Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

As useful an in site as that is it doesn't really address the urban fox issue as I don't ever remember seeing red jacketed idiots charging down Oxford street. Brian would have us believe The worst they do is knock over a few dustbins, I've seen them doing much worse, I also even heard a "expert" trying to explain how rat poison and not foxes were responsible for the sharp decline in hedgehogs

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I did mention exterminators to control them.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

yes in the context of them replacing bloodsports, there has never been fox hunting in the cities to my knowledge.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I would much preferto see red jackets and hounds galloping through central London. If they're proposing an F1 race in London surely we can have a fox hunt too?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Given half the chance they would if they could, and if someone needs to kill an animal to get their jollies then the is something seriously lacking in their mental makeup, then again considering who the average person in red maybe the is no surprise in that.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Most of the time they never used to catch anything though, unlike now of course still don't let that get in the way of your rhetoric

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

But when they did it was quite barbaric and again if that is how they get their jollies then they have something significantly wrong in their mental makeup wanting to watch an exhausted creature being ripped to shreds and possibly even more disgusting new members getting blooded with its blood.

Some wonderful mental images making the average person want to support them not.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Neither side is side in this discussion will ever see eye to eye..so why not just agree to disagree and stop picking at a festering wound?:erm:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Maggy's right its been done to death earlier in the thread about how rare it was for them to catch anything pre ban, in fact the most startling fact was one hunt killed more foxes on the first day of hunting post ban than it did in the entire season pre ban and how it's one dog that does the kill so nothing is ripped to shreads, its all very emotive terminology though I give you that.

What none of this helps with is the urban fox, the problem is getting worse imo, they are simply everywhere now, I put it down to morons that feed them regularly personally, they lack the mental capacity to realise if they are giving it food every night it doesn't need to defend its territory and will have more young as times seem good to it but what if anything happens to.said moron, like they move or die, the fox then has to fight to regain its territory.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:clap:

Having attended hunts when i was younger and fitter "on the saboteurs side" and how i wish i still could. I saw plenty of hunts kill and watched them laugh and scream with pleasure at the killing. The fact that they encouraged children to get involved as well made me wonder if they had any humanity in them. If the average person was to watch some of the videos on YouTube showing what happens at the kill and how they woop with delight many many more people would be against this BLOOD SPORT and lets face it this is a sport nothing else.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Just been listening to how canida Doyle from pulp had returned from four days away to find foxes had trashed her first floor flat on the radio, the really interesting thing about the show was the stats from the fox project who said they received 35000 calls last year, approx 6000 from people reporting damage to property by foxes and a staggering 29000+ calls from people wanting to know what they should feed them!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

They're still at it. But luckily anti-hunt persons were there.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=df5_1353870712

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well, we will never know whether that hunt was conducted within the law or not, as the sabs appear to have intervened before the law was broken.

From that video it seems to me that coping with the presence of sabs has just become part of the sport. From what I could see there were as many people running round with video cameras - on both sides - as there were on horseback.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

nice piece of objective unbiased unemotive reporting there.

Good Job

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The hunt saboteur did well. Well done :clap:

Glad to see the neanderthals failed to get a kill.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

those animals should be dragged off their horses and bull whipped for twenty minuets or so , just to let them know what pain feels like .

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

One tried to whip me with his crop once because he said i was in his way on a public path, I dragged him off his horse and smacked him right in the face. :LOL:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Who wrote this a child, the language is hilarious, it might of had rabies and got run over after refusing to get out of the way were particular highlights, not sure I even dare click on the bushy tailed bandit link

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/918633-c...ed-to-bus-stop

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

It's ok though, apparently it was just scared, the baby is just scarred :(

http://news.sky.com/story/1050008/fo...-in-cot-attack

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I think posting urban fox attacks in this thread is pointless. The urban fox issue is totally separate to fox hunting.

