Re: smoking and the pub
 

A great many dangerous activities remain legal, but are universally restricted in their use for health and safety reasons.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Of course it is about what people want. If public opinion is such that they want smoking to be allowed then they can follow their democratic right to put in power such people who will ensure their will be observed in legislation. Smoking is a health and safety issue and legislation already exists to cover the effects of smoking. This legislation contains provisions which give a choice as to whether most places are smoke free or not.

Most businesses can legally allow smoking on their premises. Read up on the Health and Safety at Work Laws http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/smoking.htm . Pub owners are not that special. Many places where smoking is banned have imposed the ban of their own free will and not as a result of legislation. Can you post a list of where smoking is banned in the UK by legislation?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I stated that it can be harmful for my health. Also long term exposure to music at legal levels is harmful to my health.
My point to you and Salu, which for some reason you appear to have deliberately missed (could it be because it defeats your argument?), is that I have the choice to expose myself to such dangers, just as I have the choice to expose myself to the dangers of many other things, such as entering a smoking establishment or crossing the road without looking.
You also have this choice, however you appear to believe that you do not.

So instead of giving the majority of patrons and potential patrons what they want, landlords should cater for the minority of potential patrons and all suffer finacially (as has happened in the other countries which have brought in a blanket ban), risk going out of business (as the lounge did but they won't have someone to buy it up and make a success of it) with the loss of jobs, the reduction in taxes, the increase in alcohol abuse and all that goes with it?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But it is banned in many places, cinemas, restaurants, airplanes, trains, buses, subways, why not pubs?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just to lift one example there, but smoking isn't banned on trains - the last train I got on Midland Mainline had a smoking carriage.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I cannot post the list you requested, because upon further research it appears that you are correct in that many places ban smoking out of their free will. I wonder why.....:scratch:
Ach, you really do not want to drop this do you...
You are not defeating our point at all. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if there are smoking and non-smoking pubs, I can choose which I want to go it. But I don't want to have to choose where I go based on whether or not I will expose myself to harmful cigarette smoke. Sound selfish? Ah well, it has been said a million times already but I still stand by my point. I consider the health of the staff to also be important. Oh and by the way, what happens if you live next door to someone who repeatedly plays their music loud enough for you to hear it? I expect you might ask them to turn it down...similar to me asking someone to stop smoking in my presence...
Non-smokers are in the majority.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3015995.stm
What makes you think there would be an increase in alcohol abuse? And furthermore, if there is, doesn't that say that we need to target that in addition to reducing smoking in public places?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Non-smokers do not make up the majority of pub goers. Where did you get the idea that they did from? Look at some of the figures that publicans have for the percentage of their customers who are smokers at http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=18936

Re: smoking and the pub
 

At the risk of repeating myself (again), non-smokers are the majority of the population, and if they are not a majority of pub goers, it is because that group is self-selecting. The non-smokers don't go because it's smoky, but according to the quote posted by Clarie, when smoking bans are introduced, they start to return.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

by the people that own and run these establishments

My point exactly.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I never said they did. As Chris T says non-smokers form the majority of the population. Xaccers is claiming that non-smokers are the minority of potential pub goers. Which simply isn't true. Anyone is a potential pub goer for a landlord, therefore non-smokers are the majority.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And the majority of pub staff and potential staff let's not forget.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not in the case of aircraft. Smoking here is banned by law. What about your free choice to light up on the way to Marbella?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Can you explain why when the oft mentioned The Lounge became non-smoking that non-smokers didn't rush in in droves to sample the smoke free atmosphere? Don't you think that market forces would mean that if the majority of people wanted non-smoking pubs then they would flourish in areas where non-smoking pubs existed. The fact that even where competition in an area between smoking and non-smoking pubs exists there is no movement for more pubs to take the no-smoking route suggests there is something radically wrong with your thinking.

Look at the Health and Safety at Work laws which do not impose a complete ban on smoking. Why can there be a compromise in that law which cannot be equally made in the case of pubs?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Regarding the varying worries about the ban being implemented here we can look to Ireland where a ban has been in place for a while.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=32164

Cotinine (pronounced cot-tin-een) levels in the saliva of non-smokers were reduced by 80%. This indicates less exposure to smoke.
The bar staff experienced a significant drop in respiratory symtoms.
Public support for the ban rose from 43% to 67%. In bars/pubs this increased from 13% to 46%!
More than 80% of Irish smokers surveyed said that the smoke free law was "a good or very good thing".
Of those who had stopped smoking over 80% said that the law had helped them to do so.

