Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Both IE7 & Opera warned me about this site so what is your point?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I couldn't get to that site in IE or FF - got a 404. Maybe I have all the protection I need already without Webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firefox (which is free and has the phishing filter turned on by default) highlighted this as a phishing site with a nice big red warning page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've seen some dumb forum posts in my time but that takes the biscuit.

Please do not post any such links again in the future as it only lends credence to them and risks exposing our forum members to online fraud. We will not tolerate any further breaches of this common sense rule.

Incidentally, when clicking on that link from the Firefox 3 web browser, default security settings prevent the page from opening because it's a known phishing site. No webwise required.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As does IE7, and I don't recall having to pay for that. Maybe Hammy is still on Windows 3.1.1?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bona Fide applications already protect those who really are WEBWISE tout your spyware elsewhere it's not needed here now foxtrot oscar kindly

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well i'm running a Kent rootkit right now, and it let me go straight there!:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Most likely, anyone save that link can PM so i can pass it on too the vendors, meant to save it.

Thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"just got this..."

In other words you went to this site as a result of an email.

I'll type this very slowly as you obviously have trouble reading - Webwise does not prevent phishing emails. It has nothing to do with phishing emails.

The fact that you are getting phishing emails is proof that you are too trusting (I'm being polite) and don't care who you give your personal information to.

Please explain to us all how Webwise will reduce the number of phishing emails.

P.S. Why the warning not to give our details?

Are you saying that you should make that choice for us all and we MUST trust the people that YOU have faith in with the information that YOU decide is acceptable and only block those people or companies that YOU wouldn't give information to?

Think about what you've just posted and you may move from your current standpoint and realise that Webwise removes that choice from all of us in all cases. Only you should ever be allowed to decide who you share your information with and no-one else should ever have access to customers data at an ISP level.

If you are happy to provide Phorm with information about your internet usage then that should be a contractual arrangement between you and Phorm and should not require any involvment from the ISPs. THe whole reason that te BT trials have been delayed for the last two months is that the Webwise system was designed to be undetectable and was meant to be used without the customers' knowldge or consent. They can't get it working as a legitimate tool because it was written as a spyware application.

You are either extremely ill-informed or you don't want people to know and understand the truth about Phorm and Webwise. Either way I hope that visitors to this forum will see through you and disregard your posts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For what it is worth, Opera has excellent built in anti-phishing, all for free. Couldn't test it on that link as it had been deleted... Only those using IE6 or some other earlier browsers will have no anti-phishing, now a very small number of users.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

another missed post

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you haven't closed your browser since you visited the link or you don't delete your history on exit it should still be in your history list.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i also posted to the linked Barbican Talk messageboard there, and put a poll up as they didnt cover Phorm/Webwise there yet, and no one seems to use the poll option there so it might get the locals informed and interested at least.

linked in the 9999 and your 10,000 Protest posts and pointed them back here asking to comment, and help in any way if they can.
http://www.thenuclearfamily.co.uk/ph...wforum.php?f=2

just as i did with the baroness here(didnt hear anything back from her or her team so far though :td: in PM or [E]mail)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So once again some of us have been wasting an afternoon debating in never ending circles something that is probably a red herring as far as WebWise is concerned. The 'anti phishing' feature in WebWise is something that is unnecessary in regards to the superior protection already present in modern browsers and is probably one of the few legal bits of WebWise. I suspect this RED HERRING is there to deflect the attention from what is really going on, no more, no less.

Admin edit (Chris T): Please see warning below

My honest belief is that by reacting you are not helping our cause in any 'Phorm' or manner. It is old ground being regurgitated.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ALL PARTICIPANTS IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND.

We will not tolerate harassment, victimization or bullying of members of this forum. Requesting people to place another member on their 'ignore' list - or implying that they should - falls within our definition of these offences.