There should be a concerted effort in culling urban foxs, they are like rats, they are vermin and should be exterminated.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

We could start with stopping organisations like the fox project and RSPCA treating injured foxes that get knocked over by cars or contract Mange .They should be ordered to put them down rather than returning them to the wild

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I have no issue with a properly controlled cull carried out by properly trained personal, however i do have an issue when its turned into a spectacle and a sport run by neanderthal cave dwellers.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

thats probably what the rest of the animal kingdom think of us ;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No need to kill them, they're just being playful

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ear...ping-baby.html

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Another attack, yet again we're told by the 'experts' how rare this is, about time these people woke up imo

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/n...l_out_jogging/

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't think you will find many would have no issue with a properly controlled cull carried out by properly trained personal, however it should not be turned into a spectacle and a sport by neanderthal cave dwellers who call themselves fox hunters. The last thing we need are foxes being chased around urban areas by neanderthals on horses screaming for blood.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:confused: Did we have that pre ban then, I remember lots of congestion but can truthfully say I never recall being held up by a fox hunt in a city centre and I beg to differ re the properly controlled cull, I think you'll find many, many people against the cull, you know, the types that feed them, those sorts.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I somehow find the baby incident a bit strange to believe. It's the middle of the winter and the mother leaves the babies room window wide open whilst in the other room on a ground floor flat? Don't really believe that at all. If anything I think they enticed the fox in with food or something. It would be far better to explain that a fox climbing in on its own accord attacked the baby without the mother present rather than maybe tackling the parenting issue... just a thought.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

My point being that the neanderthals given half the chance would try hunting in an urban area, there pretty short on brains. :D

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't think anybody, at anytime, ever........has suggested traditional fox hunting on horseback in urban areas.......ever.

So that argument is a non- starter.

However, the urban fox ends to be controlled. The local authority needs to sort it out and kill the fox, humanely and effectively.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

To what end? Why would they entice it in and the door was broken waiting to be fixed, no windows involved iirc.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

At least the admitted there's a problem this time rather than call it unheard of or the people involved liars. Also glad they blamed the morons that feed them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...teeth-her.html

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

We need a cull round here and fast, there's more urban foxes now than ever before, they're that brazen now they're even out before it gets dark.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

same here in Crawley :(

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yet another incident of them being in a house, good job their such timid creatures or this would be happening all the time, this time also involving a cat, yet another thing these experts kept telling us didn't happen, still at least they didn't mention how rare it is this time

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-save-cat.html

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

there was one lying in the sun in broad daylight on my brothers lawn the other day

as bold as brass!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:mad:why?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Because it was sunbathing, I expect.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:mad:WHY KILL AN ANIMAL IN SUCH A BARBARIC WAY?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

For fun?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Because, unlike shooting at random, it ensures the strongest survive?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Because some people take great pleasure in killing animals for fun and sport. There just a bunch of Neanderthals to be honest and one day they might grow up and join the human race.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

What has sunbathing got to do with it?

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ----------

I personally believe that fox hunting continued long after the ban was introduced

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

well they havent been here or we wouldnt have a bloody army of the things roaming the streets

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You asked why a fox was sitting in Spreadsheet's back garden. :shrug:

I think you're right, hunting continued and continues. It is remarkably difficult to criminalise an activity enjoyed by such a large number of people, as Blair discovered as he chucked hour after hour of parliamentary time at it. It is even harder, however, to enforce a law which has criminalised the pastime of so many ordinary people.

You who think killing animals for sport is "Neanderthal", when do you plan to start sabbing anglers? Or is that "different"?

Hey look, a four year old thread just started again from page 1 ...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

We have an hierarchy when it comes to killing animals which is generally based on how intelligent they are (or how cute they are) so killing a fish is different to killing a dog or a fox. We know this is true, it's just the way it is. It's why we feel no remorse for killing a fly but hate the idea of killing a cat or a dolphin. If all animals were equal then killing humans wouldn't be that out of line either really. There is a clear order of acceptability. So it is different.

