK nationals in the workforce has rocketed from 986,000 in 1997 to 3.22 million now, thus making up more than 10 per cent of Britain’s workforce.

Ignitionnet 30-12-2015 17:59
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35814914)
Kinda inevitable given the below.

Quote:
Over the past 12 months, almost three-quarters of new jobs created went to non-UK nationals, according to official figures – 326,000, compared with the 122,000 jobs taken by UK workers.
Simple supply and demand. Although I'm sure the more politically correct will either try and deny it or say it's a necessary price to pay for cultural enrichment and essential for some kind of ponzi scheme theory of how to run an economy.

Property owners will I'm sure be happy also. Between government wheezes to prop prices up and ongoing importation of demand for housing alongside home factors alongside housebuilding being heavily down to a private sector that will obviously not fulfil demand as it'd be less profitable to they should be fine for a while longer.

roughbeast 03-01-2016 13:47
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I wonder how many people here recommending that we send refugees back to the war zones or allow them to perish at sea are also the same people who insist we are a Christian country.

A good re-read of the parable of The Good Samaritan might be in order here, even for atheists like me: 1. because that might guide so-called Christians to offer help to those who are suffering and 2. because the parable is a timely reminder that the hated Samaritans were also capable of great humanity.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35814919)
Kinda inevitable given the below.



Simple supply and demand. Although I'm sure the more politically correct will either try and deny it or say it's a necessary price to pay for cultural enrichment and essential for some kind of ponzi scheme theory of how to run an economy.

Property owners will I'm sure be happy also. Between government wheezes to prop prices up and ongoing importation of demand for housing alongside home factors alongside housebuilding being heavily down to a private sector that will obviously not fulfil demand as it'd be less profitable to they should be fine for a while longer.
The undercutting of wages can be stopped overnight if the government actually enforced the existing minimum wage and its proposed 'living wage'.

It is obvious why local workers won't take the 'less than minimum wage' jobs. It doesn't pay enough to keep a family at the level they are accustomed to. For European migrants it is a different matter. Initially at least, they are mostly youngsters prepared to live in crowded conditionals with minimum overheads. This is still better than they might be used to back home and the jobs are vacant.

Properly enforce the minimum wage with determined detection and punitive fines and we might find that local workers fill the jobs instead. Migration of the sort we are discussing will slump rapidly.

I have a theory on this Igi.

I believe that the government has systematically avoided anything that really decreases immigration because it relies upon mass immigration to rescue us from recession. It is no mistake that immigration is unsustainable high. Immigration boosts demand, business start ups and the revenue stream. It is not austerity that has rescued our economy, even with lower corporation tax. It is immigration.

Of course this is unsustainable because the effects upon our society. even though most immigrant families integrate by the second or third generation. Too many too fast is damaging. Also the new, young and vigorous immigrants will eventually have families and will age. They will eventually contribute no more than the indigenous population. The Tories care not a jot about that. All they are concerned about is the next election and their economic credentials. They will sustain the lie about austerity as long as they can and will continue to lie about their dependence on high migration.

What I find so sickening is that the government has declined to invest its increased tax receipts in the services of those areas under most pressure from immigration. Some families have immigrated too, not all immigrants are youngsters, and of course the NHS and other services are really stretched already.

Osem 04-01-2016 10:45
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Sweden has introduced identity checks for travellers from Denmark in an attempt to reduce the number of migrants arriving in the country.

All travellers wanting to cross the Oresund bridge by train or bus, or use ferry services, will be refused entry without the necessary documents.

Rail commuters heading to Sweden will now have to change trains at Copenhagen Airport and go through ID checkpoints.

Sweden received more than 150,000 asylum applications in 2015.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35218921

Quote:
Under the new Swedish law brought in late last year, transport companies will be fined 50,000 Swedish krona (£4,000; €5,400) if travellers to Sweden do not have a valid photo ID.

The Swedish government secured a temporary exemption from the European Union's open-border Schengen agreement, in order to impose the border controls.

Last month Sweden's state-owned train operator SJ announced it would stop services to and from Denmark because it could not carry out identity checks demanded by the new law.

To comply with the regulations, fencing has been erected around one of the platforms at the railway station at Copenhagen's Kastrup Airport.
How totally unexpected.

Taf 04-01-2016 12:33
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
My Swedish friends have been waiting for this to happen for months. In fact not just waiting but campaigning actively.

Ignitionnet 04-01-2016 13:22
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
In other news.

I foresee UKIP making some hay with this. Quite rightly so may I add. Our immigration system is a mess and the root of it lies with the EU requiring free movement between states that are too economically divergent.

Turkey next. Free movement for 78 million people, a PPP GDP per capita in between Bulgaria and Romania at less than half ours, a nominal GDP per capita somewhere between 30 and 45% of ours, huge inequality and evidence of providing ISIL military and civilian supplies, alongside active military action in Syria against those fighting ISIL, while persecuting their brethren within Turkey.

Turkey should be kicked out of NATO and be in receipt of economic sanctions and international pariah status, not cash and a fast track into the EU.

---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35815532)
My Swedish friends have been waiting for this to happen for months. In fact not just waiting but campaigning actively.
Wow. Bet they were popular. Swedish government were literally in tears at being unable to handle the influx of refugees. Never mind the impact of their result on ordinary Swedes.

Sweden is the only western nation, as far as I'm aware, forecast to drop in the human development index over the next 15 years.

Can't think what that could be related to. Just exhibiting the same level of denial as the Swedish government and, apparently, much of the country.

Osem 04-01-2016 14:25
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35815532)
My Swedish friends have been waiting for this to happen for months. In fact not just waiting but campaigning actively.
I guess they don't like the idea that just about anyone can just turn up at the border and expect to be taken in...

Taf 04-01-2016 14:54
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
The attitude of the Swedish government has been bizarre to say the least.

"People just don't talk about the impact of uncontrolled immigration despite the rising crime, especially that against our young women".

"You just do not see young women out on their own any more after dark, even in busy places".

"To report an incident caused by an immigrant, is to mark yourself as a racist, a radical racist, and the police ignore you automatically".

"Questions to our local representatives are futile if there is any hint of perceived racism".

"There is no integration. There is separatism. They do not want to live with us. All they appear to do is demand more and more resources to make them more independent of us".

"Why do they come here when so many obviously hate us, our way of life, and our climate?"

"My son's Christian Club offered them gifts, all were opened and rejected".

"We were a country with no major religious beliefs, but now we are becoming a country of muslim belief and practices".