Any further posts of this nature and the infraction points are going to start flying. There will be no further warnings.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No WS, its not wasted, we all know it wont change his stance (and thats his right), but it serves a good purpose anyway, for instance, all those local Barbican residents that havent heard about webwise, Phorm or the wiretapping for that matter,can now see an overview of the Phorm talked up advantage points raised, and shot down logicly.

never forget, every day there are more and more readers browsing the thread, as we also post in other places too, and link directly back to this thread.

why do you think the barroness posted, and the other high profile people sitting there as guests :wavey: reading, because i and other people like me, have a policy to inform them, and always ask them to read this thread...

its almost time for all you guests to sign up and speak, before next week preferably, and tell us what you have done to help or can help with etc.... No matter were in the country you might be, you have a PC, the tools, and a talent to use these in great and good ways, please do so, starting today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps Webwise might have been better received had they and Bt not been so transparent(BT and Phorm meaning for this is stealth as per leaked documents)
1st you allow the phorm phormula to be inspected instead of refusals by profesionals without the phorm watchdog.
2nd Public meeting to show phorm is tranaparent (stealth again) since you paid for this to be recorded on a promise it would go online within mins unedited it is so transparent it hasn't been seen since.
3rd Phorm is a rootkit on the network leaves no privacy in the hands of such a transparent company (stealth again you just don't know what he is upto next)
4th It invaides the sanctaty of the home allows anyone using the computer to adjsut the T&C without verification with the account holder.
5th It will profile minors who cannot legally make an informed consent. (with no way of being 100% sure they will never end up profiled with or without consent)
5th It hijacks the browser which many distrust from the old rootkit days.
6th Creates a forged 3rd party cookie creating a less safe surfing.
7th It breaks copyright by imitating to be the website youi wish to visit.
8th it would be like taking a shower in the street you just wouldnt do it so you just wouldn't sign in for phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i just find his nick so apt,

hamsterwheel, a device for small furry rodents to run round in circles and get nowhere

he he

anyway we are all entitled to our opinions as he is his, time to agree to differ

anyway back to businesswell done alex on the fund raising and sorting any legal issues with the demo

peter

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree.

Perhaps, despite some evidence to the contrary, we are too stupid to avoid, or avert, the implementation of Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

are they grasping at straws now ;) or getting ready to do a bunk like all the other bubbles before it.

a digital ad targeting promotion firm, talking to 3rd party agency people, about how they promote the ad agency firms products..... ;)

http://www.brandrepublic.com/News/82...igital-agency/
"Phorm seeks a digital agency
by Andrew McCormick Media Week 01-Jul-08
"..
The ad-targeting firm is now seeking an agency, initially working on a project basis, to promote its consumer-facing initiative Webwise -
...
Hugo Drayton, UK chief executive of Phorm, said....
"We've talked to a few hand- selected people," said Drayton. "We're not in a pitch situation, but we are sounding out a few agencies. We're thinking about how OIX and Webwise will develop after going live and about what marketing and promotion we can do."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've started a fun thread on thesun.co.uk forums:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/...46~-80459.page

(Also note they don't allow full urls in posts)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Someone needs to explain the technology to Ellie Jane as she clearly doesn't understand the issue if she thinks her anti-virus is going to stop Phorm profiling her.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think she probably does, but doesn't actually care. A view, I have to say, shared by a fair number of people, including some of my family.

There seems to be an air of dumb acceptance about this, and other privacy reducing schemes amongst the public. That is pretty frightening in itself.

Luckily there will always be people, such as yourself, and the other active members here, to take up the issue for them (whether they appreciate it or not).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...and it immediately attracted the same tired old Phorm spin merchants - "Only people with something to hide etc etc".

The upside is that a couple of people on there changed their position after the facts were explained so I'd call that a success and a very good and productive idea.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is anyone thinking along the same lines as me the more outsiders from BT staff with access to customers profiles, part, partial or all logs isn't this going to far.. More potential leaks of customer data a larger intrusion on the privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

post up the network diagram gif for Ellie Jane ,spell it out " this kit is sitting directly on the other end of YOUR broadband wire, and all your visited websites are tracked i full, were you buy your shoes online, the http pages that are taking your details are being collected, processed ,weather you opt-in to seeing these ad's or not"

all her kids movements online, their buying ringtones and othe goods online are also being stalked whatever they do,werever they go, even the sun editors and reporters that use these ISP's at work or at home will also have all their web traffic no matter how mundane, or exclusive stories and leads they turn up or communicate with are effected.