I think it's odd to want to kill animals for sport. To enjoy killing animals. I admit I am happy to have them killed for my food, which is a bit hypocritical. However I don't enjoy seeing animals in pain, I would never intentionally harm an animal such as a fox (flies? no problem). I think there is something wrong if that empathy isn't present.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Who's idea is it to bring this act of cruelty back?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34860351-post1.html

It's in the first post of this very long thread.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Its sad nite all

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Damien, you need to get out of the city once in a while, that liberal fog is rotting your brain. ;)

I assure you, no such hierarchy exists out here in the big, wide countryside, where a farmer will kill a fox or a rat with precisely the same amount of forethought as he would swat a fly. The calculation is expediency, and nothing more. And regardless of any argument from the Theory of Evolution, philosophy still generally holds the human race to be fundamentally different to the animal kingdom, being capable of morality and self-awareness. We don't make a taboo out of killing people because we're the most intelligent animal; we do so because as beings, we set ourselves apart and above animals and therefore do not treat each other as animals.

I'm surprised to see you justifying your position on an ill-defined appeal to higher morality ("it just is"). If that's your view, that's fine. However where this thread has been over and over again in the past 4 years is into the territory of what gives one group of people the right to criminalise an activity enjoyed by another group of people. "it just is", is not sufficient justification. Nor is an appeal to "democracy". One of the fundamental ingredients of a stable democracy is the understanding that the winning side will use its power responsibly and not victimise the losers (which, incidentally, is why Egypt is going to hell in a handcart. Morsi won the election, but seems not to have understood everything that entailed). Yet, in "banning" fox hunting, that is what Parliament did. There was no public health issue and the fox as a species was not under threat. There was simply the fact that one group of people didn't like what another group of people was doing, and being the larger group, they acted to ban it.

Thankfully such misuses of our democratic process are very rare. It is on a point of democratic principle that I hope to see the Act repealed.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

But surely it is the very heart of democracy for the larger group to win over the smaller group

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Errm, no. Fox hunting was not banned because some people didn't like what many 'ordinary' people got u to.It was banned because many people believed it constituted unnecessary cruelty to animals.

The way democracy works is that if enough people object to something then it will be legislated against. The fox hunting ban came about through democratic means. There is no point of democratic principle to repeal it any more than there is a reason repeal the abolition of slavery.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

we don't like to think about it but we continually 'consume' meat products to the tune of slaughtering about 750,000 animals in slaughterhouses each and every day

and yet none, or not many, of us see the blood on our hands


preferring instead a neatly bar coded version and possible bonus on a waitrose card or similar

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

In democracy, one group wins an election, another loses. It is then for the winner to govern for all, not to favour just its own client group.

A specific measure, criminalising a widely-followed activity for no coherent reason, is a classic example of what not to do with a democratic mandate. The animal welfare argument was, and still is, contested - not that it was ever truly about animal welfare. Let's be clear here - an activity that was a legitimate pastime one day, was a criminal act the next. That is draconian. And the reason for it was neatly summed up as the vote was announced in the Commons by Dennis Skinner, who shouted, "that will show the toffs". It was just an ugly old piece of class warfare.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

it was Blair blowing crap to the wind with his 'classless society'

christ! - how I abhor the cretinous peace envoy :dunce:

the national socialist party in germany were the first to come in under a left wing ticket

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

As a point of morality, slavery is different. Slaves are human, foxes are not. This is a fundamental difference. Regardless of ongoing agitation from the "animal rights" lobby, animals, as non-human, do not have rights. Certain species have certain protections for certain reasons.

And I think you are wilfully conflating the concepts of majority rule and minority oppression. There are plenty of things that a majority of people in this country object to, which nevertheless are tolerated and do not become criminalised, because for the most part our representatives recognise that the purpose of democracy is to safeguard freedom, not to restrict it.