Having a trawl around some other medical journals this came up from the European Respiratory Journal which is interesting.

http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/full/24/3/337
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Good point.

So if someone moved in next door to Xaccers and decided to exercise their "right" to play his/her music at full blast, Xaccers would not have a problem "choosing" to move house???

Re: smoking and the pub
 

For the millionth time in this thread ian, this is not about preference or profit-making, it's about health!!!
Russ has already said that there were many reasons that The Lounge went out of business. Are you really confident that resting your argument on one bar in Swansea is going to make your point loud and clear? It's hardly a good model for what could happen if a ban were introduced, and in fact it supports my argument for the blanket ban.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It seems self-evident to me that following a ban, it would take time for the effect of non-smokers returning to occur, as word of mouth and changing attitudes begin to penetrate. Perhaps you could explain why, despite being presented with evidence to the contrary, you persist in claiming your point by referring to one single establishment (the Lounge), whose non-smoking policy was not even introduced in the context of an outright ban, which is after all what we're meant to be discussing? There is nothing 'radically wrong' with my thinking on this issue.

Think of it this way - the Friday night revellers are that self selecting group who either smoke or don't mind sitting with those who do. They walk past The Lounge and why don't they go in? Because the likelihood is, one or more of their party is a smoker. And because they don't mind the smoke too much, they go somewhere else. Thus The Lounge fails.

Several of us have been saying all along that this ban will only work effectively if it is universally applied to both food and non-food establishments.

The Law is a constantly evolving and developing thing, and it evolves at the pace society can tolerate. At the time that legislation was drawn up, society was not ready to support such radical action. Now, it is. This smoking ban has been framed as health and safety legislation, so its effect may well be to amend the laws you refer to.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You are quite free to do so if the airline you are flying with allows smoking and the aircraft is not registered in a country which has smoking bans in aircraft.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And you're free to continue smoking in a pub that's not in a country which has a smoking ban! Purleeeze, stop body-swerving. UK law makes the act of smoking on UK-registered aircraft illegal, just as UK law* is soon to make the act of smoking in UK pubs illegal.

What, exactly, is the difference? Why are we not continually assailed with 1000-post threads arguing about the infringement of civil liberties caused by the ban on smoking in aircraft? After all, if enough people wanted to fly on smoke-free planes, market forces would provide them and they could choose to fly smoke-free, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

*Albeit separately for Scotland, England, Wales and NI

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The smoking populus are not nasty, unreasonable people.

They understand that in the workplace, public buildings (such as Libraries, courts, hospitals etc), public transport (Buses, planes etc)

However, the pub is where you go to relax, after a days work, not being able to smoke at their place of work, they want to go and relax with a drink and a smoke.

however, those in support of a total ban wish to deprive them of this.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I think their should be special rooms for smoker's that are (a) away from pub staff so staff dont have to enter the area (b) only if the landlord wants to permit it at all and (c) only in the winter and general bad weather makes it not plausable to go outside.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Who would be the person to have to go in and collect empties, empty ash trays, and clean up at the end of the evening?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just becuase the room is separate is doesn't mean it wont be subject to air extraction guidelines.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But these do not always work.
Yes because there is an alternative to this, it's called home. At home no one else has to passively smoke, or if they do, it means that the smoker is a nasty, unreasonable person.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

From 'Ventilation and Air Filtration: The Science', at http://www.no-smoke.org/document.php?id=268

"The Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America adopted a disclaimer that states: "Some air cleaners may help to reduce secondhand smoke to a limited degree, but no air filtration or air purification system can completely eliminate all the harmful constituents of secondhand smoke. The U.S. Surgeon General has determined secondhand smoke to cause heart disease, lung cancer, and respiratory illness. Also, a simple reduction of secondhand smoke does not protect against the disease and death caused by exposure to secondhand smoke."

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Clarie, you have to admit that this one is fairly ridiculous. If I choose to have a fag in my own home, why does that make me 'a nasty, unreasonable person'? The only time I smoke in the same room as Mrs Nug now is when we're watching something on the TV and it's after 10 o'clock. Other than that, I'm either in another room or outside.

