Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Without sales talk and PR spin give 10 good reasons why we should accept Phorm/webwise?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can give one good reason not to feed trolls :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So that BT can make loads more money and give their Directors larger bonuses.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see you have been busy burying Webwise on Digg , with the help of others.

Kill-filed . Goodbye!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hamsterwheel has no interest in a proper debate, (s)he's only here to wind us up.
Ignore it and it'll crawl back under its rock before long.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You failed on your one good chance to gain some respect.

The new CEO will be paid £50,000 a year more than Ben who leaves end of June another manager will get a payrise of over £190,000 taking his wage to £850,000 same wage as Ian will be on once he takes on CEO.

This is already taken from customers payments for internet phone line and anything else BT share like dabs....
Maybe the real reason you didn't answer correctly was due to knowing we are right with what we say and everything phorm/webwise offer is worthless to us just worth money to those who wil become pimps pimping customers clicks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've already got it on my ignore list, now can people stop quoting it please?:)

Thanks

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:) constructive question I had which was above the ability to answer correctly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Today, getting ready for a trip away from Blighty I was sorting through papers and there it was, a letter acknowledging my new contract with BT. And joy of joys, 12 months old :)

So on the phone I go, to ask what the deals are (but, more importantly, before I agree to any new contact term, what's the deal with Phorm and Webwise)...

I explained that before I renew any contract I would like to know if they are going to implement Phorm and Webwise. The BT employee I spoke with did not know what Phorm or Webwise was.

He asked what it was so I told him. I said it is where BT put a system in their network which watches what I and my family do on our internet connection so they can sell advertising for a higher price, knowing what I am interested in.

I loved the next bit... He said, I quote: "That sounds illegal"
His supervisor also knew nothing about it.

BT employee thinks that interception of broadband connections by an ISP is illegal

So, it is interesting isn't it (or unsurprising?) that BT empoloyees here in the UK know nothing about Phorm/Webwise. If I was responsible for internal communication at BT then I would probably want to keep it quiet also.

However, if I was a BT employee I would be really hacked off by this. Their own company not trusting them to know what they are doing. Or does BT know that even their own people would find the prospect of DPI as distasteful as we all do here? Especially if their call centre employees draw the conclusion that interception of customer data on their private connections is illegal.

All I can say is, sorry Barry at BT and your supervisor. It's not nice to know you work for a company who you think is probably doing something illegal.

Perhaps I should have also told him that BT er, erm, "sought extensive legal advice" ("sought it" not necessarily "got it" - and if they got it, we don't know what it said)

How do we get to let the employees at BT know about Phorm Webwise and BT's plans? How about standing outside the HQ/Telesales offices and handing them a copy of the BT leaflet PDF? There's nothing illegal about doing that and it would raise the profile high enough to require BT to brief their employees. Done well, without intimidation, in a very civil manner, this could be exactly what is needed.

No, I have not received the 24 hour warning (is that like the 4 minute warning ahead of nuclear war? :D)

Hank

(PS - Alexander: Adwords voucher PM'd to you today)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah .. I realise the pit-falls .. worth checking these things out though! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can anyone remember seeing a posting from anyone who thinks Phorm/Webwise is a "good thing" who:

1. Is on an ISP that is going to be "Phormed"
2. Intends to allow their browsing to be monitored (i.e. will be opting in)
3. Will not benefit financially if Phorm succeeds (i.e. does not own Phorm shares)

Where people advocating Phorm do not meet those three points I consider their opinion is totally worthless.

(Of course having posted this I confidently expect we will see PhormPRTeam registering yet another fake user who apparently matches the list)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have we seen this article on the Reg about VM throttling 'net connections using DPI technology?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...ttling_denial/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hamster. If you like phorm and BT so much why not use it, instead of zen?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not a bad idea. All local offices would need to be located.

I have found:

Registered office: 81 Newgate Street, London EC1A 7AJ
BT plc Correspondence Centre: Durham DH98 1BT

...but that's about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a big BT building in Leeds for sure (near the train station - I was there last week and noticed it)

What does anyone else think of this idea? Anyone know where the big call centres are?