Smoking remains legal, despite the extreme harm it can cause. Religious organisations continue to enjoy exemptions from aspects of our equality laws, when religious reasons are cited, despite these legal guarantees supposedly being the hallmarks of a modern, tolerant society.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

That is one of the most intelligent responses I have seen in this thread, and so true!

I was born and brought up in a country community in Worcestershire, if a farmer had a problem with foxes he didn't wait for the hunt to convene he went out with a team who baited and shot the foxes. Many farmers in the area I lived in at that time, 50's & 60's, would not allow the hunt on their land due to the damage and disruption they caused. Locally the hunt were seen to be a "gung-ho" band there for a day's "sport", it was not unknown for the hunt in full cry to ride straight across the main roads causing traffic chaos.

I am not pro or anti fox hunting, however the Warwickshire hunts I had to follow as a child due to my favourite aunt in Stratford on Avon being an ardent supporter generally resulted in more horses being injured than foxes killed!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

are you - like dr spock from the starship enterprise or some thing jeez

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

and the odd hunter getting his head cut off after trying to confront a guy in a micro light

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I agree that is how it's supposed to work, but in reality not so much.The campaign against fox hunting had been raging for years even decades before it was banned, it took a Labour government with a big enough majority to end the practice**in other words they served their own client group as you say ,but you could also say as the conservatives had done by not banning it despite overwhelming public support for a ban.

** i can't remember if Labour had included banning fox hunting in any of their manifesto's or was it just something that labour used ,knowing they would have large public support for the ban

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Not banning something isn't serving a client group - it is simply following the basic and worthy principle that you don't restrict people's freedom to go where they like and do what they want unless there are pressing reasons to do so.

The animal welfare argument is highly contentious. What parliament did - as you say, taking advantage of an unusually large Labour majority - was to enforce a moral view on a minority by statute.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Slavery is different, but not that different. More people object to unnecessary cruelty against animals than a couple of years ago. This has resulted in legislation again cruelty to animals. The point of the analogy with slavery was that, at the time, to many people, slaves were just short of non-human.

Perceptions change, and your arguments against the fox hunting ban can easily be transposed to slavery. At the time, trading and keeping slaves, was a widely followed practice that suddenly became illegal, because some people didn't like what others were doing. In hindsight, there's little that's Draconian about that.

And I'm not conflating anything thank you. Any form of government is going to be a trade-off between what's considered acceptable and people's liberties. As it happens, animal rights have come to the fore in recent years, and this means that unnecessary cruelty against animals is frowned upon. Just like smoking in the Pub, where others are affected (unless it's the HoP Pub, but that's another matter).

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Isn't the fact that so many wanted it banned and had been trying for so long a pressing reason

---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:11 ----------

Another more up to date example would be the smoking ban .For years a large campaign against smoking in public places was fought ,people against the ban cited removal of freedom ,pubs and clubs closing ,eventually the ban was introduced and barely a whimper was heard .The 'for' foxhunting side cited removal of freedom ,they said hunts would close (they are bigger and more numerous than ever ,no dogs or horses where slaughtered and people join hunts because there is no fox killed

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I think most people were completely indifferent to it actually, much as they are now.

---------- Post added at 00:29 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

More foxes are killed now than ever before, difference is though it's done by rifle or giant bird.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't think people objected to the need to control foxes ,just the way it was done .A more inefficient way to control a pest i have yet to find ,as already stated ,it's a way that ensures only the strongest and fittest foxes survive and go on to breed ,not sure the farmers really want that do they .

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

That's not my perception.

I think that's a lot more palatable to a lot of people. This was never about being allowed to get rid of pests. It's about the way it's done.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Interesting so now it's not because no foxes are being killed after all, I think quite a few farmers couldn't give a toss about foxes but are concerned about the cash the hunts pay them and referring to your previous post I seem to recall the rspca promising to take in and home all the horses and hounds when they were made redundant knowing full well they couldn't find homes for the healthy animals they already had and put them down, they were the only people that lied as no one could predict the future, they made guarantees they knew they couldn't fulfil.