Osem 04-01-2016 15:04
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
The attitude of plenty of politicians and governments in regard to this matter has been and still is bizarre IMHO. If ever there was a disaster in the making this is one but there are still those with eyes shut, fingers in ears, shouting la, la, la...

Osem 04-01-2016 18:02
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Denmark has tightened its border controls with Germany, hours after Sweden imposed similar measures to deter migrants entering from Denmark.

Danish Prime Minister Lars Loekke Rasmussen said the decision was "not a happy moment" but Denmark "must respond" to Sweden's restrictions.

Danish police will carry out border spot checks for the next 10 days.

The two countries are the latest to impose controls in Europe's Schengen passport-free travel area.

In a letter to the European Commission, Inger Stojberg, Denmark's integration minister, said the controls would focus initially on the border with Germany but may be extended to all of Denmark's borders.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35222015

nomadking 05-01-2016 00:13
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Just five arrests have been made by German police after central Cologne was transformed into a war-zone on New Year’s Eve, as an estimated 1,000 migrants celebrated by launching fireworks into crowds and sexually assaulting German women caught up in the chaos.


Link
Quote:
Cologne police chief Wolfgang Albers says witnesses described the assaults as coming from a group of up to 1,000 men whose appearance indicated they were of "Arab or North African origin."
Some 60 criminal complaints have so far been filed, including one allegation of rape.
Quote:
The police union said of the incidents: “This is a completely new dimension of violence. This is something we have not known”.
Looks like they and other European countries are going to have to get used to it. Of course Eastern European countries won't be that affected as they are are not going there and/or are not being let in.

If the authorities are able to hide something of this scale, even only just for a few days, just imagine what else they are hiding.

Ramrod 05-01-2016 22:27
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I read about this in Breitbart a few days ago but didn't bother to post it here on CF as the usual suspects would have just dismissed this news as fake because of the source. It's finally reached the mainstream media so here you go: Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
Cologne inquiry into 'coordinated' New Year's Eve sex attacks
Quote:
The mayor of Cologne has summoned police for crisis talks after about 80 women reported sexual assaults and muggings by men on New Year's Eve.

The scale of the attacks on women at the city's central railway station has shocked Germany. About 1,000 drunk and aggressive young men were involved.

City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.

Women were also targeted in Hamburg.

But the Cologne assaults - near the city's iconic cathedral - were the most serious, German media report. At least one woman was raped, and many were groped.

Most of the crimes reported to police were robberies. A volunteer policewoman was among those sexually molested.

Osem 05-01-2016 23:48
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Don't worry. It's nothing whatsoever to do with uncontrolled migration which, as we've all been told, is positive and can only be good for us. Frankly, it's about time our loved ones could look forward to being attacked, robbed, sexually assaulted and worse by a wider range of miscreant than the usual home bred ****. Competition can only be good for us remember and it's about time the world of criminality was opened up to practitioners from as far around the globe as possible...

Derek 06-01-2016 09:02
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Don't worry. The mayor is on it, get ready for all women in Cologne to be issued Burkas to stop similar incidents in the future.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6798186.html

Quote:
The Mayor of Cologne said today that women should adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent future assault at a crisis meeting following the sexual attack of women by 1000 men on New Year’s eve.

Osem 06-01-2016 09:24
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
It wasn't that long ago that anyone daring to mention crime, antisocial behaviour etc. associated with migration would be denounced by some as a rabid xenophobe stirring up trouble.

nomadking 06-01-2016 11:25
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Fail to see how the suggested "code of conduct" would have helped. The victims' weren't the ones doing any approaching.
Quote:
The suggested code of conduct includes maintaining an arm’s length distance from strangers, to stick within your own group, to ask bystanders for help or to intervene as a witness, or to inform the police if you are the victim of such an assault.
Quote:
Women reported being tightly surrounded by groups of men who harassed and mugged them. Some people threw fireworks into the crowds, adding to the chaos.
...
One of the victims, identified only as Katja L, told the Kölner Express: “When we came out of the station, we were very surprised by the group we met, which was made up only of foreign men … We walked through the group of men, there was a tunnel through them, we walked through … I was groped everywhere. It was a nightmare. Although we shouted and hit them, they men didn’t stop.
The problems aren't with migration in general, just those from certain countries and/or of certain types. Eg those from places Australia, Japan, US, Spain are not that much of those sort of problems.

Whether they weren't all "newly-arrived refugees" or not, is irrelevant, there would have been less recent arrivals and the newer ones ganged up alongside them. Adding more isn't going to help stop it.

Osem 06-01-2016 13:30
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Maybe it's all part of the EU's cultural enrichment plan... :rolleyes:

heero_yuy 06-01-2016 18:41
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Funny how on the day the BBC TV news completely failed to identify the malefactors as of "Arab appearance" Probably doesn't fit their agenda.:(

Osem 06-01-2016 22:38
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35815874)
Funny how on the day the BBC TV news completely failed to identify the malefactors as of "Arab appearance" Probably doesn't fit their agenda.:(
Yep, same thing on Radio 5 Live news just now - 'women attacked by groups of men' was as far as they went. Clearly they don't want anyone coming to any unfortunate conclusions about the less palatable consequences of uncontrolled migration (mostly young single males), open borders etc.

There have been similar problems of sexual violence within 'refugee' camps so why anyone would be surprised by this sequence of events or deny any link to the migration chaos in the EU is beyond me.

Damien 06-01-2016 22:49
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I don't scan every single broadcast but the BBC news report have mentioned it on his report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35239347

As well as this report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35239377

And on this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35241818 and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35241808

Osem 07-01-2016 08:47
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35815928)
I don't scan every single broadcast but the BBC news report have mentioned it on his report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35239347

As well as this report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35239377

And on this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35241818 and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35241808
It's certainly been referred to on their website but the broadcast side (whioch is what Heero and I mentioned) seems to have a different view. Maybe some BBC folks are more reticent than others and they're happier tucking the nasty detail away in the small print. :shrug:

Given the context of the incident, can anyone think of a valid 'news' reason why it should not have been mentioned on the TV and radio?

Damien 07-01-2016 09:46
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35815965)
It's certainly been referred to on their website but the broadcast side (whioch is what Heero and I mentioned) seems to have a different view. Maybe some BBC folks are more reticent than others and they're happier tucking the nasty detail away in the small print. :shrug:

Given the context of the incident, can anyone think of a valid 'news' reason why it should not have been mentioned on the TV and radio?
Those video reports are the broadcast side as well.

Also Newnight covered it last night with ethnicity of the alleged perpetrators and how that relates to the German position of refugees is front and center of the report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...night-06012016 (about 15:20 in). If you watch it cannot be claimed they aren't mentioning it or downplaying it. The story itself is more about the refugees than the attacks themselves and the possible ramifications of that.