(Let's focus on the issues and not go around that wheel thing again!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

India :) like Virgin Media

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you know someone in BT then there is an A-Z of buildings on their intranet. Even addresses of some that you wouldn't think were BT premises at all (the Sheffield Command Center is one that springs to mind).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just received this info in a mail from the European Commission;

The Roundtable was a participatory event. Commissioner KUNEVA did not meet individually with anyone and had a brief meeting with the Office of Fair Trading after the Roundtable. Richard Clayton of the Foundation for Information Policy Research was invited to represent the concerns of users. Unfortunately, it was not possible to invite everybody and we needed to select a limited group of people. Rest assured, the organizers were able to strike a good balance of stakeholders. For your information, the Cabinet of Commissioner KUNEVA do not follow the Phorm case as it is in the competency of Commissioner BARROT in charge of Justice, Freedom and Security.

(my bold)

Justice, Freedom, Security... and online advertising?

Anyway, looks like another person we need to write/fax to. Grit your teeth, fire up the word processor, hookup the old fax modem...

Jacques Barrot

Contact Information;

Vice President Jacques Barrot
EUROPEAN COMMISSION
B-1049 BRUSSELS

Phone: + 32 (0)2 298 15 01
Fax: + 32 (0)2 298 15 99

I have got the agenda of Ms Kuneva's visit, if anyone's interested.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL - Yeah defo they have one/some, but often I get North East accents, not just Delhi or similar! And Barry today was not using "Barry" as an easy to say/easy sounding psuedonym :)

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------

Good info Pete. I have already written to her so hopefully my letter will be forwarded - gotta dash now or I would write another!! If it does not get to Barrot, I will be writing again...

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT directories: Ward Road Dundee DD1 1BA
BT directories customer services: Town walls, shrewsbury SY1 1TY

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, Talking of India, has this been posted already?, nothing new though!


http://www.financialexpress.com/news...u-surf/326320/

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

want to get the msg across to the bt staff put flyers on the bt vans windscreens,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT Edinburgh:

Morningside (1 building)
Dalry Road (1 building)
Edinburgh Park (2 buildings)

I'll get the addresses of these, and others (inc) glasgow, from my contact and add to this post as an edit. I'll also try to get the list of addresses (A-Z).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No idea why you've gone to the lengths of registering a new username to post once, have you not the guts to address me with your proper username ?
Or do you think the moderators will ban you for some rule transgression ?

If you really want to know, I'm not at my regular PC at the moment but do use BT at home and will be happy to use Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so you don`t have kids then, if you do by letting them use the internet you will be letting bt and phorm intercept profile and sell their clicks and be served ads which is illegal full stop to do such a thing if it goes live.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Disagree - all children use the internet on a supervised basis, so the adult who pays the ISP bill is responsible for what the child is served as adverts.

No porn ads served with Phorm so no problem.

If the child thing was that much of an issue then you lot would have spent a lot longer on it. And the authorities might even have been interested, rather than seeing the anti-Phormers as something of a tiresome annoyance, however well-intentioned.

As a taxpayer, I hate to think how many civil servants hours are being wasted responding to all the letters etc some of you are apparently sending.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Everyone please ignore Hamsterwheel, don't feed the troll; his only purpose here is to try and disrupt the discussion, the same as it has been everywhere else he has posted on this issue. If you want to see just how offensive Hamsterwheel is, go and read the ADVFN forums.

There is actually a firefox plugin which enables ignore functionality for forums which do not offer it as a feature, I will try and dig it out later.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well Hamster - debating for once, thank you - much more like it...

Ok firstly - European DPA prohibits any child under the age of 13 to give implied consent, so its criminal in the following respects:

- Library: My local Library is on BT RESIDENTIAL (Yes) therefore my children would not be permitted to use the net on these premises.
- Childcare: My Childcare provider user VM RESIDENTIAL, therefore my children would not be permitted to use on these premises.
- Grandparents/Babysitters/Aunts/Uncles/Cousins: most of these, in my case, use VM - the rest BT. Now under Scottish Law (did you forget that its different up here?), these individuals are afforded no Parental Rights and Responsibilities, as defined under the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 - therefore they cannot neither assume consent, nor can they imply consent.

You should also consider that the majority of users are under the age of 16, and effectively EU and Regional Law (as in Scotland) would make it an offense to suggest that children are asked to give consent.

EDIT:

Not for Kent: You should take serious note that it is an Criminal Offence in Scotland to knowingly ask consent of a Child under the age of 16 years without the prior knowledge of the parent. Therefore, every child who switches on their PC when you roll this atrocious system out, and the Parents are none the wiser. In short, Kent, you MUST explain FULLY to every Parent in Scotland the workings of this system, and allow them to make an informed decision that the Child is permitted; subsequently you MUST ensure plenty of notice so that parents can make such a decision.