why are you Ellie Jane, so willing to take the webwise (ex-rootkit supplyer) sites word for it as fact ?, they are trying to sell it to you, and thoughs less tech like you....after all

why would you take the word of the sellers,rather than take the word of the webs techs, and creators, that say it really does break many UK laws and steals web content....

does Ellie Jane not want to hide her kids,and her buying habits from totally unknown people operating these bits of interception kit sat on the other end of HER BB wire for profit,she's really sure they dont employ those bad people she mentions or really,really sure any other type she can imagine for that matter, how strange....

still have nothing to hide Ellie Jane .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget to mention that it is actually a criminal offense in the UK and EU as well.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Watch for a turncoat revelation coming to that forum soon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex,

I would look to get press releases out to - London paper, london lite, metro, daily mail.

They are all distributed across the metropolitan area. As far as I can tell these are the most widely read.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will be sending out a press release to as many news/media companies as I can at the beginning of next week, I will add them to the list.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That report really made me smile :)

I suspect that Phorm have suddenly realised if they finally take the plunge and brave the legal retribution against Phorm's WebWise/illegal interception, the public outcry is going to get a lot worse. I think they may have previously thought; once it's in the system the noise would die down.

We know it wouldn't.

So many straws they seem to clutch. It's the equivalent of Software Engineers silver bullet syndrome. Let's fix and make it work better (or create a better illusion) it by throwing people at it. It doesn't work! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You concentrating in London? Or would you like all the Edinburgh Locals Email addresses?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:D:D:D the Sun....Done

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ha Ha Ha ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I am laughing here too :)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:31 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

You are welcome to email them on my behalf ;)

In fact anyone is welcome to email any press/media companies with news of the event, it will be one less email for me to send :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See what happens when people steal your info call the judge and set the Precedent

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

added a nice comment giving plenty of detail, have a look

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I expect most will ignore it, not care, etc. (especially given the forum in question ;) ), & continue with the usual rubbish of "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about" etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:wavey::spin::LOL:

this cant be OUR
Hamsterwheel
http://images.thesun.co.uk/images/male.jpg



http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/...rrowYellow.gif View Profile

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/.../icon_edit.gif
01/07/2008 21:26:22
Re:Is your Internet Provider spying on you.
A known supplier of rootkits on one side and the best IT academics on the other,If you have little knowledge of the Internet and its working procedures who would you trust get on down and stop Phorm.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/...46~-80459.page

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wrong way - they are no longer available to US citizens / residents.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

matt i am waiting for a reply to my last post to ellie

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reg S CANNOT be sold in the US to US investore. PHRX can be sold to anyone in the world.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to be absolutely correct, phrx can only be sold to US investors and a reg S is needed to allow non US investors to invest, also the reg S does not have any of the legal protections afforded to US investors with phrx shares

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She isn't dumb, notice how you always get manipulated away from the subject you are trying to discuss?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

bt beta forums offline for maint?

or is it to clean and lock threads and start a new one to hide info again

have we been raising to many awkward questions again?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps they've been told to stop leaking info to third parties.

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Forum back on-line.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a "Phorm for Dummies" guide that might help Sun readers:

It should be private but who could be watching your kids when they are using a computer online?

You may think you have privacy but who is logging the details of every website you may visit?

Who would be able to access your personal information, check your online accounts, and read your emails?

Does this sound like a good idea to you?

PHORM. Stick it where The Sun don’t shine.

I hope the subliminal message isn't too easy for them to spot :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Custom T-Shirt ordered from Spreadshirt.net (emblazoned with a STOP PHORM front and back, Dephormation logo on front, and sleeve decals per my avatar).

And the rail tickets arrived today, if anyone's on the same trains say hello;

15 July - 19.43 Bath Spa - London Paddington (21:15)
16 July - 20.54 London Paddington - Bath Spa (22:12)

Very much looking forward to meeting you all. Its going to be fun. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thread seems to have survived intact. Shock revelation -
BT make truthful announcement. Maintenance really WAS just maintenance. Quick - tell the Register - honest guy breaks into BT and starts posting maintenance announcements!