It doesn't form the central part of the Radio 4 Today's brief interview in this clip: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03dq4f9 but it is mentioned at the end and I can't find the report/story of which this interview would have been related.

Osem 07-01-2016 10:00
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
So why didn't Radio 5 news or BBC TV news mention it? :shrug:

I'd imagine there's an editorial difference between Newsnight and BBC TV/Radio news and equally news clips broadcast via the BBC website. I don't regularly watch BBC TV news and didn't see it yesterday so can't comment on that but Radio 5 didn't mention ethnicity on their news whilst I was listening. I still think someone, somewhere intervened for reasons best known to themselves and the fact that others within the Beeb saw fit to tell the whole story only adds to the mystery.

Damien 07-01-2016 10:13
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
BBC TV News at 10 here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...t-ten-06012016

About 17:20 in. Again they do mention the race and the link with migration as well. They also talk about how this was provoked questions/anger at the refugee policy of the German government.

I couldn't find anything on Radio 5 site's admittedly although most of their stuff appears domestically targeted (so much about Labour's reshuffle). However I have linked to multiple BBC Website stories, two BBC news reports, a BBC Newsnight report, a BBC News at 10 report and a, albeit brief, Radio 4 report so I am not convinced there is a BBC editorial policy not to mention it.

Osem 07-01-2016 10:24
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35815976)
BBC TV News at 10 here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...t-ten-06012016

About 17:20 in. Again they do mention the race and the link with migration as well. They also talk about how this was provoked questions/anger at the refugee policy of the German government.

I couldn't find anything on Radio 5 site's admittedly although most of their stuff appears domestically targeted (so much about Labour's reshuffle). However I have linked to multiple BBC Website stories, two BBC news reports, a BBC Newsnight report, a BBC News at 10 report and a, albeit brief, Radio 4 report so I am not convinced there is a BBC editorial policy not to mention it.
So it seems that Radio 5 has a maverick PC obsessed news editor. Now that'd really be something eh? ;)

Maybe the decisions on content on the various programmes are made 'locally' and the omission is just a reflection of differing interpretations of BBC 'policy'. On the other hand, as time went on, maybe the Beeb decided that not mentioning ethnicity when everyone else was had become untenable. Having said that, the broadcast I heard was 9-9.30pm last night...

Given the Beeb's well known fixation with polciitcal correctness, I don't find it at all surprising that they might not be keen to mention ethnicity in any negative context such as this. That's the reason so many of their reports on the migration chaos repeatedly state 'many of them from Syria' when it's be more accurate to say 'most of them NOT from Syria' or words to that effect.

Chris 07-01-2016 15:02
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35815976)
BBC TV News at 10 here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...t-ten-06012016

About 17:20 in. Again they do mention the race and the link with migration as well. They also talk about how this was provoked questions/anger at the refugee policy of the German government.

I couldn't find anything on Radio 5 site's admittedly although most of their stuff appears domestically targeted (so much about Labour's reshuffle). However I have linked to multiple BBC Website stories, two BBC news reports, a BBC Newsnight report, a BBC News at 10 report and a, albeit brief, Radio 4 report so I am not convinced there is a BBC editorial policy not to mention it.
Having watched that as broadcast, I have to say I was left with the distinct impression that the reporter was trying to mention it, whilst giving it the bare minimum prominence and also being very careful to find people who would stand up and say that the ethnicity of the attackers were "unproven allegations".

Given that there is plenty of evidence emerging that the authorities tried to keep a lid on this from the moment it first took place, news organisations should be treating any and all official denials with extreme scepticism, and not using them to provide false balance in their stories.

Damien 07-01-2016 15:24
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35816054)
Having watched that as broadcast, I have to say I was left with the distinct impression that the reporter was trying to mention it, whilst giving it the bare minimum prominence and also being very careful to find people who would stand up and say that the ethnicity of the attackers were "unproven allegations".

Given that there is plenty of evidence emerging that the authorities tried to keep a lid on this from the moment it first took place, news organisations should be treating any and all official denials with extreme scepticism, and not using them to provide false balance in their stories.
The Newsnight report seems to lead with the alleged ethnicity of the attackers in the context of Germany's migration problem but I don't see the problem with the BBC being careful about it.

We're still not clear on the scale of this, the crimes alleged and the status of those who did it. The numbers for example vary wildly from hundreds of men to small groups and so on. Reports are coming of it happen in other German cities but we're not sure what exactly happened in those cities. It may have happened in Finland too but the police were proactive.

The real lighting of the fuse here will be the nationality of any of those arrested. If they are, as suggested, refugees then this will become a massive issue. Until we know for sure though....

Osem 07-01-2016 17:14
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35816056)
The Newsnight report seems to lead with the alleged ethnicity of the attackers in the context of Germany's migration problem but I don't see the problem with the BBC being careful about it.

We're still not clear on the scale of this, the crimes alleged and the status of those who did it. The numbers for example vary wildly from hundreds of men to small groups and so on. Reports are coming of it happen in other German cities but we're not sure what exactly happened in those cities. It may have happened in Finland too but the police were proactive.

The real lighting of the fuse here will be the nationality of any of those arrested. If they are, as suggested, refugees then this will become a massive issue. Until we know for sure though....
Refugees? Economic migrants? Such is the concern about the abject failure of the EU to control this mass migration that I don't think it really matters who these people are if it turns out they're 'foreign'. People are fed up with what's going on and the lack of control which is so clearly evident. Even where it hasn't already happened, IMHO that sentiment is, sadly, likely to extend to genuine refugees sooner or later.

======================

Meanwhile back in non-Schengenland we've just granted asylum to a Sudanese guy who broke all the rules, passed through various safe countries, breached security in Calais and then walked through the channel tunnel. Presumably being allowed to remain here is the severe punishment which has been meted out and it's intended to send out a clear message to others who'd dare to try the same tactic. :rolleyes:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ba...-a3148501.html

I'm beginning to think the migrants have taken over the reception centre...

Damien 07-01-2016 17:34
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816073)
Refugees? Economic migrants? Such is the concern about the abject failure of the EU to control this mass migration that I don't think it really matters who these people are if it turns out they're 'foreign'. People are fed up with what's going on and the lack of control which is so clearly evident. Even where it hasn't already happened, IMHO that sentiment is, sadly, likely to extend to genuine refugees sooner or later.
This is what I meant. Anyone who came in via this recent migration crisis.