I for one will SUE YOU PERSONALLY under Scottish Law, should any of my children get offered your Opt-out page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex - are you scared of discussion ?

Not sure why you think it is equitable to go on my share boards and post totally one-sided anti-Phorm propoganda and then object when I come on pro-Phorm sites to try and even up the viewpoints ?

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Consent to do what though ? That is the question.
I'd argue that what Phorm are doing does not need consent. Or else what Google already does in a much more invasive way would also be illegal, but it's not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am hoping to have some very good news later this week everyone. I can't go into any details at this time as I am under a non-disclosure agreement, but I can say it would be very very good news for the campaign if everything works out as it appears it will.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well thats your arguement - you heard mine.

We'll agree to disagree and move on?

(This is a test of your resolve, and your intentions Hamster)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That sounds ominous (for BT/Phorm) :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Investers getting itchy feet !!!

Half million worth of shares sold, look at last sell:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...;timeframe=480

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No BT trial then........ Yet again

:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Share sales and purchases for the day virtually match.
Price up on the day.
Investors will be able to afford to pay someone else to scratch their feet !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's late reported, from 9.17 this morning. Don't know if that means anything?

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp...re=phorm_reg_s

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think there is a delicate difference between needing consent for searches you yourself choose to enter into Google to be logged (which by its very nature is opt-in) and needing informed consent to have your entire port 80 data stream intercepted, analyzed (prior to being 'anonimyzed', and, more importantly, to determine if you give consent for said data to be collected, analyzed etc.).

Google's sytem is limited to people first choosing to use their site and is then only limited to what users do on that site. Once a search is run and results are returend that is the end of the data collection by Google. Furthermore, the data harvesting can be completely opted out from by blocking Google's tracking cookies. Once that is done, nothing is recorded, the opt-out is 100% In addition, if that is not enough for a user, they can choose not to use Google at all. Conversely, Phorm is always present on a connection.

Phorm as you are aware is not limited by either of these, as they see and intercept the entire thing, before they can decided if you are opted in or not. That is by far more invasive. To increase the invasiveness, to determine an opt-out status Phorm has to intercept your data stream - by which time is is technically too late to ask for consent for something which has already been done. That is what makes Phorm 'appear' more illegal than Google.

It should also be noted that these interceptions are all prior to data being anonymized, therefore the issues of Phorm's legality are under question before that data has been cleanseed so the "phorm stores no personally identifiable data" data doesn't even come close to addressing this.

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------

To sumamrise, it is the method of data collection and the apparent inability to completely opt-out of having data intercepted which upsets most people, and also has the brighter bulb of being illegal than the techniques incorporated by Google and other search engines.

The anonymizing process on the other hand is, I agree, a good effort - it is a shame everything piror to that does not satisfy me (personally) one bit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jackson - you can opt out of Phorm too, and in a way that seems so far to be agreeable to the regulators.
You will no doubt choose to disagree, but your vote doesn't really count if the regulators decide otherwise.

Sure you can all make up valid arguments about which 3 nanoseconds Phorm appears to be breaking some rule or other, but the authorities will not wish to stand in the way of commercial progress just to comply with some part of a rule or law that was not intended to cover the way Phorm is operating, but has just been used to try and object to Phorm.

That is the nub of my argument - sure you may be able to find a law and try and attach it to what Phorm does, but if it wasn't intended to catch the sort of thing Phorm does, then the authorities will not bother applying it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ah you see though, how does Phrom see if you are opted out? By doing the very thing is is determining consent for. This is a classic chicken and egg problem.

The clearest analogy is sealing an envelope and having a message inside saying "I do not give consent for Mr Postman to open and read this" and of course the Postman will only know your consent status by opening and reading the letter. Too late.

My persoanl opionin on Phorm's opt-out is that it should be rebranded just a little, to 'you can opt-out of the adverts'. The DPI data interception of your entire traffic will still take palce.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jackson - my interpretation of what you are objecting to is that it is a bit like a voyeur looking over a wall into the window of a school changing room. As long as he keeps his eyes shut then what's the problem ?
Sure you can argue that he might open his eyes for a crafty peek, but if you apply that then everyone who walks past the wall would also be guilty, just in case they jumped up and peered over the wall.... am I losing the plot here ? :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While this troll is active I suggest everyone not directly involved in the interaction goes off & continues the Webwise/Phorm debate elsewhere, this will eventually have far more impact than appearing "to feed the troll".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I didn't see that coming. :rolleyes:

I think they call it 'the dump'.