Well - it's not MY fault I don't trust them any more!!! I'm emotionally damaged by being a BT customer. My trust levels have plummetted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

bt forum back up, not locked and no content seems to be missing, they may actually have been telling the truth about maint, (SHOCK HORROR BT TOLD TRUTH, come on BT now be truthful about weblies and phorm and research and legal advice)

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Time to check your cookies for cookie fiddling perhaps Rob?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

WOT NO ANORAKS!
How about a box of rich tea to throw at the BT share holders ,or would this be deemed illegal cookie distribution:D:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Much as it pains me to admit it - no - the cookie handling seems to have survived the "maintenance" without becoming leaky. Mind you the session cookie for the forum has almost two lines of encrypted content. Maybe it contains their dossier on me as a troublesome customer?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

www.customanorak.com seems to be down again.

The web master tells me he is going out of business after a scamming ISP stole all his web content, targeted his customers, and used the profiles to advertise t-shirt printing.

Who'd do something that despicable?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

probably your UID encrypted rob so you don't know you are being phormed, ultimate test of the system to see if YOU notice it!!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This received today from BT.

I'm pondering my response

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The shareholding (body count) majority if carefully informed (i.e. not misinPhormed) could be on our side . After all, if and when Phorm hits the rocks after the legal system rule against them, it probably would not be a good time for BT shares.

Theoretically those longer term shareholders who are not aware of what's currently going on (and there must be quite a few) could take an active interest in any developments, if properly put to them, that could affect their investment.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps it's time to mirror the thread?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As someone has mentioned in another post previously. It is not the website owners job to make the Phorm/BT/Webwise system legal. The onus is on BT.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>Over and above this, we are also taking reasonable steps to exclude specific websites from profiling upon specific request from the website owner. As per my previous email, if you provide me with the domain name for your website (and confirmation of ownership) then we will ensure that it is excluded from profiling within Webwise. I can assure you that we have taken advice and believe our approach is both entirely reasonable and complies with relevant legislation. I am not able to share that advice with you in detail and, and as noted in my previous email, I am not able to provide you with BT's IP address ranges.

Once/if Webwise spyware is ever implemented, requests for web pages from BT 'customers' will come from the Phorm proxy. This will reveal the IP range of the proxy machines making the requests. We should then be able to block BT IP ranges.

---------- Post added at 00:26 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

Speaking of which, is there any other way we could get this information? (IP range assignment)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"we can rely upon website owners' implied consent where websites have not taken steps to make their sites inaccessible generally"

you really,really have to include something like "if you rely on that defence with all websites having auto (C) not to mention explicit, 'not for commercial use' and 'interception by Phorm/webwise strictly forbidden' type notices, will get you upto 10 years in prison plus fines per offence committed... ;)

we have taken advice about bringing court cases against commercial piracy for profit infringers and believe our approach is both entirely reasonable and complies with relevant legislation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if any US website owners have written to BT HQ in the US over similar issues e.g. Interception and copyright, under US law? Especially given the attitude in Congress. UK users will visit their sites.

BT are trying to force the issue as an opt-out. The ICO should act. So should Google.

Regarding IP ranges, I think some work was done on this on BadPhorm.

EDIT : Found it.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?4326

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't login on the beta forums says use my BT details which i do but it still will not allow me in I reset password and still fails I can login and check my bill but cannot login on the forums..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have asked both ICO and HO for their opinion on this as I got tired of reading the same response from BT. Unfortunately, if the ICO go by their standard response time of 28 days, I won't have an acknowledgment of my question until after the AGM.

I see no point in complying with a request for PI on what domains and URLs are under my control when I have no idea who the data controller is nor confirmation that the data will be destroyed after the trial - the final system has to be opt-in and they do not need this data for that. Even less as some domains or portions of domains are part of the 'invisible web' and I have no intention of making that public.

As BT are refusing to confirm the IP address ranges during the trial, the only option open to me is to block all BT IP addresses and offer them only a page explaining why they are not able to access the site.