Osem 07-01-2016 18:32
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
That's why Merkel's decision was so astonishing. What's happening now was inevitable (and entirely predictable) after she acted and will only get worse as the numbers continue to increase and pressure grows. Help should have been targeted at the genuine refugees.

Osem 08-01-2016 08:45
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Germany must look again at deporting foreigners convicted of crimes following the Cologne sex attacks, Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said "clear signals" had to be sent to those not prepared to abide by German law.

Gangs of men described as of North African and Arab appearance were reported to be behind the attacks.

Meanwhile, similar incidents from New Year's Eve have been reported in Finland and Switzerland.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35259224

Good luck deporting these people. More are being admitted to the EU all the time but let's not worry about that eh? I wonder of the welcome banners are still out...

Ramrod 08-01-2016 09:39
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816188)
I wonder of the welcome banners are still out...
Of course they are. Liberals and communists never learn :(

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 ----------

Reports flood in of sexual assaults against women across Germany
Quote:
Three Syrians have been arrested in southern Germany for the alleged gang rape of two teenage girls on New Year’s Eve, as reports flood in of sexual assaults against women across the country.

A 21-year-old man and two 14-year-old boys are being held in Weil am Rhein, a small town near the Swiss and German borders, for the alleged rape of two girls aged 14 and 15.

Prosecutors allege that the two girls were held for several hours and gang-raped
It's turning into another Sweden :(

Osem 08-01-2016 10:14
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Another Sweden? Come on now, we all know this is all being made up by Nigel Farage and the right wing media. How could anyone in their right mind argue that thousands of young men roaming around with little/no money, appreciation of western culture, etc. etc. etc. could possibly be the cause of troubles such as this. Sorry but it's all just too farfetched... :rolleyes:

Ramrod 08-01-2016 11:13
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Cultural difference is no excuse for rape
Quote:
In the early hours of 26 October 2014, a group of Libyan cadets, who were stationed at RAF Bassingbourn, ran amok in the centre of Cambridge. Fuelled by alcohol, the cadets roamed the picturesque streets looking for victims. Four women were sexually assaulted. The Libyans exposed themselves, grabbed the women, and put their hands up their skirts. A young guy, who was inebriated after a wedding party, was seized by two of the cadets, Moktar Ali Saad Mahmoud and Ibrahim Abugtila, and raped.
a Libyan spokesman appeared on our local TV news. The uniformed male said he was sorry, but the Libyans didn’t realise that you weren’t allowed to do such things in England. It was an unfortunate case of cultural misunderstanding.

Osem 08-01-2016 11:42
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35816218)
Yes it's odd how the argument is changed to suit the circumstances by some folks. One minute daring to suggest anything like that is verging on a heinous crime, the next minute it's being used as an excuse for the most appalling behaviour.

Ramrod 08-01-2016 11:58
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Hang on, there is more: sex harassment in Helsinki at New Year, Finnish police report
Quote:
Finnish police reported on Thursday an unusually high level of sexual harassment in Helsinki on New Year's Eve and said they had been tipped off about plans by groups of asylum seekers to sexually harass women.

"There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter... This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki," the Finnish capital's deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP.

Security guards hired to patrol the city on New Year's Eve told police there had been "widespread sexual harassment" at a central square where around 20,000 people had gathered for celebrations.
and more: link
A 28-year-old woman traveling alone on the Paris RER express train on 9 December found herself under attack from a group of men who turned out to be Afghan refugees.....she was joined by about ten men who boarded at Montparnasse station. It is reported they had been in the notorious Bois de Boulogne park in order to procure sex with transvestites....

Damien 08-01-2016 14:00
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
What would be the logic behind these attacks happening on the same night? Is it suggested New Years Eve is a special event for this type of thing or that it was coordinated? It's a bit odd.

techguyone 08-01-2016 15:29
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Easy targets in large numbers I'd expect. Bit of a captive audience really.

Taf 08-01-2016 16:00
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I often think that when I see the lurkers near the nightclubs at kick-out time. Tipsy or drunk ladies are an easier target.

Ramrod 08-01-2016 16:36
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I reported a few weeks ago that Austria had sold out of shotguns.
Now German Shops Sell Out of Pepper Spray

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35816251)
What would be the logic behind these attacks happening on the same night? Is it suggested New Years Eve is a special event for this type of thing or that it was coordinated? It's a bit odd.
It is odd. More: Multiple New Year’s Eve Sex Attacks In Sweden
Quote:
Just like in Cologne, the men allegedly encircled their victims, trapping them, before groping and assaulting them.

nashville 08-01-2016 16:51
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Thanks Taf. Best to you for 2016,

Damien 08-01-2016 16:56
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I mean several attacks of the same type across Europe at the same time? Why? This isn't the type of crime that requires cross-country coordination. Taken at face value it makes little sense.

Either:

1) This is a coordinated plan but if so to what end?
2) All of those involved come from the same place where doing this on New Years Eve as some sort of ritual is normal.
3) People are seeing a connection where there is none. Cologne was the event in question and other sexual assaults are being retrofitted into that 'narrative' incorrectly.

What happened in Cologne is bad enough but if the exact same thing happened in other cities at the same time then something else is happening here. There has to be something to this story that we're missing.

Osem 08-01-2016 16:59
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35816251)
What would be the logic behind these attacks happening on the same night? Is it suggested New Years Eve is a special event for this type of thing or that it was coordinated? It's a bit odd.
These migrants have made their way to their host countries having made full use of the internet and social media to spread information about routes, border problems, sources of assistance etc. etc. Although they may be separated now, they all still have access to their 'networks' and so I'm sure the word spread in just the same way. Was is some planned, hostile act? I don't think so but I'd say that groups of bored, frustrated, drunk and even angry young men may well have thought it seemed like a good idea at the time and word spread to other groups elsewhere.

When things go pear shaped you can bet these very same mechanisms are and will be used to spread information. These people know full well that their strength is in organised numbers so I'm sure more of this co-ordinated behaviour will follow when, for example, police action is taken or deportations authorised.

We've seen similar use of social media in the UK during various riots and demonstrations.

Damien 08-01-2016 17:34
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816299)
These migrants have made their way to their host countries having made full use of the internet and social media to spread information about routes, border problems, sources of assistance etc. etc. Although they may be separated now, they all still have access to their 'networks' and so I'm sure the word spread in just the same way. Was is some planned, hostile act? I don't think so but I'd say that groups of bored, frustrated, drunk and even angry young men may well have thought it seemed like a good idea at the time and word spread to other groups elsewhere.

When things go pear shaped you can bet these very same mechanisms are and will be used to spread information. These people know full well that their strength is in organised numbers so I'm sure more of this co-ordinated behaviour will follow when, for example, police action is taken or deportations authorised.