Pumpetypumpetypumpetydump.

:drunk:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Self protesction - your definition of "debate" being ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There were two trades totalling over 1.2 million SOLD today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As the larger one was a delayed trade from much earlier, it was actually much more likely to have been a BUY.

That is why the price went up - Investing 101. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why are people QUOTING, REPLYING, BEING SUCKED IN BY THIS PERSON (the one whose arguments goes round in circles as though we are stuck on a hamster wheel)? We have been there, seen it and done it!!!

If you follow what has gone on this forum from over the weekend, debating, talking, conversing with this guy or gal is a waste of forum space, detracts from the debate and waters down the good content on this board.

PLEASE IGNORE? He or she does the same on other boards and adds no value to the debate apart from dragging replies from the mainly senseless comments that are made which I feel is done purposely.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Double dump?

:rofl:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a BT call centre in:
Was: Dundas Arcade Now: Dundas Shopping Centre
Dundas Street
Middlesbrough
TS1 1HR
Telephone: 01642 230800
http://www.dundasshopping.co.uk
http://www.dundasshopping.co.uk/shopMap.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally agree (again). I have started PMing those who do respond, pleading with them to stop.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cool. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We should have a sweepstake.

Closest guess to the start date and time of the next BT trials.

This could be 'technical' trial, 'user' trial, or a trial before the beak (sorry my lord), whatever comes first, involving Phorm and BT.

I suppose, to clarify, whatever is officially confirmed, by BT or the CPS.

Cost of entry, £5 donation to NoDPI.org, honesty required!

Prize for the winner : bragging rights and any rep points people want to give.

I'm off to do my donation and will post my guess in a bit.

EDIT : Prize for the winner : [changed , for :] - no prize except the brownie points. Apologies for typo.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You know who you are - I deleted your PM - WITHOUT READING

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

Can we have a Rule that if they never start Alex is the winner and keeps the change!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

NoDPI.org keeps all the money anyway. No cash prizes in this one, just the brownie points.

I've just put in a fiver @

https://nodpi.org/

My guess is Monday, July 14th at 9.00 am.

They are so confident this will all work that they will start 2 days before the AGM. :angel:

Anyone else having a go quote the following so late joiners know what it's about.

EDIT : Alex is the winner if Kent gets a free flight home. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd rather place a bet that the trials will have to be halted early due to technological problems.

It's now coming up to a year since the last trials. A lot has changed since then. They may have updated the platform to take into consideration legal issues but they may not have taken into consideration changes in website technology and changes in user usage.

Users are downloading more and sites are becoming more complex - more sites are embracing web 2.0 techniques. Since 2007 many more users would have upgraded to 'faster broadband' and many would be using different hardware to what they had a year ago. Many would have upgraded their security software and even things like the O/S (windows) would have seen users PCs change significantly with auto updates, service packs etc.

The delay in trials could create new problems which they haven't had the chance to investigate yet.

IMO, if the trials do go ahead they will not be as successful as they are hoped to be. It could be that there would need to be a further trial later in the year.

EDIT: My guess on the exact date when the trials will start?

It will be the day the 80/20 PIA is released :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just donated my £5 to the just cause but can I claim the trial NEVER START date? I love to be positive and someone should be able to claim that date.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok my fiver is in.

I'm punting for 1st April 2009, because I reckon its going to take time ;)

Arrests, office raids, bail hearings, pre-trial hearings, case preparation, witness statements, potential extradition, imprisonment etc.

All of which takes time if you do it properly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hopefully 80/20 have woken from their bad dream by now and written an honest privacy assessment. That being the case I would imagine that Phorm would never let it see light of day ( just like the 80/20/Phorm meeting) and that would mean - I win the sweepstake! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Vague, abstract start dates are perfectly allowable. After all, if BT can do it, so can we. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an interesting story on The Register about the tricks that Phorm's Evil Twin NebuAd use - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...kes_on_nebuad/

Sorry if this has already been posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Robb Topolski seems like a nice chap to know...heavy hint, Alex!:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks Gixer. These companies do seem intent on upsetting Google don't they? :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good post - When companies whose roots are in the dirty spyware business such as NebuAd = Gator, Phorm = 121Media, is it surprising to anybody when they get up to their old tricks? This is why Phorm must be stopped. I believe it is "the nature of the beast" within!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hopefully they'll upset Google enough for it to take some expensive legal action against them :angel:

Thanks, warescouse - I'm afraid that you're right.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

while your trying to give your current POV in a valid and reasonable manor i don't see why we cant debate the point you raise.

not so much as to try and convince you to change your mind (as you clearly state, you put "profit" before all other considerations, much the same as a compulsive Gambler would), but rather to help any future readers that may at first have a like minded viewpoint due to lack of Knowledge or the facts.

i assume you value the law of the land and hold that to be your guide in all things ?.

browser crashed so give me a minute to correct this post and refresh later

"you can opt out of Phorm too", not true, you can perhaps opt-out of seeing the Ads , but you cant Opt-out of having your full data stream and that of the web pages you visit, Intercepted as clearly shown in the latest official BT diagram

it clearly shows, and there is no other choice given to you ,
all your data Must pass through the Interception device.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34524675

it clearly shows they place a cookie on your machine,store data on your machine, and retrieve data from your machine without your explicit informed consent if you refuse or otherwise opt-out of this ISP/Phorm wiretap.

pecr_reference
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...part2_1206.pdf
clearly shows this in against the statute #3951

" Sure you can all make up valid arguments about which 3 nanoseconds Phorm appears to be breaking some rule or other"

its not a rule, its the law, and implying how many nanoseconds it takes to break a law does nothing to reinforce your point, it only takes 3 nanoseconds to decide to kill someone, but that doesn't make it right if you do it does it.

"that seems so far to be agreeable to the regulators.
You will no doubt choose to disagree, but your vote doesn't really count if the regulators decide otherwise."

sure it might seem agreeable to the regulators and Home Office, but then you may be still unaware that they have already stated that they haven't look the Phorm case details , but rather some obscure non Phorm DPI, old style cookie model, and even then they state quite clearly,legally it must be fully opt-in to comply with the existing and current Uk and EU legal statutes...

theres also the fact you the end user are infact not just reliant on the regulators and their view or guidence..., you can perfectly well, bring your own private prosecution's in the likes of the small claims county courts, or higher courts if you so chose.

true it doesn't automatically mean it becomes a high court ruling unless you take your case there, but, as with the mass of unlawful Bank charges cases hitting and overloading the court system, if enough people did the same for this Phorm unlawful Interception, then the lower courts could just as easily see fit to move these strong cases to the higher courts to get this explicit ruling for all users to then use in their case files, after all Judges and their familys also use Bt (and VM)residential Broadband both in the offices and their homes.

"authorities will not wish to stand in the way of commercial progress just to comply with some part of a rule or law that was not intended to cover the way Phorm is operating, but has just been used to try and object to Phorm."

this is your weakest link and your greatest flaw, there is in fact already case law that covers exactly this case RIPA , while many have said RIPA is a bad law, it never the less exists and is current, that RIPA has already been used to convict a high ranking UK executive on the grounds of interception etc.

even the legal team that are retained by the BT executive http://www.out-law.com when asked about the 2006/7 trials replied
"Did it breach RIPA? Personally, I think that it probably did."


when asked about the real possibility of the BT executives authorizing and planning this, those involved in the installation and running of these trials might serve a jail term his response was far more evasive as you might expect.

"Some have compared BT's trial to the actions that led to the conviction under RIPA of Demon and Redbus founder Cliff Stanford. I think a court would consider the circumstances quite different, though."

it might be said "i think" doesn't cut it in the courts when there has already been a clear RIPA case conviction case law in the past with the Demon and Redbus founder Cliff Stanford

and heres what Geoffrey Rivlin QC, the trial judge and later Court of Appeal said

"
Geoffrey Rivlin QC, the trial judge had a different view. He pointed out that “right to control”
did not mean that someone had a right to access or operate the system, but that the Act required
that person to of had a right to authorise or to forbid the operation.

Stanford appealed the judge’s decision. However, the Court of Appeal upheld Rivlin’s view.

It pointed out that the purpose of the law was to protect privacy. Therefore Stanford’s sentence of 6 months imprisonment (suspended for two years) and a fine of £20,000 with £7000 prosecution costs
were upheld."

pretty clear cut that those executives and other involved in those 2006/7 trials are today looking to be convicted if and when a case gets put before a judge weather that be a private case or as we are expecting finally a public case when your regulators have been given no other choise but to uphold the law of the land.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seems odd that like Phorm they dispute any hard evidence of wrong doing and always trot out "user privacy" and "transparency" are these the new boardroom bingo words for lies and deceit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought after reading the BT trial report that "transparency" meant: they (BT/Phorm) tried to get away with as much as they could without the unsuspecting customer seeing what they were up to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reminder; another EC person we need to write/fax to...