My hope is that a court order will require BT to reveal the IP addresses of the 2006 and 2007 trials so that all webmasters can go through their logs and put in claims for Copyright and RIPA infringement during those trials too.

Maybe the ICO or HO will make the request to BT so that they can prove that they complied with the legal requirement to request permission before intercepting the traffic which is not part of the ad delivery network.

That's a thought, refer BT to the HO opinion and point out that only opted in customers and sites delivering ads can be assumed to have agreed to the interception:
"17. The provision of a targeted online advertising service, contracted by an ISP as part of the service to the ISP's users, can probably be regarded as being carried out "on behalf of" the ISP for the purpose of section 3(3)(a)."

The ISP has no contract with my sites to provide targeted advertising and is, therefore, not doing anything 'on behalf of' the ISP for any section under RIPA. Any interception is, therefore, protected by RIPA and is a criminal act.

---------- Post added at 01:31 ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 ----------

I think that the point he is trying to make is that Webwise will also warn you before you visit a phishing site, as long as it uses a valid http URL.

Sorry HW, I have a honeypot for phishing emails and I rarely see an http URL - they are ALL https.

This is the real description of the phishing protection offered:

Sorry Webwise users, Webwise is unable to warn you about 99.9% of phishing urls included in emails as they point to https URLs which we do not intercept. The few http URLs are pointing to invalid subdomains of sites which are not connected to phishing, [as they are invalid, Webwise will also not have them on the warning list] and the Webwise system is unable to detect the XSS script included in the URL.

Isn't it sad to see technical ignorance being taken advantage of?

Webwise is dangerous for the ignorant. It offers no protection and gives a false sense of security.

[sorry to drag up a thread that had started to go quiet - I did not notice anyone else make this point about the primary weakness of the 'protection' offered.]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its always good to bring up and re-focus the lense now and then Madslug, and you make a very good point not considered here before about the https phishing URLs, well done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Again they just don't seem to get it.

If I visit an AIDS clinic it is a private matter. The clinic may be in the phone book, have an open door policy and it may well advertise it's services in a host of other ways. Once I interact with the clinic in any way both ends of the interaction become private and confidential. The fact that everyone knows where it is and what it does is completely irrelevant to the issue of confidentiality.

Why do they believe issues of confidentiality are any different because it is a website?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex do you have a standard press release that I can send to the local media?

[edit]

Just want to do my bit! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think that they are confused by and frightened of the technology involved. Worse still they are afraid to admit their lack of understanding and are trying to be seen as forward thinking in order to avoid being accused of holding the advance of technology back.

They are incapable of discussing the technology and so they nod their heads and stroke their chins whilst being terrified of putting up the hand and asking the simple questions like "why?".

They have completely missed the single most basic point of the whole debate. Why should any delivery company be allowed to open and read the content of any communication regardless of the nature of that content or the method of delivery?

Once you remove the technological aspects of the internet it all boils down to system for delivering that is no different in any aspect from that undertaken by the Royal Mail. There is no difference in value between the content of a website and the content of my subscribed magazines. Both are delivered to my home at my request and I do not expect the Royal Mail to open the packet and read the magazine before they deliver it. In fact, if they did so they would be breaking the law.

The subject or content of the magazine is irrelevent and it would not be a defence for the Royal Mail to claim that the magazine didn't contain any personal details that identify me nor would it be a defence if the magazine was "free" copy or was otherwise available in the public domain.

When I read the information on a website I send a request to the website and the website agrees to send me the information. They are fulfilling an order and the ISPs only involvment is in their contractual obligation to deliver that order.

Take the technology smoke-screen away and even an MP should be able to see why this form of spying must not be allowed in a civilised country without the specific intervention of court and only then with the the most compelling reason to justify such action.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Peter, that was a very comprehensive post I enjoyed reading it and you hit the nail right on the head.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you.

If you'll forgive me for quoting from a Star Trek film...

"Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we CAN do a thing doesn't mean that we MUST do that thing"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The petition is up to 15,086 Signatures Total on 02/07/2008 :angel:

---------- Post added at 06:20 ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 ----------

No comments on #10691 :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh dear.

