Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Looks as though we're in mid-table obscurity to me.

http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2014...014-8pages.pdf

What happens to this figure if pensions are removed from it?

Would it not be far less misleading to quote figures for working age cash benefits only, given those are the ones the Chancellor is going after with welfare cuts?

Perhaps if wages reflected the cost of living and their increase better reflected increases in productivity in our economy rather than going to the top, and over £20 billion a year weren't being handed to landlords, a fair proportion to help house people who are in work, we'd be in better shape.

Either way a really rather weak attempt to justify policies with an ideological, not practical motive. There are other ways to deal with the bill than welfare cuts.

EDIT: I see the forum humanitarian of the decade being his usual self going by the quotes and advocating aggressive welfare cuts.

Here're some comments from that well-known far-left bleeding heart liberal group the Institute of Economic Affairs indicating that simply cutting tax credits is grossly unfair on those it may affect.

I have no more time for those who can, but won't, work than anyone else. However simply taking a hatchet to the working poor is just cynical and cruel. It's not their fault our economy has spent a few decades pushing wealth upwards, or that it rewards non-productive investment so much more than productive labour, or that their housing costs are extortionate relative to incomes.

If we are going to reduce welfare we absolutely must make work pay via a combination of taking those on minimum wage out of both income tax and pretend National Insurance, aka income tax 2nd edition, and we must ensure costs of living and wages better reflect one another. In-work welfare should not exist. That it does indicates that our private sector is taking the taxpayer for a ride and that we as a country have failed to make work pay.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Labour brought in the tax credits system with the deliberate intention of increasing benefits. The public borrowing started up around that time. It is that excessive amount paid out in tax credits that has to be corrected. The problem is that there will be a lot of squealing if that is done.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It has already started :D

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

l have nothing against anybody who wants to talk about benefits as long as the debate is reasoned thought out and not driven by their own prejudiced views on benefits.

Also l am fine about Welfare reform as long as its fair and proportional which quite clearly it ain't.

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------

The things is David Cameron is saying employers should take the strain and pay their workers more to balance the expected shortfall in reduced tax credits but can you see the employers paying more?.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If you are referring to "my" prejudiced views, didn't you just say above that you had no time for layabouts and cheats? It seems we share the same prejudices :confused:.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Tax credits were introduced in 1999. Our debt to GDP ratio continued to fall until 2003, and even after that the current budget was still in balance for a time after 2003 with the borrowing being soaked up by capital expenditure.

Tax credits were introduced for a similar reason to the minimum wage - an attempt to arrest the increase in the UK's GINI coefficient and subsidise lower paid work to reduce reliance on out of work welfare. Google GINI it if you don't know what that is, but given you're so certain it was just about building a client state I won't hold my breath.

Try not to let facts get in the way of a nice rant.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

l think the difference is you think everybody on benefits sits on their bloody ass and is a scrounger/skiver where my point its a tiny minority who do that thus you are misrepresenting the facts because of your deep prejudices about benefit claimants.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Quite embarrassing thinking I used to be a Libertarian type and hold similar attitudes.

Then I grew up and became simply small 'l' liberal.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Tax Credits Act 2002
What has debt to GDP ratio got to do with it? Even though public debt as a %age of GDP still increased prior to 2008. I am talking about having to borrow when you shouldn't. We are talking about around £40bn each year prior to 2008. In household terms if you have a good income and you are still having to take out additional loans, your spending is too high. The previous systems to tax credits were less generous but were still acceptable.

After 2008 you had the changing of housing benefit with the Local Housing Allowance which was AGAIN far too generous(50th percentile rather than the current 30th). Labour admitted as much in a 2009 report. That again increased borrowing more than it needed to.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I really don't think anyone believes that Den. We all know there are lots of people with conditions, disabilities etc. which prevent them from working. We also know that there are people who could work but don't want to and prefer to exist on benefits of one sort or another. That's undeniable. We can argue about the proportions of each and the extent of abuse in the system but I've never heard anyone seriously claim all benefits claimants are scroungers.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

l know everybody does not believe that Osem but there is a very vocal bunch out there who would have us believe that being a benefit claimant is akin to being a leper of society and thus have no hesitation in demonising benefit claimants as that when we know that's simply not true.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But it is the fastest growing bill to the tax payer and the welfare system and is estimated to be as much as the total welfare bill is now by 2030

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

@ Den - I think if pressed, most of these people, even if they do make crass statements to that effect, would have to accept that they're talking nonsense when pressed. It's easy to take isolated comments and extrapolate from them all sorts of things which aren't true and were never intended. People who're unaffected by disability will obviously not understand the reality which those afflicted face and say silly things, but in most cases that's more down to knee jerk, uninformed, reaction than any serious thought process with evidence to support it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Tax credits is about 30 billion a year less than 5% of the total tax and NI take and a lot of it is paid to workers

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The Government, and Local Government, as desperate to get out of the Pension Game.

Masses of Public Servants made redundant to reduce the future bills. Changes to pensions schemes to move more, and eventually all of us, onto private schemes.

Unfortunately the economic downturn has meant poor performance in Pensions Schemes worldwide, so there will be a big shortfall one day.

So they will try to reduce all other "benefits" so that there will be enough to pay the State, Civil Service and Local Government Service pensions that already exist. But one day those pensions will gobble up all we have to spend.

And then we could end up like Greece.