If Mrs Nug comes into the dining room, for example, there's not a lot I can do to legislate for that. IMO, it's a little harsh to suggest that, in a house that I pay for, I can't smoke around other people, if I so choose,

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't think I am being ridiculous but you are right in that the words 'nasty and unreasonable' are harsh words, I only chose them because they were the ones Pierre used. :)

However I still think it careless to smoke in front of other people, unless of course they don't mind, in your own home. If Mrs Nug is happy to be there when you smoke, well that's nothing to do with me. But I meant more for people who don't like their partners smoking around them and particularly for those who smoke in front of children and pets.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Fair enough then :)

Having said that, I dare you to find a way to stop a cat from following you everywhere if you're trying to avoid it when you're having a fag ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:D
Just shut him in a room or outside until you have done?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nah, then they'll just poo in a corner somewhere to punish me :disturbd:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So you say that the time is now right to support such radical action. Who says that the time is now right and if it is why has a complete ban on smoking in all enclosed places not been implemented?

What are the facts as applied to England where I reside?

There is no legislation that bans smoking in all public places and there may never be such legislation.

There is no legislation that bans smoking in places that serve alcohol and there may never be such legislation.

There is no legislation that bans smoking in places that serve food and there may never be such legislation.

No matter what the anti smoking brigade want they have to remember that the millions of people who are entitled to vote in this country and who also smoke will have to be listened to by any government in power who will balk at upsetting such a powerful section of the voting populace. I cannot see any solution being accepted that doesn't offer some sort of compromise.

No matter how many times the anti smoking posters in this thread say "for the millionth time" and words to that effect it doesn't alter the basic fact that their view of the situation may be completely at odds with the truth. In fact the very saying shows that they are not telling the truth.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Why would it take time for the effect of non-smokers to return? If there was such a demand for it, coupled with some well placed ads etc, you would think the place would have been heaving.
I think this is a nice attempt to discredit a good example which doesn't fit your argument. Presumably the problems with the Lounge we're referring to occured quite recently, therefore in the context of prevailing attitudes towards smoking and the lead up to ban, not 30 years ago.


Self-selecting or typical pub/club goers. If your statement is true then what does that say. You would still think that the non-smoking policy of just one out of many alternatives would have drawn enough custom to remain viable.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The Labour Party says it's right, and put it in its manifesto. The electorate democratically (within the limitations of our system) agreed with them and put them in power.

The Cabinet has agreed the wording of the Bill, and has introduced it to Parliament. It *will* be passed into Law, and it is the stated intention of the Health secretary that the new law will be a precursor to an outright ban within three years - three years, incidentally, is still within the lifetime of the current Parliament.

Where you say 'there may never be such legislation': on some of your points, maybe, but on the issue of smoking where food is served ... well, stick your head in the sand if you want. You'll be forced to come to terms with it within about 18 months from now.

It's interesting what you say about Government and other parties having to listen to a powerful section of the populace ... do you really think there's a cat in hell's chance of this being repealed once it's passed? Especially as in the UK, only 25% of people smoke and that number is dwindling steadily?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Pot kettle - kettle pot

Re: smoking and the pub
 

We are saying 'for the millionth time' so frequently because we are going round in circles, and how on earth does that suggest we are not telling the truth??
Do we know there were well-placed ads?
Similarly your use of it is a nice attempt to leap with enthusiasm on the one case mentioned that fits in with your argument.
Since none of us know anything about why the Lounge closed I suggest it is misleading to use it in such an argument.

I know a LOT of people who would love to be able to go to genuine non-smoking establishments.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

People are people. They get into a habit of going certain places and doing certain things. There's nothing controversial about that.

Not in the slightest. Rather, it's an appeal for evidence arising out of a context that bears at least *some* resemblance to the matter under discussion. For complete refutation of The Lounge as an adequate example of anything in this topic, why not look to Ireland, where the outright smoking ban has signally failed to bankrupt every pub in the country (or even most, or many, of them). So, we want to establish what might happen to business when smoking is excluded. We are confronted with the choice of examining one bar in Swansea, competing against a couple of dozen others where smoking is still allowed, or examining all bars in Ireland, where a ban has been introduced. I know, let's choose the example that fits the circumstances, not the one that fits the point we want to make, shall we? ;)

I would not have thought so at all, for the reasons I posted previously.

What makes a typical pub-goer? Is there something in the genes of a person who likes to socialise in a public house with a glass of alcoholic drink that predisposes them towards being a smoker, or one who doesn't mind smoke?

You have only to write that proposal down to see how ridiculous it looks. Back to Ireland, where a post-ban drop in drink sales of 15% has been more than compensated for in new food sales. It seems (though it is admittedly early days) that the clientele is beginning to change.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:wtf:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I wouldn't have thought there would have needed to have been the way the anti-smoking lot harp on ;)

Ah yes, but an example nonetheless. can't think of a pub that has closed because it was sold itself as smoking pub. And i wonder what would have happened if the reverse were true. One smoking pub out of 30 non-smoking.