We've seen similar use of social media in the UK during various riots and demonstrations.
I haven't heard of young men using these tools to coordinate sexual assaults though. What would be the benefit of them for that? Maybe it was that they heard one group doing and so all meet in the largest cities near them to do the same but that is a odd amount of planning.

How long would it take for the word to speard? I mean they can't all be networked. If we, the British, were fleeing somewhere how many of us would be able to contact each other to coordinate large scale meet ups so quickly?

I can't believe the same type of attacks across Europe happened organically. There has to be something we're missing.

I think first we need to see if the attacks are linked/the same first and that what would otherwise be the normal level of crime are not being chalked up to what happened in Cologne.

Osem 08-01-2016 17:38
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35816306)
I haven't heard of young men using these tools to coordinate sexual assaults though. What would be the benefit of them for that? Maybe it was that they heard one group doing and so all meet in the largest cities near them to do the same but that is a odd amount of planning.

How long would it take for the word to speard? I mean they can't all be networked. If we, the British, were fleeing somewhere how many of us would be able to contact each other to coodinate large scale meet ups so quickly?

I can't believe the same type of attacks across Europe happened organically. There has to be something we're missing.
That may not have been the original intention - a little booze, a whole lot of male frustration and a ready supply of vulnerable young women combined to cause the same problem in several places for the same reason. Not all of the males out that evening would have been involved in the theft and assaults but it's highly likely that a proportion would seek to take advantage of the situation in some way.

Like you I don't see what they'd have to gain by such behaviour but desperate people do desperate things which often aren't in their best interests.

It's quite clear that mobile communications are being used by migrants in Calais to co-ordinate their activities whether that be storming the fences or evading the authorities. I dare say they knew about our Sudanese tunnel walker's success before the Border Agency did.

Taf 08-01-2016 18:22
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816310)
... a little booze, a whole lot of male frustration and a ready supply of vulnerable young women combined to cause the same problem in several places for the same reason..
Precisely. And the police backed off due to the large numbers (as if they could not have anticipated crowds on New Year's Eve).

TheDaddy 08-01-2016 18:23
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35816218)
Picturesque, Bassingbourn, really? I suppose so, if you've never been a local and if you squint a bit

Ramrod 08-01-2016 19:15
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35816330)
Picturesque, Bassingbourn, really? I suppose so, if you've never been a local and if you squint a bit
Anyhoo, but back to what actually happened there. Any comments? :)

TheDaddy 08-01-2016 21:01
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35816342)
Anyhoo, but back to what actually happened there. Any comments? :)
No nothing that hasn't already been said before I wouldn't have thought, does strike me as odd that they didn't realise they weren't allowed to do such things in England though, these are the people we've sided with in a civil war, that think rape is okay?

roughbeast 08-01-2016 22:08
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816310)
That may not have been the original intention - a little booze, a whole lot of male frustration and a ready supply of vulnerable young women combined to cause the same problem in several places for the same reason. Not all of the males out that evening would have been involved in the theft and assaults but it's highly likely that a proportion would seek to take advantage of the situation in some way.

Like you I don't see what they'd have to gain by such behaviour but desperate people do desperate things which often aren't in their best interests.

It's quite clear that mobile communications are being used by migrants in Calais to co-ordinate their activities whether that be storming the fences or evading the authorities. I dare say they knew about our Sudanese tunnel walker's success before the Border Agency did.
I reckon this is all due to a volatile combination of two aspects of different cultures; eastern and Asian authoritarian misogyny, resulting in the inaccessibility of women, and Western liberal misogyny, (porn), that gives an impression of available women. This is, of course, only an explanation, not an excuse. Even though the result of this partial clash of cultures in the psyche of Muslim and other Asian men is a serious feeling of being sexually deprived, it takes a loss of moral compass in the few to bring about this kind of sexual harassment.

As in the Doncaster, Middlesborough and Rochdale child abuser cases these guys are also presented with an opportunity. (Night-time taxis drivers and fast food workers in the UK.) These particular migrants are away from their families in many cases and from the moderating morality of their own neighborhoods. They are anonymous and as you say able to co-ordinate their actions and share their feelings on the internet. The internet will also feed them a constant stream of naked western women, legs akimbo, and apparently gagging for it.

The solution, given that this is the actions of a few, is not the ending of migration or mass deportation. It is down to good policing and serious punishment for those caught, with rapid deportation to follow.

Osem 09-01-2016 10:46
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Rapid deportation would be a very good thing. We've been trying and all too often failing to do it for years...

Now Merkel's Germany's on the receiving end of this sort of thing it'll be interesting to see how much more efficient they can be at getting shot of the undesirable element and whether or not they'll pay as much heed to the human rights act as we seem to when trying to get shot of those who've not only often come here illegally but have rewarded the generosity of their hosts with yet more illegality.

Of course, if Merkel can't get rid of all the undesirables and they remain in Germany or don't just disappear when they get wind of their impending fate, who's to say they won't be turning up to pastures new here in the not too distant future? One thing's for sure, given the effort they've made to get to their chosen destinations, few of these people are going to be removed voluntarily and the more of them there are who resist and delay the process, the harder it will be to deal with them.

Maybe Merkel should have thought about all that eh?...

nomadking 09-01-2016 10:59
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Even ones that come here that are well behaved, will inevitably go on to have children that will misbehave, join terrorists groups etc.

If the "Asian" sex gangs was truly about sexual frustration, why did they treat the girls that way? Couldn't they just arrange a network of consenting adult female prostitutes?

It is simply that there are too many other Muslims around, ready to assist them that creates the problems. In smaller numbers the things couldn't and wouldn't happen.

Osem 09-01-2016 15:18
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
People on Arabic-language social media have voiced dismay and anger at the sexual violence against women in Cologne and other German cities on New Year's Eve.

Indications that many of the attackers were North African or Arab in appearance prompt soul-searching, with some alluding to the perception that sexual violence against women is widespread in North Africa and the Middle East.

Many express concern about the possible impact the incidents could have on Germany's perception of migrants and refugees from the regions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35251167

Seems to me they're saying what the authorities have all too often been in denial of.

roughbeast 09-01-2016 15:51
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35816466)
Even ones that come here that are well behaved, will inevitably go on to have children that will misbehave, join terrorists groups etc.

If the "Asian" sex gangs was truly about sexual frustration, why did they treat the girls that way? Couldn't they just arrange a network of consenting adult female prostitutes?

It is simply that there are too many other Muslims around, ready to assist them that creates the problems. In smaller numbers the things couldn't and wouldn't happen.
Point One: Ignoring, of course, the >95% who will have children that will make a valuable contribution to society.

