Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry chaps... I don't want to be a killjoy , but the thread is starting to degenerate again.

Remember, the likes of Baroness Sue Miller has posted here and she, as well as other MP's, MEP's, Lords, who knows? may well be reading.

Just a thought. :erm:

The faultfinder will find faults, even in paradise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Spoil Sport. :p:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's me out then - I've been soaking in gin again watching the Nelson Mandela birthday bash n Glastonbury...

Night All

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just printed off the entire set of FoI information and assembled it in chronological order.
There is a page titled EU feedback on Phorm's technologies that states that Phorm initiated discussions on internet privacy with a range of EU audiences. The names in [ ] were blanked out and have been googled.

European Commission.
The Head of the Data Protection Unit [Philippe Renaudière] considered that OIX and Webwise were clearly Privacy Enhancing technologies, which were very much in line with what the Commission is seeking to achieve in terms of internet privacy. He invited Phorm to cooperate with the Commission to enhance privacy standards.

European Parliament
Phorm has met the Raporteur on the revisions to the E-Privacy Directive in the Internal Market and Consumer Protection Committee, [?] (Conservative, UK), and [?] (Liberal, Germany), draftsman on privacy aspects in the Civil Liberties, Justice And Home Affairs Committee, on several occasions. [?] and [?] have been particularly interested to learn how Phorm's technologies offer solutions to MEP concerns regarding the storage of personal data. They invited [K*nt ?] to participate in an informal lunch discussion earlier this week to explain that the storage of browsing history is not necessary for targeted advertising, nor the use of IP addresses.

God help us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Much the same Paul!

Goodnight and thanks to all.

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How do you know that Sue Miller wasn't the gal that started the KFO nominations, hmmm?

Here is the list so far

#1 Robert (killer) Magabe
#2 George (warmonger) Bush
#3 Gordon (Orwell) Brown
#4 Phorm

Well done Baroness! Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen your votes count, just ask #13 Kent Ertugrul what a KFO gong really means, he's more unpopular than Tory Blair, Chavs and STDs. :D

And don't forget to tell your friends and family they can vote again tomorrow, and every 24hrs. Kent Ertugrul and Phorm - the peoples choice for a good kicking. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After following this forum silently for some time I thought it best to add my voice and make a little more noise.

--------

I have just been reading Phorm's answer to PECR and 'valid informed consent'.
"Since Phorm technology does not use IP addresses to target advertising there is a strong argument that Section 7 of PECR does not apply to our service."

Everything else on that page only mentions the means of delivering the ads. This is all Phorm is, the deliverer of advertising. Nothing more. Dealing with anonymous information.

It is the ISPs who need to get the consent of their users, not Phorm. The inference is that all the ISPs are doing is obtaining their customers consent to having the adverts delivered to them, which includes being given a UID (they get that when they opt-in) and allowing the UID to be read by a javascript which is hosted on the web page delivering the ads.

What fools we have been to think that there could be anything else involved.
All that work done by Richard Clayton, none of his comments apply to the display of adverting, so nothing to do with this discussion.

I am reminded of what a member of the badphorm forum mentioned to me way back at the beginning - not a tech bod:
The whole Phorm / Webwise / OIX system is about stealing data - a burglary is taking place of personal data (profile) and web copyright (content). The content is used to help build the profile which is then 'sold' to a 3rd party without any payment to either of the parties who helped to create the resulting data - OIX uses both the profile and the content.
The defence comes along and says: the defendant is innocent of arson. Every question asked is answered with reference to the arson and everything looks above board because no one can see any evidence of anything that could result in a fire.

Even the Home Office has been brought in to provide answers that cover the fire.
Each question the ICO has asked has been answered with reference to the fire.

The more answers are given, the more everyone is told that the defendant is innocent of arson and everyone begins to agree that there is no fire.

Now, will someone please start giving answers about the theft. This is about burglary and not arson. There is no arson.

Does anyone know how to approach the Home Office and ask them to look into the case of burglary.

I have already asked the ICO to look into PECR with reference to the website - no request/method received from ISPs for the site to give informed consent to opt-in (only opt-out offered) to having its content copied and trial is now imminent. Perhaps a few more web site owners can ask the same question.

I have also complained to the HO that the opinion relating to implied consent for interception to enable the delivery of targeted adverts has been interpreted as there being implied consent from ALL websites, even those not involved in the delivery of adverts and that the intercepted data of all websites is being put to commercial use (contrary to copyright) by the ISPs who are using the data to create the user's profile.

Let us stop wasting time on the non-existent fire and get back to the very real theft: theft of privacy, theft of personal security, theft of intellectual property, theft of commercially sensitive data, theft of the freedoms offered by the internet, theft of internet neutrality.

Since the beginning, every question about the theft that has been put to BT and Phorm has had a response that there is no fire.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was under the impression that it was the ISP that everyone was after as regards the informed explicit consent. After all, if the ISP drops webspies because it cannot get the consent then Phorm can pack up and go home.

Section 7 and 8 of PECR does apply in regards informed consent, presumably to the ISP

Section 3 RIPA applies in regard informed consent again presumably to the ISP.

That particular document mentions:- Since Phorm technology does not use IP addresses to target advertising there is a strong argument that section 7 of PECR does not apply.

PECR defines "traffic data" to mean any data processed for the purpose of the conveyance of a communication on an electronic communications network or for the billing in respect of that communication and includes data relating to the routing, duration or time of a communication;

It's not just about IP addresses!