I'll file that in my copyright evidence folder.

You see, you're required to obtain a copyright licence IN ADVANCE before you copy, adapt, and sell a literary work. Copyright exists by default, unless you have the express consent of the owner of the literary work, you must therefore assume it is copyright. And the copyright in literary work lasts 70 years from the authors death if I recall correctly, 50 years if its a computer generated work.

So sadly for BT, they can't rely on a 'there was nothing to stop me' defence.

Copyright owners are not obliged to notify all ISPs in the world that they don't want their work copied, nor are they obliged to block legitimate end users from accessing their content using IP ranges, nor are they required to create a robots.txt that somehow permits* Phorm. ISPs are obliged to obtain a copyright licence in advance.

But quite apart from that, mass surveillance should never happen. The right to privacy, security, and integrity of communication must never be compromised by communication service providers. That's what they are paid for, its what a democracy requires, and you can't run an economy without it.

*Bearing in mind, robots.txt is EXCLUSIVE (disallow) not INCLUSIVE (allow). See parasitestxt.org for a comparable industry standard for INCLUSIVE robot control.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the internet no one should hear your stream.

That came to me on the bus into work just now.

EDIT: he made me do it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm: The 666th sense...
"I see stream, people!"


I fear the thread digressing again :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If anyone fancies looking the part for the protest they can get T-Shirts here:

http://nodpi.spreadshirt.net/en/GB/Shop

I just got one myself so people will be able to identify me on the day.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what no guy forks masks so they can`t phomally id you all and serve you with ad,s:P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehehehe

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was looking over the last few pages of the thread this morning and was going to make the same point but you beat me to it. :tu:

This is a very good argument against the only "benefit" webwise offers.

> As an average web user why should I want webwise?

> Because it protects you from phising attacks for free

> Only the ones that don't use SSL - which is a diminishing percentage. The freely available browser based solutions that are enabled by default can stop every phishing attempt that webwise can and many more.

That's very difficult to argue against. The only thing missing is some hard facts on how common https versus http phishing urls are. I've had a look but so far only found anecdotal evidence from several years ago.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All

Just put up a new version of my Kent Down The Pan, this one is an Anti-Phorm Video, the text on You Tube is this: This is an Anti-Phorm Video, to find out about Phorm and the Anti-Phorm campaign go to: www.nodpi.org or www.badPhorm.co.uk

The new video is Here enjoy. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

'Speechless' is the word you are looking for.
Most call centre staff are only paid by success and probably you were not the first to mention webwise that day. Maybe there is a big sign saying 'don't talk about webwise'.

Almost as good as the call I had from whichever call centre was promoting BT broadband - back in the days when the discount was about £10 per month. Poor telesales had no idea what Webwise was and assured me that Webwise was not part of the features and that if Webwise was put on the system I could cancel any time I wanted to. If only I had had a tape recorder.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Skype + Pamela :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do have a tape recorder I can bug my home Phone, but not my Mobil what thay Phoned me on! Dddddddddddddddddddddrat :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well then, I believe that given that the various music and movie publishing companies haven't taken sufficient steps to make their works un-copyable, so I shall assume that consent is implied and not feel guilty when I download 50gb of music later.

</sarcasm>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT WEBWISE

Don't become a victim of

DATA RAPE!



:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon,

I wonder if we used a real world example to highlight why they cannot assume implied consent? For example autosport.com run a lot of normal news items which are readable by the public however you have to pay a subscription to read their more involved articles. The following is a link on autosports front page but when you follow it you are prompted to log in to read the entire article.

http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1623

Google will not be allowed to view the content of these subscription articles as they have taken sufficient steps to prevent the article being generally available to the public. You have to log in with your account to view the article and notice that the authentication is not using the HTTP authentication that phorm say they will ignore.

Webwise/Phorm will still profile the content even when you QUITE CLEARLY cannot assume "implied consent".

This is just one example, how many other websites use how many different methods to protect their content? Some will use cookies to authenticate their users (like this forum) some will use server side sessions instead of cookies (this would be my personal choice), some may even use something as primitive as including something in the html code to identify the current user.