---------- Post added at 00:50 ---------- Previous post was at 00:49 ----------

How many people know how it's done and how many assume they know how it's done

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The argument against fox hunting has always been about the way it was done, for the majority at least .I don't doubt there was an element that want no foxes killed at all but the sensible majority know they are a pest with no natural predators and you may be right about the farmers ,would a farmer really wait for hunt weekend to kill a fox that just got into his chickens or would he get his 12 bore out and do the job straight away

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Interesting choice for the fox really, a slow lingering death full of pellets, gnaw your own foot of caught on a snare or poison, none of them are particularly nice but hunting is banned, I don't know for certain how hunting works or how a fox is killed but I do know for certain I'm not swayed by the emotive language of certain groups and individuals, is the fox ripped to bits alive or is it killed by a single dog and then torn up after death as is claimed by the hunt masters and if so how is that worse than it's natural predators the eagle owl and golden eagle swooping straight through them as happens on hunts now.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Of those sporting events i attended as a saboteur i saw both. I also watched the spectacle of the event and how young children were encouraged to watch and get involved even at the kill if it was possible. My choice of the words used in the thread still stands because the way these people act at the kill is not human, screaming and laughing at the death of an animal is sub human.

If I was still fit enough I would still be attending these events to try my best to stop them. However it is for fitter and younger persons than me to get involved these days due to the way the defenders of the sport use violence the like you see at some football matches

If you are that interested in seeing what happens at the kill go look for the videos on Google and watch how low some so called humans can go.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Your commitment to your belief is highly commendable, however your repeated claims that the behaviour of those involved in the hunt is "sub human" or "Neanderthal" are not ones that I believe are shared by most people. I suspect most people are indifferent one way or the other.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yes big star that is exactly the reason fox hunting was banned in the first place it is about the way it is done the cruelty inflicted upon the hunted fox is terrible i know what i am about to say here is nothing to do with fox killing but again it is the same with seals, how any human being can kill a seal is also beyond me people like fox hunters and seal hunters etc make me sick!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 ----------

Just saying how i feel, and my view is this.......it is wrong to bring fox hunting back again that is my personal view

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I agree with you bunch of blood thirsty toffs

If there is a problem let the farmer/landowner deal with

---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 ----------


:tu:

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 ----------

foxes can easily be deterred by electric fences but these cost money. None of the urban foxes get close to my chickens because I have taken precautions in their surroundings

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The fatal flaw in the slavers' argument was of course that the slaves actually were human. They lost the argument on their own terms, once it was widely understood that human slaves were being treated with less dignity than their humanity demanded.

The question now is whether the treatment of a hunted fox is less than that demanded by its status as a fox. Leaving aside the fact that animals have no status in law - our laws being framed in terms of what people can and cannot do to animals, rather than what "rights" animals have - I would argue that a fox being hunted down by a pack of dogs, even being "torn to pieces" by that pack, is receiving no different treatment than it could have expected in the wild, had humans themselves not removed the apex predators such as wolves and eagle owls (though these are, I believe, beginning to make a comeback).

I have no doubt that the fox is distressed by the hunt. I have no doubt that its death is painful. However it is suffering nothing that is not routinely suffered by all wildlife, everywhere, every day. The argument that it is cruel does not stand up. Life is cruel. Death is cruel. You can't legislate against that.

What we're actually left with is people projecting their own feelings on to animals - a phenomenon pretty much confined to the cosseted, urbanised, Disneyfied Western world, where animals dress up in waistcoats to sing and dance for our entertainment, and meat is a mysterious pink substance that magically appears in shrink wrap on supermarket shelves - and arbitrary morality such as that articulated by Damien earlier: it's wrong because "it just is". All of which is fine as far as it goes. But to then legislate for that is as illiberal as legislating that everyone must be in church on Sunday morning.