True, but educated guesses nonetheless.

Where were they when the Lounge needed them? (Although I will concede the it may not have been a 'good' pub regardless of the smoking policy)

It's amazing the energy smokers have. you'd have thought we'd have been puffed out long ago :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just because an item is in a political parties manifesto doesn't mean that the voting populace put them in power because of that one item. It could be other items in the manifesto weighed against what was in the other parties manifestos that enabled them to win.

If you remember correctly the wording of the bill resulted in delays to its publication and was altered significantly just prior to publication. Many bills are introduced to Parliament and never result in legislation or are altered so much that the resultant legislation is completely different to what was originally on the table. Don't forget also that opposition parties often take a stance against government proposals, particularly on highly emotive issues where a fair proportion of government MPs may be (and in the case of a complete smoking ban are) at odds with their leadership. I suggest that your emphatic *will* be altered to *MAY*.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Please remember that we have no way of knowing if the pub closed purely because it was non-smoking. Furthermore we have no way of knowing the answer to your rhetorical question.
Not living in Swansea ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If you truly, truly believe that - well, I don't need to say any more to try to convince you otherwise. I am happy to let history run its course and I'm confident that what eventually gets onto the statute book will be *at least* as strict as the initial Bill. If you'd been following this in the Media you would know that the likelihood is it will get beefed up in the Commons, not watered down as is often the case with Bills.

As for the point about voting and manifestos - I agree, which is why I put 'within the limitations' in my post. ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

In reference to all the nasty - unreasonable stalinist non-smokers and their oppressive views.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Filtration of purification - no, extraction yes, however you would need to be standing in a howling gale for it to be fully effective.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah really nasty of us to ask you to respect our healths. All hail the poor oppressed smokers. :devsmoke:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Assuming 'extraction' and 'ventilation' are the same thing, here's another from the same page:

"Changes in ventilation rates during smoking do not have a significant influence on the air concentrations of tobacco components. This means, in effect, that efforts to reduce indoor air pollution through higher ventilation rates in buildings and homes would hardly lead to a measurable improvement of indoor air quality."
http://www.no-smoke.org/document.php?id=268 (Which is the Americans for Nonsmokers Rights website, but this paragraph is based on European Union research: "Joint Research Centre, Indoor air pollution: new EU research reveals higher risks than previously thought. Brussels: European Commission. September 22, 2003.")

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Robots?


Oh don't be ridiculous. Of course an outright ban is not going to bankrupt every pub in the country and I have never suggested it would. People will aways frequent pubs ban or no ban. The point, which is still a valid one, is that when punters were confronted with a choice the non-smoking establishment folded. In the lead up to the ban this is worhtwhile analysing as it demonstrates what much of the clientele seemed to have preferred. Deal with it.

I'm not a geneticist, but no doubt there is a genetic link to an addictive personality, and introversion/extroversion. Doesn't sound so ridiculoius couched in those terms.

Ah, so where are the smokers going? Puffing away at home probably. Do you know whether smoking cessation rates have gone up?
__________________

It was a hypothetical rather than rhetorical question so we can at least hazard a guess.

Can't argue with that ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, human nature. :confused:

Which is why The Lounge is a bad example...

I offered a scenario to explain this above, in post 1016. So I have already dealt with it. ;)

No, you can justify just about anything if you dress it in pseudoscience.

Now we really are going round in circles. Here:

" Irish pubs are now focussing on measures to limit the effects of the ban on their business. The sale of outdoor patio heaters has rocketed in Ireland this year as pubs develop outdoor areas where smoking customers can congregate to"have a smoke". There is some preliminary evidence to suggest that smoking levels have reduced and surveys clearly indicate that smokers smoke less now when out for a night in the pub since they must leave the company they are in and go outdoors to smoke. Whether the ban will substantially reduce the overall smoking levels in Ireland remains to be seen, but there is good reason to believe that this will be the case."

(From: http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/full/24/3/337 )

I have read elsewhere (but can't spot the link just now) that those early indications are that 1 in 12 smokers have already quit as a result of the ban in Ireland.