Point Two: It is all about opportunity, including resources. Hookers, even over-weight MILFS, cost money these guys haven't got. Young girls on the street are much more desirable, (After all that is what western porn shows them) , and they appear more accessible.

Point Three: There are even more non-Muslims about, with their own criminal networks. Your point is? The issue is the current psyche of some Muslim men and the fact that some have lost their moral certainties and have the opportunity.

Osem 09-01-2016 16:14
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Of course the cultural differences being alluded to here ought to have been considered by those who decided that they'd simply open the floodgates to all and sundry without a thought about how to deal with the masses. As it is, there's a growing number of people* within the EU who, left to their own devices, aren't going to integrate and are going to prove a serious problem in one way or another. There's also all of those who've been traumatised and otherwise damaged by their awful experiences who're similarly likely to have serious problems unless they're given the long term support, counselling etc. required to help them recover. Given that we're clearly struggling to cope with our existing vulnerable, mentally ill etc., I have no idea how the resources necessary to stop such people descending (or being drawn into by others) into depression, drugs, criminality etc. are going to be found. I suspect the money/resources won't be found and what will happen is that these people will largely be left to get on with it and in time the rest of us will be required to pick up the pieces. That of course excludes the proportion of migrants who are plain criminals and quite possibly escaping 'justice' in their own countries or just looking for far richer pickings in the west. It doesn't take many to cause a whole lot of grief.

(* and given the huge numbers it doesn't have to be a large percentage to be a very serious issue)

nomadking 09-01-2016 16:16
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roughbeast (Post 35816516)
Point One: Ignoring, of course, the >95% who will have children that will make a valuable contribution to society.

Point Two: It is all about opportunity, including resources. Hookers, even over-weight MILFS, cost money these guys haven't got. Young girls on the street are much more desirable, (After all that is what western porn shows them) , and they appear more accessible.

Point Three: There are even more non-Muslims about, with their own criminal networks. Your point is? The issue is the current psyche if some Muslim men and the fact that some have lost their moral certainties and have the opportunity.
Many of those from families that have been here a longer time, have children who have gone on to commit terrorist acts, join IS etc. Vetting those allowed to come here won't solve anything, just possibly delay it.

The gangs transport the girls around the country, things take place in hotels, the girls are given drink and drugs. That all costs money. Western porn routinely shows 13 year old girls being drugged and raped? Is there any sign they are watching any porn, never mind that sort? The gangs start off by attracting young girls to be their girlfriends. If it was remotely to do with sexual frustration, nothing much else would need to happen. No drink and drugs, no threats of violence, no trafficking around needed. If they can attract 13 year old girls, why can't they attract older females? Do they try?

Non-Muslim gangs tend to find it difficult to form in the first place. They can't just tap on the shoulder of the person working next to them and know that they will either join in or if not, they won't report them to the police for the suggestion. They don't tend to treat the victims in the extreme manner that the "Asian" gangs do. They don't tend to traffic the girls around. The "Asian" gangs tend to have just the gang members convicted. Not many of the OTHER men using them as prostitutes are convicted. That can be easily over 100 PER GANG. That distorts the figures making the awful "Asian" gangs figures several times lower than they really are.

roughbeast 09-01-2016 16:33
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816521)
Of course the cultural differences being alluded to here ought to have been considered by those who decided that they'd simply open the floodgates to all and sundry without a thought about how to deal with the masses. As it is, there's a growing number of people* within the EU who, left to their own devices, aren't going to integrate and are going to prove a serious problem in one way or another. There's also all of those who've been traumatised and otherwise damaged by their awful experiences who're similarly likely to have serious problems unless they're given the long term support, counselling etc. required to help them recover. Given that we're clearly struggling to cope with our existing vulnerable, mentally ill etc., I have no idea how the resources necessary to stop such people descending (or being drawn into by others) into depression, drugs, criminality etc. are going to be found. I suspect the money/resources won't be found and what will happen is that these people will largely be left to get on with it and in time the rest of us will be required to pick up the pieces.

(* and given the huge numbers it doesn't have to be a large percentage to be a very serious issue)
Trouble is, I don't see what choice we had. We could not push the refugees back in the sea or back into Turkey could we? Given that the west created the problems that are causing the migration we had to do something and even if we hadn't caused the problem we couldn't have left 100s of thousands of men, women and children to almost certain death.

The last mass migration within Europe was just before and just after WW2. On those occasions prejudice was directed at the migrant Jews with their different dress, food, Jewish courts and their synagogues springing up all over the place. We solved the problem by allowing the creation of Israel, the biggest strategic mistake of the 20th Century. Those that stayed in Europe long-term have integrated very well indeed.

We have no such option today, so we have to be imaginative, proactive at the same time as welcoming until such time as Syria and Iraq are peaceful and secure enough to return to. Most will return to Syria and Iraq because that is their beloved home, where their neighbours lived and their ancestors
rest in peace. Put yourself in their position. You would want to return home, as did most non-Jewish migrants displaced by WW2.

There will be more problems with a minority of migrants. That will have to be dealt with by proper policing and enforcement. At the same time most migrants will begin to make a contribution to their host nations. These are often professional people, who had resources and networks in their ravaged homelands. They will mostly be an asset here until they are able to return home.

Osem 09-01-2016 17:07
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
What we could have done is not simply opened the floodgates and in so doing encouraged even more people to come from places like Pakistan and many others. It was never going to be easy but sending out the 'welcome' message only served to attract more people to take their chances with people traffickers etc.

We should have been pouring resources into refugee camps and sending out the clear message that we weren't simply going to open ourselves up to anyone who turned up claiming to be a refugee. Furthermore we should have been saying that anyone admitted as a refugee would be expected to return home at a future, safe, time as a condition of their entry. As it is, with no such rule, we've sent out the message to all and sundry that, for a period, possibly brief, there's a chance to get into the EU, choose where you go and stay there. We've also raised the hopes of a great many people, who won't want to return to their homelands because they lie in ruins. I know I wouldn't want to trade in a nice relatively safe life in the EU for extreme uncertainty (and quite possibly worse) back home, especially if I'd built a new life and my children had become used to it.

No, none of the above would solve the problem we've face but IMHO it would have reduced the scale of the problem rather than compounded it which is what I believe has happened. Imaging the feelings of those who believe they were invited and welcomed into the EU only to find that welcome was short and the streets weren't bedecked with welcome signs. I think we're creating the conditions for a great deal of serious resentment which won't be quickly forgotten.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

Quote:
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has proposed changes to make it easier to deport asylum-seekers who commit crimes, after the New Year's Eve sex attacks on women in Cologne.