And it's nothing at all like the smoking ban, which isn't a ban at all - simply a restriction on where you can smoke, enacted not for the benefit of the smoker but as a health and safety measure intended to protect those who work in public spaces and therefore don't have the choice to avoid passive inhalation.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Hang on. It's not that arbitrary . We're not simply projecting our feelings onto animals. We've feeling empathy for them, they're living creatures and we can relate to feelings of suffering that they may feel. Surely it's borderline psychopathic if we didn't feel such empathy for them. I also think it's rather patronising, albeit quite funny, to suggest that this phenomenon is confined to a Disneyfied view of the world where they sing and dance for us.

I admit there is a degree of hypocrisy to the fact I am not a vegetarian which I mostly get away with because the killing is abstracted away from me but also because I try not to buy products where the animal suffers and because I view the use of some animals for food as ethical different to killing them for sport.

Anyway unlike four years ago I probably wouldn't oppose this ban being lifted. Not because I think fox hunting is a good thing but because I dislike the idea of the Government passing laws and criminalising people unless there is a really good reason to so. My own view of the ethicality of Fox Hunting is certainly not a good enough reason.

However we've had this discussion before haven't we? I am surprised you're arguing about arbitrary morality and illiberal legislation because I think that we were on opposite sides of this debate when it came to Gay Marriage. Unless I misunderstood your position (which is possible) you were against the legalisation of it because of your own moral code whereas I was both for it in terms of morality but also believed that it wasn't the Governments place to enforce your/their morality on other people. What's the difference between the Government enforcing someone's moral view of Fox Hunting and the Government enforcing someone else's moral view of Marriage? Surely you already accept there is a such a thing as morality derived from a 'higher power'. Be it God or empathy for animals.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You may well argue that, but many would say that you're arguing from an archaic position. It simply is no longer the case that we judge the way we treat animals by the way they are treated in nature. These days, we recognise that animals deserve to be treated with a certain amount of respect, and should be spared unnecessary suffering. That, rightly or wrongly, is the background of the ban on fox hunting. By and large, society has decided that animals deserve respect. That's democracy doing its job, not democracy misfiring.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

:tu:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

If the fox has to be culled then fine, do it with a gun not by dogs so that the people watching can

A. look on it as a sport.

B. Get some perverse pleasure from the act.

Why do a bunch of people have to chase the fox into the ground whilst making a sport and spectacle out of it. I would love to post a link to some of the videos of those people screaming and shouting and having a laugh at the death of an animal but i will not because it will upset people who may not have seen what its like in the first place.

A farmer with his shotgun can do it with less stress to the animal. However there is no fun or sport in that

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

If you are saying that hunts are using eagles to kill the foxes then fine ,it certainly is a lot more natural and civilized than setting a pack of dogs onto it ,tearing it apart and then wiping whats left all over some kids face.
Culling foxes is needed ,they have very few natural predators and none at all in most parts of the UK ,so any method used will be unpalatable to some

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Why do you care how total strangers derive pleasure? What business of yours is it in any case?

As others have said, the assertion that death by shotgun is better from an animal welfare point of view is contested. Anything less than a clean kill results in prolonged suffering to the animal. The shotgun can also make no distinction between the stronger and weaker animals. Chasing down foxes with dogs offers the possibility that the stronger animals survive while the weaker are killed, which is better for the species. This may not be the reason the hunters do it, but it is nevertheless the case.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Many moons ago total strangers derived pleasure (some still do) from dog fighting ,society grew up and made it illegal because of the cruelty factor ,the same ideals have been applied to fox hunting

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

they should either invest or the gov should give grants to help cover costs of protecting land

http://www.electricfencing.co.uk/foxes.asp

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You throw terms like "borderline psychopathic" around far too freely. It simply shows a severe lack of awareness of your own culture's history and development. You can't, at a stroke, classify whole swathes of the past and present population of these islands as "borderline psychopathic" just because you find their behaviour distasteful.