Note also that they are not puffing away at home, they are puffing away outside the pub, but generally puffing away rather less than they were. This has obvious health benefits for the smoker as well as those sat next to him.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Fine by me!
Here are some facts and figures:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...nd-smoke_x.htm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1774

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The smokers still go to the pubs. The pubs have, in many cases, provided covered smoking areas outside the pub. In one case, a pub has parked a double decker bus outside for the smoking clientele. These areas are always crowded.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Clarie!!?? I thought linking to the Daily Mail was a crime punishable by death, what with it being a reactionary, 'hang 'em and flog 'em', hateful article.

Unless it's particularly relevant, of course ;)
__________________

In the case of the bus, that's probably because of all the drunken layabouts who think it's taking them home ;) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You suggested that one reason it may have taken time to do well was beacuase of people's habits. I don't doubt that was part of it but human nature also consists of curiosity and the ability to make a choice. Most people will at least try something to see what's it's like. Hence i don't understand your confusion. Unless of course people are addicted to certain bars as they are nicotine ;)



Fair enough, although single example may be more accurate.


No I can assure you that there is nothing false about these kinds of studies.



It feels so good to agree. (A bit like the first drag in the morning ;))
__________________

I know I'm already clearing my history/cache as we speak :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

We have no way of knowing how good the pub was, as you mentioned before. The fact that it was a non-smoking pub may have been a factor but we have no idea how much. So there is really no point in further discussing it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If a next door neighbour was to continually play their music at the legal limit, then I am not in a position to demand they do not continue to do so.
Just as while I'm sleeping during the day from working nights, I cannot demand that the builders down the road stop using their JCB's or Jack Hammers, and I certainly wouldn't demand legislation to be able to do so! Instead I close the window.
If someone is performing a completely legal activity which I do not want to participate in, it is up to me and not them to rectify the matter, either by moving myself away, or putting up a barrier of protection between myself and their activities.
Additionally, such activities by my neighbour would also have a detrimental effect on my health, despite what you have claimed.

UK registered airlines ban smoking due to fire risks not respitory health risks.

It is pointless talking about a ban on smoking in pubs as there is no such ban put forward.
There is however a proposed ban on smoking in places which serve food.
This will lead the establishment to either drop smoking, or drop food.
Now a large restaurant such as Harvester where it's main income is from food is not likely to suffer much (I'd also like to point out that in every harvester I've been in, there has been no smoke at all in the eating area so the ban won't make a difference to patrons who go there to eat), however, pubs which serve food but are predominantly still a drinking establishment are the ones who will be forced to drop food rather than smoking.
The Lounge is a prime example of what happens when a drinking establishment drops smoking while other establishments allow it (by dropping food post ban).
They go bust.
The Lounge used to be a smoking establishment and didn't go bust, it gave up smoking and died.
People would rather drink in a smoking pub than in a similar pub which is non-smoking and serves food.
Now Clarie, I know you don't like us using the Lounge as an example because it is such a good example, and you can go on about "a blanket ban which levels the playing field" but as a blanket ban is not what is being proposed, your'e talking about what if's and maybe's rather than what actually is likely to happen.
After the ban on smoking in establishments which serve food, you'll have fewer places to eat simply because pubs who serve food will no longer be able to, even those who have seperated no-smoking areas which are completely smoke free, and only request their workers who are smokers to work in the smoking area.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Plus the part you continuously neglect to mention, they did not get the financial aid and promotion which other businesses have recieved to help them succeed.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I like this thread. I was concerned I had amnesia, but I see now I am remembering whole chunks of dialogue from earlier on, when they get posted again.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Did it get that financial aid at all during it's existance, or just not while operating as a non-smoking establishment?
Has every other pub/bar/restaurant in that area recieved aid and the Lounge was the only one which did not?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not sure - but the aid that local business apply to the Welsh Assembly for when they're in trouble from increased/unfair competiton was refused on 4 different occasions.

3 other bars in Wind Street applied for it and were successful.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Is that you're not sure what it's smoking status was at the time of the applications, or your not sure if it's recieved ait at all?


I'm I right in thinking there are more than 4 bars in Wind Street?
Did only the 3 successful bars and the Lounge apply for the aid, or have other bars also been unsuccessful

Really greatful for all the info Russ :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Therefore you are not always in a position to choose whether or not to expose yourself to it.
Yeah you might have to move house. I bet you would be annoyed about that wouldn't you.
So we agree then that sometimes people impose things upon us that have a detrimental effect on our health.
No Xaccers, I don't like talking about the Lounge because it is an extremely bad example. You can continue to use it if you wish, but bear in mind you know nothing about why it closed, and it does not prove anything at all as regards the smoking ban.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not sure if they've even applied for it - I'm not aware they're in any trouble at the moment, which is what the package is for.