The attacks, which victims say were carried out by men of North African and Arab appearance, have called into question her open-door migrant policy.

The police's handling of the events has also been sharply criticised.

Later, there were clashes at an anti-immigrant protest in Cologne.

Police used water cannon and pepper spray to disperse protesters from the the right-wing anti-immigrant Pegida movement as violence flared after a rally which heard condemnation of Mrs Merkel's policies.

Reports say bottles and firecrackers were hurled at police lines.

Saturday also saw protests by feminist groups over violence against women in the city, and a left-wing anti-Pegida counter-demonstration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35271171

Taf 09-01-2016 17:23
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
The predicted great famines and droughts in India and Pakistan will make all this pale in comparison.

roughbeast 09-01-2016 17:30
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35816523)
Many of those from families that have been here a longer time, have children who have gone on to commit terrorist acts, join IS etc. Vetting those allowed to come here won't solve anything, just possibly delay it.

The gangs transport the girls around the country, things take place in hotels, the girls are given drink and drugs. That all costs money. Western porn routinely shows 13 year old girls being drugged and raped? Is there any sign they are watching any porn, never mind that sort? The gangs start off by attracting young girls to be their girlfriends. If it was remotely to do with sexual frustration, nothing much else would need to happen. No drink and drugs, no threats of violence, no trafficking around needed. If they can attract 13 year old girls, why can't they attract older females? Do they try?

Non-Muslim gangs tend to find it difficult to form in the first place. They can't just tap on the shoulder of the person working next to them and know that they will either join in or if not, they won't report them to the police for the suggestion. They don't tend to treat the victims in the extreme manner that the "Asian" gangs do. They don't tend to traffic the girls around. The "Asian" gangs tend to have just the gang members convicted. Not many of the OTHER men using them as prostitutes are convicted. That can be easily over 100 PER GANG. That distorts the figures making the awful "Asian" gangs figures several times lower than they really are.
Your use of the word 'many' is very sloppy. At the very most we are talking about a handful here. The vast majority, as with the indigenous population, will be an asset.

You are confusing what happened here in the UK, with abuses of young girls by a tiny minority of working Asian men, with the situation fresh migrant men in Europe find themselves in. At the moment they are workless penniless which is why a handful have resorted to robbing my street theft as well as sexual assault. These are a different group than established people traffickers.

The amount of porn being watched by African and Asian men is astonishing. I believe this is driving the sex slave antics of ISIS. Osama bin Laden had a stash of porn in his hideout and evidence of online porn access. Check the stats yourself for which countries are the greatest users of porn. The UK and UK are high on the list too.

Porn access is beginning to increase the occurrences of sexual assaults by indigenous students on girls in our campuses. It is also becoming responsible for male impotence. Real sex rarely lives up to porn fantasies of sex with horny nubiles.

techguyone 09-01-2016 17:30
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35816538)
The predicted great famines and droughts in India and Pakistan will make all this pale in comparison.
Maybe they can come over too :D

Osem 09-01-2016 18:13
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35816543)
Maybe they can come over too :D
Yup, what's to stop them? :erm:

techguyone 09-01-2016 19:06
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Room probably, if all of India/Pakistan came over, that's a LOT of people. We'd probably tip over or sink entirely.

Taf 09-01-2016 20:20
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
So, many women were raped, accosted or robbed in Cologne, and the police did little or nothing at the time to stop it.

Today some anti-immigration people got water-cannoned and pepper-sprayed when they rallied to protest about it in the same city.

Osem 10-01-2016 19:26
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35816567)
Room probably, if all of India/Pakistan came over, that's a LOT of people. We'd probably tip over or sink entirely.
Yeah but think of our GDP as we went under... :rolleyes:

Anyone with a brain ought to know that rapid population growth isn't sustainable and certainly isn't the way to bring an end to such issues as housing/water/food shortages, pressure on services/infrastructure etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't make much sense to wait for the breaking point to be reached before accepting that there must be one...

Ramrod 10-01-2016 19:34
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35816580)
So, many women were raped, accosted or robbed in Cologne, and the police did little or nothing at the time to stop it.

Today some anti-immigration people got water-cannoned and pepper-sprayed when they rallied to protest about it in the same city.
Yep. Bloodymarvelous, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Oh and apparently the surround women with large numbers of arab men and tear their clothes off & molest them is a 'thing' in some countries. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Taharrush
Quote:
Following the mass sexual assault in Cologne on New Year’s Eve, German authorities are talking about the phenomenon of ‘Taharrush‘ — where large gangs of men attack and even rape women during major events.

Taharrush has so far been confined to the Arab world, but with the huge migrant influx last year, authorities are now concerned the Cologne attacks could be the first example in Europe.

The Federal Criminal Police (BKA) told Welt am Sonntag that they are looking at how some Arab countries deal with mass sexual assaults amid fears similar attacks could happen again at other large gatherings in the country.

TheDaddy 11-01-2016 07:59
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35816703)
Yeah but think of our GDP as we went under... :rolleyes:

Anyone with a brain ought to know that rapid population growth isn't sustainable and certainly isn't the way to bring an end to such issues as housing/water/food shortages, pressure on services/infrastructure etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't make much sense to wait for the breaking point to be reached before accepting that there must be one...
It makes perfect sense when you don't take a long term view as politicians don't, what do they care what happens in twenty years all they're interested in is here and now and winning the next election

nomadking 11-01-2016 10:05
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
GDP may go up simply because everybody has to buy essentials like food. Where the money comes from is another matter. It will come from more benefits paid out from borrowed money. Then add in the effect of money being sent abroad and the economy actually loses out.

Osem 11-01-2016 13:38
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
The German official responsible for investigating the attacks on women in Cologne on New Year's Eve says the suspects were "almost exclusively" those with a migration background, mainly North African and Arab.

Ralf Jaeger accused Cologne police of making "serious mistakes".

More than 500 criminal complaints have been filed - 40% alleging sexual assault - relating to 31 December.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35280386

Who'd could possibly predicted... :rolleyes:

It says something about the mindset and flawed thinking of our glorious leaders that the threat posed to our security in Europe by such a massive influx of persons unknown didn't warrant any action but suddenly the realisation has dawned on them, as a result of these sexual assaults, that a significant number of these people are extremely dubious and capable of causing a whole lot of trouble. Well I'm sorry but there's been all sorts of criminality going on but nobody wanted to admit it until they had to.