The Home office document, 'targeted Online Advertising' dated january 2008, states that consent under RIPA for the ISP customer can be obtained via suitable T&C's I would suggest that is misleading and would be unlawful under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations

To be fair, Rrichard Clayton did a technical analysis. It was Nicholas Bohm that did the legal analysis and that analysis mentions that it was the Information Commissioner who drew attention to the provisions of PECR.

It's getting late and I can't think straight.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok, after 2 hours detailed law research, I've looked harder at the rules. I can't see anything to indicate the film is covered by UK or US copyrights.
I agree. I'll upload it. (There's no sound track, it was silent film!).
You have to be careful (I am very careful). There is copyright in the musical arrangement and copyright in the performance.
Copyright in the musical arrangement may have lapsed, but Kevin MacLeods performance of that music is still covered by a copyright. Fortuneatly the terms and conditions of his copyright make it possible for me to use the music without payment of royalties.

I take copyright very seriously, can you tell? :)

---------- Post added at 07:17 ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 ----------

Incidentally, after spending 2 hours hand wringing trying to establish whether a 103 year old film in which all the performers are certainly stone cold dead decades ago, where the film was lodged as a paper series of photographs, and after reviewing 100+ years of USA, UK and EU copyright legislation to make certain there was no violation of copyright for non-commercial use...

... you would have to be smoking crack to believe it is legally possible to copy web pages, in effect literary works which are mostly less than 1 year old.

---------- Post added at 07:41 ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 ----------

Enjoy. Click on the picture below.


https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/06/8.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8bUa_wooeA

Credits to the creative genius of Thomas Alva Edison, and Kevin MacLeod of Incompetech.

---------- Post added at 07:50 ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 ----------

Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress.
Thomas A. Edison

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well that was werth the wate to see. What Film editor did you use? Is it Free?

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------

Yes I can

Hmmm I wonder is that watt Kent Ertugrul is smoking. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, I used Windows Movie Maker, which is free with XP (I've got a distant recollection there are two versions, the second version is much more stable than the first, and it was an optional upgrade you can download from Windows Update). Titles, sound tracks, & video effects are very easy to add.

Kevin MacLeod kindly pointed out that the credits need to mention Tchaikovski. Updated version here with correct credits.

Phorm/BT please note, for avoidance of doubt, I have made a voluntary donation for use of the music. In effect, paying a consenting copyright owner for use of his creative works. You might like to think very hard about consent and payment too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I tip my cap.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

their website tracker tools are interesting to
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?action=tools

kents No is 45
phorm No is 132
Bt No is 44

do you have to be registered before your comments show up there?, i cant seem to see any of my or anyones comments! in the "Reasons/Comments" sections.

i clicked add reason/comment, entered my reasons and then clicked the nominate in the right order but nothing appearing... a Bug perhaps, or is it visable to registered users there?

BTW kents just gone up from 6 to 5 in the rankings, the stand alone tool makes a rattle noise when something changes, try it
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?action=tools#tracker

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just visited the site think you need a new thread for this so not to dilute the compaign too much making it harder to find the information.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

done, see here http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34586408


made it a general longer term OT BR type related posts thread.

so anything that looks like it might become a larger subject can be moved there if we remember the URL after a few pages have passed by... :erm:

just managed to put the OT BR thread URl in my sig for now to help others remember to keep it visable and used.

one off OT BR posts can stay here,but moved there if it gets lots of OT replys...and linked back here in a few lines of direct URL and comment hint.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agree, Good Idea.
Well done popper.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Florence,

I have an idea for you and other posters. I see CF forum as a rolling Phorm dialog and BadPhorm as a indexed hierarchy with commentry, why don't you start a thread(s) under the "Phorm Talk" section with links to the CF forum posts. You can categorise and break the posts into the appropriate groups and make your own makeshift index to the useful information.

BadPhorm.co.uk supports editing so you can start a page and re-edit the page(s) as the information changes. If lots of people start pooling their efforts it would soon become a great information repository index.

If you want to make it into a more formal database you can develop your own XML structures and cut-n-paste them as plain text into the page(s)

Hope that helps.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Armed with the initial FOI request scans by Dephormation and when we have fully consumed the interesting information contained within, we should consolidate ideas for our next best move or plan of attack so to speak.

We should attempt to ensure that further requests are precisely worded to fill any missing gaps that have come to light after the last disclosures. The more loose ends we can tie up the better we can fight this illegal WebWise interception.

It is fairly obvious the Phorm and Kent are doing the rounds, so to speak, with the influential community and it is up to us to ensure that our counter claims are well targeted.

Knowledge is power as Kent would like to think and although we are doing a great job I still think we are playing catch up. There is probably about 98% of the population still to educate. Unless Phorm and BT get hit by one of the Big Boys (please, please) who object to Phorm illegaly creaming off their own legal cake we must ensure we do not sit back and pat ourselves on the back just yet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as you know i want this consumer protest video to grow and easy for any of us to use so i thought id put this subject up on the OT BR thread.

creative commons is the thing.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...ll-things.html

did you, as in Everyone thinking of taking 5 minutes to make a video with your mobile phone, link your videos into the special Phorm NoDPI section too?
https://nodpi.org/2008/06/02/youtube...etition-group/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

having been away from this thread for a bit and having attempted to glance through the ridiculous amount of posts in one thread I wonder if someone can summarise
what is happening and are there any recent developments?

Yerba Mansa
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

*** Spammer Reported ***

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I really like that "There is no arson" analogy.

I think, when discussing ad delivery in targetted advertising, regulatory bodies assume that explicit informed consent would have already been given by the customer (victim) as a basic requirement of law.

It's this legal requirement which is holding up further BT trials, as technically, as I understand it, they will be struggling to comply with it.


:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OT BR thread #2 IAB Membership Extended Way Beyond Publishers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Check out http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...ad-page-2.html

icsys has been kindly doing a summary of important developments. I think it is still a work in progress. (never ending ) ;) It should bring you up to mid this month, where you can catch up by a bit of homework in this thread. Worth doing!

Phorm investor gives up!
 

A long term Phorm investor and iii forum supporter of Phorm has decided to throw the towel in.


As you can see even the pro-Phorm supporters think HamsterWheel is the ADVFN village idiot.

Btw, A new KFO entry has been added for HamsterWheel. It wasn't me who originally nominated him, and I never asked anyone to nominate him. If I was going to nominate someone like Hamsterwheel I would have made a generic nomination "Phorm Shills & Trolls" and mentioned Hamsterwheel as the prime candidate in the KFO Profile. However despite the fact I never nominated him I have now added my KFO vote and I'm sure other people here would like the opportunity to vent a bit of frustration in the form of a vote :)

The nID is 408




Note: Phorm needs a few more votes to clinch the #3 spot from Gordon Brown

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great work by icsys .. obviously too much spare time!!

Just had a thought about this .. it might be a good plan if the mods moved these summaries into kursk's sticky right at the top of the forum .. easily found then!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HW KFO Guilty

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL ;)

Any clues on the KFO Profile description it hasn't been released yet?

Btw I'm in talks with someone (we know) about a FF plugin KFO auto-voter :D




update: Just a few more votes and HM gets onto the official Top 100 KFO list !ROFL!
h~~p://www.kindlyf~~~koff.co.uk/?action=view_nominee&nID=408

Phorm is officially #3 (c'mon folks you know it deserves #1 :) )


Well done that last HM voter give yourself a pat on the back, it's official he's in the 100 list!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget to 'Rate your ISP' at thinkbroadband:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/rate.html

You might want to share your views on what you think about BT. ;)

You have to register, unfortunately.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey folks, sick as a dog at the moment will be back soon as I have recovered. Keep the pressure on.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I rated my BT telephone service yesterday when a sales rep phoned up to offer me a great deal. I politely said "no thanks, not interested" before he got his sale pitch upto speed. He was taken aback... he started on his second wind,
"free evening and weekend calls"... !splutter!! splutter!#

"Oi!, I said NO!"... pregnant pause, building up to punch line.

"I'm cancelling my line... and going with another LLU provider, one that doesn't wiretap its customers!"

Hangs up!

Starts smiling to self... as I imagine BT's business starting to take a nose dive when more and more customers pull the BT plug and sign up with other telephone line operators.

Isn't local loop unbundling great!?

Only £2 to transfer your line to another operator!

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope you have not been bumping any Russian speaking gentlemen in London coffee bars. (polonium-210) ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just received a response from my MP regarding Phorm. My enquiry was forwarded to BERR and the response received was from Shriti Vadera of BERR.

The letter explained that ISP's have announced plans to track internet activity using phorm's Webwise and OIX products. It continued to explain that phorm replaces ads with ones relevant to the customer's web browsing meaning less irrelevant ads. (Standard info - nothing new).

She went on to say that she was aware that some ISP customers have voiced concerns about disclosure to third parties about their web browsing and said she understood those concerns. She also stated that the Government is committed to ensuring that peoples privacy is fully protected and that we have legislation in place for this purpose and consequently the ICO has been looking at the proposals to ensure that any use of phorm is compatible with the relevant privacy legislation. With the letter was a printed copy of the ICO view from the ICO website.

She went on to say that the Home Office had advised Phorm on how the use of phorm might be affected by RIPA. She also stated that both the ICO and herself had discussed details of the upcoming trial with BT and seems satisfied that BT's confirmation that customers' web browsing will only be monitored and ads delivered if they opt-in to the trial.


In light of information that is appearing in the online press and the FoI documents, I wonder if she really does understand the concerns and if this Government really is committed to protecting privacy.

With reference to Phorm's document titled 'Phorm informed consent update', a sentence in the document reads: 'Since Phorm technology does not use IP addresses to target advertising there is a strong argument that section 7 of PECR does not apply'.

It is easy now to see why Phorm continually state that the Home Office and ICO are comfortable with webwise, they are both quoting different sets of legislation. A bit like madslug's arson versus theft analogy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had broadly the same letter. Shriti Vadera doesn't acknowledge the content creators rights, or the service side consent for interception. Which is surprising for the department for Business Enterprise Regulatory Reform, who you'd expect to comprehend the economic impact of parasites like Phorm on legitimate content creators and eCommerce.

I also had a letter from Patricia Hewitt (BT non exec director and MP) repeating almost verbatim Emma Sanderson's drivvel about extensive legal advice. (I wrote back, telling Ms Hewitt I thought it would be entertaining to read that advice if only BT would publish it, given what I've read of the ICO documentation, and Home Office advice).

Its getting more and more obvious to me with every new revelation the government are desperately trying to white wash this criminal shambles, presumably to protect someone senior in Labour, or a big donor, or some government department from deep embarrassment. The bit I can't work out is why the opposition parties aren't ripping them to shreds over this. Don Foster in particular has been very quiet lately.

July will be a very interesting month I'm sure.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had a virtually identical letter last week from Ms Vadera as have, I believe, a couple of other people on this thread.

I just don't think she gets why people are so angry about this. She seems to have fallen for the standard 'BT/phorm has assured us...' blah blah
I don't normally go for the big conspiracy theory thing but....I'm starting to have second thoughts on this.
Wake up and smell the coffee Ms Vadera..before the brown stuff engages with the rotating windy thingy.

I agree Pete, July promises to be a very interesting month.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On a different note, I've done some number crunching on the BT Transactions in own shares, to see where they might be aiming for on 16 July.