And you say you're not simply reading your own feelings on to animals while at the same time saying you want to "relate to suffering they may feel" .... "may" being the operative word here. You don't know, so what feelings are you assuming to be at play? Can you put yourself into the mind of a fox, or can you in fact only ever hope to put yourself in the mind of a person trying to imagine what it might be like to be a fox? No amount of method acting is going to get you close to understanding what being an animal is like, not least because animals lack a sense of self which would enable them even to decide for themselves how they feel.

The read-across to the gay marriage debate is, I believe, the opposite of what you have suggested. Marriage as an institution predates our culture and our legislature. Until the 18th century you could be married without relying on any statute at all: the phrase "common law wife/husband" is only now beginning to fall out of common parlance, despite it having been legislated away centuries ago.

All over the world, throughout history, human societies have recognised a lifetime pairing between one man and one woman. In a small part of the world, at one particular moment in history, a few states with a common, largely post-religious, materialist philosophical outlook, have sought not simply to extend a legal privilege - reform to the civil partnerships laws could have achieved that - but to legislate against an ancient belief, still current in most of the world, regarding what marriage, fundamentally, is. If you think that is not what is proposed, then bookmark this thread and we'll take up the discussion the first time Stonewall finds a test case to take to the ECHR.

I digress. ;)

I should make a point about your conflating arbitrary morality and religious belief. Again, that's a myopic position to hold; the judgments of right and wrong that an individual makes for himself are simply not on the same philosophical plane as the external, absolute truth claimed by any of the world's major religions, whether or not you believe in the God that stands behind them. Even taken as mere philosophies of life, they have been around for millennia and have survived the rise and fall of empires , and will survive the fall of ours. Arbitrary morality, it isn't.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I've already reppred Chris in this thread.

But his argument and logic is flawless.

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Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't 'throw it around' too easily. However an inability to empathise with an animals suffering is an apt time to use it. A lack of empathy is a classic trait of psychopathy. I put borderline because it applies to an animal and not a human. I am not classifying them as borderline psychopathic either, just the act of not empathising, I don't know how they feel when they see the fox in pain.

I don't know what being a fox is like but we can tell when an animal is in distress and in pain. We feel those sensations as well. We share some of our base experiences with animals such as fear and pain. They can't think or rationalise it but they certainly do feel it. It's those experiences that allow us to emphasise with other species. Even more so when we get to the more intelligent animals.

I don't want to digress too much either. Still from my point of view you're suggesting the Government continues to block what two people do that doesn't involve yourself. Not everyone believes a marriage should be between a man and a woman and should instead be between two individuals. We believe the definition should be updated.

Why is a morality derived from a belief in a deity/philosophy any more valid than one derived from an internal sense of right and wrong? We have empathy and a conscience that helps inform that morality and if you're an atheist (like me!) you believe that religious teachings of right and wrong come from man's internal sense of morality anyway.

It's getting a big abstract here anyway. I think the gay marriage thing is not too different to the fox hunting thing: Should a Government ban things that you're morally against if it causes no harm to others? Although there are probably extremes you could take thatargument too.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

This is true, a shot gun is not a "hunting rifle". To kill with a shot gun you have to be fairly close range.

Also as you know, shot guns don't contain bullets, they contain shot, pellets, that disperse when fired. Depending how accurate you want to be decides the size and no. of pellets in the cartridge.

It is quite probably that a fox shot at by a shot gun, unless standing right over it, could be hit several times by the pellets in various places but not killed and in fact may even be able to escape and crawl in to hide somewhere. where it would bleed to death and in pain.

Also, I live in the countryside, have done for 5 years, never seen a fox. Heard them at night, found their faeces in my garden and in the surrounding fields, but never seen one.

Because, of course, they're nocturnal. Now, do you think a farmer or gamekeeper walks around at night with night vision goggles looking for foxes to kill on the off chance he runs into one???????