Yes, there are more. However the stats* for last year showed that during 2004 (when 3 of it's 4 applications were turned down) 47 businesses in the Swansea area successfully recieved the hardship grant out of 62 applications*. Up until June of this year no business other than The Lounge had been turned down 4 times.


*still hunting for the link, will post it when i find it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

As I said, I have the choice to take steps to protect myself without interfering with someone else's legal activity.
Just as you do.
The difference is, while I'm willing to take responsibility for my own health, you want everyone else to take responsibility for yours.

The Lounge as a smoking establishment didn't close.
The Lounge became a non-smoking establishment and went bust.
The Lounge was re-opened as a smoking establishment and hasn't gone bust

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yet. It's only been reopened since June.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So if there was a persistent problem with the music you wouldn't get a tad annoyed?
So? :shrug: Repeating all of this isn't helping your case. It is not a good example as has been said many times before and has nothing to do with what would happen if a ban were introduced.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, hence some of the health issues which you denied.
However, if my neighbour is not breaking any laws, it is up to me, as the person who is responsible for my health, to take steps to reduce the damage to a level which is acceptable to me, such as insulating the walls, wearing earplugs, moving house, installing double glazing etc.
It certainly doesn't involve interfering with my neighbour's ability to perform a legal activity.
You see, as I said, I take responsibility for my own health.

Repeating "it's a bad example" won't make it a bad example Clarie, I've given several reasons as to why it is a good example.

It was successful as a smoking establishment.
It failed as a non-smoking establishment, despite having the monopoly on non-smoking establishments in Wind Road.
Therefore if there was a mass demand for non-smoking pubs, it would have had sufficient numbers of customers to survive, after all, it managed while being a smoking establishment, and you claim that would mean it was catering to a minority.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

In that case, does anyone have another example that we can use? frankly the discussion about the lounge is getting rather boring as it is just going round and round in circles. Someone must know of another non smoking pub- or perhaps people don't want to mention it because of the success/ failure that it has been for fear that it will weaken their arguments.

One note about The Lounge though- it did amuse me how on two occasions i went past the lounge and saw two members of staff... standing outside.... smoking!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Idealy we need to hear about pubs which do food on the side as it is those who will be affected the most by the ban, rather than pubs which just do booze.

So, either a pub which does food on the side and its' success or failure at going 100% smoke free, and a similar pub and it's success or failure by ditching food.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What financial aid and promotion were they entitled to ?
A business thrives or fails on its' product or services, if they are not what the customer wants the business goes into liquidation.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Have you not heard of start-up grants, financial aid etc?

The aid and promotion is a feature set up by the City and Borough of Swansea Council (and funded by the Welsh Assembly) to help business which can demonstrate they are suffering hardship through increased or unfair competition. It's usually granted to small cornershops when a large supermarket arrives on their doorstep, that sort of thing.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

OMG Get over it!! What you're saying isn't even true!!!
So you wouldn't consider going round and asking if they would turn it down?
Have you read the above posts on this issue? You may need to re-read them. The main issues are:
a) People have habits as regards where they go and drink. One bar is not likely to change this immediately.
b) We do not know that the only reason the pub failed was due to the non-smoking policy.
c) You cannot rely on the example of one bar out of thousands.
d) As has already been said repeatedly in this thread, until a country-wide ban on smoking is introduced in bars, or even those that serve food, it is not possible to gauge how the British public will react. It is highly unlikely that the habits of the non-smokers who choose not to go to pubs because of the smoky atmosphere are going to suddenly start going out because one bar on a busy street of bars has introduced a non-smoking policy.
c) My issue has never been with profits, nor has it been with what people want, per se. As has been said many times, currently the pub going majority are smokers, but a widespread ban could well change this. The fact that one bar failed does not negate this.
d) One of the reasons for the call for a ban on smoking in public places is that it could encourage people to quit. Again, one bar will not have this effect alone.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hey, you're the one who denied it.