It looks like they might be buying up their own shares, then cancelling them (see 19 June) to make earnings per share look better perhaps? And/or improving their ability to resist a shareholder revolt.

Use the info at your own risk. Buy/sell on the basis of this data and you will get what you deserve in spades. A share tip? Buy SSL certificate authority shares, at your own risk.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/53.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Call me paranoid but maybe they actually want the ability to snoop on peoples internet usage without all that tedious having to push it through parliament and have it splashed all over the papers nonsense. :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's my conspiracy theory...

The Home Office want ISP's to monitor web-traffic 'in the interests of security'. However the ISP's have said they can't or won't do this. "We are mere conduits!"
Phorm says, I can monitor all web traffic and give a cash incentive to the ISP's for the interception of their customers.
Phorm, ISP and HO join forces...
The Home Office gets what they want, the ISP gets a cash boost, Phorm makes a tidy profit.
Everyone is happy... well everyone except Joe Public. (Are you still with us Joe?)

Could this be why the ICO and Home Office are refusing to step on BT's toes?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

#3 well, i am using the OT BR thread at least

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

David Davis is probably still in the gun sights of the press and his convictions are obviously in the right place, I don't suppose any members of this thread live in the Haltemprice and Howden borough? He has already stated he wants to start a wider debate on civil liberties. Maybe a way of getting more headline press?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't worry too much about Shriti Vadera...she's Brown's meat puppet, when he goes, she goes!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think Joe Public will become more and more conscious of his/ her non privacy over the internet and take steps to rectify it using proxies, encryption etc. This will make 'legitimate' government (through court orders) net-snooping far more difficult.
Of course those who may have serious sht to hide are probably using more secure methods anyway.

In the long term, the technology to protect ourselves will become more accessible and easier to use for non-technical users. This universal snooping will definitely NOT be in the security services interest, more time, effort and money required....or have they not thought of that, :dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm expecting a response from the HO soon, which will hopefully put a few significant missing pieces of the jigsaw together.

There are some very serious inconsistencies in the HO account of events, which makes me wonder how they are going to account for their actions in the next batch of FoI data.

Once I've got the HO data, I can do some analysis, take stock, and plan the next move with respect to getting additional information.

At that stage I may in a position to write up everything I know about this scandal as a long article for CF (if they'll take it?). But it depends how open HO choose to be.

In the meantime, in terms of publicity, we must must must keep spreading the word. Friends, flyers, word of mouth, letters.

And most important, make plans to travel to the demo on 16 July 2008 in London (http://www.nodpi.org/). Book the train tickets early, its cheaper. Check Megatrain for bargains.

Info;
http://www.nodpi.org/events/
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/

Easy letter writing wizard;
http://www.dephormation.org.uk/letters/

https://nodpi.org/images/gallery/bannerani01jo5.gif
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/06/4.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just examined that PCPlus article..no mention of Phorms shady past, and a deprecating remark alluding to "more exitable bloggers", which I will take the editor to task for (I'm a subscriber, and magazine subscriptions generally are falling.)

Interestingly the Star letter on the feedback pages take PCPlus to task for not covering the Phorm scandal..the editor of the news and features page, Alex Cox, responds by pointing to the (incomplete) article in the same issue, and says they like to get comments from all parties involved in an article, and Phorm were; "hard to pin down".

Sound familiar?

He also says that up to date stories can be found on their sister site www.techradar.com.

email addresses to pcplus editors end in @pcplus.co.uk.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At the same time, Phorm are telling ICO and MPs that they are engaging with the technical community. :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the weaknesses and lack of detail in that article, calling PC plus the "technical community" may be inaccurate.

I hope a few real technical people on here will enlighten them as to the error of their ways.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can somebody please confirm that the following is correct (want to try a different tack with my MP)


BT (all ISP's) use a piece of hardware for Deep Packet Inspection which legally can only be used for maintaining an Internet Service (Traffic Shaping during peak / off peak times etc). It specifically by law cannot be used for commercial or advertising purposes.
This Deep Packet Inspection hardware can and does record details of every website you visit including times and dates, the law requires that this information is retained by BT for 12 months.
The only way this personal data can be lawfully accessed by any government agency is via a warrant issued by a court, it cannot be accessed under laws such as RIPA, it can only be legally accessed with a warrant.

Enter Phorm.
They add there own Deep Packet Inspection hardware which is identical to BT's with the exception that the personal data it collects isn't subject to the stringent laws restricting its use to non-commercial or advertising purposes nor who will have access to it. A government agency would not require a warrant to access any of the personal data running through this second Deep Packet Inspection hardware.
A computer program written by Phorm "strips personally identifiable material" from the data. This is what they present to every regulatory body to justify that their system complies with privacy laws.
So privacy is only guaranteed by Phorm's software program and as part of their contract with BT Phorm have complete control over the updating and servicing of their software.

The reality is our privacy is in the hands of a company who has a long history (under different names) of writing parasitic software including a rootkit virus, in each case to gain access to personal data.


Thanks


:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The rootkit in question was called apropos... a simple Google will reveal all about it, it is well known and hated.