The point is that there is no standard way to protect content, it is impossible for them to say that they will recognise every single way people have protected their web pages and therefore cannot assume that they have implied consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone know when Steve Gibson`s podcast on phorm will be available.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well - set up a phishing trap and follow up all the phishing emails you get. Shouldn't take too long. I have a heavily spammed account I can check every now and again for my HBOS/A&L/Lloyds/Nationwide phishing emails.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is a very good point and one I had not thought of. Phishing sites using SSL will not be detected by webwise. That is one HUGE hole in their most argued point about protecting users against phishing attacks.

Well spotted!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

has the PIA gone MIA ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It was recorded yesterday and will be available on Thursday and I thoroughly enjoyed it, first half had me laughing out loud (great for old school geeks) and the second half was entirely on Phorm and he covered pretty much all of the technical points.

Shame you guys don't get to listen to it til Thursday :PP:

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 11:28 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

As I said last week Simon Davies is out of the country for the next couple of weeks, so it will be some time now before it raises it's head.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alex, should be a good listen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From: Steve Gibson <news07_@_grc.com>
Newsgroups: grc.securitynow

High Quality - 51,224,683 bytes
http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-151-.mp3

Low Quality - 12,824,812 bytes
http://media.grc.com/sn/sn-151-lq.mp3

--
Available now on his own servers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to go slightly OT for a moment. Saw this on the BBC website:

Virgin rapped on broadband speeds

Just love this bit:
Talk about pot... kettle... black!

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anybody actually asked Phorm if their anti-phishing protection only does http:// ? I know they don't profile https:// but there is nothing to say that the anti-phishing, largely done on urls, does not. We shouldn't jump to conclusions.

But I would still have far more confidence in my browser in-built anti-phishing than Phorm's variant. They refuse to say which external databases they are using, most others are quite happy to state this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm certain that Webwise will warn of both http and https phishing sites. I have asked them to confirm this though.
Remember Phorm are a sponsoring member of the AWG http://www.antiphishing.org/sponsors.html and would not be daft enough to offer something that did not cope with a large proportion of phishing attacks.

Also remember that their anti-phishing will not need you to download updates of known sites like most of the norton's etc do, so will be much more up-to-date. So a much better, and free offering than that currently available.
You see - Phorm is simply the best :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As far as I am aware it won't be possible to check https url's for phisihing attacks. The first step in the process before any URL is sent is to establish the secure connection with the server, only then is the request sent at which point it is not possible to read the request (unless they have huge computers which will break all of the encryption). The only way they could check it is to intercept the https request and present an intermediate certificate which would cause alerts in your browser indicating a "man in the middle attack".

The only information they can glean is the ip address however to black list an ip address could black list a large number of other sites that would be running on the same server.

---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

Antivirus software and browsers (that already provide this protection and CAN check https url's) automatically download the latest phising site lists without any intervention from the user.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

McAfee Site Advisor doesn't download a list at all; it submits the url once entered and compares it with a central database - which also means it is more up to date than a copy kept on a client machine so Webwise doesn't have any advantage over this free product either. Furthermore it scores domains on features other than just phishing - it will flag up sites that have suspicious downloads on offer (trojans and the like), sites that use browser exploits, will flag up spammy domains, or will even flag up domains for being associated with other flagged parts of the web. Those are features WebWise does not boast, despite being able to "see all of the internet".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=HamsterWheel;34589883]I'm certain that Webwise will warn of both http and https phishing sites. I have asked them to confirm this though.
Remember Phorm are a sponsoring member of the AWG http://www.antiphishing.org/sponsors.html and would not be daft enough to offer something that did not cope with a large proportion of phishing attacks.

Dave Jevans, Chairman of the APWG, sent me an email saying this about Phorm: 'I don't like the categorization that its an "anti phishing solution".'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just did a quick search for some information to confirm the SSL connection process and found this.

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infoce...5/s5sslsf.html

Notice that at step 6 where the data exchange occurs (the sending and receiving of requests and data) that the encrypted tunnel is already established.