Yes, but they are free to say no, just as if you wanted, you could ask a landlord to make your local a smoke free enviroment, and they are free to say no.

a) What about the habbits of the "majority" non-smokers who avoid pubs because of the smoke? Surely if you supply them with a non-smoking pub, which you claim there are plenty of customers just waiting for the oppertunity to frequent, then such a place in a sea of smoking pubs is going to be raking it in, unless of course the majority of people who go to pubs in that area accept the risks of passive smoking and go to smoking pubs, but then, that would mean your assertion was wrong.
b) Smoking: bar is successful. Introduces non-smoking policy: bar is unsuccessful even though from what you've said, there should have been loads of people rushing to drink there. Smoking again: bar is successful again.
c) A widespread ban is not on the cards.
d) You do know there is a difference between "encourage" and "coerce" don't you?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ok now I know you're taking the ****
Please see point d in my post.
Yes, I do. You are aware that smoking is bad for you aren't you? And that even if the government try to coerce people into quitting it will not be compulsary? But that quitting is actually a good thing?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not true, If you charter a complete aircraft for a group trip to somewhere, as the hirer you can determine the terms and conditions of that trip.
I went on a jolly from Biggin Hill to Le Touquet with a small group of mainly smokers in the summer.
The standard departure and landing ban on smoking applied but when the NO SMOKING lights were extinguished you could smoke or not smoke as you liked.

A wonderful time was had by all and the cabin was virtually smoke free due to the air handling units. Only downside was I lost money in the Casino, food was wonderful.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sounds similar to a private party and so not a public place.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

a) peoples' drinking habits.
d) ban encouraging people to quit smoking
Ok you've totally lost me.

Are you aware that smoking is a legal activity?
Are you aware that you have a responsibility to protect yourself from known health risks?
__________________

No aircraft is a public place anyway.

Talking about this, I still don't think I've seen a reply from you on private members clubs, where the members will either be denied food, or will have to stand outside to smoke, even though everyone who is there finds smoking acceptable.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My point d in post 1068 was a response to what you were saying here:
Yes. :shrug:
And yet it is a method of transport for the general public.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I made that point after 1068. Can I borrow your time machine please? I promise to share my lottery winnings with you :)

Try just walking on a plane because you're a member of the general public and see how close you get.
Also, and aeroplane is a vehicle, not a place or building.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I know you did. Just thought I would spare myself the time of writing it all out again by just referring you to what I had already said.
Not sure what point you're trying to make to be honest.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Found this which I thought was worth posting re the cultural effects of smoking bans in other countries. http://www.sundayherald.com/46058


I especially liked the Irish experience where a whole new sub-culture appears to be emerging. The ban seems like good news for any singletons out there.;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What have you been smoking tonight clarie???

I was responding to your response to my statement that normal aircrafts are not public places, therefore your point about fireman's chartered flight being a private party doesn't make a difference.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nothing - she gave up years ago remember? ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

A pub near me which serves food, I very much doubt they will get rid of food so they get smokers in it.

A mate of mine who works theres says that they make more money on food on Sat/Sun than they do on booze all week.

So IMHO saying that pubs will go bust if they ban smoking doesn't hold much water to me.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:rofl:
__________________

Great, that's a pub that's more of a food establishment than a drinking one.
My ex's pub however made hardly any money through food in comparison to what they raked in from booze (and they had seating for 80 diners)
Now if they were to ban smoking and loose their regulars because of it (all of whom smoked, one of which did so to death) they would go bust.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Of course quite a few pubs use food for marketing purpposes, to attract custom, from which drink is then their main revenue earner. And draught soft drinks offer the highest margins so attracting more families mightn't be a bad idea.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nothing wrong with attracting more families into pubs, as long as pubs don't become the new McDonalds in their attempt to target children, and ply them with sugar filled crap. Well I suppose it will give Jamie Oliver something else to do in a few years :D

Or, as I posted earlier pubs will be smoke free, alcohol free with a crÃÃâ€*’¨che, soft drinks and approved non-threatening music playing in the background ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Chris T said it was unlawful in any aircraft registered in UK.
Just putting the record straight.
__________________

Private members clubs are a special case. These are not your average establishments such as "The Wheeltappers and Shunters Club" they are the very exclusive clubs as seen in Mayfair etc. where you have to be vetted before you can apply for membership and the members are ballotted on your acceptance, if just one member votes against you are "blackballed" and will not gain membership. A lot of MPs are members of these clubs so it could happen that an MP voted for the restrictions on public smoking whilst still being able to carry on smoking in their club. Whilst the "The Wheeltappers and Shunters Club" will be required to ban it.
Crazy innit !

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Turning that on its head ... are you saying you like your pubs not only smoky, alcohol soaked, child-free and hard-drinking, but also with threatening music? :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's not quite correct. There are environmental laws in place to protect you the "victim" here from other people's selfishness and lack of consideration. Legislation is unfortunately required bacause of this....