THIS may be useful as a reference about certain peoples' criminal past.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorms system is different. It not only monitors your traffic, it actively interferes with it, creating fake cookies and forcing unexpected redirects to imposter web sites. Any pages which are returned may have advertising inserted (if they are OIX partners).
In other words the privacy, security, and integrity of your communication with your desired web site is compromised (and vice versa).
Phorm have not published the algorithm or method they use. Indeed there was no reference to the anonymisation process AT ALL in the leaked 2006 report.
They have made oblique statements which claim names, and identifiers will be filtered out, but this is obviously unlikely to be successful unless you know the names of everyone on the planet, your filter is multilingual, and you know the format of all identifiers in use on the planet.
Look at this page, put yourself in Phorm's shoes, and ask yourself how you will remove all identifiers from this page? roadrunner69, dephormation, NTLvictim... are those names? Are they personal identifiers?
Phorm claim they will not process form data, but that assumes the form data is a post request, and seems not to include search engine forms. In other words, they will process form data if it is commercially attractive for them to do so.
Clearly, after a moments thought you'll agree, its complete nonsense to claim they can fully anonymise data.
Yet ICO did not ask BT how this algorithm worked, nor inspect its operation.
Your only assurance is that Phorm claim they will not profile you while you retain their opt out cookie. This assurance is given to you by a firm that F-Secure labelled creators of "one of the most widespread malicious rootkits of 2005", and who co-operated with BT running two trials of their spyware in 2006/7, without advising their customers, ICO or (supposedly) the Home Office.
Parasitic both in the sense of taking your personal information and selling it, and taking the one thing that makes the net the valuable resource it is (content and services data), and abusing that too.

There's only one conclusion. Phorm must be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, I wonder if Dephormation (Pete) could use his video editing skills to "Phorm" this YouTube video into something to suit our cause?

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...y_to_plan.html

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did have an idea of getting the video's Kent and his team posted to youtube then putting subtitles into English at the bottom as his advertising spyware magnate speak isn't anything like real English.

for example.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=QQULhWLWucM

"as far as the consumer proposition is concerned Webwise is a way of spying on internet users and getting private data about them. Think of it as spyware installed at your isp.."

I've grabbed the video using downloadhelper, but I can't seem to pop it into Movie maker :( I'll keep trying

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a simple upload, a GoogleEarth place mark for sharing around - indicates the venue and date of the protest, gives a very short synopsis of what's going on and links to nodpi.org

I haven't posted it to the google community layer as it can take months before it makes it into the wild.

N.B. - It is just a .kmz google earth place marker file inside the zip, it had to be zipped in order to allow it to be attached to the post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Paul Delaney
Another hard hitting argument for your MP is that Phorm also profiles children's on-line data and the fact that none account owners can opt you out or in, unbeknown to you, is a strong argument. Also stating the fact that Phorm intercepts your data whether you have opted in or have opted out is worrying from a security point of view. Surely the argument is that this should be done as consent at account level and not by cookies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something i just noticed a lot of things advertisers might be interested in could also be personally identifiable information.

Examples
Mercedes (A car but also possibly someones first name)
Carr (possibly being taken for car)
Villa ( is a another good example)


Look through a phone book or surnames and try to decide which ones could also have another meaning to advertiser.

How in these cases will they know the context enough to decide it is personally identifing or not ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In order for it to be 'personally identifying' the information would need to make it possible to directly identify an individual.

As many people in the UK could have the name 'Mercedes' the name on its own would not be classed as personaly identifiable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the point is that your clickstream will be used to associate you with various interest channels. At the moment, phorm argues they are wide.

What happens when they increase the resolution of these channels? Just an incremental step in widening the wedge.

The most obvious is one for your postcode - POSTCODE_AB2_3DE. They don't have to record your postcode, just assign you to the right channel.

The most difficult thing for them is to get this started. Once it's in, give them 5 years and they will be doing whatever they want.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely the very act of stripping personally identifiable material is processing that data as defined in the Data Protection Act 1998.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It sure is digbert it comes right after the first illegal interception screen all illegal in every step of the process they break fundemental rules but fail to even acknowledge it.

Still suprises me how far this thing is still going on tbh.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i answered this in the OT BR thread.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34587095

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let me make this point again: Nobody knows what phorm does, except phorm, and they are not telling. Or at least they are only telling us what they want us to know. BT are culpable, in that they are intercepting, then snooping on our data stream, but they are than handing that data to a company to process with no credible means of verifying what processing is being carried out. We keep hearing from the ICO and the HO, that 'phorm does this, phorm does that' but THEY DON'T BLOODY WELL KNOW what it does. They only know what Ertugrul tells them, and he doesn't exactly have a reputation for being honest and trustworthy does he? Strange that politicians, amongst whom being a congenital liar is almost a career necessity, seem to find it impossible to recognise this trait in others.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a further thought, I've just been to the genesrunited site, my sister has entered a whole family tree, so if I go to those pages I can see all the family members with their dates of birth, place of birth, date of marriage etc. All information that can identify an individual.
Similarly with friendsreunited name, schools attended and dates, all personally identifying an individual.
Many of the MySpace or similar pages contain enough information to identify an individual.
So everytime a BT/Webwise customer accesses those pages, Phorm processes personal information. Why doesn't the ICO understand this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Shocking... They have got their priorites @ss backwards. The government, its departments and the civil service should be there to protect and serve the public not some greedy gannet immoral sneaky company, Phorm!

Btw take a look at KFO :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So sites like genes/friends reunited need to be informed...off you go!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its all about context and volume of data.

A name alone - John Smith - might not identify an individual. With enough context it would certainly identify an individual.

You cannot allow a communication service provider (electronic or otherwise) to inspect all of your private communications and make a judgement for themselves about what is and isn't personal and private information before you've even had the chance to read it yourself.

You just can't do it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its always good to keep the definition of the act in clear sight and in mind....