No, they don't, they set traps and snares. So the fox is trapped by a snare it struggles all night in vain to escape panicing, damaging itself in the process. It could be there days, then if it hasn't died a miserable death already, the farmer turns up and shoots it.

If I was a fox, I know what which way I'd prefer to go.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

If that's how your farmer buddies are doing then they are doing it wrong .If a snare is set correctly then the animal will die quickly


No ,they walk around in the daylight to the set and destroy it ,if there are foxes in it at the time then they will kill them .

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Wrong, snares are not designed to kill. they are designed to trap and hold the fox.

The law requires that snares should be checked at least once a day and and as soon after dawn as is practical is recommended.

However, I know that some may left for several days before they are checked.

Do they? and how do they destroy the set and kill the fox's inside?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I'm not going into the ins and outs of setting a snare(it's many years since i did that, and not very successfully then) .At the end of the day fox hunting is illegal and it will remain illegal .We are an advanced society and have more humane ways to control pests .Hunts have grown in popularity since the ban ,more foxes are being killed so what is the problem ?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The problem is, the simple, straightforward version of the hunt remains illegal, due to an illiberal piece of legislation that took up mountains more parliamentary time than it was worth, and animal "rights" activists are using that legislation as an excuse to engage in surveillance in an attempt to criminalise ordinary people for pursuing a pastime they previously did legally, as did generations of their ancestors. That, incidentally, includes the RSPCA, which is increasingly throwing hundreds of thousands of pounds raised by ordinary, well-meaning animal lovers in politically-motivated prosecutions, many of which have been so incompetently brought that they are failing in any case.

The fox hunting ban is very difficult to prosecute under, has not reduced fox killings and has not reduced hunt participation. It is bad law. Bad law has no place on the statute book.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Out of interest would you also unban dog fighting?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Chris ,it was never intended to reduce fox killings or reduce the hunt participation ,it was intended to remove the intended animal cruelty and gratification of that cruelty in much the same way as dog fighting was made illegal ,making people criminals who had before been engaging in a sport and had done for generations

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And what about sheep shagging?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

An activity in which dogs are trained (brutalised) to act contrary to their nature, in unnatural surroundings? I can see what you're trying to do, but you're trying to categorise everything under the heading "sports where animals get hurt" when I would argue "sports where animals do what they do" would be nearer the mark so far as fox hunting is concerned. And dog fighting doesn't fit that category.

Animals fight, that's natural, but they have a flight response as well as a fight response in any given situation and that it both beaten out of them and also physically barred from them in a fighting pit. Likewise for cock fighting, especially when the birds are tooled up with blades on their feet.

I might just as well ask if you would seek to ban angling.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I asking more because of the class aspect. There have been suggestions that Fox Hunting was banned partly to spite the people who take part as they are often rural and would be considered members of the upper class. Dog fighting would be an example of a 'sport' that is banned for reasons of animal welfare that would traditionally be seen as a 'working class' pursuit. The comparison isn't exact but I can't help but think that if Fox Hunting was conducted by a bunch of teenagers with a pitbull chasing Foxes though an urban estate it would have been banned sooner than it was. So I don't buy the notion that this was because of the class of the people who did it.

It may not be as cruel but it's still making a sport of animal suffering. It's still somewhat contrived rather than simply being nature in action. Foxhounds tend to be trained for the hunt for example and there would be additional techniques used by the hunters to find and draw out foxes that would not be available to the foxes. So Foxhunting as a sport isn't natural either.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Except, and IMO it's a pretty big exception, the fox can get away. A fighting dog, or a cock, cannot.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Not suggestions, that's exactly what happened, arch buffoon Tony Banks was actually jumping up and down in the commons the night it got banned shouting "that showed the toffs", classy.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yes i would and is why i do not go fishing.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Fair comment. :tu: if you were younger and fitter, would you go angler sabbing? Is there such an activity?