Jacques Barrot

Contact Information;

Vice President Jacques Barrot
EUROPEAN COMMISSION
B-1049 BRUSSELS

Phone: + 32 (0)2 298 15 01
Fax: + 32 (0)2 298 15 99

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Vice President Jacques Barrot

Can anyone who knows about the EU tell me if a VP is a bigger cheese
than a Commissioner?

Does this mean the EU is escalating the issue?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the only way the PIA going to get viewed by the public is on wiki leaks, bout time the video was posted as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't see the PIA going public now for some time. Simon is out of the country on other business for the next month or two and as such it is probably not finished yet (although I haven't confirmed this with Simon yet). Saying that even when it is finished, I would be surprised if Phorm will release it to the public given their 180 on the PIA Public Meeting video.

Of course this is just my opinion, until I can get confirmation from Simon I can't be certain as to the current position of the PIA. I will drop him an email tomorrow.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All my letters to the EU have asked them to look into the PIA and publish it if they take any action.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think they would be able to do anything along the lines of the PIA, it is a private contract between two companies.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They might want to know 80/20's thoughts about the issue though, considering they will be chairing an EU working party, or so I believe?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ooo page 666

I just don't think the EU would have any avenue for gaining access to the PIA (with exception of possibly requiring it for evidence in a legal case), they don't have the power to jump in and demand to see commercially sensitive resources without good reason. The PIA is a private business arrangement between Phorm and 80/20 Thinking they are not obliged to publish it, they merely stated they would.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You just beat me to it. :)

Anyways, looks like more Phorm PR FUD here: http://www.netimperative.com/news/20...d-system-phorm.

I'm particularly interested in the last paragraph:

We all know that anything E&Y say is carp, but can anyone remember Simon saying anything of the sort?

OB

Edit: Just re-read this bit:
What a whopping porky, that is.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if you look at http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/ar...3&in_page_id=2 it gives call centres in St Helens on Merseyside, Dumbarton in Scotland and Kettering, Northamptonshire, Wakefield

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Page 666 - the page of the devil

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


I think the PIA is now AWOL and should be dismissed.
It is most likely out of date with the technolology as it was back in March and how it probably is now at the end of June. I imagine there has been a lot of tweaking going on behind the scenes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent : puff of smoke, beating of wings. :)

I wondered what was going on for a bit, i'm on page 1, different sort order!

EDIT : My prediction was he would leg it when his share price got there. :doh:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i sent emma a email to say i had not recieved a reply to a previous one and asked about date and got this back

**************

Mr White

Apologies for the delay - will pick up tomorrow and get back to you.

We plan to trial the service shortly, I'm afraid I cannot be more specific than that but as promised we will be giving at least 24 hours notice.

Regards
Emma

******************

nothing much changed there then , apart from i thought it was 48 hours notice??

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I use

https://ssl.scroogle.org/

Why can't I use Google with https?


Shame. :nutter:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it would seem you might be HamsterWheel, after all, as the resident ProPhorm/ISP Interception Advocate, your post above seems to advocate it's perfectly ok for your infested ISP/Phorm personel to covertly stalk and take snapshots of school children using their specialised devices made and installed for that purpose.... and profit from that practice, a very odd stance for a Pro Phormer indeed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For a moment I thought you'd asked her on a date!!

Still could be handy if she talks in her sleep...


Nah


;):D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to my world, kenty puppy.:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is there are more information about Phorm and Virgin Media? What about this opt-out?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Gotta get a post on this page :angel:

Hey Alex, sent you an urgent message.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it fate that Damien gets a post on page 666? :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LMAO :D:D

There are just so many things wrong with that comment, that I don't know where to start. :p: :dunce:

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Coming up to 10000 posts as well!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Damien, thanks for the post and asking. VM appear to be very quiet, the policy they have adopted for months.

5 or 6 weeks ago there were rumours that VM were going to drop phorm (Guardian and The Register), but my honest feeling is that VM have been a lot smarter then BT over this. I suspect VM started those rumours, and are just creating a breathing space for themselves.