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998..._en_2#pt1-l1g1
...
“personal data” means data which relate to a living individual who can be identified—
(a)
from those data, or

(b)
from those data and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the data controller,

and includes any expression of opinion about the individual and any indication of the intentions of the data controller or any other person in respect of the individual;

...

and this is helpful to some
http://www.jisclegal.ac.uk/dataprote...#_Toc174939790

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But it could be sufficient if the person has an unusual name. For example, is there more than one Kent Ertugrul?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am hoping in the ICO's case it is pure and simple incompetence. The other reasons I can think of could lead to some very serious accusations.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it is.....

the very fact Phorm or the ISPs NEVER mention or answer the question when ever the word "collecting" or "retrieval" of your datastream, comes up, and always just directly jumps to storeing to try and fudge the unwary interviewer or viewer gives that away.

its a shame the word "derivative" didnt get used in the act directly , as that would have made it cristal clear to anyone remotely thinking about the subject understand it in relation to the copyright laws....

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998..._en_2#pt1-l1g1
“processing”, in relation to information or data, means obtaining, recording or holding the information or data or carrying out any operation or set of operations on the information or data, including—
(a)
organisation, adaptation or alteration of the information or data,

(b)
retrieval, consultation or use of the information or data,

(c)
disclosure of the information or data by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available, or

(d)
alignment, combination, blocking, erasure or destruction of the information or data;

“relevant filing system” means any set of information relating to individuals to the extent that, although the information is not processed by means of equipment operating automatically in response to instructions given for that purpose, the set is structured, either by reference to individuals or by reference to criteria relating to individuals, in such a way that specific information relating to a particular individual is readily accessible.
...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just did a quick word frequency test with TextSTAT, a simple word analysis program (free) on a Cable-Forum page from this afternoon.

Discarded any term that occurs less than 5 times ((I seem to remember phorm stating they do this)
Discarded the chaff (the, at, is etc)
Now it starts getting harder to narrow down.
Discarded generic words that would probably not be relevent (service, data, posted etc)

And i'm left with:

Phorm
Media
Dephormation
NTLVictim
Webwise
BT
roadrunner69
Paul
Delaney
Cable
software
VM
ISP
ICO
government
warescouse
Sky
video
davethejag
Joe
Phone
Google

Even from this, very limited test, and disregarding the url its possible to identify several people (at least by user name (Paul Delaney?), who's political views (at least with regard to privacy matters) are known.
Once the inevitable function creep comes who knows where it will lead.
I'll try the same thing on a more personal site when I get time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm also Staribar, Darkskai, Kyle Reese, Jay808, The2ndLoser, 2ndLoser and T2L

None of those are my real name either

:D


EDIT: I even use an alias on Facebook for Christs Sake!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the little sideline weekend fun from KFO looks fun today, currently Phorm is ranked No.1 ;) Kent went from 5 to 4 back down to 5, and now stands at No.4 again for an hour or so, BT is trailing at No.13 atm but is the largest climber since yesturday.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You and I both, but many people I know use the same or similar across all their registered sites. :dozey: 's

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm voting on KFO but why am I not seeing any comments on the site. I've written a couple and I'm sure many on here will have too. Any ideas or do you have to register for your comment to count and to see others?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Phorm webwise technology assigns each user a unique identifier (UID) Thus phorm processes PII as it falls foul of the following:

Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data.

Article 2 Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:

(a) 'personal data' shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

exactly right. I have an unusual name, and a google of it brings up reference to only one other individual on the entire internet, whose name is similar to mine, but not the same (and no, it's not my username here). So how does being an "anonymous" member of a group of 2 protect my privacy, Phorm??

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With my name any websites i have about me would have them thinking I was on about the town called Florence.. So I presume i wil get adverts related to that, nice one and irrelvant.

---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

I used to have a fake name but due to problems caused by one ex member of this forum and an admin on thinkbroadband I was told I had to change my fake name so I was in a mood and just used my real name...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

KFO Update:

With a sterling effort from everybody 'We' have managed to place Phorm into #1 postion over on KFO, let's hope the message sinks in.

Kent Ertugrul is at #3 just behind Robert Mugabe and ahead of George Bush.

I've setup a thread over on Badphorm as a placeholder reminder for people wanting to keep Phorm and their **** entourage right at the top of the KFO rankings as the most disgusting unpopular pile of crap on the entire Internet.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?7028

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even Phorm refer to it as a user identifier. What could be more personal? Its more personal than your phone number, your IP address, your home address. Its on a par with a social security number.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well the comments are supposed to be verified by a human (allegedly) and so I suspect is suffering from the 'human condition'... Laziness

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------

Phorm's pulling another fast one, their claim that the process is anonymous is a total sham. They are going around conning people like the ICO and Lords/Ladies/MPs with this b~llshit because those power brokers of British governance are technically illiterate. Phorm will use back channels of information along with their sneaky partners to marry up the information from many different sources. That data is being clocked and collated! No doubt about it. The only clever thing is Phorm can look you in the eye and say 'WE' aren't doing it, with this dodgy profiling system we are trying to distract your attention with... (looks away covers mouth with hand,,, and whisper mutters "Are friends are doing the un-anonymising for us *wink*")

I'm sure Richard Clayton could write another PhD on how that information is scattered and then pulled back into a central repository... Phorm is just doing a smoke and mirrors trick... How the ADMIN EDIT - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER can they say READING EVERYTHING IS A PRIVACY ENHANCEMENT???!!! it defies all logic.

C'mon Richard we need a nice research paper from you regarding all this sleight of hand trickery that's really going on.


Note: NebuAd's anonymising personal data has already been busted! Any CompSci student worth their salt knows that a oneway hash on a very small data set, IPv4 dotted quad, is virtually a lookup list.