Perhaps from a legal point of view but where is understanding and tolerance in this? Assuming that legal activity is smoking then of course they are in their "right" to smoke but depending on where they do it and who it affects then they you would hope that they would be understand of who it affects. Unfortunately people don't hence legislation is required.

It's not pointless at all. We can talk about anything we like on this forum...besides I think it is inevitable, it's just a question of time....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What are you talking about? Do you still not understand what I said? :confused:
Chris T made a point a while back about not being able to smoke on planes, and someone else said 'but you can smoke on flights where a group of people charter a flight.' I was pointing out that this is similar to not being allowed to smoke in a public drinking establishment, but being allowed to smoke at a private party.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Further to the discussion of private planes ...

It has been the tactic of the pro-smokers in this thread to reduce the arguments in favour of a ban and to attempt to deconstruct them, the resulting deconstruction sounding authoritative but actually bearing little resemblance to the matter in hand.

The parallel between aircraft and pubs is clear and obvious. The law bans smoking on the 0730 BA flight from Glasgow to Heathrow and it bans smoking on the Airtours/Monarch/Air2000 charter flight to Marbella/Faro/Gran Caranria/wherever. All of these examples are *public* flights, whether scheduled or chartered, because the *public* are invited to take seats on them.

The matter of private planes chartered by private groups is utterly irrelevant to this discussion, as the Government is not proposing banning smoking in private homes.

Xaccers also mentioned earlier that the smoking ban on planes was introduced for fire safety rather than respiratory health reasons. Again, this is totally irrelevant and misses (I hope not wilfully) the point I was actually making. Here it is again anyway:

We do not hear continuous complaints that our civil liberties and freedom of choice are being infringed by the ban on smoking on aircraft. Why not?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Because noone has chosen to be cantankerous in that area yet??

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hey, that's my local you've just described :Yikes:

It is interesting to note that as yet nobody has commented on the cultural impact of the ban that I posted earlier http://www.sundayherald.com/46058

I was trying to move away from discussing the ban from specifically within a discourse of risk: risk to health, risk to landlords business, risk to increased taxes, risk to mental health, risk of losing choice, etc. etc. And to look at other examples and how the ban has affected them. But it appears that as other threads show (I'm thinking of the Express headlines one specifically), that the culture of fear and risk that we seem to live is what people want to discuss. Which only serves to construct and perpetuate much of that fear. Maybe.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It is an interesting article.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Very funny.
Or are you just proving my point ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well I am not sure what you want me to say. I was being genuine when I said it was interesting. But it doesn't change what I think about the ban. There are still a minority of smokers in this country. We still don't know what will happen if there is a UK ban. And no matter what happens, there are still non-smokers who would like to be protected from the smoke. As I have said all along, I would support a call for a sealed smoking room in pubs. As for this guy:

I would just say "Or......you could quit?"

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I wasn't posting it to change opinion on the ban but to move the conversation on from one of risk to one of other effects, some of which may be unforeseen.

Although it does appear from the Irish example that smokers are having all the fun :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Er, I'm a member of a private club as are many, and they don't by any stretch have to be like The Garrick. Indeed, I wish mine was as upmarket as the Wheeltappers & Shunters! It's a working mens club where people with kids are shunted into a side room which is by far the smokiest in the building. So it's not just club member MPs who will be able to circumvent the ban - which is why I would like it to be total. Donno why the Govt is vacillating as we all know a total ban will eventually be introduced (a point which also kinda makes this thread redundant ;) :) )

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes the government are just slowly climbing down the stairs into the shallow bit rather than dive bombing in at the deep end on this occasion.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It is going to be a couple of years before any ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces that serve food is implemented, if then. Would that time be too close to a general election for it to be on the agenda then? There can be many delaying tactics used to bring it even nearer to general election time and many amendments will probably be on the cards.

When, and if, it eventually gets on the statute books it will have one immediate effect. Many pubs which currently serve food will stop selling food. That will mean that the non-smoker will have even less choice of pubs than they now have if they wish to escape the smoke. They will also have less choice of places where they can eat.

The only sensible solution is to only ban smoking in parts of pubs where food is consumed and allow smoking areas to exist in other parts of the pub.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No it won't. We will have more choice. There may be less places to eat yes. Some pubs may stop serving food, but many others won't.
I agree but the smoking areas will have to be sealed off otherwise they will not be effective.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The only sensible solution is a total ban in enclosed public spaces, otherwise a) you can't protect staff and b) people will try and dodge the legislation as many appear to be planning to do as a result of this fudge.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:tu: Hell I'll support that.