It's bought them several pressure free weeks. They are, just like the government, just waiting to see what happens.


Opt-out is anybodies guess. Everything should be opt-in (according to the ICO). Given the various regulatory bodies attitude on this, opt-in may mean not-noticed.

We hope the EU may have other ideas.

EDIT : Make sure 10,000 is a gert great ad for the demo. Alex should have the honour.

If not, do this link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He's usually up at this hour. Like Churchill - can get by on 4hrs sleep.

---

Here's a good posting today to counteract the PR drivel which has popped up in various places

Smelling The Almonds Or Will ISPs Take The Phorm Cyanide Pill

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's an excellent article, Frank; great find. :)

Must really hack Kent off when he thinks a meeting with someone will mean a good write up and then the guy goes away and tears Phorm to shreds in his finished article instead.

OB

btw.
Agreed, post 10,000 should be Alex's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good article but what always confused me is comments such as “once consumers understand our system and its benefits, they will like it.� that Phorm regurgitates. Like what?????? What planet is Kent on?

I think I am a fair minded guy but I really struggle to see even a single benefit compared to what I have already. Forgetting for one moment all Phorms sins (and their are lots of them IMHO)

Targeted Adverts - yes we all love them don't we? That's why I make the coffee while the football is on and come back to watch the adverts. NOT......
I would rather save my bandwidth!

Anti Phishing toolbar. - Sorry I have that protection already and I didn't like what I saw of 121Medias last toolbar!

err I think that is about it.

That should bring it to 9995 :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

regarding the trials lets not forget Chris M's Jun 13, 2008 8:50 PM betaBT post

they were expecting to run an 8 months large scale trial, thats a very long time just to see if it scales well.

you might be forgiven for thinking it could be just long enough to try and recoop their investment in the hardware and related costs from the advertisers profits before it got pulled...

and anyone care to run the No. of potential RIPA violations extrapolated from the figures we already know ,never mind the other laws, broken copyright might be another good one to estimate ;)

i hope he kept a copy of that T&C (one more A4 printout for the court documents some day),as true to Phorm, its now missing on that link.

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=26542#26542
"I hadn't/haven't been invited to take part but, out of curiosity, I thought I'd have a look and upon reading the T&Cs of: https://www2.formwize.com/run/survey3.cfm?ID=1081, I noticed under the heading: "Service Schedule" this line:
* The duration of the next generation speed trial is at our sole discretion but is initially scheduled to run from February 2008 to October 2008.
....
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That certainly has potential. However, I think it would be very tricky to apply it as a general technique to all websites. Cookies can be set by JavaScript (and Java), so you can’t rely on the Set-Cookie headers from the server alone. If you were to look at the Cookie headers sent by the browser, you won’t have information on the path, domain or, most importantly, the expiry time.

If you’re not going to store raw information, but only one-way hash values, even using Set-Cookie headers has limitations.

• Cookies are assigned not just to a particular domain, but to a particular path within each domain. I don’t usually allow cookies to be set, but I’ve gone around trying to pick up a representative sample. They all had path=/. So, in practice, you might be able to recognise the same user accessing any page of a website, using the cookie hash for any other page.
• Cookies have an expiry time. If you wanted to recognise the same user using both the same browsing session and a different one, you would need to create two different hash values – one containing all cookies and one containing only long-lived cookies. The occasional cookie with an expiry time in the very near future could be treated the same as a session cookie.
• Cookies for a domain can be set by more than one website. For example, site1.example.com and site2.example.com can both set cookies for the same domain of .example.com. So, site1.example.com could return cookies set by site2.example.com, and vice versa.

You could try to hash the cookie header sent with the request for the final object within a page that’s stored within the same domain as the page itself. However, it might be better to teach the system which cookies are important. If an international user clicks on, say, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7470304.stm, you’ll see something like:

GET /adj/bbccom.live.site.news/news_africa_content;... HTTP/1.1
Host: ad.doubleclick.net
Referer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7470304.stm
Cookie: id=80000282f0e0ca4

If the user got to that BBC page by clicking through one of your doctored search pages, even if DoubleClick aren’t one of your advertising networks, you can now link that user’s DoubleClick identifier to your own one for that user. You now get to track them across all websites that use DoubleClick, which I believe is a lot.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting the link to ww2.formwize now returns..