Note2: I came across a complex Internet map of how the spammer/spyware/adware and advertizers are linked together and how they share cookie profile information with each other. Shame I cannot give you the URL it was fascinating and would scare the living crap out of everybody here that thinks it must be hard to track people across the Internet. Visit a dozen or so sites after deleting your cookies and web cache and you may find that the b~stards have aquired your personal profile again, against your wishes.

Has anyone else seen this map I'm referring to, or something similar? (I might have come across it on Slashdot or TheRegister about 5 years ago 'memory is fading')

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

we need to drop the fixation of ip address as pii, as phorm are not interested in it, as BTR only use dynamic addresses so ip is of no relevance to phorm, (not sure about tt or vm?)

and this is also the issue that causes them most grief as BTW controll the RAS servers i believe so that makes it difficult for BTR to do the account level opt out without the help of BTW (which i believe they are not allowed to do as they are ment to be different companies and NOT share data)

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VM cable is supposed to use dynamic IP allocation, however I've had my address for a few weeks at least.

BTW, I agree with you, whilst there are many other aspects of Phorm we don't agree with, not getting the IP address of each user of the system is the one good thing out of all that crap.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well can see the news soon peoples data lost while working online from home the MP's in question didn't do anything wrong except use BT total for internet and allow Phorm to be set into the network.
This news follows on from last weeks where secret plans for moving our boys back from the front line where intercepted and only link we can find is this person is again a BT total customer.

Police are investigate..

Can see that in large print soon since they seem unable or unwilling to listen...

Phorm will do this http://www.spywareinfo.com/articles/hijacked/

Not sure if this has been highlighted in thread agreed it was 2007 but then again BT's illegal trials were 2006/2007.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070129/233453.shtml

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if BTR used static ip's then yes phorm would be after them like a shot,

what we need to find out is what is in the diagnostic logs that are kept for up to 14 days and who has access to them and are they then shipped and stored

i suspect they are similar to the logs from the illegal trials which gives ip, and various other pii to show how the system is performing

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can't understand it's Sunday and no promise of a trial this week.Losing their touch or the press wiseing up and smelling the BS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While I was with VM I hardly ever changed my IP address infact unless my modem was offline for over 3 hours I had the same IP number looking at the IP list on ISPreview in 8 yrs I had 24 IP numbers. I checked ISPreview as I moderate there and visit it everyday so easiest way to check IPs I have used over 8 yrs.

Wonder hjow many complaints they wil get if Phjorm goes ahead and function creep then starts to grow and Phorm starts to use the whole list on tghe patent for phorm.
http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559869

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have recently canceled my friendsreunited membership after looking at the tracking that their new FREE-to-everyone membership offers. They did not appear to be too worried that that was the reason I gave for leaving. They are seeing the $$$$ signs and nothing more.

Just add them to the list of blocked domains in the hosts file. Why? - ads with tracking cookies appear on the login and edit profile pages.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I´m sorry to say (from my holiday late night bar :) )that she went onto say absolutely nothing that she has not said in letters to many other people who have written to her. Before I went on holiday she sent EXACTLY the same letter to me too. Completely crap. Sorry, I´ve had many drinks, but to borrow the words of a fellow contributor here: "Makes my blood boil"

Shriti has to be spelt so carefully, especially given how I feel catching up on so much content here after days away and seeing the *****e coming from our Government on the issue. Absolutely unacceptable, this total disregard for the law so far is shocking. I can only hope that they are reading the intelligent debate taking place here and elsewhere (I hope they are skipping over some of the less intelligent debate - no offence intended - I know that we garner support by using different methods, but some of the tack has been less than high level in the last 5 days or so!)

Hank

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:48 ----------

Yes, I agree Pete. What the heck is happening? Don Foster was apparently pro our position - what has changed that?

Hank

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------

Yeah but let´s not wait for that to happen!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://digg.com/tech_news/Deep_Packe...Privacy_Online

Copy and Paste into URL bar, this one will almost definitely make Digg front page. Last torrentfreak article about me hit about 1600 Diggs, the article has already sent over 200 people to the NoDPI web site in the last hour and over 600 page views.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you read the HO report, it is confirmed there that where the ISP customer has opted in and the website being intercepted is displaying the javascript which allows the OIX adverts to be displayed, then RIPA does not apply as both sender and receiver are deemed to have agreed to the interception.

I don't think anyone reading this forum has any problem with that analysis. If you don't follow what I am on about - read the questions: they are very specific about what is being considered.

I am so happy that she is aware of how unhappy people are. People are agreeing to having adverts delivered to them and to be warned about phishing sites.
Nowhere is anyone agreeing to having their visits to any other sites which do not display adverts intercepted. Nor are there any scripts on the non-OIX partner sites which can in any way be deemed to indicate that they have consented to the interception.

There is a very finely defined list of who may be intercepted: ISP customers (limited to individual identifiable users on the IP address) who have opted in and partner sites who are hosting the OIX scripts.

Even people who share the same IP address can not be deemed to have consented (so you had better not intercept their traffic looking for an opted in/out cookie). Likewise, all other sites must be excluded (if not there is RIPA [criminal] and Copyright [civil] to protect them).

Phorm need to have a list of opted in sites and users and need to ensure that those and only those communication streams are intercepted, else they fall foul of RIPA and PECR.

However, the ISP customers have not consented to the browser hijack nor the forged cookies that are being placed onto their computers (nor have the sites agreed to the use of the domain in this manner). The various Acts covering the legalities/crimes have already been discussed.

Phorm appear to be unable to understand the advice they have been given - no doubt trusting that their new cookie writing script will be successful in ensuring cookies are stripped and are invisible to all sites that can claim an illegal interception under RIPA.