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35816783)
GDP may go up simply because everybody has to buy essentials like food. Where the money comes from is another matter. It will come from more benefits paid out from borrowed money. Then add in the effect of money being sent abroad and the economy actually loses out.
The GDP argument has always been flawed IMHO. We're always being told most migrants are here doing all the low paid jobs that we don't want and scrimping by on poverty pay. We're also told that a great many save as much as they can to send home (both within and outside the EU e.g. the Philippines) in order to support their poverty stricken families. I don't see how either scenario an be argued as being positive for GDP.

Per capita income has to be a much better measure of the nation's wealth but even where that increases due (in part) to population growth we still have to consider the sustainability factor and the effects of population growth on things like the environment and our way of life.

Ramrod 11-01-2016 13:41
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
An article from the New York Times

Quote:
When immigration proceeds at a steady but modest clip, deep change comes slowly, and there’s time for assimilation to do its work. That’s why the Muslim population in Europe has been growing only at one percentage point a decade; it’s why many of the Turkish and North African immigrants who arrived in Germany and France decades ago are reasonably Europeanized today.

But if you add a million (or millions) of people, most of them young men, in one short period, you get a very different kind of shift.

Osem 11-01-2016 13:48
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Yes, it's not exactly rocket science is it? Makes you wonder how our glorious leaders didn't seem to see... :confused: :rolleyes:

Anyway I wish Merkel the best of luck with deporting these people back to north Africa and the Arab world...

Taf 11-01-2016 17:23
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
They'd tie themselves to long bungee cords of course... back in no time at all with new identities and tales of woe back home.

Osem 12-01-2016 08:50
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Germany has been sending an increasing number of migrants back to Austria every day since the beginning of the month, Austrian police say.

Many had no valid documents, whilst others did not want to apply for asylum in Germany but in other countries, notably in Scandinavia, police said.

New Year's Eve attacks on women in Cologne, blamed on migrants, have put pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Most of those sent back to Austria are not Syrians, who usually get asylum.

Instead, they are migrants mostly from Afghanistan as well as Morocco and Algeria, Austrian police said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35286640

So Germany invited them in, they made their way through Europe with no papers and now Germany has told them they're not wanted and passed the problem back to other countries. Where will Austria send them I wonder or is their 'welcome' still unequivocal? I can see this going well...

If Merkel (and all the others complicit in this madness) was the head of a corporation or even a government dept like HMRC, I'm sure she'd have been forced to resign by now.

techguyone 12-01-2016 09:11
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I'm not sure if the boxheads do the 'falling on your sword' bit, it'll be interesting to see. When's the next elections over there?

heero_yuy 12-01-2016 15:37
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
A SUICIDE bomber with links to Syria is believed to have caused this morning's explosion at a packed tourist hotspot in Istanbul.

At least ten people were killed in the explosion in the Turkish city's historic Sultanahmet district - where thousands of Brits visit every year.

Deputy PM Numan Kurtulmus said the suicide bomber is a 28-year-old Syrian refugee.

Turkish officials reportedly blamed ISIS for the attack but this has not been verified.

Turkey's Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has told Angela Merkel most of those who died are German.

At least nine of the wounded were also German nationals.
Linky

Refugee suicide bomber. Who'd have thought it?

Ironic that Germans were targetted after letting so many into their country.

Taf 12-01-2016 16:36
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Perhaps daesh is getting worried that its human shield is being depleted?

Osem 12-01-2016 17:38
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35816991)
Linky

Refugee suicide bomber. Who'd have thought it?

Ironic that Germans were targetted after letting so many into their country.
Not Merkel for sure. Thanks to our porous borders and flawed immigration policy, we've been letting in and giving refuge to persons unknown for years. Of course nobody in officialdom has been too keen to keep records as to what crimes they might subsequently have been involved in because that might be too embarrassing...

Ramrod 12-01-2016 17:48
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
German Cop Breaks Ranks: We Are BANNED From Detaining Migrants
Quote:
The officer told the paper the public do not get an accurate idea of what is really happening in the migrant crime wave, because events are mis-reported by police to prevent outrage.
Bernd said in the past months, he had only once had cause to book a German citizen. The rest of his arrests and complaints were against migrants, who he said regularly “sexually harassed” women around the local railway station, the first stop in Germany after the railway crosses from Austria.

heero_yuy 13-01-2016 13:52
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Denmark's government said on Tuesday it had secured a parliamentary majority for a controversial plan to seize migrants' valuables to pay for their stay in asylum centres.

"The government, the Social Democrats, the Danish People's Party, the Liberal Alliance and the Conservative People's Party have agreed to amend the bill concerning valuables," a government statement said, indicating that wedding rings and other items of sentimental value would be exempt from the move.

In addition to wedding rings, it listed engagement rings, family portraits and badges of honour as items that could not be confiscated from asylum seekers.
Linky

Not so welcoming then.

Sirius 13-01-2016 14:16
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35816932)
I'm not sure if the boxheads do the 'falling on your sword' bit, it'll be interesting to see. When's the next elections over there?
Not heard them called that in a long time

Osem 13-01-2016 15:09
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35817151)
Linky

Not so welcoming then.
This sort of thing is inevitable and the more 'chosen destination' countries which start adopting measures like this, the great the burden there will be on those left, including the UK.

Osem 13-01-2016 17:31
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Apologies if this has already been mentioned elsewhere but:

Quote:
Last year, there were numerous sexual assaults at a music festival in Stockholm - many by migrant youths - but police did not make the information public.

They have now admitted that keeping silent was "a big mistake".

The revelations follow recent events in Germany, where Cologne's police chief resigned following sexual attacks in the city on New Year's Eve.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35300266

It seems the authorities aren't very keen on the truth being told when it comes to the downsides of uncontrolled migration. I might be wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if exactly the same thing happened here even after all the institutionalised denial surrounding the child abuse issues in places like Rotherham.

Taf 13-01-2016 19:10
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Sweden is in a state of crisis in that they have all been taught "not to mention the immigrants" in almost every situation, as to do so was "racist", "xenophobic" or "anti-muslim".

Big bite in the ass time.

Osem 13-01-2016 19:30
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35817191)
Sweden is in a state of crisis in that they have all been taught "not to mention the immigrants" in almost every situation, as to do so was "racist", "xenophobic" or "anti-muslim".

Big bite in the ass time.
Not only for them. Plenty of people refused to accept/admit any such thing could happen. They're looking a tad naïve and/or stupid right now.

Ramrod 14-01-2016 14:36
Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35817199)
Plenty of people refused to accept/admit any such thing could happen. They're looking a tad naïve and/or stupid right now.
Though you won't catch them admitting it out loud (or probably even to themselves) :rolleyes:


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