Someone watching this thread very very carefully and removing what they can from sight fast..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander has got the 10000 spot ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm

"Web creator rejects net tracking

The creator of the web has said consumers need to be protected against systems which can track their activity on the internet. Sir Tim Berners-Lee told BBC News he would change his internet provider if it introduced such a system.
...
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/21.jpg Sir Tim Berners-Lee has fears over the future of the internet

...
"

a link to the official BT Phorm Gifted DPI (Deep Packet Inspection/interception)device network Gif showing clearly that you have no choice in having all your datastreams intercepted, collected, collated, processed.

and finally at some point later, any data they deem Valuable from this wiretap, is anonymised,and sent to the Phorm Unlawful "Derivative work" without paying you for the use of your copyrighted Unique datastream weather you Opt-in or not.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at..._diagram70.gif

it clearly shows, and there is no other choice given to you.
all your data Must pass through the Interception device.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34524675

it clearly shows they place an Unlawful cookie on your machine,store data on your machine, and retrieve data from your machine, and using your computer resources without your explicit informed consent if you refuse or otherwise opt-out of this ISP/Phorm wiretap (DPI, aka "Layer 7" network switches).

pecr_reference
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...part2_1206.pdf
clearly shows this is against the legal statute #3951

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

July 16th - Protest at the Barbican Centre

On July 16th 2008 there will be a protest rally at The Barbican Centre (The Barbican Theatre) in London. The purpose of the event is to protest against plans by BT Group PLC, Virgin Media and Car Phone Warehouse to deploy intrusive technology across their broadband networks for the purpose of profiling the behaviour of their customers which is then sold to Phorm Inc. (formerly 121Media) and used for their Open Internet Exchange (OIX) service.

You can read updates regarding the event on the following web page:

https://nodpi.org/category/events/
How it works?

Phorm Inc have signed exclusive contracts with Virgin Media, BT Group PLC and Car Phone Warehouse (TalkTalk) to install Layer 7 network switches within the core broadband networks in the UK. Without getting too technical the system (branded as WebWise) intercepts every single web based communication you initiate in your browser unless they are encrypted - which most are not.

It then inserts software cookies on to your computer for the purpose of gathering behavioural statistics based on the web pages you view; it also makes a copy of every web page you view as it is being sent to your PC and builds a list of key words based on the contents of the web page.

This type of behavioural profiling is very rich data and can be used to determine many things about your life and who you are such as:

1. Topics you are interested in
2. Your Political Opinions
3. Your Health
4. Your Financial Status
5. Your Sexual Preferences
6. Where you live
7. When you are or are not at home
8. Your Investments
9. Who you communicate with
10. What you type on web forums or social network sites

This type of information is very useful for advertising companies as it allows them to target you with commercial advertising when you visit web pages. However this type of information is also protected by many laws within the UK and EU because it is classed as personal information which most people believe should be private. For example, do you really want advertising companies to know what investments you have or the contents of your emails?

You can read more about the issues surrounding this technology by reading the other pages on this web site and following some of the links in the right hand margin.
Event Details

Date : 16th July 2008

Time : 10:00am - 5:00pm

Place: Barbican Centre, Silk Street, London. EC2Y 8DS

Directions

https://nodpi.org/images/maps/barbican.png


We will be gathering outside the main entrance for the majority of the day. The best route to the main entrance is from the barbican tube, but go right to the end of Beech street and turn right as per the map.
Purpose

The purpose of the protest is twofold:

1. To raise public awareness on the issues surrounding behavioural advertising and threats it places on privacy.
2. To present the City of London Police with a case file based on covert trials carried out by BT and Phorm (then 121Media) in 2006/2007.

The Covert Trials

In 2006 and 2007 Bt and Phorm (then 121Media) carried out two covert trials of this technology (called PageSense in 2006, ProxySense in 2007 and WebWise in the present) which means they did not seek the consent of their customers. These trials constituted criminal and civil offenses under various laws. You can read more information about this on the following web page:

https://nodpi.org/2008/06/04/bt-covert-trials-in-2006-the-facts-about-pagesense/

And for the legally minded, you can read my legal analysis of the covert trials here (PDF):

https://nodpi.org/documents/phorm_paper.pdf
How Can You Help?

Obviously the easiest way for people to help is to turn up for the protest event and help us to spread the word about the dangers and legal issues surrounding this technology.

If you have a web page or you use web based forums and social network sites you can help by placing one of the banners available at https://nodpi.org/gallery/ on your web pages and linking them to https://nodpi.org/events.

Alexander Hanff