That is because BT have kept very quiet about the millions of sites they will be intercepting who are not/should not be considered part of the trial.

Phorm and BT don't understand it - what chance has anyone else of getting close to the truth?

I can [sort of] agree with Phorm on this: the equipment that needs to be considered for PECR s7 is sitting within the ISP - the ICO should be asking this question of the ISP and not Phorm (although, as Phorm understand the technology, they should be answering on behalf of the ISP and not on behalf of Phorm/OIX). The ISP is using the IP address to deliver the advert back to the customer. Without IP address, the advert can not be delivered. The script delivering the advert will have access to the IP address and the UID (we only have Phorm's assurance that they won't use the display of the adverts to tie in the IP address and the UID).

And ignoring any discussion about interceptions that fall outside the Webwise remit.

I just hope that the HO and ICO read my letters to them regarding there being no provision within the trial for sites to opt-in. Assuming that all sites are happy to be opted in by default and requiring 165 million sites to contact BT to ensure that they are treated as opted out is not practical under common law let alone any other legal requirement.

Websites are commercial businesses. No one may copy the confidential communications between a business and its customers and then use that information to sell advertising so that the competition can come along and poach the customers. For the government to allow that to happen is to put thousands if not millions of small internet based businesses out of business.

It is not only me saying this. Webmasters around the world are shouting on many forums that their sites may not be intercepted. Are you listening, HO, there is no implied consent to sites' content being copied, profiled, channeled and sold to advertisers. NONE. Commercial businesses do not consent to their customers being tracked around the internet. The relationship between a website and its customers is PI to the business so why should Phorm be allowed to use [sell] it to commercial advantage?

And, why does everyone want to destroy thousands of businesses? - so that thousands of blogs that host on free hosting using free scripts and only take a few hours a day to maintain can be monetised and earn the writers some money for their spammy articles.

Anyway, icsys, I hope the above gives you some ammo to include in your reply to your MP and Shriti Vadera of BERR. They both need educating.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well said Madslug :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what they said
you forgot one thing they cannot intercept a minors data, profile it and sell it on for adverts can they.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

14,966

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, they can and are planning to intercept traffic from minors.

If you look on the OIX site (read the source on the contact page for advertisers/publishers) and one of the channel options is 'teens'. It was only after I saw this within the code (found it first on the test site that their web designer was hosting - don't you just love Google's cache?) and that one word probably did more to get me involved in stopping this than anything else that has been discovered about it.

In fact, a minor is responsible for the username I am currently using.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well teens is any age from 13 to 19 a minor as I see it is 12 and under.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lots of minors use the internet connections of the account holder. Hopefully only to use permitted sites by their parents, but that does not allow or consent to their data to be intercepted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

DPI can already do all that you do not want it to do. There are 2 parts to traffic: the header and the visible content.

For traffic shaping, only the header data is read. This says what type of data it is. Video and music have different header data from standard text on a web page so it is relatively easy to give each a different contention ratio. That is a valid business purpose to improve the service.
If you don't like your ISP limiting you because they have oversold the capacity of the pipes they use, move to an ISP who has invested in their own pipes and invests again before traffic congestion begins to effect performance experienced by their customers (costs more than £10 a month).

The content data is also available to the DPI system. Processing that too costs a lot of money and CPU power, so there is no financial reason to include that additional data for performance reasons.

However, there is nothing stopping anyone using DPI to copy everything. It 'sits on' the data stream and can view whatever it is programmed to view. If a court order walked in the door, I suspect that any UK ISP already installs all the equipment necessary to stream off 100% of the traffic data for a specific data stream. It just needs the court order to do so.

What Phorm is doing is taking that 100% data stream and running its own software on it. When it arrives at the Phorm supplied software, all the PI data is part of the stream. The IP address (that is usually classed as PI) is a problem for the Phorm system as the ISPs give out random IP addresses each time a person connects their router to the internet, so using IP address as idenifier would not be feasible for Phorm. This is why they give everyone a 'random' UID so that their surfing round the internet can be followed. This is much more personal than an IP address and each browser used on the computer will be given a unique UID. If a building shares an IP address - even it the IP address is static, there could be hundreds of people using the address. By identifying the actual browser being used, there is more chance that the UID identifies the same person for each visit to the internet.

The way the system works, the UID, once set, is available in every data stream sent from the user's browser so the system can immediately add the current data collected to that already stored by the system.

I know that BT/Phorm say that some data like https and blacklisted sites is excluded from being profiled. They do not say that it is not first intercepted so that it can be identified as data that should not be profiled. Phorm do say that they profile URLs and nowhere do they say that they differentiate between http and https URL content - only the content on the https web page is excluded. For this reason, I used 100% in the above text.

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Legally, a minor may not undertake a contract. In the advertising world, teen is about 9+ (you only have to look at who reads 'teen' magazines).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well my child has been using computers in school since day one, now has to use one online to access his school work from home, and down loads and uploads what ever work is on the schools system and his a/c, even I have access to their school work to see how they are doing in any subject.
I let they surf the web I even help let em play online games and keep in touch with other family members around the country, yes the pc in the main room where we all sit and no one is ever alone on the pc unlike some in a back room out of sight doing as they please.
this pc has no ads from any web site unless it`s in direct context of what the site offers no 3rd party cookies, no popups and no data saved either not even our login details or anything, as a lot of people who visit us, always use my pc or the wifi with laptops even mobile phones to check their emails and forums via my ip.

just like any other family out there 1 ip many users.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In law, the term minor (also infant or infancy) is used to refer to a person who is under the age in which one legally assumes adulthood and is legally granted rights afforded to adults in society. Therefore a minor in the UK is a person under the age of 18.